This is why Lum Berry is standard on a lot of HO mons, being used on more than just Dragons using Outrage.
The difference between Deoxys and those Pokemon is that Deoxys has a coverage move for almost everything.
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Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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This is why Lum Berry is standard on a lot of HO mons, being used on more than just Dragons using Outrage.
The difference between Deoxys and those Pokemon is that Deoxys has a coverage move for almost everything.
Yeah, I remember he used a lum berry on his haxorus and I think on his Dragonite, too. He switched Haxorus in on Toxic thus nullifying it. He was forced to switch out his Deoxys because of Encore (I toxiced the turn after to nullify any lum berrys or cripple a sweeper). I then Encored his DD I think. Either that or I burned the Haxorus with scald while it DDed (it did eventually get burned because I spun with Tentacruel on his haxorus (taking a crapton of damage from EQ in the process but that's beside the point) after he switched it out and brought it in the second time). My point is, Lum berry is a one time use. If it gets used, there's a good chance an Outrage user will kill itself with confusion or suffer from other status.
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I feel it's quite ironic actually. Excadrill was THE Deo-S check, but now that it's been banned, Deoxys might face it too. Who knows what'll be next?
Deo-S won't be banned, a lot of player think that way.
The next thing discussed should be baton pass, that move got a simple majority last suspect test, so the discussion should come really soon.
can someone please take this post seriously and then apply the same logic to azumarill and how effective in rain it can be when revenge killing blaziken 100% of the time with no drawback whatsoever, or severely denting thundurus/chomp and ohkoing excadrill all the way to the grave with priority aqua jet. a select few suspects dealt with relatively easy by highlighting just one pokemon.
i think for us to leave deoxys-s unbanned because we are saying the support is not broken itself would be like saying excadrill could set up swords dance yet still get no where assuming you had say cbape in your sun team!
still, if deo-s survrives and shell smash also, i would assume we are not as careful with the metagame as id like to think. those two help create an unfair advantage vs balanced teams that rely on a phazer to deal with baton pass. next thing you know, you may as well have used brave bird vs that espeon now because chances are its likely going to recieve a fine set of boosts to its stored power. assuming you brave bird, that jirachi really appreciated those 2 staged boosts in 3 different stats and will take full advantage from there.
Azumarill couldn't OHKO Blaziken in the Sun, and quite often Blaziken was used with Sun support.
Also, Azumarill's Aqua Jet isn't exactly a stealthy, unexpected move. People just switch out to a Water Resist/Abosrber.
It's the same reason why Skarmory dosen't counter Excadrill. All Skarm does is force it out with WW, take ~40% damage, and then when Excadrill next comes in, Skarm is KO'ed before it can WW, or, if it comes in after a KO, risks Rock Slide flinch killing it.
The point for the rest of the post still stands, however. If a pokemon forces you to run something specific, then it's broken. Like Excadrill forced you to run Gliscor or a weather changer. Like Blaziken forced you to run Azumarill, Slowbro [Who was technically only a check due to Shadow Claw] or a weather changer.
On the other hand, Dragonite does force you to run Stealth Rock/Toxic/Burn/Other forms of passive damage to keep Multi-Scale down, but how many teams don't have at least one form of passive damage?
I'd like to clarify my previous statement about what I think a balanced metagame should be like. I didn't mean artificially reduce a playstyles potential (for example ban all rock users from sand because ice types in hail don't get the same spD boost as they do) but rather remove what makes it unstopable and we clearly have demonstrated that you cannot stop the support deos.
Of course a lot of the pro OU camp will say blah blah is nexta nd the cycle will never stop, for example nite. Nite is stopable and it doesn't force me to favor a single playstle or pokemon that won't have any other use other than being a nite slayer.
People predicted the dual screens, HO onslaught during the excadrill thread, please if you have any such predictions of the next broken thing that meets the criteria if deo gets banned theb our camp is all ears.
Of course a lot of the pro OU camp will say blah blah is nexta nd the cycle will never stop, for example nite. Nite is stopable and it doesn't force me to favor a single playstle or pokemon that won't have any other use other than being a nite slayer.
