np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

Tangrowth beats that set so badly. Seriously, if you don't have Tspikes up, you're going to cry when you see him in the team viewer.

And I sincerely hope you're not running Lum Berry with SubRoost. Lum Berry and Substitute are redundant and Sand won't allow you to keep Multiscale going.

i was talking about two sets, in response to the above poster saying that dnite wasn't broken. afaik subroost with defensive investment walks all over tangrowth, as even hp ice will struggle to break the subs on a roost. i do acknowledge that lum dd will cry against tangrowth, but that's a really rare counter...

edit: @ pip skarm takes heavy damage from fire punch and heatran takes heavy damage from EQ or even + 1 outrage, despite being resisted.

skarm takes 61.07 - 71.85% from fire punch at + 1

sp.def heatran takes 34.97 - 41.45% from + 1 outrage, which, given, makes it a better 'counter' but that's still not looking that nice with no reliable recovery!

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

No Sandslash is really slow, anything with a scarf over 103 speed should be able to outspeed it, and it has only a base 100 attack, as opposed to excadrill's base 135. At best I would see it in lower OU, it might have a chance of being banned in UU though.

 

[Spork]

an exception for an excepcional scenario

In what ways specifically is it exceptional? Are you saying there aren't any major parallels between the "Kingdra Metagame" and the "Excadrill Metagame"? I understand that A'sP was mostly an emergency solution for an extremely volatile metagame but really we have all the time in the world to correct it.

We may discuss undoing it and testing each Swimmer, banning a lot/all of them, banning Swift Swim (best idea imo, but who am I but a single player) or banning Drizzle altogether

Then that's absolutely what should happen, no arguments there.

but we won't do any more complex bans, specially for a SINGLE pokémon

You probably could argue that Kingdra was the only truly broken SwSw'er if you wanted, and Excadrill ISN'T the only SR'er, however crappy Stoutland may be.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Sandslash will be an awesome option for Sand teams... just like Victreebel is for Sun. And that's it. It doesn't come even close to Excadrill, but it has really interesting options shared with the mole and also a few quirks it didn't have (Stone Edge, Mach Punch neutrality, huh Counter I guess).

Man, Cacturne should have gotten Sand Rush...

In what ways specifically is it exceptional? Are you saying there aren't any major parallels between the "Kingdra Metagame" and the "Excadrill Metagame"? I understand that A'sP was mostly an emergency solution for an extremely volatile metagame but really we have all the time in the world to correct it.

A metagame that has only started and the community divided in people witch-hunting Drizzle and people not sure whether to ban Kingdra/Swimmers, Swift Swim or everything. And that's besides the fear of a cascade of bans after a possible Drizzle removal.

EDIT-- Oh nvm I see you agree with me about it being an emergency solution when it was proposed. I'm not saying it's excepcional now, trust me.

You probably could argue that Kingdra was the only truly broken SwSw'er if you wanted, and Excadrill ISN'T the only SR'er, however crappy Stoutland may be.

Many have also argued Ludicolo and Kabutops were broken, or that they weren't broken alone, but together, or that banning the three of them wouldn't do any good because Omastar/Floatzel/Qwilfish would step up to their spots without much work...

I don't know if you were here during December/January, but Round 2 was a real shitstorm, and Aldaron's idea was the best we could have had back then. Whether we should change it or not is up for debate, I guess, but not adding new combo bans.

 

[Katakiri]

Okay, why has Excadrill been banned instead of Sand Rush + Sand Stream?

Mustache Dog & Excadrill Jr. (Sr.?) aren't all that good. Sandslash (unreleased) can run the exact same moveset as Excadrill but is out-paced by all Base 105+ Scarf Pokemon (Meinshao & Zoroark's speed tier) and it has a pretty sad 100 Base Attack.

