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np: UU Stage 3 - We Are The Champions
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Lol, the irony. Hail is definitely not as good this round, but I still want to remove this element of randomness.
I do not know if Heysup's Darmanitan is Scarfed, but let's assume it is ... then assuming SR is up on both sides and Froslass Subs as Heysup switches to Darmanitan, we have:
Turn 1: Froslass 81.5%, Sub; Darmanitan 68.75%
Turn 2: Darmanitan attacks. 80% chance to hit, takes a bit of recoil. Froslass obviously goes for the paralysis. Froslass 87.5%, Darmanitan ~62%
Turn 3: Froslass goes for Sub again. Darmanitan attacks. 75% chance to attack, 80% chance to hit, or 60% chance to achieve something. Froslass 68.75%, Darmanitan ~55%.
With almost 70% health left Froslass can definitely keep fishing for a miss. If this cycle goes on, Darmanitan will eventually miss and Froslass will put down a layer of Spikes, which means Froslass achieves:
1. Paralyzing a Scarfed Pokemon, which is a very important achievement.
2. One or possibly more layers of Spikes down.
3. Severely weaken Darmanitan, possibly even KO it (uninvested Froslass Blizzard vs. 0/0 Darmanitan: 24.8% - 29.1%).
Froslass can also switch out to Fire resist knowing that Darmanitan is Scarfed (from turn 2). Darmanitan cannot do the same, because whoever it goes to will face Froslass with a Sub up, get paralyzed, face the same miss hax and risk Spikes going up. Kind of too good an achievement if you ask me.
Finally the thing about miss hax is that although you will not lose ten games in a row to it, you can easily lose a single game because of it. Near the top of the ladder where one loss is almost 10+ wins, losing to this kind of idiocy is really annoying if nothing else. That's my opinion.
I do not know if Heysup's Darmanitan is Scarfed, but let's assume it is ... then assuming SR is up on both sides and Froslass Subs as Heysup switches to Darmanitan, we have:
Turn 1: Froslass 81.5%, Sub; Darmanitan 68.75%
Turn 2: Darmanitan attacks. 80% chance to hit, takes a bit of recoil. Froslass obviously goes for the paralysis. Froslass 87.5%, Darmanitan ~62%
Turn 3: Froslass goes for Sub again. Darmanitan attacks. 75% chance to attack, 80% chance to hit, or 60% chance to achieve something. Froslass 68.75%, Darmanitan ~55%.
With almost 70% health left Froslass can definitely keep fishing for a miss. If this cycle goes on, Darmanitan will eventually miss and Froslass will put down a layer of Spikes, which means Froslass achieves:
1. Paralyzing a Scarfed Pokemon, which is a very important achievement.
2. One or possibly more layers of Spikes down.
3. Severely weaken Darmanitan, possibly even KO it (uninvested Froslass Blizzard vs. 0/0 Darmanitan: 24.8% - 29.1%).
Froslass can also switch out to Fire resist knowing that Darmanitan is Scarfed (from turn 2). Darmanitan cannot do the same, because whoever it goes to will face Froslass with a Sub up, get paralyzed, face the same miss hax and risk Spikes going up. Kind of too good an achievement if you ask me.
Finally the thing about miss hax is that although you will not lose ten games in a row to it, you can easily lose a single game because of it. Near the top of the ladder where one loss is almost 10+ wins, losing to this kind of idiocy is really annoying if nothing else. That's my opinion.
Missing once is 20%, missing twice in a row is not MORE likely than missing once.
You can define the game however you want but I assure you "randomness" is not the first thing you would say when someone asks you what "Competitive Pokemon" is. If Pokemon is just a coin flip, competitive coin-flipping is awaiting your arrival.
_Rayquaza said:
Not to boast, but how did I get #1 with a Pokemon that's not even viable? You really have no idea what you're talking about.
Randomness is also not black and white. As I stated before, there's the coin flip example. Are Pokemon and coin flips different? If you answered yes, you've admitted that your argument is a logical fallacy. The answer to the follow up question "How are Pokemon and coin flips different?" is what everyone accepts and is why they play Pokemon. The element of randomness is accepted at many different levels, but the element of full randomness is not accepted by almost every competitive battler (even you). That is why we ban OHKO moves and Evasion Clause. Pushing to ban these other evasion boosting abilities is undeniably logical from that perspective.
