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np: UU Stage 3 - We Are The Champions
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Not really.
Abomasnow: Umm...lol? Flare blitz
Aerodactyl: Haven't seen this but it beats Arcanine I guess
Ambipom: Haven't seen this either but probably does like 50% with return so I can morning sun till its in Espeed KO range.
Arcanine: Offensive loses, haven't seen a defensive one in a long time
Azelf: Probably 3HKOs with psyshock but will lose 1 on 1 unless psyshock crits or something
Azumarill: Should see this more but haven't seen it much; beats Arcanine
Bisharp: loses to flare blitz though defiant is a bitch
Blastoise: Toxic and then stall it out with morning sun (yes it loses!!!)
Chandelure: Sub variants win, scarf variants lose
Chansey: Toxic, but Arcanine fears toxic in return
Cobalion: I doubt stone edge OHKOs without Life orb and Flare blitz is probably a OHKO
Cresselia: Loses to toxic
Crobat: Too weak
Darmanitan: Loses if locked into flare blitz but can beat with eq/rock slide
Deoxys-D: Tie, both fear toxic
Donphan: Loses but w/e
Dusclops: Flare blitz+toxic, but arcanine still fears toxic
Empoleon: 2HKO'd by Flare blitz with SR.
Escavelier: dont even need to elaborate
Flygon: Arcanine can revenge but otherwise loses
Froslass: Loses to flare blitz
Golurk: Semi-rare, but beats it i guess
Heracross: flare blitz
Hippowdon: FUCK YOU HIPPO
Hitmontop: Stalemate
Houndoom: 1 on 1 Arcanine wins
Jolteon: Arcanine used flare blitz
Kingdra: Yes this wins
Machamp: Loses to Stone Edge
Mamoswine: Can earthquake but Arcanine can afford to run some EVS in speed
Mew: loses to flare blitz
Milotic: all bulky waters lose
Missy: Loses to flare blitz
Aerodactyl: Haven't seen this but it beats Arcanine I guess
Ambipom: Haven't seen this either but probably does like 50% with return so I can morning sun till its in Espeed KO range.
Arcanine: Offensive loses, haven't seen a defensive one in a long time
Azelf: Probably 3HKOs with psyshock but will lose 1 on 1 unless psyshock crits or something
Azumarill: Should see this more but haven't seen it much; beats Arcanine
Bisharp: loses to flare blitz though defiant is a bitch
Blastoise: Toxic and then stall it out with morning sun (yes it loses!!!)
Chandelure: Sub variants win, scarf variants lose
Chansey: Toxic, but Arcanine fears toxic in return
Cobalion: I doubt stone edge OHKOs without Life orb and Flare blitz is probably a OHKO
Cresselia: Loses to toxic
Crobat: Too weak
Darmanitan: Loses if locked into flare blitz but can beat with eq/rock slide
Deoxys-D: Tie, both fear toxic
Donphan: Loses but w/e
Dusclops: Flare blitz+toxic, but arcanine still fears toxic
Empoleon: 2HKO'd by Flare blitz with SR.
Escavelier: dont even need to elaborate
Flygon: Arcanine can revenge but otherwise loses
Froslass: Loses to flare blitz
Golurk: Semi-rare, but beats it i guess
Heracross: flare blitz
Hippowdon: FUCK YOU HIPPO
Hitmontop: Stalemate
Houndoom: 1 on 1 Arcanine wins
Jolteon: Arcanine used flare blitz
Kingdra: Yes this wins
Machamp: Loses to Stone Edge
Mamoswine: Can earthquake but Arcanine can afford to run some EVS in speed
Mew: loses to flare blitz
Milotic: all bulky waters lose
Missy: Loses to flare blitz
Don't have the time to do the whole list of UU but Arcanine can deal with about 50% of UU, and loses to the other half although sand is a bitch
I agree with Brel, Arcanine sucks now. Almost every other Fire type in UU is better than him. Darmanitan, Victini, and Chandelure can at least get past Hippowdon with their standard sets, and they don't rely on a recovery move that's nerfed under Sandstorm. What does Sp. Def Arcanine wall anyway? Definitely not any of the aforementioned Fire-types. Blastoise will be happy if you switch him in instead of Chandelure, because he'll get a free Rapid Spin and Toxic. No Morning Sun. What is it supposed to do?
