Uh, we are talking about if we should ban Deoxys-S or not and whatever has to do with that. Nothing else.
And that doesn't even do what Deoxys-S does, so that makes it even more redundant.
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Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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And that doesn't even do what Deoxys-S does, so that makes it even more redundant.
I understand that Deoxys-S is possible to manage, as Pocket and others have pointed out. What I'm going to say is that the fact that every team either has to play Deoxys-S and hope to get lucky/out predict or else play a sub-par pokemon that can deal with Deoxys-S and do little else beyond that in and of itself is not a desirable characteristic of a metagame.
If Palkia was OU, it could still be 'managed' by Chansey or Empoleon, or Ferrothorn. But then you'd have to run one of these pokemon on every team and that would be bad. Nitpick this example at the risk of sounding dumb.
If Palkia was OU, it could still be 'managed' by Chansey or Empoleon, or Ferrothorn. But then you'd have to run one of these pokemon on every team and that would be bad. Nitpick this example at the risk of sounding dumb.
Point taken. I've now found a Pokéon that can revenge-KO it from full health with both screens up in a single move.
It's simple, really: After your previous teammate has fallen, you switch in your trusted Max. Atk Ursaring, and land on the enemy's Toxic Spikes to activate Guts. Then Deoxys-S tries to attack you, and would have killed you with Superpower hadn't it been for your Sash. Then, all you have to do is Metronome and get Explosion. Even with the nerf this generation, it will deal 120% damage to Deoxys and KO. Guys, we have a counter! Sure, Ursaring will succumb to the poison shortly afterwards, but it will have shut off Deoxys once and for all.
I expect a massive rise in Ursaring usage starting the instance I hit the "Submit Reply" button.
On a serious note, though: How would an eventual ban of Deoxys-S affect the metagame? As some have said, Volcarona could be "the next big thing" as Stealth Rock is becoming less prominent. It's true that the fire moth can be kept in check with some rain, though, and given the popularity of rain and Rock types, Volcarona isn't likely to be banished to the realm of cover mascots and unbalanced power creeps. Also, Stealth Rock is such a good move that somebody will find a spot for it. The metagame's harshest spinner is gone too, so the conditions are just right for the rocks.
Fragile hard-hitters and flying types would also be affected. The former will see less usage, while the latter will rise. Rocks, Screens and all that gone. There are probably lots of other factors playing in as well, and I can't possibly predict a fraction of them. Scarf down? Priority becoming less popular? Poison Barb on the rise?
Guess I should just shut my mouth now... keep up the interesting discussion, folks!
The probability of that happening is like 1/600. Never mind the fact that it would be too late if you already are too late if your opponent has gotten down Toxic Spikes. Or that Deoxys doesn't get it. Or that it's a niche. Seriously if you have to think of things like that to stop it then it's broken.
Yes, it is possible to manage.
This is where I disagree. CB Scizor and Mixnite are not subpar Pokemon. CB Scizor has cemented itself as the premier momentum grabber and revenge killer in OU alongside Rotom-W. Mixnite, while not making as big a splash in the metagame, has the potential to if people use it. Extremespeed, its bulk, and MS are all it needs to separate itself from Salamence. And no, no one can say Salamence outclasses it because they fill different roles. Salamence can't get the kill on that ScarfPolitoed that just KOed it with an Ice Beam. Salamence can't beat that Chopletar that just KOed it with Ice Beam/Stone Edge. Mixnite is a multipurpose Pokemon. It is not relegated to the role of being "just a check to Deoxys-S". Use it, and you'll know.
I also said somewhere I don't like to repeat myself so this is the last time I'm saying it, Salamence is not hitting as hard as Mixnite because it has to run a +speed nature and Speed EVs to be more effective, whereas Dragonite can afford to run a +offense nature because of its bulk. Extremespeed makes a huge difference as well. Say Salamence gets a kill on something like Skarmory. The opponent can now send in Latias to finish you off or force you to take SR damage and die/weaken you to the point anything can finish you off. With Dragonite, you have the option of staying in to deal ~40-50% damage to that Latias with Extremespeed. I've found most things that come in to revenge kill it don't take Extremespeed well.
Oh, and about your example. Deoxys is not comparable to Palkia in any way. Does it force you to run Espeon/Xatu or risk getting swept? No. You can stall out those screen turns with a good stall team (phazing, status, Taunt, etc.) and possibly even spin the hazards away. They send in a Gengar, trap it. Who uses a Spinner without a trapper/some way to beat the Ghost?
