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Data State of the Game - 09/05/2011 (Gym Announcement Post #53, Pay Day HotFix in OP)

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We'll prolly have E4 outside of Gyms but I just wanted to post this up:

Chills in Combinations:

Say you run into a Chill + Protect combo staving off an attack that costs the Protect user 28 Energy.

One method would be to subtract the energy reduction from the chill directly from the combination's cost.

E.g. 28 - 12 = 16.

Now the 16 is multiplied by the 1.5x combo cost, to become 24.

This is the aggregate energy cost, because the Chill is factored into the move already. It has already had its intended effect, so it's not subtracting 24 from whatever the Pokemon's energy was +12, it's subtracting 24 from the Pokemon's current energy stock. E.g. The Pokemon doesn't get the Chill benefit twice: Once as a reduction of the combination's total energy cost and once as a full 12 EN Increase; it gets it once, which is either as a reduction in the attack or as an immediate increase to apply against the boosted cost of Protect. Otherwise there's never a time not to combine a Chill into any combination, since it would not only cause a negative energy cost, it'd also boost the energy again. (For example if Protect only cost 7 EN, under the calculation The Pokemon would gain 5 EN from the combo and then another 12 after the fact.)

An alternative calculation would be to apply the chill immediately (Pokemon's EN +12) and then multiply the cost to Protect (24) by 1.5x, which is 36. The first method is more efficient for the Pokemon using it, but as a rule I'd prefer the latter as it's both easier to follow and makes it only worthwhile for fairly inexpensive attacks.
 
Can I ask why is Chill allowed to be used in combos?, Chill is supposed to be a relaxing move, a move where the pokemon kind of sits down to recover some energy, combos are big powerful explosions when the pokemon has to use a lot of energy to use two moves in half the time, the two have completely opposite effects and I think are too far from each other to be allowed to perform together, bar very few moves (Harder, Calm Mind, Rest?,...) I think Chill shouldn't be allowed to be used in a combination
 
ATTENTION

The Registration Thread for Gym Teams will go up October 1st. Please have all of your Gym prep ready by that date, for we will choose candidates and types shortly thereafter.

-ASB Moderators
 
Is it me, or is Wish overpriced as far as energy goes? I think that the energy cost modifier should at least be the same as stuff like recover (Max HP/10 instead of Max HP/7.5), especially since you don't get the effects immediately.
 
You have to remember that Wish actually heals more than Recover and co. do; see below table.

Total HP | HP Gain (Recover) | HP Gain (Wish)
80 | 20 | 20
90 | 20 | 23
100 | 20 | 25
110 | 20 | 28
120 | 20 | 30
125 | 20 | 31
130 | 20 | 33
135 | 20 | 34
140 | 20 | 35

It's fairly clear that Wish heals more, which warrants the higher energy cost.
 
Is there any point of Combinations of the same move IE Flamethrower+Flamethrower? They aren't creative, and serve as a single powerful move, with recharge.

Also can we PLEASE Define how calculations are rounded?!?!
 
Arcanite said:
Is there any point of Combinations of the same move IE Flamethrower+Flamethrower? They aren't creative, and serve as a single powerful move, with recharge.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that energy-wise, you're still shooting yourself in the foot by using them. While I'm not 100% in favor either, I can tolerate their presence.
 
Arcanite said:
Is there any point of Combinations of the same move IE Flamethrower+Flamethrower? They aren't creative, and serve as a single powerful move, with recharge.
Click to expand...

Using combinations of the same moves can be nice because it combines the effect chances, potentially giving you a 60% chance to burn or paralyze or something.

However, I actually think that combinations of the same move cost too much energy to the point where they are only useful as a last-ditch move. I suggest changing the energy cost to Base Energy Cost*2.5, as with the current scheme, it costs (7+7+4)*2.25=41 Energy for a Base 20 Power move (like Ice beam+Ice Beam), which is a stupidly high amount of energy. BEC*2.5 yields 18 Energy for a 20 BP move, something that is much more fair and in line with combos of different moves. An Ice Beam+Thunderbolt Combo also has 20 BP, but costs 21 Energy, which is fair when you consider that by combining different moves, you can change the effects, accuracy and type of the combination, whereas with by using the same move with itself, the only things that gets buffed are BP and Effect chances (not to mention that accuracy gets hurt if the move has less than 100 Accuracy).
 
I tought the reason of the high energy cost was that they uncreative and only used to increase BP (most people didn't even think about effect chance), and many times it's used to skip a bigger energy penalty (i've seen it happen were using Xmove^2 costs less energy than continue to spam Xmove thanks to it interrupting the chain of energy increase)
 
And oftentimes, when their secondary effect is actually GOOD, it's occasionally more useful to just use the individual moves repeatedly...or just use something designed to inflict the status.
 
Actually, if the move that you're using has a secondary effect, it's actually more worth it to combo it with itself. For example, if you combo Shadow Ball + Shadow Ball, you have a 40% to reduce the opponent's Special Defense by two stages, whereas you only have a 36% to lower the opponent's Special Defense by at least one stage if you use it twice (4% to lower SpD by two stages).

EDIT: I was always acting under the impression that you would get double the stage drop/boost. Firstly, an Acid Armor + Acid Armor should give +4 defense, it's simply intuition. Also, a Close Combat + Close Combat combo with only -1 Def and SpD? That seems pretty good (of course, that could also be a reason for you to be using the combo in the first place).
 
Engineer Pikachu said:
Actually, if the move that you're using has a secondary effect, it's actually more worth it to combo it with itself. For example, if you combo Shadow Ball + Shadow Ball, you have a 40% to reduce the opponent's Special Defense by two stages, whereas you only have a 36% to lower the opponent's Special Defense by at least one stage if you use it twice (4% to lower SpD by two stages).
Click to expand...

