np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

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xero_k said:
Side note: Is Defog remotely viable as an alternative to spinning? I noticed its current distribution sucks (because of the inability to transfer pokes that have it from previous gens maybe?). Sure, it's non-damaging, but it also isn't blocked by ghost, and instead offers a make-shift accuracy boost. It even rids the opponent of screens, which is nice... Just a thought really, I was always under the impression that only Rapid Spin did that... Most of the Poke's that get it aren't very good... especially not as utility mons, but still.
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I thought defog removed hazards from your opponents side of the field. I.E. The ones you set up


maybe in doubles its usable though
 
xero_k said:
A lot of perspectives to note on the banning thing -.-. A lot of the perspectives would say it "isn't that bad". I'm thinking the whole ban-happy idea comes from many feeling that some bans were unnecessary combined with the different things people WANT bans for and the fact that it's early in the gen still.
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I'm sure the Pokemon actually banned (a starter, some non-pseudos), and the other things banned don't help (Moody, the accuracy items) or the stuff banned in other tiers (Drought in UU, uh...other...stuff?).

And the general, er, attitude? of other suspect testings (ban reuniclus! ban excadrill x 4, baton pass go away!, weathers x5!, various other things people wanted ban) could probably artificially make it seem ban happier even if nothing goes through
 
The problem is that people see the nomination thread but never pay attention to the actual voting so it seems the community is ban-happy as all hell and we're going to ban the whole game out of itself.


And then Dragonite gets a 15% vote.


What people don't understand is that the nomination thread represents (not proportionally) the entirety of the Smogon community, what with its experienced players who know what they're talking about, nostalgic veterans who want to ban anything new, lazy asses who can't be arsed to deal with whatever makes their team suck, luck haters who will forever vote on Jirachi, voters with personal agendas so you can't even begin to understand where they're coming from and make you wonder it's a troll, and people who love to bandwagon. It isn't exclusive to Smogon, it happens in every democracy (that's why "democracy sucks" here? maybe) but, as much as people bandwagon a certain nomination, the voting poll is chosen in such a way that it doesn't suck shit and eat fart, so they'll see their efforts all be in vain unless the nomination *does* have merit. That's why we have banned "a lot" since Round 1, and yet we have less Ubers now than we used to in DPPt. Hell, we have more old Ubers allowed than new Ubers voted in BW...


tl;dr smogon gonna smog, haters gonna hate
 
And frankly, if you're not part of the suspect process you really do have to just put up or shut up. Did I agree with the banning of Blazekin at the time? No. Did I agree with Garchomp's banning? Absolutely not. Do I believe that Excadrill or Thunderus deserved to go? Not a chance. But because I wasn't able to put the time or effort into obtaining voting requirements I have no say in what result occurs from the vote. I can't complain about the results, and must learn to adapt to the new metagame.
 
About Defog, once a friend of mine was running Xatu. He bounced back some hazards from the opponent when his foe suddenly used the scariest strategy ever... He used fucking DEFOG SKARM... RIGHT ON XATU'S FACE. Magic Bounce Bounced back Defog, so it REALLY worked like a Rapid Spin for Skarmory-dude.

I didn't see my friend's face at the time (lol internet friends), but I can imagine his surprise...
 
That's a fairly situational use of Defog and probably will just be useless 99% of the time.

It makes way more sense to use Rapid Spin to get rid of entry hazards than anything else.
 
The D/P/Pt meta was more ban happy than this one. Encore nerf my ass. Wobbs still gives you that guarenteed one turn of setup anyway as no one is going to leave the encore'd pokemon in to get quiver danced on four times.

That, and the checks and counters we have to the former ubers are a bunch of Gen 4 pokes. Deo-D doesn't even break UU.
 
alphatron said:
The D/P/Pt meta was more ban happy than this one. Encore nerf my ass. Wobbs still gives you that guarenteed one turn of setup anyway as no one is going to leave the encore'd pokemon in to get quiver danced on four times.

That, and the checks and counters we have to the former ubers are a bunch of Gen 4 pokes. Deo-D doesn't even break UU.
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Deoxys-d didnt break ou last gen either..
 
alphatron said:
The D/P/Pt meta was more ban happy than this one. Encore nerf my ass. Wobbs still gives you that guarenteed one turn of setup anyway as no one is going to leave the encore'd pokemon in to get quiver danced on four times.

That, and the checks and counters we have to the former ubers are a bunch of Gen 4 pokes. Deo-D doesn't even break UU.
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A bunch of Gen 4 pokemon with new moves and abilities, and some benifiting from weather, while said ex-ubers do not.

