Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion

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Bronzong can counter pretty much any set that deoxy's-s is running. None of his attacking moves do very much damage to him. If deoxys-s tries to taunt you, gyro ball will probably kill him. If he tries to set up on you, bronzong can either kill him with gyro ball (although I'm not sure if he'll still KO with reflect up) get rocks up, set up trick room, screens, etc.

I havent read this entire thread yet but i just wanna comment on a common arguement.

Even if Deoxys can be beaten by pokemon like Bronzong or cb nite, you are FORCED to assume that they will lead with Deoxys, or risk 3 layers of hazards. So you lead with your "counter" and they dont even lead with Deoxys. Just having a Deoxys on your team forces people to lead with their obvious Deoxys counter and you can take advantage of that. Most people dont even do that because Deoxys is so good that its often better to lead with him anyway because he is that hard to stop.

Deoxys=support clause=uber

Ill probably comment more tomorrow
 
As others have posted, there is no reason to ban deoxys based on the 4th gen characteristics of an uber, since those don't apply anymore.

eh, I'm guessing that's what you were referring to when you said "Deoxys=support clause=uber."
 
I havent read this entire thread yet but i just wanna comment on a common arguement.

Even if Deoxys can be beaten by pokemon like Bronzong or cb nite, you are FORCED to assume that they will lead with Deoxys, or risk 3 layers of hazards. So you lead with your "counter" and they dont even lead with Deoxys. Just having a Deoxys on your team forces people to lead with their obvious Deoxys counter and you can take advantage of that. Most people dont even do that because Deoxys is so good that its often better to lead with him anyway because he is that hard to stop.

Deoxys=support clause=uber

Ill probably comment more tomorrow

This, Deoxys is just too good of a support Pokemon. Pair it with HO, Shell Pass or even just use it as a lead, you can't know what's going to happen until you face it. Yes, you have team preview, but honestly, if the team is well built, you will not know what set it is.

Deoxys S is just too good of a support Pokemon, as well, it can run an menacing LO Revenge Killer set which catches people expecting the standard hazard set off guard.
 
I feel as if Deoxys-S is the glue that holds your cookie cutter team together. It can peform a plethora of sets, as discussed above, such as Dual Screens and LO Revenge Killer, and it can perform each of it's roles extremely well. It's like Batman's utility belt; without it he'd still be a muscular human being, but he could obviously not fight on par with the villans. A team of five HO sweepers would break down rather quickly without the padding that Deo-S brings, and the hazards which Deo-S can bring so easily are arguably the integral part of a Volt-Turning offense team, excluding the core itself.

Having said that, the question that I wish to pose to those who deeply dislike Deoxys-S is whether they dislike the Pokemon by itself, or the playstyles which are centered around Deoxys-S. One can easily argue that every Uber Pokemon we've voted so far has been because we've found the Pokemon, by itself, to be uber. (Garchomp had that bulk and Sand Veil, Shaymin-S and Deo-N/A were too strongth, Darkrai had accurate Sleep and NP with some bulk, etc). But I don't think that anyone can say Deo-S is Uber in it of itself. Perhaps this is only because Deo-S is more of a supporter than an offensive juggernaut, though I don't believe this gives grounds to make an exception. Therefore, the fault must be in the makeup of the team that Deo-S can support so well. KD24 has stated that "nothing" can really stand up to the teams that Deo-S facilitates once it has done its job, and some have said otherwise; and this is the question that I think is the main thing that should be consider when talking about Deoxys-S.

Assumming Deoxys-S does it's job on it's team (which it usually does, and can do multiple times), does the opposing team have a legitimate chance of stopping the other team, or is the advantage so significant that the other player may as well forfeit?

