np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[Sir Azelf]

And we have to consider the fact that Switcher teams fall pretty easily in practice, especially when Entry hazards is just one of their many problems.

Not really considering i got to #1 and im sure many others have gotten high on the ladder with them too. If you have some way to get rid of hazards they can be a nightmare to face. Most people who use them suck and cant play them correctly, mostly ladder scrubs who steal/copy teams it seems lol.

Also fuck smashpassing. -_-

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I think Donphan level 1 may be legal due Pomeg Glitch, but pokemon obtained only by with Pomeg Glitch should be illegal if there is no other way to get them.

No, if a glitch can be done in-game with no hacks, then it should be allowed (the Mimic glitch being an exception because dear Lord). Lv1 Donphan is illegal because, while the glitch does exist in DPPt, it doesn't work the same way it did in RSE, so Donphan has to be lv5 minimum and can't have Ice Shard.

 

[SJCrew]

The only 'switcher' teams I've seen were ones with Volt Switch and U-turn on everything, which were usually terrible. Are we talking about just using Rotom-W and Scizor? If so, I'm pretty sure "Switcher Team" would extend to almost every team.

Same complaints, different page. You guys need to broaden you horizons.

 

[Jaetheho]

landorus and scarfrachi are also good u-tuners, along with hydreigon.

 

[Drifloon]

Switcher teams pretty much consist of CB Scizor, Rotom-W, and Scarf Landorus w/spikes support.

 

[Pocket]

lol so it's not just me who have problems with the switcher trio.

Setting up SR definitely helps, especially if Rotom-W is choiced. Some risky tactics include forcing the opponent to use a move other than U-turn / Volt Switch.

Ie Skarmory vs Rotom-W:

You switch out Skarmory for Jirachi, Rotom-W Volt-Switches to Landorus. There are 2 scenarios that could happen:
1) Landorus U-turns to scout switch-in, but Jirachi stays in and Thunder Rotom-W
2) Landorus EQs, Jirachi faints - you switch in LumDDNite and start setting up.

It's pretty risky, though, and it's especially annoying against Rotom-W, which can throw out random Wisps or Trick.

In the end I find myself resorting to Gastrodon to obstruct successive switch moves. Switching Gastrodon can be just as predictable, but its probably a lot safer than the above scenario.

 

[Jaetheho]

what do you guys prefer?

specs rotom or scarf rotom?

oh and what are other viable voltswitchers? maybe... lol.... cobalion?

 

[-Tsunami-]

what do you guys prefer?

specs rotom or scarf rotom?

oh and what are other viable voltswitchers? maybe... lol.... cobalion?

I prefer defensive because I like the ability to switch moves, but since that's not an option, I pick Specs Rotom. I like the sheer power it has, especially in rain; I can always get another poke to scarf anyway. The best Volt Switcher other than Rotom is probably Forretress, but people don't really use that to damage switch-ins. Other than that, I'd have to say the best is Magnezone / Thundurus.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Volt Switch Cobalion's an interesting, yet difficult-to-imagine prospect. Naturally, players would rather go the straightforward route and use either Life Orb or setup movesets.

As for the Choice item on Rotom-W, I find many opponents to rely Choice Scarf for the purpose of revenge killing. Even with Leftovers, Rotom-W can hit naturally hard, so it's easy slapping a Scarf on it, especially when you can simply Trick any troublesome Pokemon in your way.

On a Switcher team, either that or a defensive set is the way to go for most players.

And yes, I know Switcher teams have competitive value (especially since people like sir Azelf got on top with them), but I personally find the lack of real powerhouses hampers them against me (we're quite accustomed to the presence of Scizor and Rotom-W, almost to the point where these kind of teams aren't "Switcher").

 

[Jaetheho]

is baton pass a vaid option for a switch team? sure it doesnt damage, but it seems cool.

maybe celebi? (maybe celbi gets u-turn idk)


OH miensho is also great on a switch te

 

[-Tsunami-]

is baton pass a vaid option for a switch team? sure it doesnt damage, but it seems cool.

maybe celebi? (maybe celbi gets u-turn idk)


OH miensho is also great on a switch te

Eh, Baton Pass should really only be used for: a) Smashpass b) dedicated baton pass teams 3)when the pokemon has no other moves that are better on it than Baton Pass (ie: Specs Jolteon in 4th Gen).
Celebi gets U-Turn, and so does Mienshao. And the whole switching thing kind of defeats the purpose of baton pass as the boosts you get will just be nullified when you use Volt Switch / U-Turn. The attacks themselves are also supposed to apply a bit of pressure on the opponent, so I don't think Baton Pass would work too well.

 

[Jaetheho]

yea i was implying u turn mienshao.

i think baton pass is pretty good because switch teams are all about momentum.
im going to use espeon as an example.

you send out espeon on a pokemon, force it out as you baton pass.
now you can kill the certain ezpeon counter and you gain more momentum.

 

[BTzz]

I use Baton Pass on stuff like Espeon/Celebi just to avoid getting pursuit trapped.