EDIT: Oh, you have a list. I might do some more calcs when I have time, but as a spoiler Specs Jolteon's Thunderbolt does 44.8% - 53.1% and Leftovers has Baton Pass. It never loses.
Does it have Will-o-Wisp too? Which ability is it using?
EDIT: Oh, you have a list. I might do some more calcs when I have time, but as a spoiler Specs Jolteon's Thunderbolt does 44.8% - 53.1% and Leftovers has Baton Pass. It never loses.
Does it have Will-o-Wisp too? Which ability is it using?
Arcanine's offensive set is outclassed. Defensive is not.
While Hippo is annoying as fuck to face(get this bitch out of UU), it doesn't become dead weight. Sure, it gets nerfed but flare blitz still hurts.
Also, you shouldn't be switching arcanine into a bulky water. However, bulky waters tend to switch in so you can severely cripple it. Give it a go, it may not be the best poke on, but it's better than the physical attacker and no one has probably seen one since gen4 UU so the surprise might net you an extra kill
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I suppose you could be really gimmicky and run cofagrigus, stoutland cant touch it without losing its double speed LOL. if you run something like bisharp/cofag and switch on the fire fang, you now have a stoutland with mummy :O
As I said gimmicky..... but so fun lol.
Also umbreon deals with alakazam and non specs chandelures and can wish and use heal bell too keep the team healthy. Just some thoughts.
As I said gimmicky..... but so fun lol.
Also umbreon deals with alakazam and non specs chandelures and can wish and use heal bell too keep the team healthy. Just some thoughts.
Cofagrigus had potential to be good. He just doesn't have any recovery options and being asleep is the near-equivalent of being KOed this gen unless you're really lucky. You can still use him if you want, but he won't last as a spinblocker, something we really need in the tier right now.
But he is a godlike Machamp counter. I'm tempted to use him for that alone.
But he is a godlike Machamp counter. I'm tempted to use him for that alone.
Well if you used rest and paired him with a heal bell user (like umbreon/chansey) you could make him last all day long, he stalls out the most common spinblockers. Donphan and hitmontop get burned via WoW and cant do anything with EQ and stone edge. Then you use rest and take a measly bit of damage when you are pursuited from whatever they switch in. Then later on in the game you switch umbreon or whatevs in and use heal bell.
It was only a gimmicky suggestion, but a suggestion nonetheless :P
It was only a gimmicky suggestion, but a suggestion nonetheless :P
CB Adamant 252 Attack Stoutland Return vs. 4/0 Cobalion: 28.4% - 33.3% (Cobalion can't sweep through Hippowdon, so can be worn down)
CB Adamant 252 Attack Stoutland Return vs. 252/0 Technitop: 78.3% - 92.8% (again, can't sweep through Hippowdon, easily worn down)
CB Adamant 252 Attack Stoutland Crunch vs. Mismagius / Golurk: no point calculating
CB Adamant 252 Attack Stoutland Return vs. 4/0 Kingdra: calculated above, close to OHKO with SR, vulnerable to sand
CB Adamant 252 Attack Stoutland Return vs. 4/0 Bisharp: 34.1% - 40.4% (what else? Walled by Hippowdon)
So while Stoutland is wearing its counters down, its counters cannot beat Hippowdon, a Pokemon Stoutland is bound to have as a teammate. If I'm missing something, please point it out.
What is really breaking sand in UU? Is it Hippowdon, or is it sand itself?
Personally, I'd say that the problem lies in Hipppowdon. Everything that Stoutland can't beat is beaten by Hippowdon. The same can't be said about Hippopotas. Hippowdon is way too good for this tier and I'd rather see it go then ban sand itself.
