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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Scarf Mamo speed ties and will never fail to kill (iirc) with Icicle Spear.
I don't think haxorus is the best choice for countering this guy. Porygon2 can switch in more easily (preferably on a dragon dance) and trace multiscale, making it even harder for dragonite to take him down. However, if porygon2 were to switch into an attack (let's use CB outrage as an example) how much damage would he take??
Wrong metagame. Try dubz.
Mienshao used Wide Guard. Wide Guard protects Meinshao's team.
Accelgor used Feint. Accelgor shattered Mienshao's protections.
Jellicent used Water Spout. Their entire team dies.
Wide Guard is pretty BS in Dubz so Feint's pretty legitimate.
I'm going to list the arguments i've seen against not banning Multiscale or Dragonite:
"It's easy to counter, just use SR!" - But smart Dragonites often come with Rapid Spin support.
"But then it needs support to work, so it's not broken!" - Wrong. Excadrill needed Sand Stream support; Thundurus needed Rapid Spin or even Drizzle Support. Manaphy needed Drizzle support. Where are they now?
"But still, Dragonite is easy to counter." - No it isn't. with 134 / 100 offenses and pratically every relevant offensive move on the game, it has no surefire counters.
"But you can still always revenge it with Mamoswine." - The same can be said about Rayquaza and Shaymin-S. Should we unban them too? Oh, and a full health Dragonite takes only 75% max from Mamoswine's CB Ice Shard.
"Ah, then just use Scarf Haxorus!" - Alright, I have to use the shittiest set of a pokemon to "counter" Dragonite, because Haxorus still loses to Sub Dragonite, Mixed Dragonite, CB Dragonite on the switch-in.
"It's easy to counter, just use SR!" - But smart Dragonites often come with Rapid Spin support.
"But then it needs support to work, so it's not broken!" - Wrong. Excadrill needed Sand Stream support; Thundurus needed Rapid Spin or even Drizzle Support. Manaphy needed Drizzle support. Where are they now?
"But still, Dragonite is easy to counter." - No it isn't. with 134 / 100 offenses and pratically every relevant offensive move on the game, it has no surefire counters.
"But you can still always revenge it with Mamoswine." - The same can be said about Rayquaza and Shaymin-S. Should we unban them too? Oh, and a full health Dragonite takes only 75% max from Mamoswine's CB Ice Shard.
"Ah, then just use Scarf Haxorus!" - Alright, I have to use the shittiest set of a pokemon to "counter" Dragonite, because Haxorus still loses to Sub Dragonite, Mixed Dragonite, CB Dragonite on the switch-in.
I just toxic the thing, if it has lum berry, and its an offensive dragon dance version, its GG right there, but aside from that I am fine.
I thunk we can assume that if Dragonite isn't restoring 6% health every turn and is using Dragon Dance, your safe bet is to weaken it for the next revenge killer, which is fairly easy considering it's most likely only a Bulky or Offensive Dragonite (doesn't threaten at first).
Offensive with lum berry is the most dangerous set imo, if not maybe the sub DD set. Countless sweeps when stuff tries to toxic or wow, even worse when you are relying on a 75/80% accuracy move that has to hit twice. You should be prepared for a DD lum set if anything. The weaker DD sets are less effective since they can't break anything without multiple DDs and they are often statused or phazed first. It's not as easy to phaze something with like 60 points of attack and a 120 base power move or status them through lum twice. Don't get me wrong, mix sets will also tear apart cores, but they don't pose a threat of sweeping a team on their own.
Scarf Haxorus is actually pretty good in the metagame, and its Haxorus' second best set. It got a major boost in viability when Exca got banned. Obviously anyone who thinks Haxorus "counters" Dragonite is mistaken because it can't switch in period. Also Dual Chop is pretty neat vs sub sets (it can't ko obviously but w/e)
In other news, anyone used SD Breloom? I've had a ton of fun with Spore / SD / Mach Punch / Seed Bomb Breloom. Its a lot weaker than Breloom but its got the utility factor.