 

[Spork]

The most common scarfer with a speed above 105 (of which there are very, very few) is Terrakion, who can't OHKO with Jolly CC anyway. Of course the metagame could adapt to allow stuff like Scarfmies and Scarf Virizions, 'specially after the Exca ban, if Sandslash becomes a huge threat, but it does seem a bit unlikely. I quite like Sandslash, and although obviously he does lack power, one could capitalise on that superior physical bulk and arguably better phsyically defensive typing...

Anyway I kinda think the argument that moustache dog and sandslash suck is a little bit irrelevant anyway... So what if there's 3-5 broken SwSw'ers and only 1 broken SR'er? It doesn't change the fact that not all the SwSw'ers are broken (Luvdisc? Lumineon? Stuff like Floatzel and Qwilfish could be legitimately good and not broken, improving the meta), so what is effectively a SwSw ban makes little sense when there is no similar SR ban. If Excadrill is banned, Kingdra-Ludicolo-Kabutops need banning as well imo, instead of that clunky complex ban.

 

[SJCrew]

i was talking about two sets, in response to the above poster saying that dnite wasn't broken. afaik subroost with defensive investment walks all over tangrowth, as even hp ice will struggle to break the subs on a roost.

HP Ice still breaks your Subs as you DD until he gets an opportunity to Leech Seed, where you'll never be able to win. You'll also need at least 4 Dragon Dances in order to 2HKO. Good luck.

 

[Pocket]

I agree with Spork that ideally we should've tested individual swift swimmers before complex banning, which I thought was hasty. If 5+ Swift Swimmers were found broken, this conclusion would've justified Aldaron's Proposal much more than theorymoning. However, it is arguably the better option than the other alternative on the ballot: banning Drizzle altogether.

The scope between Aldaron's Proposal and Sandstream + Sand Rush is considerable, and you should make sure to note it. Multiple Swift Swimmers, or more realistically Drizzle, was at stake in the former; Excadrill is at stake in the latter.

 

[MetaGross66]

Banning Drizzle would have been the best solution. We have pulled too many strings just to keep it in this metagame (banning thundurus, swsw+drizzle ban, and manaphy). Were all these casualties worth it considering it's still very centralizing?

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

HP Ice still breaks your Subs as you DD until he gets an opportunity to Leech Seed, where you'll never be able to win. You'll also need at least 4 Dragon Dances in order to 2HKO. Good luck.

yeah, i just went to do the calc, all but 252 / 252 careful has its sub broken by non-invested hp ice; point taken.

 

[Katakiri]

The most common scarfer with a speed above 105 (of which there are very, very few) is Terrakion, who can't OHKO with Jolly CC anyway. Of course the metagame could adapt to allow stuff like Scarfmies and Scarf Virizions, 'specially after the Exca ban, if Sandslash becomes a huge threat, but it does seem a bit unlikely. I quite like Sandslash, and although obviously he does lack power, one could capitalise on that superior physical bulk and arguably better phsyically defensive typing...

There were only a few BECAUSE Excadrill was OU. He made Scarfs entirely pointless.

Anyway I kinda think the argument that moustache dog and sandslash suck is a little bit irrelevant anyway... So what if there's 3-5 broken SwSw'ers and only 1 broken SR'er? It doesn't change the fact that not all the SwSw'ers are broken (Luvdisc? Lumineon? Stuff like Floatzel and Qwilfish could be legitimately good and not broken, improving the meta), so what is effectively a SwSw ban makes little sense when there is no similar SR ban. If Excadrill is banned, Kingdra-Ludicolo-Kabutops need banning as well imo, instead of that clunky complex ban.

Swift Swim was broken because it gave Water-types a huge power boost to their STAB moves on top of a +2 speed boost.

Water types that weren't at all broken with Swift Swim: Golduck, Mantine, Luvdisc, Lumineon, Seismitoad

Pokemon that were at least moderately broken: Poliwrath, Omastar, Kabutops, Kingdra, Ludicolo, Gorebyss, Huntail, Floatzel, Relicanth?, Carracosta

The entire list of Sand Rush Pokemon: Excadrill, Sandslash, Stoutland

We banned Swift Swim + Drizzle because otherwise we'd either have to ban around 10 Pokemon or an entire playstyle. But with Sand Rush there's only ONE Pokemon that's broken with it. There's absolutely no call to ban Stoutland and Sandslash isn't even released yet. (And it's VERY underwhelming in DW OU as it is, although the DoubleDrill Sweeping core was cute.)