People predicted the dual screens, HO onslaught during the excadrill thread, please if you have any such predictions of the next broken thing that meets the criteria if deo gets banned theb our camp is all ears.
if you remove deoxys-s i am guessing:
it would be similar to dppt style where weather based teams are as competitive as standard gastro/tran/skarm/celebi cores, etc. but you would have innovative teams perhaps consisting of dragonite/terrakion/volcarona offense supported by taunt azelf; instead of deoxys-s. sandstorm teams may opt to run aerodactyl / landlos / terra / ttar beatdown with rotom-w there to patch up where it may suffer vs. rain stall.
fact is, you wont have deoxys-s making gorbyss look like a shooting star blessed with a move and ability designed to take full advantage of ou's most common conditions imaginable.
it would be similar to dppt style where weather based teams are as competitive as standard gastro/tran/skarm/celebi cores, etc. but you would have innovative teams perhaps consisting of dragonite/terrakion/volcarona offense supported by taunt azelf; instead of deoxys-s. sandstorm teams may opt to run aerodactyl / landlos / terra / ttar beatdown with rotom-w there to patch up where it may suffer vs. rain stall.
fact is, you wont have deoxys-s making gorbyss look like a shooting star blessed with a move and ability designed to take full advantage of ou's most common conditions imaginable.
*insert Grass-type with Sunny Day* Rain & Sand countered.
I know better than anyone that it takes more than that but in all seriousness, Sunny Day stop Rain teams harder than anything in the game. Not Sun teams, not Ninetales, just the move Sunny Day. Give Rotom-W Sunny Day & HP Fire & you'll see what I mean.
But on the actual topic of Deoxys-S, there's really nothing I or anyone could say that hasn't been said already but I'll give it a crack. Deoxys-S hasn't brought back the lead metagame, but it has brought back the concept of Anti-leads like FS Lucario & Mixed Dragonite. While I do like that and hope that Pokemon like Azelf, Uxie, Aerodactyl, & even Deoxys-D do make a comeback, there's just no way that's going to happen until Deoxys-S is gone. It pretty much gets guaranteed Dual Screen, SR & 1 layer of Spikes, a 140 BP STAB attack off to OHKO a lot of Pokemon, Superpower or HP Fire for just about everything else.
In truth, just about everything that could stop Deoxys-S from doing what it wants for the first 2 turns is OHKO'd by Deoxys-S. Every single reason that Deoxys-S was banned in 4th Gen, still stands today. It may be a new game, but NOTHING has changed about Deoxys-S. Not a damn thing. You can stop Deoxys from doing one thing, be it Screens or Hazards, but you're not stopping both & certainly not without losing a Pokemon.
Is Prankster, Espeon, & the improved Magic Coat enough to keep Deoxys-S in OU? Hell no. The thing is, as far as Deoxys-S is concerned, that is ALL that changed from 4th Gen to 5th Gen. Scarf Terrakion? Scarf Infernape. Deoxys-S is still not impressed. The only thing that can't really be compared is Scarf Zoroark disguised as something like a Ferrothorn. That's about the best all-around counter to Deoxys-S out there assuming it can provoke a Taunt or Dark Pulse flinch to make Deoxys-S waste it's 1st turn.
No, it dosen't.
There are loads of ways around Conkeldurr. There are loads of ways around Dragonite. There are loads of ways around Ferrothorn.
There was only one or two ways around things like Garchomp, Excadrill, and Blaziken.
And yes, I've been of the opinion that rain's broken for a very long time, since Drizzle was first announced. Fact that 2 bans have been done to save it [Drizzle + SS and Manaphy], and 1 that could be argued to have been done to further nerf rain [Thunderus], dosen't help it's case...
But this is not the thread to discuss the issue of Rain.
Slowbro was still a counter to the most popular blaziken set because he could actually tank a +2 LO adamant shadow claw. It was Mixken who slowbro didn't do anything to. He was 2hko'd by sun boosted fire blast. And without drought, he was 2hko'd by fire blast + hp grass (which mauled quagsire too).
Rain forces you to carry a...grass type pokemon. Or something that can take boosted attacks. Specs politoed and even specs starmie with hydro pump are still not breaking the likes of celebi, virizion, shaymin, roserade, venusaur, etc. The metagame as it stands isn't even made to counter rain. People eventually learned that gastrodon wasn't needed and simply moved on to playing around rain's threats.
As far as deoxys-S is concerned, this isn't the case. It doesn't force you to pack a specific counter or strategy simply because you can't reliably counter the pokemon. Your counter will work against select Deo-S sets while doing nothing more than keeping your opponent from gaining immeadiate momentum. Or it will fail and your opponent will gain immeadiate momentum. This is especially dangerous with the number of bulky boosters fifth gen has given us. The support he gives is just way too good.
