Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion

[Alice]

I also agree with Taylor and Chou. I'm sure a lot of people are saying "fuck those ban-happy Smogoners, Deoxys-s was fine now, everybody's just banning the next best thing!" Quite simply, in the Thundurus / Excadrill metagame, Deoxys-s wasn't BROKEN. Excadrill was a fantastic spinner that was nigh impossible to block, and Deoxys was total set up fodder for Thundurus in this metagame anyway (which, as we can all remember, was NOT GOOD, you DID NOT want Thundurus getting to +2 or +4). Besides these obvious facts, the metagame of that time was simply less accommodating to hyper offense in general since Excadrill outsped everything. Deoxys-s is broken NOW, directly BECAUSE of the recent bannings.

This.


I haven't read the whole thread, so excuse me if this has been brought up before, but bw ou is starting to feel like deoxys-S dpp ou era, and I'm getting tired of taunt speedties defining games (just like ol' dppou) (so the one who can lay screens/hazards first turn is almost guaranteed to win, or at least gets a big advantage)

 

[Pocket]

I fail to see how that Thundurus is not owned by that same LO Psycho Boost Deoxys-S that people have been promoting - not the best example out there. Excadrill was really the big thing that kept Deoxys-S "in check" pre-round 5, although Deoxys-S was still a solid staple in HO team back then regardless.

And if you're getting tired of Speed ties, you should probably not resort to the standard heavy offensive tactics and try something more "anti-metagame" if you will. There are many ways around Heavy Offense if you don't restrict yourself to the same playstyle. HO has answers to opposing heavy offense anyways, as I posted just before you.

 

[alexwolf]

With rain support bronzong can take Hp fire very well. In the rain, I think bronzong wins the war against deoxys-s (even with reflect up).

Hp fire?Did you read what i posted?
Against DS Deoxys-S Bronzong fails miserably since it only 4hkoes behind Reflect.
I never talked about an other Deo-S with HP fire or something so i don't get you really...

@Pocket
You just mentioned one of the few ways to deal with DS Deoxys-S:
Setup sweepers!
But as you know if this matchup of Deo-S vs setuper does occur(the Deo-S user is not obliged to lead with Deo-S)the game goes entirely to prediction.
It is a 50-50 prediction game.
And for me it is even worse for the opponent since Deo-S is so threatening and doesn't give you room for overprediciton.It forces you to a corner in where taking risks is not always possible.

Finally if Deo-S does not lead it can easily come in after something dies and start setting up the screens while you don't have your setup sweeper in.

 

[Lee]

One of the solid way to answer Dual Screen Deoxys-S is firing off your offense first. Send out your Volcarona. It wants to LSCreen? Volcarona's going to set up on you. You could switch to your Terrakion / Dragonite, but Volcarona's going to still put a dent on either of them, breaking MultiScale on Dragonite, and now Scizor can BP them out. Deoxys-S can Taunt instead of Screens, only to get knocked out by Bug Buzz with no screens. Putting up both screen is not a guarantee against a competent team with useful offense. The scenario above can be played with many Sweepers, since Deoxys-S can't do anything back.

I'm not really sure that Volcarona comes out on top in this exchange if Deoxys-S chooses to Light Screen first turn.

something like...

turn 1

Deoxys-S used Light Screen
Volcarona used Quiver Dance/Volcarona used Bug Buzz (55-65%)

turn 2

assuming Volcarona used Bug Buzz on the first turn, just Reflect or SR or whatever and die. If he used QD, you're still at 100% so Taunt him incase he QD's again. Worst case scenario is he attacks for 81% - 96% leaving Deoxys free to set up Reflect or SR while you kill him.

either way, the Deoxys user has Reflect and Light Screen in play whereas you, in the best case scenario, have a +1/1/1 Volcarona fighting against a Light Screen which effectively means he's at -1 SpA while the opponent brings in whatever he wants to gain even more momentum.

so am i missing something or is there a scenario where the Volcarona user actually comes out on top here if Deoxys Light Screens and then isn't afraid to Taunt?

 

[Alice]

One of the solid way to answer Dual Screen Deoxys-S is firing off your offense first. Send out your Volcarona. Deoxys-S wants to LSCreen? Volcarona's going to set up on you. You could switch to your Terrakion / Dragonite afterward, but Volcarona's going to still put a dent on either of them, breaking MultiScale on Dragonite, and now Scizor can BP them out (no Reflect). Deoxys-S can Taunt instead of Screens, only to get knocked out by Bug Buzz with no screens. Putting up both screen is not a guarantee against a competent team with useful offense. The scenario above can be played with many Sweepers, since Deoxys-S can't do anything back.