If that's not enough, here's why Sandslash will never be broken:
- Base 100 Attack
- Out-sped by Choice Scarfers
- Needs a Life Orb to OKHO anything (Dead in 10 Turns)
- Cannot OHKO Bulky Pokemon at +2 (+2 Jolly LO EQ vs Vaporeon: 77.3% - 91.4%)
- Weak to ALL Priority and 2 of them hit Sandslash Super Effectively
- Is a completely free switch-in for Scizor when it Swords Dances (CB BP does 51.4% - 60.6%)
- *Insert any issue Excadrill had minus SE Mach Punches*

 

[Thorhammer]

I don't recall Poliwrath, Omastar, Gorebyss, Huntail, Floatzel, Relicanth, or Carracosta ever being tested or even looked at much at all. Sand Stream + Sand Rush is an illogical ban, but Drizzle + Swift Swim is just as bad. Let's also consider the 15 or so NFEs with Swift Swim that are certainly not broken, even in Drizzle...

Just saying,Specs Starmie hydro pump in rain is already stronger than +3 Manaphy surf on a rainless scenario.

And also choice-locked, inaccurate, and weather-dependent.

I'm in favor of gathering data before making assumptions about how Manaphy and other Pokemon would perform in a given scenario, but that comparison really doesn't prove anything.

 

[Eggbert]

Sandslash doesn't look that bad. Taking 50% from a neutral 130 attack 90 BP CB move is pretty sweet. Luckily sand slash doesn't have the offensive stats or rapid spin that would make it excadrill.

And also, rain is EVERYWHERE now. It was starting to get bad at the end of the suspect round, but now it's just awful. Everyother team I face is drizzle at best. It's ridiculous has easy it is to pull a standard rain template for rain offense and stall and win with little thought to team building (so many RMTs that exemplify rain offense and stall and serve as easy building blocks or clones). We might as well just set drizzle to permanant and let people have room for something over politoed, as that might make the game a little different. Ban politoed and keep manaphy, thundurus, and a better metagame, or keep it and try and cut the rough edges off and get a crude result that isn't any better, ok.

 

[Nelson]

Banning Drizzle would have been the best solution. We have pulled too many strings just to keep it in this metagame (banning thundurus, swsw+drizzle ban, and manaphy). Were all these casualties worth it considering it's still very centralizing?

Totally agreed and it isn't finish yet. It will continue with volcarona in next round.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

I was gone for ONE weekend and they ban the mole and Thundy? D;
Oh well, just means I don't need to invest extra defense on my Bronzong.

I just hope the Uber ban list doesn't get too big...that would be kinda sad and would prove Smogon is getting ban-happy. I hope the bans end here.

 

[Honus]

I was gone for ONE weekend and they ban the mole and Thundy? D;
Oh well, just means I don't need to invest extra defense on my Bronzong.

I just hope the Uber ban list doesn't get too big...that would be kinda sad and would prove Smogon is getting ban-happy. I hope the bans end here.

Smogon doesn't ban things for fun, so the term "ban-happy" would be a misnomer, they're merely trying to create an enjoyable metagame and if banning mons is the only way to do that, then so be it.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Sandslash doesn't look that bad. Taking 50% from a neutral 130 attack 90 BP CB move is pretty sweet. Luckily sand slash doesn't have the offensive stats or rapid spin that would make it excadrill.