Yeah I know, this is just restating support clause or whatever it's called, but I don't think enough people are thinking about this. Sure, Deoxys-S gets hazards or screens up. But then what? The team with Deo-S may have five other Pokemon, but the opposing team has their own six Pokemon to play with. Six on six, that's always been how we played Pokemon. Is Deoxys-S so good at supporting the team that the other five members can effortlessly blast through the opposition regardless of the six Pokemon on the opposing team (much like the support Politoed gave to swift swimmers)? I cannot say that Deoxys-S wields this sort of power, and thus, in my eyes, Deoxys-S is not uber; at least, not for now.
 
This, Deoxys is just too good of a support Pokemon. Pair it with HO, Shell Pass or even just use it as a lead, you can't know what's going to happen until you face it. Yes, you have team preview, but honestly, if the team is well built, you will not know what set it is.

Deoxys S is just too good of a support Pokemon, as well, it can run an menacing LO Revenge Killer set which catches people expecting the standard hazard set off guard.

Far more often than not, when you see deoxys on a team with gorebyss, it's going to be a DS variant. If it happens to not carry dual screens, then you should little trouble dealing with gorebyss who has no screens to support itself or the pokemon it passes to.

The same can be said, though to a lesser extent, for HO teams. If they choose to forgo screens or hazards for a life orb set, the other pokemon on the team are going to find themselves less able to set up or wear down the opponent. Sure, you can never know beyond a shadow of a doubt what set it's running, but that statement can be said for most of the significant threats in the metagame.
 
@ Xephyr - Deoxys-S KO's Scizor with HP Fire. I don't know what metagame you're playing, but it's not easy killing Deoxys-S so quickly with the advent of these Spiker / pseudo-offensive sets.

To the person that asked whats stopping Rapid Spinners from killing Deoxys-S, with each of them you risk being killed by a respective move, meaning Deoxys-S will keep the hazards out more often than not. HP Fire / Thunder / Psycho Boost / Superpower are all viable options in the last two slots on a Deoxys-S, and it's gonna depend a bit on the metagame and how trends are going. I'm a stall player and I have trouble with Deoxys-S when I guess in theory I should be able to spin it's hazards away (and I'm ignoring the fact that the opposing team could have a ghost, that's irrelevant).

@ Aldaron - You want proof that a team of Deoxys-S and 5 sweepers is better than a team of 6 Pokemon, just look at the winning teams of your very own #pokemon challenges and then tell me what's the reason they are so successful. The answer is simple, Deoxys-S.
 
Well, you guys got rid of thundurus, swift swim+drizzle, and Excadrill... what did you expect?

In a metagame where unboosted Pokemon and Choice Scarfers are all at its mercy, Deoxys-S faces no challenges greater than it did in DPP. If DPPt Deo-S deserves to be banned, than BW Deo-S certainly deserves to as well. Even if things have gotten a "bit" stronger, in the face of Deo-S's speed, that really doesn't matter, it might as well be the same game.
 
Yea, ban it. Excadrilll isn't here to check it anymore, and now it outspeeds almost everything in the game except Scarf Terrakion with amazing coverage and surprising power. It's able to revenge/sweep/set up spikes on too much, and is just too versatile for the meta right now.
 
Alright, I think I've read enough of this now to make an argument of my own. First I'm going to address several arguments on both sides I have a problem with.

"He's not unpredictable, he only has 3 sets!"
What people mean here isn't that you can't predict the set, it's that you can't predict the coverage. The coverage is the issue people are complaining about. It's the fact you can't beat it with 100% certainty with anything you'd use anyway if Deoxys-S didn't exist.

"He's broken because he's so unpredictable!"
Yeah, I'm going both ways with this one. The other side of the coin is that its the COVERAGE that's so unpredictable. Basically, if you have something that can beat it, you will usually beat it because it can only cover a couple of its checks at a time. While it's annoying and frustrating to never be certain you can beat it, if you can beat it 90% of the time with that Starmie you're using anyway then it isn't an issue 90% of the time. Consistency is key to banning a Pokemon, and when you can beat it more consistently than it beats you then it's not a problem. If it's broken, it's not because of its unpredictability

"It isn't guaranteed to do X, you can use <insert obscure method here> to prevent it!"
It's irrelevant if something random and seldom used can stop it or not if that something isn't viable otherwise. If you're being forced to run something that would be nonviable if Deoxys-S didn't exist, then something is wrong. One Pokemon shouldn't force every team to run something specifically for it. That's why Excadrill was banned, and I fully agree with that idea.

