Ferrothorn still has its godly typing (and screw the fact that its weak to Fighting too, it has resistances to so many things it makes up for it) over Ferrothorn, a superior ability (Sturdy's great and all, but if you're spinning with it, chances are Sturdy's already been broken), and just gets up Spikes more often. Sure Forretress can get out of Magnezone, but running Volt Switch means either you don't run a hazard you should be running or you're never going to do any damage ever, while Ferrothorn does pretty nice damage with Gyro Ball at key times (remember CBThorn craze? That shit actually worked, while a CB Forretress just sucks).
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General Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Matthew
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Volt Switch actually does damage to 3 common Forretress switchins, Jellicent, Gyarados and Starmie, and also helps whatever you Volt Switched into. For example, standard Jellicent takes 63.28% - 74.44% from Scarftar's Crunch, but factoring in Stealth Rock and Volt Switch, you could be looking at an OHKO.
Actually, Ferrothorn could be a Pseudo-AntiSpinner, Forretress doesn't, Iron Barbs and Rocky Helmet is the key. If a Pokemon using Rapid Spin dies taking damage from them, hazards will not be removed.
And this is why I am never using Life Orb Rapid Spin Starmie again...
And this is why we need better spinners :(
The metagame is so over-populated with hazards.
Can't get good spinner so I use Forrettress, oh look, I take a shit load from Iron barbs, he's slower than me and he keeps setting Spikes again so I keep taking damage.
Through some fortunate events, I get rid of Ferrothorn! Time to Spi- Oh wait, they got Jellicent :(
I really want Scrappy RS Miltank or a GOOD Fire/Fighting/Ghost type with Taunt and Rapid Spin <,<
I really hate how people stick Rocky Helmet on their Ferrothorn and call it a spin blocker. I'd much rather let my spinner to die to residue damage to spin away 3-6 layers of hazards and waste 3-6 of your turns. It's might also be better that my LO Starmie or something dies to Ferrothorn while its spinning, I can just bring something that can set up on Ferrothorn and gain momentum immediately.
At least we have Magic Bouncers. But I want a Magic Bouncer not afraid of Tyranitar. It is dangerous to keep Espeon/Xatu facing it and almost 50% a Pursuit/Crunch/Steath Rock
I thought 5th gen would provide us more Rapid Spinners, but it only gave us the ugly and useless Spinda, Uber mole and Cryogonal(who is good at Rapid Spinning... in RU and also fears Pursuit)
Or a identical move to Rapid Spin, and available by a more pokemon.
I thought 5th gen will provide us more Rapid Spinners, but it only gave us the ugly and useless Spinda, Uber mole and Cryogonal(who is good at Rapid Spinning... in RU and also fears Pursuit)
@ shrang, for that reason I call it a Pseudo-AntiRapidSpinner.
Oh yeah, one must not forget the frail Magic Bouncers with mediocre typings that can barely beat the #1 Spiker. Thank you, Game Freak.
If your spinner can beat Ferrotroll, it loses to Jellicent.
If your spinner can beat Jellicent, it still loses to Ferrotroll.
Magic Bouncers just plain lose to T-tar and can barely beat the Iron pringles combo of Jellicent and Ferrotroll.
Is GK useful for another pokemon?
I know BP, but it is dangerous to use Espeon to keep Tyranitar laying SR, and it is too common.
Xatu and Espeon can beat Ferrothorn barring the CB set, at least Xatu, it can stall the few eight PP of Gyro Ball with Roost, it is barely 3KO without Reflect and I am talking about the Standard Xatu. Espeon is 3KO with Power Whip and 252 HP/ 252 Def +Def I think, but Espeon has no instant method of healing, Sucky Sun with Tyranitars and Politoeds everywhere or Wish.
I know BP, but it is dangerous to use Espeon to keep Tyranitar laying SR, and it is too common.
Xatu and Espeon can beat Ferrothorn barring the CB set, at least Xatu, it can stall the few eight PP of Gyro Ball with Roost, it is barely 3KO without Reflect and I am talking about the Standard Xatu. Espeon is 3KO with Power Whip and 252 HP/ 252 Def +Def I think, but Espeon has no instant method of healing, Sucky Sun with Tyranitars and Politoeds everywhere or Wish.
Tyranitar can just set up Stealth Rocks again while you switch out. You can stay in, but then you have to play the prediction game of being KO'ed or just deflecting Rock again.
well ttar is most likely to use pursuit or crunch if an espeon switches in; you can then bp to something like [fighting type] to force ttar to switch. additionally, if you run gk (which 2hkoes jellicent, notably, although admittedly i would run psychic / sball / hp fire / bp) you can sac espeon to get ttar to the ko range of dugtrio
run starmie with HP Fire ;D
But in all seriousness, the lack of good spinners is unsettling, even more so because I really dislike rocks to begin with (the prevalence of SR alone makes several mons unplayable, and a lot more severely neutered). I run LO Starmie with Hydro Pump | T-Bolt | Recover | Rapid Spin, and I can say it's pretty much the best spinner around. OHKO on Gengar, 2HKO on Jellicent, Checks several speedy threats (CB Terra for example) Only problem is that lack of Ice Beam lets Lati@s and dragons in general set up (most won't try it due to how often Starmie carries Ice Beam, but still sucks when they figure it out)
I just wish there was something a bit more sturdy that wasn't complete set up fodder.
I run a magic bounce espeon with dual screens and morning sun on my sun team, Jellicent and ferrothorn cant touch it unless they get a gyro ball crit and you can just switch out to volcarona on the gyro ball and set up or ko.
Because i have a dugtrio i usually switch espeon into ttar to prevent rocks being set up if it looks like the most likely sr carrier on the team, they are usually too scared of dugtrio to attempt to ko it anyway
This can work for a Sun or Rain team, but you can't try this on a Hail team :P
I just use Forry, but even he can't deal with all the hazards some times, though I have pulled through and swept thanks to him.
Example:
-Opponent sets up SR and switches to Jellicent
-I use Volt Switch and turn to Froslass
-Whorelass sweeps his entire team with Blizzard + Shadow ball + Snow Cloak hax, allowing me to 3HKO his Scizor.
Unfortunately this is the worst gen for morning sun because of the two other weathers flying around :(
I've always used Espeon offensively since it has Gengar attacking stats. Why not used Xatu if it has reliable recovery and U-turn, which makes it IMO a better Dual-Screener?
Gengar usage drastically increased, and I could understand why. It's a perfect spin blocker for HO teams, keeping the offensive pressure intact while blocking Rapid Spin to keep hazards laid by Deoxys-S. I found ScarfGengar to be annoying, because they surprise kill my Rapid Spin Starmie handful of times. It's good to switch out to see if it is carrying LO, Choice Scarf, or Lefties. Non-scarf variants almost always Sub on the switch, so that would reveal the set immediately.
That's fine, but then you realize that you're using Xatu.
What happens when T-tar comes in? Same thing as with Espeon, except Espeon can at least hurt it a bit with GK or get out with BP.
Xatu can do those two things Espeon can do with a Super-Effective (albeit weak) U-turn.
Pursuit still hits for double damage against a uturning foe...baton pass dodges pursuit completely
Reflect/toxic? I mean, reflect on the switch in so he can't just laugh at you. Then it's a guessing game, but still. If you predict pursuit, toxic his ass.
Oh yeah, and predict his switch-in and u-turn him. With t-spikes support you can stall him out pretty easily, not to mention with reflected hazards.
Prediction goes both ways.
Please don't use it in an argument since he can "predict" my Toxic and Crunch my ass back.
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