And also, rain is EVERYWHERE now. It was starting to get bad at the end of the suspect round, but now it's just awful. Everyother team I face is drizzle at best. It's ridiculous has easy it is to pull a standard rain template for rain offense and stall and win with little thought to team building (so many RMTs that exemplify rain offense and stall and serve as easy building blocks or clones). We might as well just set drizzle to permanant and let people have room for something over politoed, as that might make the game a little different. Ban politoed and keep manaphy, thundurus, and a better metagame, or keep it and try and cut the rough edges off and get a crude result that isn't any better, ok.

Sandslash has rapid spin.

Also drizzle teams are that similar, at best they have the same 3 or 4 pokemon, usually with diferent sets or spreads depending on what the team is actually trying to do and what pokemon they chose. But that can be said for almost any metagame, heck RBY had more similar style teams then we have now, just because a playstyle is centralizing or even if a metagame is, that doesn't mean that its bad.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Smogon doesn't ban things for fun, so the term "ban-happy" would be a misnomer, they're merely trying to create an enjoyable metagame and if banning mons is the only way to do that, then so be it.

Ummm, the term "ban-happy" isn't...well, that's not what I meant when I typed it up. What I meant by "ban-happy" is that people want to ban some things just because they don't like that certain pokemon, even if it's manageable.

 

[New World Order]

Banning Drizzle would have been the best solution. We have pulled too many strings just to keep it in this metagame (banning thundurus, swsw+drizzle ban, and manaphy). Were all these casualties worth it considering it's still very centralizing?

Playstyles > Individual Pokemon

Drizzle is a very welcome addition to OU IMO and it serves as a nerf to sand and sun as well. Although unfortunately, I think sand has taken a gigantic hit, and it'll more often than not just be sand stall now :(

 

[Forsety]

I was gone for ONE weekend and they ban the mole and Thundy? D;
Oh well, just means I don't need to invest extra defense on my Bronzong.

I just hope the Uber ban list doesn't get too big...that would be kinda sad and would prove Smogon is getting ban-happy. I hope the bans end here.

Or prove Gen 5 is extremely overpowered and broken, works both ways.

 

[Pippy]

Playstyles > Individual Pokemon

Drizzle is a very welcome addition to OU IMO and it serves as a nerf to sand and sun as well. Although unfortunately, I think sand has taken a gigantic hit, and it'll more often than not just be sand stall now :(

I don't know about that. Sand offence may still be around, as there's still Landorus, Terrakion, and even TTar who can still abuse SS. Sand offense may just be less common now since you'll actually have to work for it.

 

[Eggbert]

Also drizzle teams are that similar, at best they have the same 3 or 4 pokemon, usually with diferent sets or spreads depending on what the team is actually trying to do and what pokemon they chose. But that can be said for almost any metagame, heck RBY had more similar style teams then we have now, just because a playstyle is centralizing or even if a metagame is, that doesn't mean that its bad.

Playing the same 2/3s of a team isn't bad? Why should I make news teams when I can take Toed / Croak / Ferro / Rotom / x / x or Toed / Chan / Ferro / Tenta / Quag / x and rip most teams apart? Having 14 pokemon in rby wasn't a good thing!

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Or prove Gen 5 is extremely overpowered and broken, works both ways.

Or you know....that people just want to turn this into Gen 4 or whatever Gen they felt wasn't "overpowered".

 

[Pippy]

Playing the same 2/3s of a team isn't bad? Why should I make news teams when I can take Toed / Croak / Ferro / Rotom / x / x or Toed / Chan / Ferro / Tenta / Quag / x and rip most teams apart? Having 14 pokemon in rby wasn't a good thing!

I agree. The metagame starts to get old after you've fought the exact same teams 100's of times. :(

 

[MetaGross66]

Playstyles > Individual Pokemon

Drizzle is a very welcome addition to OU IMO and it serves as a nerf to sand and sun as well.

I understand, but when you lose 2 Pokemon and have to put in place a complex ban to keep a playstyle that proves something....

It does nerf them, but then sand and sun nerf each other as well and sand is nerfed enough by Excadrill's banning.

The only "threat" Drizzle nerfs is Volcarona and Dragonite already does a good job of checking it.