"You HAVE to run <insert obscure pokemon/set here> to beat it!"
Equally as invalid as the above argument. There are multiple ways to beat every version, some less overall viable than others but there are ways. Hell, it turns out my team just doesn't have problems with Deoxys-S because I happen to have answers to each of its supports even without considering Deoxys-S in my team building process (this team was made prior Exca ban mind you). Like anything else, you just have to play smart around it.

"The hazards Deoxys-S sets up don't matter, you can just spin them away!"
Oh hell no. Have you actually TRIED spinning in this metagame? It's not just the spin-blockers either, oh no. It's the difficulty in finding a way to keep your damn spinner alive long enough to get its job done. Not to mention that usually after you KO Deoxys-S brining out your spinner right away just isn't in the cards, and every turn those hazards stay on the field is a turn the advantage slips to your opponent. So even if you do eventually spin them away, frequently your team is already damaged enough from them it doesn't matter.

"The ability to set up two layers of hazards almost guaranteed is too powerful!"
Well, it certainly puts you at a disadvantage but again its not insurmountable. If you're smart you can play around it, and if your team is so hazard weak you take oodles of damage before you can spin it away then your team has problems Deoxys-S or not. It's a similar situation if your team doesn't have a way of removing/preventing hazards; having some way of dealing with that has been standard since last gen if not before then. The bottom line is that having your opponent set up hazards should not be the end of your team even in a meta without Deoxys-S, so complaining that you're required to deal with them now is just whining.

"Life Orb Deoxys-S is piss weak and priority walks all over him!"
What Deoxys-S lacks in raw power it makes up for with spectacular coverage and untouchable speed. It not to be underestimated, as it's basically a scarfer with the ability to switch moves. If your opponent is playing it like a sweeper, then you're facing a bad player. If your opponent is using it to pick off weakened opponents (a job is does incredibly well) then it's doing it right. Finally, as pointed out by many on here, Deoxys-S has a lot more bulk than many people give it credit for. It can take most priority moves from full health (it helps that it resists the common fighting type ones), and if it's already weak enough that it's within KO range from priority chances are its already taken something out. The bottom line is underestimate Life Orb Deoxys-S at your own risk.

"Life Orb Deoxys is broken too! It can't be touched with that speed and surprise KOs everything!"
Again, unpredictability is not grounds for banning on its own. If you lose a pokemon to Life Orb Deoxys-S, it's usually your own fault for underestimating it. It's the same as any other surprise set; people don't act appropriately when it pops up so you net a kill. As for the speed, you can always just wall it, or if you're going high offense use priority. It's hardly unbeatable, and in no way falls under the old offensive clause. It can't sweep worth shit unless a team is already in shambles.

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So, now I'm sure you're wondering... where do I stand? You'd think I'd be on the fence judging from the above but you'd be wrong to assume that based just on that, because there's one thing I have not discussed yet... the Dual Screens set combined with High Offense. I never had trouble with it personally, but that's because it turns out Hydration Vaporeon shits all over High Offense, dual screens or no. Most people though aren't going to be using Hydration Vapreon, and as such will have a lot of difficulty with it. Can the play style be beaten? Of course. Can it be beaten without resorting to specific Deoxys-S counters? Yes it can, though not without a lot of skill and luck. The problem is that it's far too easy to just slap together a DS Deoxys-S + 5 sweepers team and blow your way to a high rating without any real effort at all. Now this could just be because people haven't adapted to the recent shifts to the metagame yet, and that if things are left unchanged things will balance out after a while without centralizing the meta. Or it could be because the support DS Deoxys-S provides is too overwhelming and makes only High Offense and teams directly made to counter High Offense viable. The only way to tell is time.