Personally, I'd say that the problem lies in Hipppowdon. Everything that Stoutland can't beat is beaten by Hippowdon. The same can't be said about Hippopotas. Hippowdon is way too good for this tier and I'd rather see it go then ban sand itself.
Considering there wasn't many/any complaints about sand when just Hippopatas was in the tier, I'd assume it's big brother hippo causing the problems.
You guys should try CB Hippo, it hits like a motherfucking truck and no one ever expects it. The SpD set is good too.
Sand is quite threatening. I'll give it that. But it's not like it can't be beaten.
There are a few mons that I've seen that are quite threatening and underrated in this metagame. One of them is escavelier. While it may be 4X weak to fire, that's its only weakness. Megahorn and iron head obliterate pretty much everything, aerial ace catches everyone by surprise, and pursuit is good for countering checks.
Another mon in RU is crustle. Once this thing shell smashes, I find it hard for the opponent to stop it. Earthquake, stone edge, and x-scizzor are wonderful moves, and any one of them can be replaced with rock blast. Since you don't want it's defences dropped, white herb would be the best item of choice.
There are a few mons that I've seen that are quite threatening and underrated in this metagame. One of them is escavelier. While it may be 4X weak to fire, that's its only weakness. Megahorn and iron head obliterate pretty much everything, aerial ace catches everyone by surprise, and pursuit is good for countering checks.
Another mon in RU is crustle. Once this thing shell smashes, I find it hard for the opponent to stop it. Earthquake, stone edge, and x-scizzor are wonderful moves, and any one of them can be replaced with rock blast. Since you don't want it's defences dropped, white herb would be the best item of choice.
Latley i've been using a Lum berry on mine, just to stop Sableye. He has sturdy, His defenses don't really matter.
Anyone's impressions of Kingdra so far? I'm using a ChestoResto set right now and it's proving to be somewhat great. It feels somewhat underrated, considering that 99% of most discussions have been on Hippowdon ever since he dropped...
Yes you are missing that it is not Cobalion vs Stoutland and Hippo,or Bisharp vs HIppo and Stoutland and so on.
The are other 5 teammates to take care of Hippo.
Also there is no point in showing how much damage Crunch does vs the ghosts as i clearly said that they are checks to the CB Stoutland,which i find to be more common from my experience.
This means that if CB stoutland kills something your ghost just got a free setup oportunity.
Of 'course it can revenge kill you later but this means that will already have killed one of the opponent's pokes.
And as i said earlier if the killing cyrcle begins,the offensive team without Stoutland will be at an advantage most of the times because Stoutland is a revenge killer.
He must come after something dies.So you are not leading the pace of the game.The oponent does and this is what offensive teams should be doing.Keeping the momentum and killing the opposing pokes first.
Ah and finally about kingdra.With very little Hp investement he can avoid the ohko from CB return after SR,and setup RD.After this good luck bringing in Hippo again against MixDra.
No it isn't Cobalion / Bisharp vs. Hippowdon, but this mimics a real game. What might happen is:
Stoutland switches in.
Stoutland uses Return, Cobalion / Bisharp takes hazard + Return damage.
Now either Cobalion / Bisharp uses Substitute / Swords Dance, or they attack at once. In either case, Hippowdon switches in.
If Cobalion / Bisharp chose to set up, Hippowdon attacks with Earthquake. If they stay in, both are KOed; Hippowdon takes damage but is still OK.
If Cobalion / Bisharp chose to attack, Hippowdon uses Slack Off. Both are now that much closer to getting worn out.
If this cycle goes on long enough, Stoutland will eventually sweep. You need to break the cycle by not letting Stoutland switch in, but not only is that unreliable, you can't do anything if Stoutland comes in after a KO. As for the ghosts, what might happen is Stoutland switches out while you set up. He sacrifices something to your Ghost, then brings Stoutland back in, this time using Pursuit. Said Ghost is KOed. Once again he switches out, sacrifices something to get Stoutland in, and this time you have nothing to wall Return while he OHKOes most offensive Pokemon. See the log SJcrew posted on post #473; it's an example.