Rain forces you to carry a...grass type pokemon. Or something that can take boosted attacks. Specs politoed and even specs starmie with hydro pump are still not breaking the likes of celebi, virizion, shaymin, roserade, venusaur, etc. The metagame as it stands isn't even made to counter rain. People eventually learned that gastrodon wasn't needed and simply moved on to playing around rain's threats.
As far as deoxys-S is concerned, this isn't the case. It doesn't force you to pack a specific counter or strategy simply because you can't reliably counter the pokemon. Your counter will work against select Deo-S sets while doing nothing more than keeping your opponent from gaining immeadiate momentum. Or it will fail and your opponent will gain immeadiate momentum. This is especially dangerous with the number of bulky boosters fifth gen has given us. The support he gives is just way too good.
I think this whole debate can be broken down to a single point:
Are only/mostly teams with Deoxys-S successful?
(Do you need Deo-S to win consistently (tournaments)?)
And i think that isnt the case here. Great players still have success without using Deoxys-S. You arent forced to run Deoxys-S just to win. Therefore i cant see why Deo-S is broken.
And yes im not a friend of some of the other bans made in the past too. Honestly Smogon bans way too much since the invention of the 'suspect tests' back in 4th Gen.
I feel like in the older gens people didnt whine as much about something being 'overpowered' but instead found ways to deal with the Pokemon that were annoying or 'problematic'. A good example are Tauros in RBY, Snorlax in GSC and Tyranitar/Celebi in ADV. Take for example Celebi in ADV. Celebi is such an annoying Pokemon to face but you can still deal with it.
Annoying doesnt equal broken.
Are only/mostly teams with Deoxys-S successful?
(Do you need Deo-S to win consistently (tournaments)?)
And i think that isnt the case here. Great players still have success without using Deoxys-S. You arent forced to run Deoxys-S just to win. Therefore i cant see why Deo-S is broken.
And yes im not a friend of some of the other bans made in the past too. Honestly Smogon bans way too much since the invention of the 'suspect tests' back in 4th Gen.
I feel like in the older gens people didnt whine as much about something being 'overpowered' but instead found ways to deal with the Pokemon that were annoying or 'problematic'. A good example are Tauros in RBY, Snorlax in GSC and Tyranitar/Celebi in ADV. Take for example Celebi in ADV. Celebi is such an annoying Pokemon to face but you can still deal with it.
Annoying doesnt equal broken.
I would really like for everyone to stop saying that we the pro-Uber side don't like it because it's "annoying." Not once have I or anybody else even mentioned that in their reasoning for wanting Deoxys banned. You can't just say, "Seriously guys, we can't just ban every annoying thing in the mteagame herp derp." If this was the case then Pokemon like Glisocr, Jirachi, and Breloom would have had a suspect test way before now.
You say this, but do nothing to address the previous post's point, which is that Deo-S isn't game breakingly good. He does nothing different from many other Pokemon of the type, he's just faster. He doesn't force one strategy reliant on him to be the dominant strategy, he just fits his role in a given strategy better than anyone else can. That is no grounds to ban anything. That is merely what is called as a niche.
HO suddenly became one of the most used play styles because of the Exca ban, which allowed Deoxys-S to thrive.
"Game-breakingly good" is dependent on what you mean with it. Deoxys isn't sweeping an entire team, Deoxys isn't crippling the entire opposing team(unless your 6 pokemon are SR weak, vulnerable to Spikes, and/or weak to his common moves), but he is providing such good and near unstoppable support to his own team which gives you almost instant offensive momentum. His speed and move pool and usable offensive stats(and bulk, lol) allow him to surpass every other screener.
For example, CB T-tar will always OHKO Espeon behind Reflect, but that same T-tar only has a 2.56% chance to kill Deoxys-S behind Reflect...AFTER Sand. Another thing to note is that ScarfTar can out-speed Espeon(and OHKO), but not Deoxys.
Another example: Deoxys can EASILY kill T-tar/Scizor/etc. with common coverage moves like Superpower, HP Fire, Psycho Boost, etc.
None of these moves are rare for Deoxys and none of them are strictly for a single set. The DS set can easily run Superpower or HP Fire.
By switching in your T-tar or Scizor as a lead, you ALWAYS risk the chance of your opponent carrying that certain move or just bumping into an offensive set.
Oh, and btw, having a niche =/= bad.