Ok, let's go through this:

DS deoxys vs. volcarona:

Scenario 1: volcarona bug buzz, deoxys taunts = volcarona player wins
Scenario 2: volcarona uses bug buzz, deoxys Light screen = deoxys still has the advantage
scenario 3: Volcarona QD, deoxys taunts = gg's
scenario 4: volcarona QD, deoxys Light screens = deoxys STILL has the advantage

As you can see, there's only ONE scenario in which volcarona player gets a clear advantage, and guess what, it gets that advantage because he's now able to bring his own deoxys and setup screens to steamroll the opp.

If you want to take scenario 4 as advantageous for the opp as well, fine, we're back at a 50/50 cointoss, just like stupid taunt speedties.

 

[Pocket]

Thanks for your response, kd24.

kd24 - i dont see how its faulty - deoxys is guaranteed a screen basically unless its something like trick scarf azelf leading (idk) - this will in turn give it a second screen and then an entry hazard - the exception of this is as you said a set up sweeper

Having one screen up doesn't exactly sound like free set-up to me. No Reflect leaves your Dragonite prone to Bullet Punch / ExtremeSpeed / Scarf Terrakion. No Light Screen leaves you prone to Scarf Latios, Scarf Rotom-W, and Heatran for instance.

you mentioned volcarona but thats a list thats very short and there is no guarantee the deoxys user is leading with deoxys, especially if you're running volcarona - its the fact that deoxys sets up on such a large portion of the metagame that in fact, it can choose when to come in basically if the opponent has something risky like volcarona

Not just set-up sweepers, a mixed sweeper / all-out sweeper with reasonable power and versatility can also do the job, such as Latios, Landorus, or mixed Lucario. They can't kill Deoxys-S, but Deoxys-S can't do shit back either, so Deoxys-S ends up burning up Screen turns or risk switching one mon, who will get banged up despite the Screens.

its also to be noted that dual screen deoxys usually has taunt, which means its a 50/50 of if you set up or not - what happens when it taunts volca as you quiver dance and then it ls and then reflects or sr - isnt that the same scenario?

The fact that Deoxys-S isn't guaranteed to set up more than 1 Screen is a testament that it's not a fail-safe executioner of Dual Screens as the pro-Uber people have been claiming. Plus there's the whole issue of switching in these 5 Sweepers after Deoxys-S sets up, which is a problem I mentioned above.

the deoxys-s player isnt being pushed into a corner right away, i find your argument only pushing what i said as true - the opposing player is pretty much forced into a situation where if they have something to set up on deoxys, they are forced to lead with it, but because of deoxys speed and current situation in the meta, it can still set up a majority of things later.

The reasons why Deoxys-S is almost always a dedicated lead are 2-fold: 1) it facilitates a successful sweep. 2) It is not easy to bring it in afterwards. The longer Deoxys-S is delayed from setting up Screens and / or SR, the harder for the opponent to set-up and Sweep. If you are facing an opponent with a HO team, which has tons of set-up sweepers to deal with lead Deoxys-S, you are pretty much forced to lead with your Deoxys-S, since it wont have a chance to support the team once the opponent's sweeper gets rolling.

EDIT:
@ Lee & Alice:

If I use Volcarona, I'm definitely going to Bug Buzz turn 1. If the opponent is smart like you guys and puts up a Light Screen, I would go with QD to burn a turn in Light Screen. I'll probably keep Volcarona in play, hitting Deoxys-S with weak Hidden Power to stall out time. I will switch into my sweeper that can dish the heaviest damage to the opposing Sweepers when Deoxys-S sets up his third environmental factor. Whatever sweeper switching in after Deoxys-S wont be able to facilitate a sweep in the face of say a Latios or Starmie.

 

[melvni]

This may have been mentioned before, but there is at least one sure way to completely shut down Deoxys in the form of Trick/Switcheroo Scarfs from fast or prankster Pokemon (pranksters don't even have to use scarf). Since Max Speed Deoxys is outsped by Scarf Anything-Base-105-Or-Higher-With-A-+Speed-Nature (Lati@s, Froslass, Azelf, Alakazam (doesn't even need a +spd nature), Gengar, Starmie, Espeon, Persian, Whimsicott, Lopunny, Floatzel, Manectric, and Ambipom) and "outsped" by pranksters using non attacking moves (Sableye, Volbeat, Whimsicott again), it has no way of stopping an incoming trick/switcheroo from the lead position* bar switching out, which stops it from doing its job and leaves one of the Hyper Offense team's set up sweepers unable to set up. Yes, a lot of these aren't very good, but there are some gems in there. Bonus points in my book go out to Sableye since in this case using the typical response to Sableye (i.e. magic coat) actually backfires spectacularly, since Deoxys is now locked into a completely useless move.