As for mixed Kingdra, I've not actually used it or seen it in action, but I do see a problem. It's a mixed sweeper, so it must split EVs between Attack, Special Attack and Speed. Now you have to invest in HP too, you can't use Life Orb and to avoid dying to Sandstorm damage (unless you want to risk putting up rain when Hippowdon is in) you need to use Leftovers. Doesn't that make for a weak sweeper?
Im under the impression that specially defensive Arcanine is its /best/ set. Honestly, it is ridiculously good, even with sand being on every other team. If you can run a sunny dayer it can wall stuff really well. Physical attacker seems cool but isn't as strong especially without permanent sun. It dies really fast, while specially defensive has a shot of living with morning sun. It's also the coolest bulky water lure since scald only does around 40%
I started using careful Arcanine only because I accidentally bred a shiny one. I invested all EVs into HP and Att, last bit in speed and I've been very happy with him. He can take special hits well and shrugs off water attacks from non-sweeper water types while hitting hard with Wild Charge. Jellicent (i know, OU) hates him.
The mistake in your logic is that Hippo will always be at full health and able to take on everything that Stoutland cannot.
It is an offensive team we are talking about remember.So the opponent will have plenty of pokes to bring your Hippo on low health.
I know that he has reliable recovery but he slow as shit and very vulnerable to Special attacks.
Also the opponent can just setup with a strong physical sweeper,while you bring in Hippo to kill or roar out.
So after you are done with this threat you now have around 30%-40% life(any strong physical attacker will deal more than half to Hippo after a turn of setup or simply with a band like Rhyperior,Darmanitan,Victini etc) to deal with Stoutland's problems.
Also on your point about ghosts,i never said that they should be your only checks.
And anyway you never pack only 1 check against a big offensive threat.You pack mutliple checks that serve many purposes.
So if you have a Ghost this means that you can make CB Stoutland's life more harder and keep him at bay,preventing him from spamming normal attacks,to not let you setup.
Even if he kills you,you will already have killed a poke and you should have another check to Stoutland anyway.
Never forget that Stoutland is a revenge killer.
Most of the times he comes in after something dies especially on an offensive team,where everything is hitting very hard.
Finally about Kingdra.
While you are right that he cannot setup RD after tanking a CB Return,since then he will die after 1 round of recoil from LO,he can setup in any other moves Stoutland will be locked into.
Sry that i mentioned him as a check he really isnt.No matter how many HP evs you put,it will be very difficult to tank a Return and then have enough health to to your job with LO chiping your health away...He is however a very good revenge killer that can prove to be very difficult for sand teams to handle.
Also MixDra doesn't need much speed because in rain it already has insane speed so you are almost free to max Atc and S.Atc with a LO.
A simple set with Hydro Pump,Outrage and Draco Meteor can be very difficult to handle for a sand team...
You bring up a good point, the only thing I can think of that can switch into that would be SpD Empoleon, but I'm not sure how common he is on a sand team. Although I'm fairly certain he can tank 2 moves from that set and threaten it out with a twave or (lol) HP Dragon. I know it's a random asspull set, but it could work! maybe. . .
I'm not going to go on a quoting spree, but there's been a lot of talk about how Hippo beats Cobalion. There is always a special Cobalions, which I haven't tried yet, but I may start if the Hippo Stoutland combo (which I've never had too big a problem with) gets too annoying. Some scenarios: A Cobalion with lefties who calm minds on the switch 2hkos Hippo with Focus Blast, and avoids a ko from standard EQ and Stoutland's CB return almost always thanks to recovery. An all out special attacker with LO can 2hko Hippo on the switch in with Focus Blast, and an Offensive calm mind comes very close to an OHKO with +1 LO Focus Blast, meaning Hippo can't switch into hazards or have any previous damage.
Kingdra is actually pretty good in this tier. Especially with ChestoRest, as it basically gives you two Pokemon for the price of one.