If Deoxys-S were to be banned, I think it'd mean a considerable decrease in the amount of people using Offensive teams. Now; I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing as Hyper Offense can be a bitch to play against but it can also be a LOT of fun playing with.
If I were obliged to give an answer, I don't think it should be banned because most people are too dumb to realise how much of a beast it is when taking advantage of the LO set.
If I were obliged to give an answer, I don't think it should be banned because most people are too dumb to realise how much of a beast it is when taking advantage of the LO set.
Taylor, seems like your main beef with HO is Smash Pass rather than Deoxys-S. Ironically, as you have illustrated, Espeon is a much more fitting Dual Screener than Deoxys-S, since the former also keeps the Smash boosts alive by forming an un-phazable BP chain with Gorebyss. Not seeing the Deoxys-S-is-broken part.
Pocket said:
Deoxys-S, however, is more often than not the go-to screener for HO and pretty much everything else besides SmashPass in general because it can successfully get both screens up at least 3/4 of the times if they don't lead with a strong priority user which can 2HKO through Reflect (CB Dragonite is the best at this atm), and even then they'll get at least one screen up. The next Pokemon switches in and they have a turn of setup, which can often either be the end of the match right there or the first part of it if they cripple your team enough.
Choice Band Dragonite Extremespeed doesn't 2 hit ko through Reflect and neither does Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch in most cases. Why are you saying it does? Deoxys-S could also most of the time live through even Rotom-W Volt Switch Choice Band Scizor U-Turn spam to set up screens. Rotom needs specs to nail the more standard max hp no defense for sure and if it invests in defenses, it could still live even taking the specs and band to set up Screens and Rock.
I have found an absurd counter to Standar Deoxys Screener!
Azelf with Imprison, Light Screen, Reflect and Taunt/(Trick in Azelf's case) with Choice Scarf, Uxie is also an option but lacks Taunt and it is slower if Deoxys has more than 475 speed.
Azelf/Swoobat is not going to survive anytime soon(specially Swoobat which has to choose between Klutz and Unaware) PsychoBoost from Deoxys-S but at least forces it to do it or to switch. Deoxys-S never carries Shadow Ball.
Another trouble is, if the Alien kills Azelf/Swoobat/Uxie, specially they are useless are Scarfers or they switch it can set up screens again.
Besides Brick Break, Infiltrator is not bad at all, circumstancial at best, but all the pokemon having the ability suck at offensive, except maybe Spiritomb, Seviper and Crobat which are not stellar. Crobat other ability is circumstancial too, 99% of the time useless, at least it protects to being flinched to death with a paralyzed Crobat against a Haxchi, and Seviper is not going to do much with its fragility, but it is not going to do nothing without TR or paralysis support and even, it is outclassed. Spiritomb does not like the lack of Trick in its offensive CB sets.
Azelf with Imprison, Light Screen, Reflect and Taunt/(Trick in Azelf's case) with Choice Scarf, Uxie is also an option but lacks Taunt and it is slower if Deoxys has more than 475 speed.
Azelf/Swoobat is not going to survive anytime soon(specially Swoobat which has to choose between Klutz and Unaware) PsychoBoost from Deoxys-S but at least forces it to do it or to switch. Deoxys-S never carries Shadow Ball.
Another trouble is, if the Alien kills Azelf/Swoobat/Uxie, specially they are useless are Scarfers or they switch it can set up screens again.
Besides Brick Break, Infiltrator is not bad at all, circumstancial at best, but all the pokemon having the ability suck at offensive, except maybe Spiritomb, Seviper and Crobat which are not stellar. Crobat other ability is circumstancial too, 99% of the time useless, at least it protects to being flinched to death with a paralyzed Crobat against a Haxchi, and Seviper is not going to do much with its fragility, but it is not going to do nothing without TR or paralysis support and even, it is outclassed. Spiritomb does not like the lack of Trick in its offensive CB sets.
What did I say about posting ridiculous sets like this? What does that Azelf do against teams without a dual screens deoxys? Trick its Scarf away? Then what? This thread is about Deo's tiering and coming up with some extremely dedicated set that can't do anything else does not help the discussion.
I haven't had too much experience playing against dual screens deoxys, but that seems to be the set that most people view to be broken. I was just wondering if it would be possible to stall out the screens? For example you just let deoxys sit in the lead spot until there are only 1-2 turns of screens left and then you could kill it. Would that work?
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