I said it many times but you still get it wrong.
CB Scizor doesn't counter Deoxys-S.
It only 2hkos somewhere around 20% of the time with BP.It also never gets 2hkoed if you put 40 evs in defense.
So most of the time it will setup both screens or 1 screen and 1 hazard and you call this a win?
MixMence does not run a speed-boosting nature. Its special moves hit harder with like 170 Sp. Atk than Dnite does with max. Also, those examples mentioned above aren't great because Dragonite can't get those kills either because, guess what, Multiscale is broken because of Life Orb damage. That's even more stupid if you decide not to run LO because that makes Dnite even more outclassed than it already is. While MixNite is a good Pokemon, it is still outclassed by MixMence, and it always will be.
MIxnite is not outclassed by Mixmence.
They play different.If you want to compare them go and actually try Mixnite especially one with Hurricane.
Anyway let's end this matter since we are off topic.
lol Politoed doesn't KO with Ice Beam because it outspeeds and hits Dragonite with MS. Draco Meteor then KOs and Dragonite takes 10%. LO only breaks MS if you move first. Dragonite doesn't move first in both scenarios. And yes, most Mixmence run a Speed boosting nature to outspeed Pokemon like "Darmanitan, Haxorus, Hydreigon, and timid Rotom-A," as stated in its analysis.
CB Scizor can also U-turn to something like CB nite so....ya. lol
Edit:
I agree, though the Hurricane set has been a little underwhelming for me... :P We'll save that discussion for another day. ;)
Edit 2: Pele, I just explained why it isn't outclassed in the last page. One of my posts have a link. Read it please. Mixnite isn't a "niche counter". It's a viable mon unlike Gastrodon. With EQ/Brick Break, Dragonite isn't walled by either of them. ;)
Theres this thing called sarcasm, noted by the fact he ended the ursurang rant with "On a more serious note"
Also, while I'll admit Mixnite is a viable counter to DeoS, so was Gastrodon to Thunderus, or Skarmory to Excadrill, or Slowbro to Blaziken. You shouldn't have to run sets just to counter one pokemon. Almost everybody would rather use DDnite or Parashufflenite than Mixnite, purely because in all but a few circumstances, it is outclassed by Mixmence. Not to mention most mixnites run Inner Focus to have access to superpower if they don't want to be walled by Heatran or Tyranitar. If a pokemon (DeoS) requires you to run outclassed or niche sets to counter it, its broken.
I'm sorry, but is MixNite even good outside of rain? MixMence can work outside of rain, it also doesn't need to run a +speed nature to outspeed Adamant Lucario. That should end this conversation. Also, yes, the opponent can send out Latias or something after Salamence gets a kill, but have you ever heard of something called switching out?
On the subject of Deoxys-S... Its bulk actually isn't that bad, so it's not like every hit you throw at it will kill it For example, Bullet Punch doesn't OHKO and won't even 2HKO if Deoxys has enough bulk. You send in Tentacruel thinking "oh free rapid spin lololololol" and get hit by a Life Orb-boosted Psycho Boost. There goes your Tentacruel.
MixNite might be able to handle it pretty well, but Gastrodon could handle Thundurus pretty we - Oh fuck, that Thundurus has Grass Knot! Also, as I said before, MixNite simply doesn't work on non-rain teams and DDNite and Parashuffler are just better. It's pretty hard to outspeed it without using a Choice Scarf user with 105 base speed and positive nature, and the only one of those that's even used commonly is Terrakion. On the other hand, Azelf, Jirachi, and Latios are outsped by almost anything with a Choice Scarf, so they're a lot easier to deal with.
On the subject of Deoxys-S... Its bulk actually isn't that bad, so it's not like every hit you throw at it will kill it For example, Bullet Punch doesn't OHKO and won't even 2HKO if Deoxys has enough bulk. You send in Tentacruel thinking "oh free rapid spin lololololol" and get hit by a Life Orb-boosted Psycho Boost. There goes your Tentacruel.
MixNite might be able to handle it pretty well, but Gastrodon could handle Thundurus pretty we - Oh fuck, that Thundurus has Grass Knot! Also, as I said before, MixNite simply doesn't work on non-rain teams and DDNite and Parashuffler are just better. It's pretty hard to outspeed it without using a Choice Scarf user with 105 base speed and positive nature, and the only one of those that's even used commonly is Terrakion. On the other hand, Azelf, Jirachi, and Latios are outsped by almost anything with a Choice Scarf, so they're a lot easier to deal with.