Also, said Ex-Ubers, except Mew, who was the incarnation of 4MMS back in Gen 3, let alone Gen 5, got more or less nothing. the ones who did get things have stayed Uber, by and large. Some ex-ubers, such as Salamence, SUFFER from weather [Salamence hated Drill in the sand, and the passive damage, hates Fire Blast being nerfed by the rain, ect]

Wobb got nerfed.
 
Offensive Heatrans on the surge - specially-defensive Heatran is still around but would probably want to have Earth Power to have a chance against them. Reminds me of the good ol' DPP days.

Lots of Scarf Terrakion ugh.
 
Deaga said:
About Defog, once a friend of mine was running Xatu. He bounced back some hazards from the opponent when his foe suddenly used the scariest strategy ever... He used fucking DEFOG SKARM... RIGHT ON XATU'S FACE. Magic Bounce Bounced back Defog, so it REALLY worked like a Rapid Spin for Skarmory-dude.

I didn't see my friend's face at the time (lol internet friends), but I can imagine his surprise...
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Epic, Sure, the best strategy ever xDDDD

So, what do you think about Volcarona out of Drought and Reuniclus?, I find them so overrated.
 
Rai, what did Scizor and t-tar get that allowed them to be able to deal with lati@s and deo-d? How does the encore nerf matter for wobbufett when he is essentially doing the exact same thing it did last gen regardless?

Salamence is a different story. If anything, drought buffed him.
 
verbatim said:
And now a serious question (It's discussion worthy, but not enough so do earn its own thread). What determines a pokemon to be "ban-worthy"? Better yet, what does a pokemon need to have to be seriously considered by the voters. Is it a lack of hard counters, a few number of checks, the ability to "win the game" given one free turn of setup (I'm looking at you Thunderus). What defines ban-worthy?
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I think that this methodology is outdated. There is no single template or criterion that deems a Pokemon uber. Every one is banned for unique reasons, or because of certain characteristics or a combination thereof.
 
alphatron said:
Rai, what did Scizor and t-tar get that allowed them to be able to deal with lati@s and deo-d? How does the encore nerf matter for wobbufett when he is essentially doing the exact same thing it did last gen regardless?

Salamence is a different story. If anything, drought buffed him.
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A new metagame. Last gen, Ttar was used for offense, not weather, so things like Sp. Def weren't really viable. That's why we were all forced to use Scarftar for Latias. Imagine having to deal with Latios under those conditions. Jirachi? Again, offense. Switch your Scarf Jirachi into Latias, and he was going to lose over half of his health. When was the last time you've seen a ScarfRachi this gen? Don't apply new concepts to an old metagame.

How does the encore nerf matter for wobbufett when he is essentially doing the exact same thing it did last gen regardless?
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Getting hit by Specs Hydro Pump, ignored by Hydreigon, and destroyed by Volcarona? Base 130~ offense is extremely common this gen, especially if you take into account Drizzle and Drought. BW OU outright overpowers Wobbuffet.
 
alphatron said:
Rai, what did Scizor and t-tar get that allowed them to be able to deal with lati@s and deo-d? How does the encore nerf matter for wobbufett when he is essentially doing the exact same thing it did last gen regardless?

Salamence is a different story. If anything, drought buffed him.
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The first half of your post has already been answered by another person.

Which is more common? Rain or Sun?

Answer: Rain. [And Sand is even more common, and we all know how much Mence lothes residual damage]

Salamence is therefor overall nerfed by weather.

Mence was also nerfed indirectly by the Lati twins being able to stay in OU thanks to Tyranitar running Sp.Def to tank Politoad better.
 
Sand hurts mence but it doesn't nerf him. Mixmence aready had plenty of stuff that outsped it (starmie, common scarfers) and it can still play the hit the switch game. It might even be stronger now since people slap on Jirachi and say "i've got special dragons covered" where mence can 2HKO it with fb + eq or eqx2 or maybe maybe dm + eq. (haven't run calcs)
 
About Salamence, in BW, its speed it is not already impressive, in past metagames it has the magic speed number which outspeed or tie with almost all, but now it is outspeed by an amount of pokemon which can KO it, even Scarfeds after 1 DD

Salamence also dislikes Evolite Chansey and Porygon2

Also now are pokemon which can replace its roles, Dragonite and Haxorus as physical DD, Dragonite, Hydreigon and Latios as Draco Meteor spammers and Dragonite and Hydreigon as mixeds. Also, bar Dragonite, who has MultiScale bar the version with Superpower, they are not weak to SR.

Salamence is by no means a bad pokemon, it is not already what it was, but it needs to play in a way it is not outclassed by another pokemon. Unpredictability is the key to play Salamence succesfully(and Intimidate/Moxie)

I think, it would worth to try a physical defensive Salamence with Intimidate, Wish/Roost, Dragon Tail and the like or Toxic Stall
 
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