_Rayquaza said:
Banedon's argument has much more merit than yours. And you're being unnecessarily hostile about it. Don't make posts like this.
hows your hail team coming along?
I think I can summarize most of what we think of the metagame.
Sandstorm is nice, but not too OP. It will most likely stay. Sand veil has a good chance of getting banned. Maybe not because the pokemon that use it suck. (and Sandslash should be using sand rush anyways)
Hail is seriously nasty. Or at least it looks like it. But it's really only froslass with snow cloak. Froslass is up for some banning later on in it's life.
Chandelure is quite the hard hitter. While it isn't to the fact of OP'ness, many people are complaining saying it's way to powerful for UU. Methinks not, since if it's scarfed you can revenge kill it, and if it's sub, you can outspeed it.
Machamp is boss and might stay here to protect us from froslass and chandelure and chansey. Hoping it will stay here, but chances are once the others leave it will become a dominant force to the metagame.
Chansey=BAN. Nuff said.
Sandstorm is nice, but not too OP. It will most likely stay. Sand veil has a good chance of getting banned. Maybe not because the pokemon that use it suck. (and Sandslash should be using sand rush anyways)
Hail is seriously nasty. Or at least it looks like it. But it's really only froslass with snow cloak. Froslass is up for some banning later on in it's life.
Chandelure is quite the hard hitter. While it isn't to the fact of OP'ness, many people are complaining saying it's way to powerful for UU. Methinks not, since if it's scarfed you can revenge kill it, and if it's sub, you can outspeed it.
Machamp is boss and might stay here to protect us from froslass and chandelure and chansey. Hoping it will stay here, but chances are once the others leave it will become a dominant force to the metagame.
Chansey=BAN. Nuff said.
Took a long break from Pokemon to find out that Machamp, Hippowdon, and Tornadus is UU? That's amazing, I'm really thinking about getting into this tier. I'll check how things are.
I mostly stay on the side of "no hax" in pokemon, but I've thought about it, what kind of game really did gamefreak make it? It isn't poker or chess outright, it has elements of chance, and elements of skill in it. The game is what was made, not whatever suits people that want to tailor it to their preferences. Obviously there are mistakes like OHKO moves and double team though. So just, whenever people use arguments like "this isn't poker", know that the game isn't designed to be chess either.
You know, if you take a look back, you can see that a lot of the main threats in the old days have gotten beaten down little by little. Snorlax, aerodactyl, heracross, zapdos, machamp..... and there's so many more guys that have come down this path. It's pretty amazing to see some of your most annoying or coolest mons go down the path of shame.
It's like how they introduced random tripping in Super Smash Brothers Brawl. Look at the path of Nintendo lately in general, the only serious games for Wii are mostly 3rd party titles and the occasional sequel of a past-gen serious title. Most of their games are for the casual gamer, because it's a bigger demographic.
You can also see it in the transition from Halo to Halo 2 (I know it's not Nintendo but a good example nonetheless), when they took the glorious one shot pistol and made it into the Battle Rifle with a less reliable 3-round burst where the rounds don't always all hit. Bungee said they were trying to make Halo 2 friendly to players who weren't veterans of the series. In other words, they wanted to introduce things that limit the extent to which a skilled player has an advantage over a lesser player.
Now, Pokemon came out before Nintendo was really championing the "casual game" cause, and I know that "rolls" are a traditional part of RPG's, going back to stuff like Dungeons and Dragons when stuff was actually rolled out by die. Still, GF has done plenty to exacerbate the problem with the insane power creep we've seen, leading to a faster-paced game and making hax cost you more and more with every gen. I wouldn't expect them to ever consider it as a problem, or be surprised if some executives like the way it can turn the skill of a match into a complete joke from time to time.
I think there's a lot less hax involved in Generation V's metagames than back in the RBY days!