And that is my conclusion; this round of talk about banning Deoxys-S is just too soon. We haven't had enough time to adjust to the changes since the last suspect test yet. I say see where we are in another month and then make a decision. There's a reason why usage based tier changes are spaced out 3 months apart; the metagame takes time to stabilize after change, and making more changes before it stabilizes is counterproductive. Wait and see how things shape up first so we have a clearer picture of what state things are actually in. Then we can go about deciding whether it needs fixing or not, and how to fix it if it does need it.

TL;DR: Just read the last paragraph, that's the important bit.
 
Well, you guys got rid of thundurus, swift swim+drizzle, and Excadrill... what did you expect?

In a metagame where unboosted Pokemon and Choice Scarfers are all at its mercy, Deoxys-S faces no challenges greater than it did in DPP. If DPPt Deo-S deserves to be banned, than BW Deo-S certainly deserves to as well. Even if things have gotten a "bit" stronger, in the face of Deo-S's speed, that really doesn't matter, it might as well be the same game.

This is accurate as I would've liked to have read from someone else with a similar opinion to mine on the Deoxys-S matter.

Not to say individiually that Deoxys-S is uber and deserves to be banned because that's not the whole story. Without certain checks, we are forced to use Mirror Coat, Espeon/Xatu, or Starmie/Forretress and the fact BW is always developing, this whole charade of Light Screen/Reflect and Dragons galore is difficult to compete against without going down that route yourself.

If it was me, I'd rather unban most of the suspects but leave Swift Swim + DrizzleToed as far from each other as possible; that was undeniably broken. But for the sake of balance, Deoxys-S and what he brings to the table and the teams he is in as a whole, I just feel it is unhealthy for the BW metagame as it stands right now.

For the record, I would also like us to remove Wobbuffet as soon as possible now that the process has been narrowed down to just a select few who, yet still, are questionably too good for standard play.
 
Let's ban TTar because it has soooo many UNPREDICTABLE sets!
CBTar
ScarfTar
LeadTar
Boah
ChopleTar
CurseTar(even if it sucks)
DDTar

Seriously, let's unban Sand Force Excadrill and hazards can stop being a problem
 
Let's ban TTar because it has soooo many UNPREDICTABLE sets!
CBTar
ScarfTar
LeadTar
Boah
ChopleTar
CurseTar(even if it sucks)
DDTar

Seriously, let's unban Sand Force Excadrill and hazards can stop being a problem

Tyranitar is too slow and it's main weakness's are fair too commmon. Also Excadrill's ability is called Sand Rush. I don't see how this fits into a Deoxys-S tiering discussion.
 
Tyranitar is too slow and it's main weakness's are fair too commmon. Also Excadrill's ability is called Sand Rush. I don't see how this fits into a Deoxys-S tiering discussion as my IQ is 75 and don't know about the other abilities that doesn't make Exca "broken" and how he is the best spinner has to anything to do with a hazard pokemon.

Yeah, my mistake.
 
This is accurate as I would've liked to have read from someone else with a similar opinion to mine on the Deoxys-S matter.

Not to say individiually that Deoxys-S is uber and deserves to be banned because that's not the whole story. Without certain checks, we are forced to use Mirror Coat, Espeon/Xatu, or Starmie/Forretress and the fact BW is always developing, this whole charade of Light Screen/Reflect and Dragons galore is difficult to compete against without going down that route yourself.

If it was me, I'd rather unban most of the suspects but leave Swift Swim + DrizzleToed as far from each other as possible; that was undeniably broken. But for the sake of balance, Deoxys-S and what he brings to the table and the teams he is in as a whole, I just feel it is unhealthy for the BW metagame as it stands right now.

For the record, I would also like us to remove Wobbuffet as soon as possible now that the process has been narrowed down to just a select few who, yet still, are questionably too good for standard play.

Yep, and if rain and Lati@s eventually go, I'll say: Can we just go back to playing DPP already? Might as well it's like the same thing.
 