People underestimate DD haxorus as well. In some ways it's even better than DDnite. You've got taunt, no SR / 4x ice weak, mold breaker, and better offensive stats. Taunt lets you stop whirlwind, status, and leech seed. Haxorus reaches enough speed to beat scarf Poli with only 136 Evs, so the extra 120 can make him alot bulkier. Since you aren't 4x ice weak, you can survive most unstabbed ice beams and such. You hit more speed (beat scarf terrakion at +2, where nite can't), more power, and similar physical bulk. You also have 147 base attack which gets the 2HKO on quag unboosted. Speaking of quag, mold breaker completely nullifies unaware, so quag isn't stopping hax anytime soon. Nite does have fire punch and extremspeed though, but hax isn't far behind.
I've also tried breloom a while ago, with max speed to beat the 244 mark. It's actually really good since it beats so many of the common mons but right now you will have problems with Dragonite if you don't run stone edge.
I've also tried breloom a while ago, with max speed to beat the 244 mark. It's actually really good since it beats so many of the common mons but right now you will have problems with Dragonite if you don't run stone edge.
This also assumes that the player playing against Dragonite has a) nothing that can use Roar, Haze, Dragon Tail b) no Steel-type and c) is incompetent about keeping SR on the field.
You can't just say that Dragonite is an instant gg. You can use Sandstorm. You can use Hail. You can use ScarfMons. You can use bulky Steels. You can use Ice Sharders. You can use something to bait Outrage, break MultiScale, and swap to a Steel. You can use Stealth Rock. You can use a Spin Blocker or offensive pressure -- if they want to get rid of SR, make them sacrifice their spinner.
tl;dr Dragonite is a very good Pokemon but you can stop it....
What's so "incompetent" about a spinner coming in, spinning, then switching to Dragonite as you try to set up your rocks again? Also, can you please list me 1 user of the move Haze in OU?
Dude, Dragonite got the least votes on the last test. Just let it go.
Dragonite is weak to sr, and saying that you can bring a spinner isnt a good argument against that, if you are running a team with a phazer roaring can bring in dragonite and break its multiscale and then roar again as without a dance dragonite isnt doing much to skarmory.
the standard dd set. only has 2 coverage moves and they generally leave it with much to be desired if it wants to 2hko with metgame with only 2 moves alongside outrage.
with mulktiscale broken mamoswine revenegs easily, and no one is going to switch straight to mamwine when you bring out your dnite, they will break multiscale and maybe sack whatever is currently in then revenge.
also scarfhaxorus is a great mon, nabbing surprise kills vs the likes of latios and infernape and so on who come in to revenge kill only to get outsped and koed.
dragonite is a great mon, it just isnt banworthy material
The most important thing with Dragonite is that with all its sets combined, its unstoppable, however, each individual set is more manageable. The important thing is to first figure out the set, then play from there.
Sigh... arguing is just not the same without Pusheen the Cat to back me up T.T
Dragonite should be put for a vote, not Multiscale. It doesn't make Lugia broken (...it already is without it !__!), so it's not broken by itself.
Two can play that game. You have Dragonite, I have Stealth Rock. You have Rapid Spin, I have a Ghost. You have Pursuit, I have Terrakion. And so on. It's much easier to set up hazards (specially SR) than it is to remove then since DPPt, and you know it.
Manaphy and Thundurus were believed by many to be broken even without Drizzle, I'm not even sure having Tyranitar in your team really is "support" because lol Tyranitar but ok I'll give you that, and wtf @ Thundurus needing Spin support, sometimes it just needed a free turn to set up Nasty Plot and wreck shit. What good is there in setting up SR if it's going to switch in only once?
Can it be stopped without taking any ridiculous measures such as having Solarbeam Flygon in ADV to counter Groudon? That's what matters.
C'mon Blue Star, stop with the Dnite hate D:
He's really good, but broken? I don't think so.
I'll take Lum DD as the example.
What can the Lum help you with?
- Status
This gives Dnite an extra turn to use DD, which usually means he'll be at +2.
- You can run Outrage without AS MUCH risk.
What are the Cons?
- No Leftovers
This means Sand, lolHail, and even pathetically weak attacks like Rapid Spin will break MS, and leave you with "WeakNite".(I'll refer Non-MSNite as that :P)
What can stop LumDDNite?