I think one Pokemon should be BL in this tier, and that's Hippowdon. It just provides so much free support in this tier and enables Stoutland and co. too much. I can (literally) throw together a Sand team with Hippowdon, some support Pokemon, and some Sand abusers and break 1400 on the UU ladder. That shouldn't happen. Even if I play poorly I can win with Sand on my team, simply because it's either "play with Sand or lose to Sand" in this meta. There is one other auto-Weather in this metagame and that's Hail, and Sand just outright dominates Hail so badly that it's laughable.
Sure, Aboma can switch into Hippowdon. But it's taking 25-50% on the switch plus it has to switch into either Toxic, Earthquake, or Roar, all of which will cause even more damage to the Christmas tree. Since it has no reliable recovery, Abomasnow gets about 2-4 safe switch-ins per match while Hippowdon can easily get ten+. Hippowdon's immense physical bulk, access to Roar to stop set-up Pokemon, Toxic to wear down bulky Pokemon, and Slack Off to basically prevent the opponent from wearing down Hippowdon.
Even statusing the hippo doesn't work because Hippo can just come in, change the weather, use Slack Off, and leave. In that time Toxic will have done a massive 6.25% total damage and Burn will do a whopping 12.5% thanks to Leftovers and (rather obvious) Sandstorm immunity.
In the end, playing against Sand in UU is almost impossible, and that's Hippowdon's fault. I don't like having to ban things, but Hippowdon is just too good to be UU. BL, please.
I think one Pokemon should be BL in this tier, and that's Hippowdon. It just provides so much free support in this tier and enables Stoutland and co. too much. I can (literally) throw together a Sand team with Hippowdon, some support Pokemon, and some Sand abusers and break 1400 on the UU ladder. That shouldn't happen. Even if I play poorly I can win with Sand on my team, simply because it's either "play with Sand or lose to Sand" in this meta. There is one other auto-Weather in this metagame and that's Hail, and Sand just outright dominates Hail so badly that it's laughable.
Sure, Aboma can switch into Hippowdon. But it's taking 25-50% on the switch plus it has to switch into either Toxic, Earthquake, or Roar, all of which will cause even more damage to the Christmas tree. Since it has no reliable recovery, Abomasnow gets about 2-4 safe switch-ins per match while Hippowdon can easily get ten+. Hippowdon's immense physical bulk, access to Roar to stop set-up Pokemon, Toxic to wear down bulky Pokemon, and Slack Off to basically prevent the opponent from wearing down Hippowdon.
Even statusing the hippo doesn't work because Hippo can just come in, change the weather, use Slack Off, and leave. In that time Toxic will have done a massive 6.25% total damage and Burn will do a whopping 12.5% thanks to Leftovers and (rather obvious) Sandstorm immunity.
In the end, playing against Sand in UU is almost impossible, and that's Hippowdon's fault. I don't like having to ban things, but Hippowdon is just too good to be UU. BL, please.
Rain Dance teams can clown all over Sand Teams, even without perma. I don't know if anyone is having really high success rates as far as laddering, but in the game its quite effective. Hippo will be weak to most of yr mons STABs, so you can usually get him out easier or scare him from switching in.
Overall, Hippowdon's sand is just as good as Hippopotas, just he's bigger. Overall, you still mostly have that 'useless' slot for the auto weather, and Stoutland and 4 other mons. Basically, Hippoutland makes so much sense it's ignorant not to make use of it.
Overall, Hippowdon's sand is just as good as Hippopotas, just he's bigger. Overall, you still mostly have that 'useless' slot for the auto weather, and Stoutland and 4 other mons. Basically, Hippoutland makes so much sense it's ignorant not to make use of it.
It really isn't that easy. I'm assuming you're talking about the average player? Because, I am by no means a "bad" player, and was hardly able to crack 1400 with Sand. Sand teams have many chacks out there, people just haven't gotten around to using them so much yet. It'll happen, and people will forget about sand being "broken".
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