 

[Jaetheho]

why arent people original these days? sigh..

any luck with the sand rush dog (shoot just forgot the name)

a set of
-return
-crunch
-fire fang
-ice fang

seems like a good partner for excadrill, killing threats like skarmory, bronzong and gliscor.

edit: stoutland. durr.

 

[Jaetheho]

howl>work up.

with +1 and lie orb, superior coverage, i think he could become the little helper of excadrill.

maybe

4 hp 252 atk 252 spd
@ life orb
nature: jolly/adamant

-howl
-return
-fire fang/wild bolt
-ice fang

 

[LCampoy8]

why arent people original these days? sigh..

any luck with the sand rush dog (shoot just forgot the name)

a set of
-return
-crunch
-fire fang
-ice fang

seems like a good partner for excadrill, killing threats like skarmory, bronzong and gliscor.

edit: stoutland. durr.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3157500&postcount=27
lol long time Stoutland user here. I've been using him since this game came out and still use him today. He is quite good and very underrated.

also he cant really do anything to bronzong or skarmory

 

[BTzz]

Rest + 3 attacks Vaporeon (Hydro Pump, HP Grass, Ice Beam, Rest) is actually pretty good (under rain of course). Ferrothorn walls it to hell and back, but I guess that's what teamates are for. The real selling point for me is Hydration. For such a hard hitter, being immune to status is awsome. The ability to rest off LO damage is also great.

 

[Jaetheho]

i used the specs one and a weakened ferrothorn is 2hkoed. definitely strong.

 

[Katakiri]

Had to be done.


Vaporeon's always been a fun Specs user in Rain. That 110 Base Sp.Attack is not be forgotten. I'll have to give Life Orb Rest a spin. It sounds promising.

 

[ginganinja]

This argument has been posted before and its been pretty easily shot down. Feel free to look back through the old threads to find all the arguments but quite clearly, you severely underrate Lugias potential.

Firstly, the Great Wall Lugia set (which iirc is something like Reflect/Roost/WW/Ice Beam) pretty much walls most of the metagame. Its something ridiculous such as it being able to PP stall a Tyranitar without much trouble. With Roost good fucking luck wearing it down and in all seriousness, with Excadrill being so fucking common in the tier, its not hard to get rid of SR anyway.

Lugia does not have to run a Great Wall set. Remember Sub Roost Zapdos of Gen 4? Lugia can run a set just as deadly ouspeeding what it needs to and comfortably PP stalling/phasing things around. Trickroom found it a success in Ubers and I suspect it would be tough to beat in OU.

Lastly, despite what you say, Lugia could run a CM set with a fair amount of success. Aeroblast would smack quite a few things pretty hard after a CM boost and it still has a coverage option to go with it. Seriously, the idea of lugia being in OU is fucking retarded and its not going to happen.

 

[Erebyssial]

As you can see, Lugia is far from broken.

yeah because a few lines of thoughtless theorymon is clearly enough evidence that an Uber of 4 generations is "far" from broken..

Don't start the Lugia discussions again, its SubRoost and Calm Mind sets are not welcome in OU, period. And why would you even want a massive suspect like Lugia dropping down when the metagame still needs some serious help?

 

[GtM]

If stuff like Kyurem's BL, I think it might actually be worth re-evaluating Lugia's position. Out of all the Ubers, it's probably the least threatening in the OU metagame.

On the other hand, it has ridiculous speed for a defensive wall and two great abilities, which might push it over the line. It can simply use Roost to outspeed and stall out almost all users of Stone Edge, except Scarf Terrakion and Tyranitar. Non-STAB Rock Slides aren't doing shit (even Adamant LO Excadrill can't 2HKO without Stealth Rock) Many users of Electric and Ice attacks are also outsped and can have their effectiveness nullified by Roost.

Most importantly, Lugia would probably be an overcentralising influence. If you don't have a pokemon on your team that can reliably take it down, regardless of it having a faster Roost than you, you're going to get stalled. Let's not even begin on Multiscale.

 

[ginganinja]

o.k look anyone who seriously thinks Lugia should be OU check out these two posts which both have some impact on the discussion

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3579346&postcount=2116
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3578760&postcount=2089

Then, check out the next like 5 pages of this thread starting here (since I cbf linking to every post and going back time and time again finding all these arguements)
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3446403&highlight=Lugia&page=83

Go read all of that, let it sink in, and then stop posting "Lugia is OU" arguments.

 

[marilli]

I usually don't like playing ping-pong with a bad argument, but Lugia in OU is pretty outrageous. I mean, it's not all about Lugia--your argument/logic is pretty shady even to a noob like me.

CM Reuniclus will always beat CM Lugia because Reuniclus is immune to passive damage while Lugia is not.

That's not how CM wars work. Aeroblast has high crit rate, and let's see if uninvested Reuniclus Psychic/Focus Blast will not be scratching it at all even with more CM's. Aeroblast crit? gG. Not to mention, Lugia can run a Roar-CM set a la Latias to rub it in your face.