- Steels
Even with Fire Punch, Dnite can still have quite a bit of trouble against Steel types like Jirachi, Skarmory, Bronzong, Ferrothorn, and especially Heatran.
Even with a Lum Berry, you risk paralysis when you go head-to-head with Jirachi and it takes a couple Dances to get through the pixie.
You're not breaking through Skarmory. Ever. The only way to do it is to weaken him with something else, catch him with Magnezone, or be the last Pokemon standing.
Bronzong with HP Ice might be troublesome, though I'm unsure how hard he can hit you. You might actually be able to set up on him.
Ferrothorn is a troll. Staying in on him without several DDs under your belt is dangerous. He can Leech Seed you, which will keep you in WeakNite mode or use T-wave on you. Even with a Lum Berry, I'm unsure if you can OHKO him with Fire Punch in time.
Heatran is the worst of the Steels. D-Pulse/HP Ice will continually harass you, easily a 2HKO, and Lava Plume will burn you, so even switching in is dangerous for Dnite as even at +6, I doubt a Dragon Claw will OHKO.
-Bulky Waters with Ice beam/Haze
If you're unable to 2HKO the bulky Water, good luck with their Ice Beams that will constantly turn you into WeakNite and you also risk freezing.
Also, Milotic with Haze is super trollish guys. Use it.
- Ice, Ice Baby
Mamoswine and Weavile. Pick one.
- SR + Strong hitters
Scarf Terrakion along with SR support will be huge trouble.
Just a couple things you can use :P
He's really good, but broken? I don't think so.
I'll take Lum DD as the example.
What can the Lum help you with?
- Status
This gives Dnite an extra turn to use DD, which usually means he'll be at +2.
- You can run Outrage without AS MUCH risk.
What are the Cons?
- No Leftovers
This means Sand, lolHail, and even pathetically weak attacks like Rapid Spin will break MS, and leave you with "WeakNite".(I'll refer Non-MSNite as that :P)
What can stop LumDDNite?
- Steels
Even with Fire Punch, Dnite can still have quite a bit of trouble against Steel types like Jirachi, Skarmory, Bronzong, Ferrothorn, and especially Heatran.
Even with a Lum Berry, you risk paralysis when you go head-to-head with Jirachi and it takes a couple Dances to get through the pixie.
You're not breaking through Skarmory. Ever. The only way to do it is to weaken him with something else, catch him with Magnezone, or be the last Pokemon standing.
Bronzong with HP Ice might be troublesome, though I'm unsure how hard he can hit you. You might actually be able to set up on him.
Ferrothorn is a troll. Staying in on him without several DDs under your belt is dangerous. He can Leech Seed you, which will keep you in WeakNite mode or use T-wave on you. Even with a Lum Berry, I'm unsure if you can OHKO him with Fire Punch in time.
Heatran is the worst of the Steels. D-Pulse/HP Ice will continually harass you, easily a 2HKO, and Lava Plume will burn you, so even switching in is dangerous for Dnite as even at +6, I doubt a Dragon Claw will OHKO.
-Bulky Waters with Ice beam/Haze
If you're unable to 2HKO the bulky Water, good luck with their Ice Beams that will constantly turn you into WeakNite and you also risk freezing.
Also, Milotic with Haze is super trollish guys. Use it.
- Ice, Ice Baby
Mamoswine and Weavile. Pick one.
- SR + Strong hitters
Scarf Terrakion along with SR support will be huge trouble.
Just a couple things you can use :P
@Blue Star
Dragonite is the only relevant user of Multiscale.
Dragonite is the only relevant user of Multiscale.
But Lugia is not broken because of Multiscale, it's broken because well it's Lugia. Thus, you cannot say Multiscale is broken, simply because it doesn't break every pokémon that has it. But guess what, there's a pokémon that gets it and becomes "broken". So what should happen to him?
Nonono, I didn't say that. I said that, if you can have a Spinner for my SR, I can have something to stop your spinning. Besides, it's not only for Dragonite, it's for, well, the whole metagame lol. If I set up hazards, I will want them to be up all the time, or in relevant turns. Never did I say you need 3 pokémon for only 1, I said that Stealth Rock is a way to stop Dragonite from setting up (or more specifically, Multiscale from being abused) and then do whatever I have in my team to make it a non-issue.