*I think Pocket covered why it can always be assumed to be the lead

 

[tehy]

Melvni, the hazards set could just choice itself on spikes, come in somehow later and SR.

 

[melvni]

Melvni, the hazards set could just choice itself on spikes, come in somehow later and SR.

From what I've been seeing, the set people have been saying is the most problematic is the duel screen set, which isn't going to work if Deoxys is choice-locked. Besides, Froslass, Azelf, Alakazam, Gengar, Persian, Whimsicott, Floatzel, Ambipom, and Sableye all have Taunt to get past that issue, though I admit that in most cases using two moveslots for Taunt and Trick might be a bit much (definitely don't see a problem with it on Sableye since the only moves it really needs generally are Recover/WoW/Taunt, the others might have a bigger problem). I'm also pretty sure a bunch of them get Magic Coat (though that faces the same issues as Taunt), and you can always switch in a Magic Bouncer at that point to make the hazard count 1/1.

Edit: Just realized non-prankster taunt won't outspeed after Trick. The point still stands though since you have Prankster Taunt, Magic Coat, and Magic Bounce to send back or stop those spikes. In addition, if you send in a rapid spinner Deoxys can no longer smash it with whatever attack it's running, since in the situation you gave it's locked into another move. Also, a choice locked spiker seems a prime opportunity for sending in a set up sweeper of some sort.

 

[Raikaria]

If it's Dual Screens that's the problem like most people are saying, people are just going to switch over to DS Azelf who can do the same job as Deoxys-s, but with a much greater offensive presence (isn't this familiar...*Gen 4 OU*).

Dual Screens Deoxys-s is difficult to deal with, but by no means impossible to beat unless you yourself are running Hyper Offense, which seems to be the case for most people screaming Uber. Like Pocket said, it has versatility, but it can only use one set, and that set is often given away at team preview (if you see deo and 5 sweepers it's pretty safe to guess it's setting up screens and hazards). Lead with your Starmie. If it happens to get KOed, cool, set up a sweeper and finish their team.

DS Azelf can actually be outsped. It's possible to prevent it from setting up. To semi-guarentee a screen up, requires you to use Focus Sash, which means you only have 5 turns.

If you're using Light Clay, you can just lead with Scizor and OHKO it with Bullet Punch, or throw something like Aerodactyl at it and Taunt it before it can set up.

You can counter DS Azelf. You cannot prevent DS Deo-S, except with a Prankster Taunter.

 

[Alchemist Fullmetal]

I feel like this is 4th gen again, with x checking and countering y, but then x got banned so y can do more now.
Like Latias and Salamence in gen 4.

 

[complete legitimacy]

From what I've been seeing, the set people have been saying is the most problematic is the duel screen set, which isn't going to work if Deoxys is choice-locked. Besides, Froslass, Azelf, Alakazam, Gengar, Persian, Whimsicott, Floatzel, Ambipom, and Sableye all have Taunt to get past that issue, though I admit that in most cases using two moveslots for Taunt and Trick might be a bit much (definitely don't see a problem with it on Sableye since the only moves it really needs generally are Recover/WoW/Taunt, the others might have a bigger problem). I'm also pretty sure a bunch of them get Magic Coat (though that faces the same issues as Taunt), and you can always switch in a Magic Bouncer at that point to make the hazard count 1/1.

Edit: Just realized non-prankster taunt won't outspeed after Trick. The point still stands though since you have Prankster Taunt, Magic Coat, and Magic Bounce to send back or stop those spikes. In addition, if you send in a rapid spinner Deoxys can no longer smash it with whatever attack it's running, since in the situation you gave it's locked into another move. Also, a choice locked spiker seems a prime opportunity for sending in a set up sweeper of some sort.

If you have to use obscure counters to try and stop something, then you're only helping the pro-Uber argument. It's kind of like a Thundurus situation all over again. Gastrodon came up from the depths of RU all the way to OU just because it countered most Thundurus sets. But then again, Thundurus could always run HP Grass.

You may think that Deoxys and Thundurus aren't comparable, but give it time and you'll find out that they are. I still feel Deoxys is Uber, but if we want to take a step back and reevaluate this later, I guarantee that some obscure counters to Deoxys will become at least close to OU usage.