I'm of the opinion that Deo-S is broken and here's why. Now I play Stall and normally hazards aren't much of an issue but when Deo places them down, I know that at least two hazards are gonna be on my side of the field. So then I bring Tentacruel to spin hazards off and now I'm faced with two decisions: One, go ahead and try and spin or two, scout his move. Now if he Psycho Boosts, I can't stay in and have to switch out which causes more entry hazard damage. Then a sweeper can come in and now I have the decision of either spinning or letting him set up and sweeping my team.

It seems like an impossible win condition only because of the support Deo can provide. This situation gets even worse if you dont have a spinner. Just my two cents
 
I can tell not enough people are using Sableye, since it is a full stop to Deo, while also being an overall very good pokemon.
 
With Magic Coat being pretty popular, Sableye certainly isn't a 'full stop' to Deoxys-s at all.
 
I can tell not enough people are using Sableye, since it is a full stop to Deo, while also being an overall very good pokemon.

As PenguinX said, Magic Coat. What's Sableye going to do when it's taunted because its Taunt was blocked by Magic Coat? Use Knock Off? lol.

There's also Mental Herb available.
 
Regarding #1: It doesn't matter if Deoxys-S's occasional surprise offensive set plus two main support sets (hazards and screens) provide versatility, it only matters if this versatility makes (or contributes towards) Deoxys-S being broken. If it does, how? Is it actually impossible (or improbable) for teams to deal with all three sets without overspecialization? And if so, is the overspecialization that would be required to deal with Deoxys-S so specialized that it is actively bad against other strategies?

I think ToF and a few other players showed why versatility is extremely useful for Deoxys-S. When Deoxys-S can destroy the Pokemon that are on the short list of mons that straight up stop it by just switching around one or two moveslots, it's a real problem that is either going to make players afraid to stop Deoxys-S they way they think they should, or risk losing an important piece to dealing with a full Heavy Offense team.

Regarding #2: It doesn't matter if Deoxys-S is the best at setting up 2 layers (SR + 1 spikes) before going down. Convince me that mostly guaranteed SR + Spikes + 5 Pokemon is consistently more powerful than a standard team of 6 Pokemon.

This reminds me of when I was strict on UU paragraphs and made people show why easy spikes in DPP was so broken at the cost of one Pokemon heh (that one gave Heysup hell!). Once again I think this has been well shown that the amped up power of BW OU makes it that much harder to counter some of the stronger threats while hazards are up. Deoxys-S differentiates itself from the rest of the spikers/rockers in the game in that it can get SR/Spikes up in the first few turns, while potentially preventing your opponent from doing the same. Deoxys-S doing the spiking for heavy offense teams gives them the residual damage and the momentum that is just ridiculously hard to stop when you're taking some of the hardest hits in the game after Deoxys-S does its job.

Regarding #3: It doesn't matter if Deoxys-S is the best screener. Convince me that ability to set up Screens is consistently breaking games (though good luck on that one).

I think kd24 did a perfect job here of showing that just Dragonite behind screens knocks its counters in OU down to a pitiful number. Just look at all the mons that are already somewhat difficult to counter such as Dnite, Mence, and Terrakion. Taking down those mons rely on being able to take them down in one or two hits. Without that ability, Terrakion now beats Gliscor, and Dnite and Mence now beat bulky waters every time, and on top of that are much harder to revenge kill.

Clearly I'm starting to lean Uber. I can still be convinced the other way, but I think people have already answered Aldaron's questions very convincingly. On the other hand, I'm having trouble seeing a kind of consistent argument from the pro-OU side. From experience in this game, I KNOW that a well played Deoxys-S is going to do its job more often than not. I know that some of the pokemon that are supposed to counter it are going to be left high and dry when they get caught off guard with a specific cover move for that mon. Team Preview works both ways so I don't buy that. So I'm under the assumption that Deoxys-S is usually completing it's job at this point. The pro-uber side has shown that when it does that, it's normally gamebreaking. Is there anyone form the pro-OU side that wants to say that, even with no spinner or brick breaker, Deoxys-S completing it's job (hazards or screens) does not break the metagame.