Regarding your 20% argument... Dragonite is used in less than 20% of the teams. So they're even ?__?
You were talking about it not having surefire counters, even though that's irrelevant; you cannot counter "Dragonite", but you can deal with "CBNite", "DD+Lum", etcetera.
Every time you discuss Dragonite, you want a 101% way to deal with it. It doesn't exist. Since DPPt, many pokémon don't have a single counter to EVERY possible set, and not every possible set is relevant (like people using Earthquake Infernape as an argument). If you want to discuss Dragonite's broken status then fine, but bring arguments for it being "too much" (and here we go again on semantics) for the metagame instead of saying people can't counter a 252/252/252 Careful Adamant +1 Nite with Dragon Claw / Draco Meteor / Earthquake / Fire Punch / Roost / Dragon Dance / Substitute / Dragon Tail / Thunder Wave and six Leftovers. As I said, two can play the pokémon game. You may create the right conditions for a Nite sweep, and I may shit on its face just as well. The question is, which is more likely to happen and, if it's the former, "can we bear it".
Besides, Slowbro didn't completely counter Blaziken but eh who cares now.
I find this odd, you should be able to ban an ability, regardless of one of its user's status in Ubers, with or without the ability. Let say Mewtwo was given moody, just because it has moody, and is Uber without it, does not mean moody should not be banned in this hypothetical case. Uber pokemon are irrelevant in the standard metagame, and thus should not be given any consideration in such bans. Without Lugia you have only Dragonite, one pokemon, 2 abilities.
With that in consideration, I believe it would not be too problematic to ban just the ability, just because only one pokemon has the ability that breaks it, that is no excuse to ban the pokemon. Why? That pokemon is all the pokemon with the ability, and thus the ability would "break all those pokemon with the ability," which would be fine under Smogon’s policy, because one is all is this case. If something OU and lower has this ability, it would be a different story, but they don't, it’s the only one.
If anything the argument against banning Multiscale vs. Dragonite should be against the above, possibly under the grounds of Dragonite and multiscale are connected, which is reasonable, but using Lugia in such an argument is silly.
BTW: I don't think Dragonite should be banned either way.
If we want to discuss semantics, it would seem the decision on whether to consider banning multiscale or Dragonite (though, like you, I'm not advocating either) comes down to what our definition of breaks all Pokemon with the ability. I would argue that it doesn't refer to simply Pokemon that currently have the ability but the result of giving that ability to any Pokemon.
Look at Moody. Sure only a handful of Pokemon had it, but, looking back at when it was legal, it was certainly broken on almost anything it could be given to (barring things like Magikarp and Kakuna that can't learn Sub+Protect). This is clearly evident from such silliness as Bidoof sweeps in Ubers.
Look at Drought in UU. It made Vulpix broken, a mon with a base stat total lower than Geodude and no stat above 65. Once again, this is clear evidence that Drought was broken on everything in the tier, maybe not excepting things like Magikarp this time since Vulpix was only really needed to set up the insta-sun.
Now compare that to Multiscale. Can anybody envision Multiscale Bidoof or Multiscale Vulpix having similar success compared with their Moody or Drought having forms? Obviously not, so there are clearly non-magikarp-and-gang-mons that would not be broken with Multiscale.
tl;dr I'm not advocating banning Dragonite or banning Multiscale at all, but if you want to consider banning Multiscale, whether you should be allowed to depends on your definition of "breaks all Pokemon with the ability." ...which I suppose is probably the kind of argument you mentioned we should be having in your third paragraph.
yeah im a bit reluctant to go off and ban Multi Scale or w/e. Personally, I just hate losing one pokemon to Dragonite no matter what I do. For example Gliscor loses (and by this I mean cannot switch in and win) to at least 3 Dragonite sets off the top of my head, Scarfers lose to about 3 sets as well and so on. Note that im not saying that this makes it broken, just saying that its fucking annoying when your "counter" gets raped on the switch in.
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