 

[Xephyr]

Watch the first turn of this replay:

http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-PozoAlmonte-vs-XephyR--2011-11-17

I figured that since most Deoxys I've seen use Superpower and HP Fire, that I would go with Rotom-W cause it has the ability to 2HKO the bastard and it was the best chance I had at limiting it to as little hazards as possible.

If it was a DS Deoxys, I was even more fucked.

But nope, all I get is a dead Rotom and a huge disadvantage to start the game. Looking back, Heatran was probably a better decision since Superpower doesn't do a whole lot of damage to him since he's so bulky, but the fact remains that a regular ol' Deoxys lead can just kill a Rotom without even caring.

I still won, but man was it hard to recover.

 

[MetaGross66]

Thing is, why would you lead with Rotom if you knew you had something better equipped for handling Deoxys? If anything, that disadvantage at the beginning was your fault. I doubt you looked at team preview to see that the rest of his team is filled with bulky mons like Celebi, blastoise, and reuniclus. Therefore, the DS set was out of the question so what was your reasoning for pitting Rotom into a Pokemon that is known for being able to OHKO it when there was a better response for the suspected set?

Yes, Azelf can be outsped, but it's not the only DS user out there. There are more that have advantages that Deoxys-S doesn't such as Magic mirror and Memento to name a few. If it's the DS set that is being targeted as a Uber, then why is it just Deoxys and not the other DS users as well since they can provide the same situation DS Deoxys can consistently, too.

 

[Alchemist Fullmetal]

Thing is, why would you lead with Rotom if you knew you had something better equipped for handling Deoxys? If anything, that disadvantage at the beginning was your fault. I doubt you looked at team preview to see that the rest of his team is filled with bulky mons like Celebi, blastoise, and reuniclus. Therefore, the DS set was out of the question so what was your reasoning for pitting Rotom into a Pokemon that is known for being able to OHKO it when there was a better response for the suspected set?

Yes, Azelf can be outsped, but it's not the only DS user out there. There are more that have advantages that Deoxys-S doesn't such as Magic mirror and Memento to name a few. If it's the DS set that is being targeted as a Uber, then why is it just Deoxys and not the other DS users as well since they can provide the same situation DS Deoxys can consistently, too.

Because Deoxys-S has the fastest Taunt, access to both forms of entry hazards, and can even eliminate some of his own counters. Azelf is frail, Bronzong is slow enough to get Taunted by practically anything, Espeon is physically frail, etc.

 

[MetaGross66]

Okay, but you didn't address the bulkier DS users Uxie and Deoxys-D. Tbh, I've been able to set up screens with them more consistently than I have been able to with Deoxys-S; sometimes I'd even get both screens up twice in a match.

 

[Raikaria]

Okay, but you didn't address the bulkier DS users Uxie and Deoxys-D. Tbh, I've been able to set up screens with them more consistently than I have been able to with Deoxys-S; sometimes I'd even get both screens up twice in a match.

Both are also slow enough to get Taunted without any real issues.

Or KO'ed before they can actually set up [Although, to be fair, it does take quite a hit to OHKO Uxie]

 

[Ningildo]

Uh, you guys DO realize Deoxys-S is outsped by positive natured base 105's with a Scarf, right?
Saying Azelf and co are outsped by scarfers is one thing, but the reverse is also true.
And don't come saying that it's a "obscure" method, it's much more viable now with Exca's ban. As for stall teams, they have a bit less options, but Whimiscott and Xatu can help. Or just force it out with a Dragon Tail and start crippling stuff.

 

[MetaGross66]

Both are actually pretty fast, as I run max speed when using them. Also, nothing in OU that outspeeds them (infernape, Mienshao, Terrakion, Virizion, etc) runs taunt. Unless you're talking about lolaerodactyl and crobat again. -.-

 

[X5Dragon]

I'm gonna put this in simple words, banning usually focuses on pokemon that over centralizes the metagame (by either packing certain counters that weren't OU before or pairing him with other non OU pokemon because of his power) or cannot be stopped from doing it's job.

Deo-S is both these things. For example, the only real counters to Deo leads that completely stop it from doing it's job at laying hazards/dual screens is Espeon and..well that's it. You could run Mental Herb Jolly/Timid Deo and bet on the speed tie to favor you, but then again there's no telling whether or not it's gonna use SR instead of taunt anyway.

Also, after laying down hazards scarf Terra will be there to wear down your team or Scarf Gengar will take down your spinner and then it's all over really.

We have two solutions, either Ban Deo-S or bring back Thundurus, yes you read that correctly bringing back an Prankster that can actually be used in OU is a solution.