Any set running more than 2 support moves is stopped cold by any any decently fast Taunter or Prankster+Taunt user.

Let's see, the most common taunt users, Gliscor/Skarm/Jellicent, has no chance in hell of outspeeding Lugia and its 110 speed. Thundurus/Tornadus can't really switch into Ice Beams on top of the SR damage.

Any fast Sub user will also use it as a setup bait. Un-STAB'd Dragon Tail coming off 90 base attack will fail to break most Subs, losing its phazing properties.

So you use Whirlwind instead. Problems?

All these sets are easily stopped by any Trick-Scarf user, including and especially Rotom-W who resists any attacking move Lugia commonly carries. Even without a scarf set it can just hit Lugia hard with STAB Electric attacks and can exploit their base HP differences with Plain Split.

You can use Trick Scarf only once. If you miss your target, then GG--especially if that's "your (only) way" of dealing with Lugia. Also, Lugia outspeeds Rotom-W, Roosts away damage while PP stalling Hydro Pump like a baws. Or it can just Toxic and gG. Of course, it's not always going to have Toxic, Roost, and speed & special defense investments all at the same time. Even then, you have teammates to cover your weaks. It's not like you're trying to 6-0 with a wall. That would be painful for both sides. The defensive characteristic of Uber states that if it "walls a significant portion of the metagame." If it walls Ttar, then it's walling a host of other Physical threats.

Unlike ubers, Lugia needs to run max speed EVs + speed boosting nature in OU, which significantly lowers its walling potential.

Unlike Ubers, OU isn't full of outrageous powerhouses, which significantly heightens its walling potential.

And reachzero's post that ginganinja linked to sums it all up, really. It's like saying just smacking a fighting-type on a otherwise blissey-weak team and thinking all your problems are solved--it's not. It's not like those mons have a 100% free switch-in (Reflect/Toxic), and Lugia will have a teammate that covers it.

 

[shrang]

I read them and I'm not stopping, if anything it makes my arguments even stronger.

No, it just makes you look completely stupid.

Stall teams are murdered by Reuniclus no if's and's and but's, a pokemon that Lugia is completely unable to touch.
CM Reuniclus will always beat CM Lugia because Reuniclus is immune to passive damage while Lugia is not.

Aaaaaand... Reuniclus is hurting Lugia, how? +6 Psychic is probably the best thing you can muster, and you are more likely than not to be PP stalled out of them before you land a crit.

Any set running more than 2 support moves is stopped cold by any any decently fast Taunter or Prankster+Taunt user. Any fast Sub user will also use it as a setup bait. Un-STAB'd Dragon Tail coming off 90 base attack will fail to break most Subs, losing its phazing properties.

Lugia has Whirlwind, so you're going to have to toss up on using Taunt or Sub. This is not to mention that Lugia can run both Dragon Tail AND Whirlwind and not lose anything significant anyway.

The mono-attacking set with Aeroblast is a utter joke because of the ridiculously low PP that attack has. Sure it can use something else like Ice Beam or Surf, but a mono-attacking Lugia is plain bad because it will always have a (commonly used) perfect counter.

So you're basing Lugia's abilities on a shitty set? I dare you to go play some Ubers, play trickroom or someone like that using Lugia and then tell me Lugia belongs in OU. Go on.

EDIT: Actually, what are you planning to use to beat that Aeroblast Lugia? Low PP isn't that important, since Lugia is only going to attack when it'll kill things. Otherwise, it can just Substitute and Calm Mind up while stalling the crap out of you. I'd actually be perfectly happy with replacing Aeroblast with HP Flying if I were really concerned about Aeroblast's PP. It really doesn't make that much of a difference.

All these sets are easily stopped by any Trick-Scarf user, including and especially Rotom-W who resists any attacking move Lugia commonly carries. Even without a scarf set it can just hit Lugia hard with STAB Electric attacks and can exploit their base HP differences with Plain Split.

Try Tricking through Substitute. It really works. In fact, tell me how you would beat a stall team using this Lugia (straight from the analysis):

Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD
Nature: Impish
- Substitute
- Roost
- Dragon Tail
- Toxic

Unlike ubers, Lugia needs to run max speed EVs + speed boosting nature in OU, which significantly lowers its walling potential.

Why would Lugia need to run max Speed? What justifies Lugia running max Speed? Terrakion? Lugia beats it easily anyway. I'd be perfectly content on running the EV spread used above, it still outspeeds your Jolly Tyranitar and stuff like that without any hassle at all.

Why are you people so scared of Lugia? It's been a year, you should be able to handle it with ease with your standard team in OU (unless you run 3 or more fighting types for whatever reason).
Seriously, Lugia is nowhere as dangerous in practice as it appears on paper.
If after a proper testing period it's recognized as broken then I'll gladly eat my words.

Actually, I'm more inclined to think the opposite to be true. Lugia doesn't actually look that dangerous on paper. However, actually playing against a competent Lugia user will change your mind immediately.