I have to say that I very much enjoy the metagame. I must say that the drop downs have evened out the mons I was suspect of during the time in between round and stage; namely chansey and frosslass. However one pokemon still is proving detrimental to the metagame and that is ALAKAZAM. Seriously without spiritomb one is left with a check at best. I am not sure if he is broken as I have found ways to handle him. However he is most definitely suspect worthy.
On another note I am not sure why everyone is having trouble with machamp. He is most definitely top tier but unless severely unlucky or lucky as the case maybe he is not getting through his counters alone.
On another note I am not sure why everyone is having trouble with machamp. He is most definitely top tier but unless severely unlucky or lucky as the case maybe he is not getting through his counters alone.
For those who play in-game ..doesnt it just make you cry and frustrated when you lose in the battle subway/tower not to a superior team or because of bad play on your part, but rather to HAX..swagger abuse, double team abuse, Quick claw+OHKO move..I agree that Nintendo tries to make hax more involved in the game to keep it more balanced..and idk if its just me with bad luck or if the game is programmed for the player to have the odds against him?
I totally agree with this.Sleep Talk Lax especially with Body Slam and Whirlwind.
It is one of the best pokes in UU for me right now.
It is so fucking useful in every situation.
And the funny things is that it is really going under the radar.All i see is mostly CBLax and CurseLax while i rarely see RestTalk Lax.
There isn't even an analysis about him in the strategy pokedex...Such a shame...
One set that was posted by someone making an RMT caught my eye. A hone claws aerodactyl. Sounds decent enough to deal some damage. The set seemed to be a kind of set that would make you opponent switch mons around allowing you to put a dent in all of his team, thus weakening them enough for the rest of your team to wipe them out. This was the set:
-Aqua Tail
-Stone Edge
-Earthquake
-Hone Claws
-Aqua Tail
-Stone Edge
-Earthquake
-Hone Claws
I haven't personally played with Hone Claws Aero, I honestly don't know how great of a sweeper he can be. The current metagame has many bulky pokemon neutral to all three moves, and able to dish out damage to a frail Aerodactyl. He can't ko bulky waters such as Suicune and Slowbro, physically bulky grasses (I've seen more and more Tangrowth lately), as well as the bulky psychics Mew and Deoxys, and bulky ghosts. It can't OHKO Machamp that invests in HP with EQ or a max HP escavalier with stone edge, which I've also seen a lot more of. Combine that with scarfers, priority, and general lack of power with only a +1 base 105 attack stat to sweep with, and he doesn't look too effective on paper. If anyone wants to bring up evidence of HC Aero being good, I'm all ears, but I'd prefer other fast and frail sweepers such as NP Azelf or SD Weavile. They may not be able to sweep everything by themselves, but I'm fairly sure they can hit much harder than Aero.
I'd rather lead and set up Stealth Rocks than go for Hone Claws. But thats just me.
Suicide lead Dactyl's are terrible this gen, too easy to counter and predict and in an environment where its completely dominated by bulky or high resistance stuff you don't want something thats sole purpose is to die.
On the other hand a Hone Claws Dactyl can leave a massive dent in your opponent thanks to a massive movepool consisting of all elemental fangs, ground/water/STAB rock/dragon/dark/steel, various support moves and reliable recovery. Really remember we're talking about something with 105 attack and 130 speed here, you have to take advantage of the fact HC Aero is unpredictable, it can literally come at you on your biggest weaks.
On the other hand a Hone Claws Dactyl can leave a massive dent in your opponent thanks to a massive movepool consisting of all elemental fangs, ground/water/STAB rock/dragon/dark/steel, various support moves and reliable recovery. Really remember we're talking about something with 105 attack and 130 speed here, you have to take advantage of the fact HC Aero is unpredictable, it can literally come at you on your biggest weaks.
Is it just me or is stall dead this stage? I've been laddering in between cramming for my history midterm (I'm so fucked) and I haven't seen a single stall team. The closest I saw to stall were defensive hail teams who set up entry haxards and blocked spins with 2 ghosts (usually 'lass and 'tomb) while spamming Blizz. The only other teams I ran into were hyper offense and bulky offense. I guess people are not too thrilled to try stall when Specs Chandelure is on every other team.
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