 

[MetaGross66]

I'm gonna put this in simple words, banning usually focuses on pokemon that over centralizes the metagame (by either packing certain counters that weren't OU before or pairing him with other non OU pokemon because of his power) or cannot be stopped from doing it's job.

Deo-S is both these things. For example, the only real counters to Deo leads that completely stop it from doing it's job at laying hazards/dual screens is Espeon and..well that's it. You could run Mental Herb Jolly/Timid Deo and bet on the speed tie to favor you, but then again there's no telling whether or not it's gonna use SR instead of taunt anyway.

Also, after laying down hazards scarf Terra will be there to wear down your team or Scarf Gengar will take down your spinner and then it's all over really.

We have two solutions, either Ban Deo-S or bring back Thundurus, yes you read that correctly bringing back an Prankster that can actually be used in OU is a solution.

How is it overcentralizing? It didn't force people to use Espeon or even Brick Break on their Scizors. Most people that are using Espeon are using it in tandem with Baton Pass. It's not like people are resorting to mixnite to deal with it like in Gen 4 or using Scarf base 105 Pokemon.

Second of all, it can be stopped. Like Ningildo said, Zoroark can stop it before it gets a screen up with a Scarf Night Daze/Dark Pulse. Illusion only helps it accomplish this goal. Things like CBnite and CBScizor can limit it to one screen. Spiritomb can also limit it to one screen. Infiltrator is just a bonus.

Oh no. You want to bring more instability to this metagame? Thundurus was broken as hell. You can tell by the recent drop in Gastrodon usage, too.

 

[X5Dragon]

So...basically you are using pokemon that were in Gastrodon's league for the sole purpose of stopping it, and we are talking about non sash'd versions which are a minority at the moment?

Yeah.


Edit: Prepare for a Espeon/Natu overload in the following weeks, it's already begun.

Edit2: To those suggestion leading with Volca or any other SE user against Deo, What are you gonna do when Volca kills it after setting up a relevant screen and then sending out Nite/Terra and set up on you? What's a Volca gonna do at +1 or 2, assuming no taunt against these two? Better yet, what are you gonna do when it sets up SR and sends a lum nite/terra after you? And if you try to spin it away to allow Volca another appearance, there comes Scarf Gengar.

 

[MetaGross66]

Who cares if it's a minority so long as you guys think it's broken? The sash set has nothing on the DS set, and most people can agree with that.

Also, those Pokemon are in Gastrodon's league. However, I was proving a point: it is stoppable. Xephyr didn't mention how it had to be done. ScarfZoroark itself is a fantastic revenge killer with its ability to disguise itself combined with its coverage. Is there anything wrong with that?

I'm not seeing any Espeon yet. -__-

Edit: How did people stop it in 4th gen. They adapted and used things like Mixnite (still viable). Why not try it? I mean, if I remember correctly, it wasn't the hazards set that pushed it into Ubers in the 4th gen. It was some wierd Cosmic Power stalling set that frustrated people. I haven't seen one since....

Edit 2: Lucaroarkz, read the previous posts please. :/

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Who cares if it's a minority so long as you guys think it's broken? The sash set has nothing on the DS set, and most people can agree with that.

Also, those Pokemon are in Gastrodon's league. However, I was proving a point: it is stoppable. Xephyr didn't mention how it had to be done. ScarfZoroark itself is a fantastic revenge killer with its ability to disguise itself combined with its coverage. Is there anything wrong with that?

I'm not seeing any Espeon yet. -__-

What does Scarf Zoroark have to do with this?

Edit: MetaGross66, last time I checked Zoroark is UU and people tend to only bring up OU Pokemon as "checks" to Deoxys-S.

 

[ssbbm]

Who cares if it's a minority so long as you guys think it's broken? The sash set has nothing on the DS set, and most people can agree with that.

Also, those Pokemon are in Gastrodon's league. However, I was proving a point: it is stoppable. Xephyr didn't mention how it had to be done. ScarfZoroark itself is a fantastic revenge killer with its ability to disguise itself combined with its coverage. Is there anything wrong with that?

I'm not seeing any Espeon yet. -__-

Edit: How did people stop it in 4th gen. They adapted and used things like Mixnite (still viable). Why not try it? I mean, if I remember correctly, it wasn't the hazards set that pushed it into Ubers in the 4th gen. It was some wierd Cosmic Power stalling set that frustrated people. I haven't seen one since....

Edit 2: Lucaroarkz, read the previous posts please. :/

i agree with everything except i don't think a cosmic power set caused deo-s to be uber...