This is kind of like what Aldaron is asking for, but I've seen the pro-uber side answer pretty convincingly that yes, Deoxys-S doing its job breaks the metagame. I want to see some evidence that it doesn't.
 
I think kd24 did a perfect job here of showing that just Dragonite behind screens knocks its counters in OU down to a pitiful number. Just look at all the mons that are already somewhat difficult to counter such as Dnite, Mence, and Terrakion. Taking down those mons rely on being able to take them down in one or two hits. Without that ability, Terrakion now beats Gliscor, and Dnite and Mence now beat bulky waters every time, and on top of that are much harder to revenge kill.

Clearly I'm starting to lean Uber. I can still be convinced the other way, but I think people have already answered Aldaron's questions very convincingly. On the other hand, I'm having trouble seeing a kind of consistent argument from the pro-OU side. From experience in this game, I KNOW that a well played Deoxys-S is going to do its job more often than not. I know that some of the pokemon that are supposed to counter it are going to be left high and dry when they get caught off guard with a specific cover move for that mon. Team Preview works both ways so I don't buy that. So I'm under the assumption that Deoxys-S is usually completing it's job at this point. The pro-uber side has shown that when it does that, it's normally gamebreaking. Is there anyone form the pro-OU side that wants to say that, even with no spinner or brick breaker, Deoxys-S completing it's job (hazards or screens) does not break the metagame.

This is kind of like what Aldaron is asking for, but I've seen the pro-uber side answer pretty convincingly that yes, Deoxys-S doing its job breaks the metagame. I want to see some evidence that it doesn't.

Okay, people are saying Azelf and Deoxys-S aren't comparable when they clearly are. Azelf can't use Superpower and Spikes. That, and the speed Deoxys-s has separate them from each other. Azelf, can use Natural Gift with a Salac Berry (idk why no one did in DPP, tbh Azelf didn't need a focus sash to guarantee SR is up) to get rid of Ttar so Superpower goes out the window. Is the speed difference really that much? Azelf already outruns all of OU as it is right now, barring Starmie and Deoxys-S. Using Scarftar to kill Azelf before it can do anything is outright begging to get swept by Terrakion, Dragonite, Lucario, SD Scizor, [insert sweeper here].

Also, Jabba, I bolded the part of your quote I'd really like to address. You said the screens Deoxys puts up are the reason the sweepers are difficult to handle. Notice how Deoxys is not the only Pokemon capable of providing that particular situation for the sweepers, so is it really Deoxys's fault or the screens?

Spikes aren't an issue. If you can't limit it to just one layer of Spikes and SR, then you have to look back at your team and see what you can change to deal with it instead of asking for a ban, because I honestly believe 1 layer of Spikes + Stealth Rocks + 5 Pokemon isn't as difficult to deal with as something like Rainstall or even Sun offense.

Edit: just realized Salac berry isn't even released, but my point is that Azelf isn't that much different from Deoxys-S. Same goes for other Screeners like Xatu, Espeon, and Alakazam. >.<
 
Also, Jabba, I bolded the part of your quote I'd really like to address. You said the screens Deoxys puts up are the reason the sweepers are difficult to handle. Notice how Deoxys is not the only Pokemon capable of providing that particular situation for the sweepers, so is it really Deoxys's fault or the screens?

I don't believe it's the screens. Rather it's how easily that Deoxys can get both up what with that huge speed and okay defenses. It's hard to 2HKO when behind the appropriate screen, which lets it get the other one up and die.
 
I don't believe it's the screens. Rather it's how easily that Deoxys can get both up what with that huge speed and okay defenses. It's hard to 2HKO when behind the appropriate screen, which lets it get the other one up and die.

The same can be said for the other Screeners, though. Latios and Uxie even have Memento as a bonus, and Uxie can set up SR.
 
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