Really? I was told that damaging moves that had a secondary effect chance did not have their effects boosted at all, meaning shadow ball + shadow ball is just a 40% chance to lower special defence by 1 stage, not 2.
 
Alright, obligatory proposal that will get crushed and get someone to propose a better solution:

Pay Day: I dislike this for two reasons. First off, it is a very cheap and easy means of obtaining counters with no time investment. Since time is fundamentally money in ASB, this pushes the intended purpose of development over time and a fairly slow influx of TC.

Secondly, it creates battles that have no intention of being competitive at all (use pay day on Scizor! Come on, keep doing it!)

I personally see how the above battle is any less of an uncompetitive counter farm than a street brawl, where the player who does it is immensely rewarded. Therefore, I have a proposal:

Pay Day will only earn a TC bonus if the battle is won or tied (the Pokemon left standing would faint from other factors before the end of the round to make it easier to collect Pay Day bonuses). This means I can't Pay Day spam a Scizor and still come out ahead, and I might only be able to do it once or twice in a battle in order to still win. I believe this also works well with in-game precedent, as the move only has an effect if any prize money could be claimed in the first place (victory).

While I understand the logic of "I need it to afford items," I want to say I would rather have a certainty that my opponent will be playing decently to keep things entertaining than a few more items running around.

Just my two cents.

/me runs from the hoard of Meowth trainers.
 
As a Pay Day abuser I agree its a bit much, but I'm not sure I like your proposal, how about just decreasing the limit of TC to be gained? Like I mean a lot, say reduce it to 1 or 2 instead of 10.
 
I am in agreement with the sentiments on Pay Day. If we can't use "mirror battles" as a counter farm etc, I don't really see how this is any different. Either of the solutions above sounds like a viable fix, or perhaps even a combination of the two.
 
Son_of_Shadoo said:
I am in agreement with the sentiments on Pay Day. If we can't use "mirror battles" as a counter farm etc, I don't really see how this is any different. Either of the solutions above sounds like a viable fix, or perhaps even a combination of the two.
Click to expand...

^Seconding. What if Pay Day's cap was set to the number of TC each trainer would normally earn from the battle? This sets a maximum of 4 additional TC, and means you can really only use it twice in shorter battles, where it will be most abused.
 
Wait a sec. First off, pay day is good as it is (I have a meowth, how does that make me biased). Second, Dummy's idea is good but that means in a 6v6 singles match a trainer would still get 8 TC max. So here's what I propose.

TC earnt without pay day.........Pay Day usuage cap.
2 TC....................................... 5
3 TC........................................4
4 TC........................................3

That means the most any trainer can earn from a single match is 7 and even then, they still could lose the match, so here's another rule to go on with that.

Pay Day is banned from training matches.

So people can't keep abusing training matchs to make themself rich. At least if that's in effect they will get some sort of trade-off; which more loses as you can't expect to do too many KO's Pay Day SPAMing.
 
i think that the cap for pay day should be equal to the total number of pokemon fighting in a match, so a 1v1 can only yield 2 extra TC, while actually investing the large amount of time in a 6v6 will still yield the normal amount of TC (which should still be capped at 10 maximum). That way the extra amount of TC you get is more proportional to the amount of time and effort put into the fight.
 
Metal Bagon said:
Wait a sec. First off, pay day is good as it is (I have a meowth, how does that make me biased). Second, Dummy's idea is good but that means in a 6v6 singles match a trainer would still get 8 TC max. So here's what I propose.

TC earnt without pay day.........Pay Day usuage cap.
2 TC....................................... 5
3 TC........................................4
4 TC........................................3

That means the most any trainer can earn from a single match is 7 and even then, they still could lose the match, so here's another rule to go on with that.

Pay Day is banned from training matches.

So people can't keep abusing training matchs to make themself rich. At least if that's in effect they will get some sort of trade-off; which more loses as you can't expect to do too many KO's Pay Day SPAMing.
Click to expand...

The only issue I can see with this is that a 1 vs 1 Singles match is not, by definition, "training." The match will most likely end in 2 rounds if one player is spamming Pay Day, meaning you still get 7 TC for two rounds of work. Also, my idea actually reduces Pay Day's benefits more than yours, except in the case of 4 TC matches, which, in my experience, hardly ever finish, unless they're Brawls, which typically have a good chance of having your Pay Dayer killed off before the end of the first round. Maybe it would be better to keep 6 vs 6's to 7 TC, but I think my idea is probably a little more balanced for players without a Pay Dayer (like me; I'm training Grass-types, and the only Grass-type that gets Pay Day is Hoppip, who doesn't fit well with my team- I guess I'm a bit biased).

tl;dr I prefer my idea. Sorry if the wording came off as harsh.
 
^
I like Dummy's poporsal better since it leaves Pay Day usable, while not letting it become an spammable way to become rich (altough i just realized it's effect 2 days ago, so much money could have been made...)
 
I personally love Rediamond's solution the most. It follows in-game precedent (in this case, mechanics) and is quite simple. In addition, it makes Pay Day much harder to spam; a 4 BAP Normal move won't be hitting very hard in comparison to the wide variety of powerful attacking moves that almost every Pokemon has. However, it also doesn't nerf Pay Day to the point where it becomes unusable; you'll just be able to use it once or twice.
 
First of all, I tremendously support Rediamond's proposal. I just had a training battle where my opponent used Pay Day more than attacking me. That's ridiculous.

Second, how will the process for determining the final two gym candidates work? I know my WLT personally is based off of a lot of training battles with vastly inferior Pokemon...
 
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