It needs to run Speed EVs to outspeed Lucario, though. That alone is taking out of one of its offenses. Is it Attack or Special attack? Which ever one it is, I'm sure Dragonite has a higher stat in it. I also addressed switching out. You can do that, but the Salamence is SR weak, holding a Life Orb, could even be taking Sandstorm damage, etc. I doubt you have tried mixnite this gen. Go ahead and do that before saying Salamence outclasses it. I have used both. And unlike Thundurus who could beat Gastrodon with Grass Knot, Dragonite is not losing to Deoxys anytime soon.
Seriously, you guys have yet to give me any evidence mixmence outclasses mixnite outside of "its offensive stats are higher". I've refuted this claim over and over. >.>
Not like Dragonite isn't SR weak.
You're using him in the lead position... -.-
Edit: and think about it. What else is setting up SR for you if you have a Deoxys-S. >.>
Edit: and think about it. What else is setting up SR for you if you have a Deoxys-S. >.>
So which is it, are you running 2 Deo-S or a LO set that is for some reason bulky and setting up hazards?
-cracks knuckles-
Chansey? Yea, that walls the shit out of every Uber.
Empoleon? Every Palkia runs Thunder/ Aura Sphere
Ferrothorn? Every Palkia runs Fire Blast/ aura Sphere
So we're down to Chansey... so every specially-based Uber bar Mewtwo should be OU now? Sounds good bro.
Again, what are you doing with Brick Brack after beating Screens?
That's not what I was saying. What happens when you make an incorrect prediction and send in your Tentacruel against what you think is a hazards setter, only to get fucked by a Life Orb boosted Psycho Boost?
What happens when you make an incorrect prediction and send in your Rotom-W against what you think is a Support Jellicent, only to get screwed by a Choice Specs boosted Water Spout?
Oh, I guess Jellicent must be broken then. Ban it!
I'm personally divided over Deoxys-S. I think that the set that might push it toward Uber is the Dual Screen set, as it allows for such easy set-up of others (hyper offense is everywhere, ugh), whilst not dying in a single hit (like the other sets do). I mean, all Dual Screeners have that same quality, but Dexoys-S's speed and access to Taunt kinda set it apart. I never really agreed with the Support Clause last Gen, and therefore I don't really think Deo-S is broken, and thus my opinion should be that it should remain OU. Because, as Lolcat loves to remind us, that is smogon's philosophy. But even though I don't think it's broken, I'm still a self-absorbed human. I want Deo-S gone because I think (I'm obviously not certain, but I do think) it would lead to a more fun metagame to play. Fun is subjective as crap (a lot of people love this meta), and it's not what we should be aiming for with our metagame. But it's why I want Deoxys-S gone.
edit: Guys, I just thought of the best way to troll Deoxys-S. Choice Band Volcarona. While it sets up Light Screen, you U-Turn for the OHKO. Or you OHKO it after it gets up one hazard. And you always survive a Life Orb Psycho Boost from full health! I mean, CB Volc would suck, but it would troll Deo-S like no tomorrow!
Right, Scarf pokemon are totally sub-par.
And what kind of comparison is that?
Have you SEEN Palkia's stats?
Palkia doesn't even have to invest in defenses to be a bit bulky, has a base 150 Sp Atk stat and great Water/Dragon STAB.
And they are played entirely different.
You do NOT need two counters for Deoxys-S.
Heck, you could just play around it, with crappy base 95 offenses.
Palkia, on the other hand, has a base 150 Sp Atk AND a a move of equal power, but greater neutral coverage. The only thing it has higher than Palkia is Speed. Don't make stupid comparisons.
Back on subject, still waiting on the answer that 1 hazard/screen can change the entire battle. How does that happen?
You know, you're right. -calmly pushes Ferrothorn, Blissey, Cloyster, Heatran, Lucario, Magnezone, Scrafty, and Ttar behind something-
This.
Almost every competitive team carries Stealth Rock, and some of them, (Toxic) Spikes but few teams carry Screens.
But I think the best option to deal against Deoxys-S screener is using Dragon Tail, yes the alien will always set up at least 1 screen, but you can lose time of that needed Screen by the opponent's team by Dragon Tailing and Recover/Roost since it's likely the other members need to setup at least 1 turn to do significant damage.
So it's worth for Nidoking (as an example) to run Brick Break just for that?
Also (forgot who posted this) Brick Break no longer removes Light Screen and Reflect if the target is a Ghost-type.
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