np: UU Stage 4 - I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas

[TM13IceBeam]

actually its up to the player's discretion to CHOOSE to use Minimize/DT, but its still the uncompetitiveness that it brings that causes it to be banned

as for snow cloak you CAN choose whether to run Abomasnow or not, Froslass is actually quite viable in teams without Hail and Hail doesn't necessarily need Froslass to function. in fact, aboma and lass are 2 separate mons entirely, and just like you can choose to run scizor and not that retarded washing machine rotom-w, you can also choose to run aboma without lass. there isn't a clause saying that you have to run froslass with abomasnow/snover, neither is there one that says you must run scizor with rotom-w

also in the UU tier there are actually multiple ways to circumvent weather, so much that you actually have to keep aboma alive for as long as possible even against teams without an auto-inducer since you never know if that sableye is actually going to RD or not and fuck up your hail strategy.

moody is banned because you can somewhat control it (with everyone and their mom learning the combo of sub + protect except for derps like magikarp and regigigas) and repeatedly stalling out for boosts is not funny especially when you get speed/evasion its pretty much instant-gg. again its the uncompetitiveness that causes it to be banned.

so what does it come down to all of this? SC/SV have auto-inducers. SC/SV can be activated through usage of the move hail/sandstorm. If Froslass uses Hail/Gligar uses Sandstorm and activates SC/SV, does that fall under evasion clause since you are actively activating SC/SV?

 

[CrazyBacon]

Heracross just got 50 times better from where I am sitting this round. with the amount of ice pokemon being carried by hail teams, once you rid the opposing team of there fighting resist + frosslass, just sit back and click close combat for an easy win! lay down some rocks and a layer or 2 of spikes and just watch as heracross wields its fantastic attack stat too decimate the opponent, makes a fantastic pursuit trapper as well. A true underrated mon in my opinion.

SC/SV can be activated through usage of the move hail/sandstorm. If Froslass uses Hail/Gligar uses Sandstorm and activates SC/SV, does that fall under evasion clause since you are actively activating SC/SV?

But then you have to waste a moveslot on hail/sandtorm. Even then it only lasts 5 or 8 turns. now frosslass can carry 1 less move as well, whats it going too give up, spikes?, sub? its attacking move? or thunder wave? giving up its attacking move makes it taunt bait, and any of the other moves significantly decreases how effective it is.

I know people dont like complex bans, but I propose snow warning + snow cloak/ sand stream+ sand veil. this doesnt ban frosslass as you can still have it on your team, you just cant have aboma along with it. Mamo and glaceon have other abilities, and beartic is still usable, again just not alongside aboma. Much like you can still have a swift swim kingdra in your OU team, you just cant have politoed alongside it.

 

[Forsety]

Great job guys. Now EVERYBODY will be using Mamoswine. It's pretty much impossible to wall.

I've been saying that forever, if people used him more he'd turn into the Scizor of UU imo. Impossible to wall due to brute strength and basically any fast mons who don't outright resist ice are automatically near useless.

Also, does anyone think a set of Sub, Icicle Crash, EQ, Ice Shard with Lefties could be viable in hail? You don't want to be fishing for hax with Sub, but you can use it to ease prediction and just get the extra hax chance as a bonus. I tried it for a little while and was a bit disappointed. I really missed the LO boost. Granted, the team wasn't really built for Mamoswine (very stallish), so I'm not gonna lose faith yet...

There is more variety in Mamo then meets the eye but the LO set is just so freakishly nightmarish to defend against it feels like there just isn't a point in experimenting with it. I think the thing you got to remember is Mamo is versatile, it can SR, it can Curse, it can setup Screens. Its a matter of trying everything out till you find the right combination.

Speaking of stallish and on the subject of Mamo, I tried out a Evolite Thick Fat Piloswine for laughs sometime ago and the thing is freakishly bulky. With only a 108 HP/176 S.Def investment it somehow only took 37% from a Chandelure Flamethrower. I mean seriously wtf?


EDIT: Oh on a sidenote if anyone has noticed from the recent stats, Donphan, Alakazam, Mamoswine and Chansey might be going OU after being above the cutoff for two months straight. Think we might be seeing a resurgence in urgency on the UU & hazards and support issue soon because UU will lose a Rapid Spinner soon if they do it again for December.

 

[Heysup]

The same logic can be applied to SV/SC, in that you must have Hail or Sand up before the ability activates, which goes back to my original point about them being passive evasion effects.

Snow Warning and Sandstream. It can be automatically up. The logic can't be applied.

This is the difference between Evasion abilities and anything else. The element of control. Until there is at least acceptance of this there is going to be a circle of fallacious counterarguments....

A similar concept can be applied to evasion moves too. You have to actually get the Pokemon out and use it, but as the opponent you don't "control" anything after that. The game is out of your hands.

 

[Upstart]

Okay, I will simply put my vote in for banning snow cloak / sand veil.

Now, that has been said, I would like to propose the ban of scald. Scald proves detrimental to the UU metagame (Idc about OU) as it maims physical attacks based upon luck. At the same time special attackers find it difficult to set up once being burned. For example CM raikou can't effectively set up on the bulky waters he should easily handle if upon switch in he is burned. The only way to prevent the scald burn is to run lum berry or specific sweepers immune to scald or scalds effects. Lum's problems arise from the fact that it is one time use and also greatly limits power output. Poliwrath, jinx, and other water absorb or burn immune pokes such as floatzel are all very sub par pokemon in the UU metagame. I admit that magic guard alakazam works but upon switching into a scald alakazam will probably die to the second scald as most bulky waters survive a hit from zam. Thus with shaky counters/ checks each time one sends in an offensive threat to a bulky water they are effectively playing Russian roulette as the burn will hinder if not cripple the sweeper. Even the great Roserade despises burns as LO damage paired with burns kills rose quickly.

Now one might argue sludge bomb and discharge do the same thing so why not ban them. You see the thing is both sludge bomb and discharge have immunities to both the status and the attack. Fire types are immune to burns but get destroyed by scald. Thus scald is superior to the ladder two

Another argument is that of precedent. Honestly i don't know what precedent means in teiring as we don't seem to follow one. We tried to implement categories but that fell through or we said no complex bans and yet we did it any way. The point is it is the job of the tearing contributors to do what is best for the metagame even if it means banning something that has never been banned. This is in regards to both the sc/ sv ban and the scald ban.

 

[CrazyBacon]

Okay, I will simply put my vote in for banning snow cloak / sand veil.

Now, that has been said, I would like to propose the ban of scald. Scald proves detrimental to the UU metagame (Idc about OU) as it maims physical attacks based upon luck. At the same time special attackers find it difficult to set up once being burned. For example CM raikou can't effectively set up on the bulky waters he should easily handle if upon switch in he is burned. The only way to prevent the scald burn is to run lum berry or specific sweepers immune to scald or scalds effects. Lum's problems arise from the fact that it is one time use and also greatly limits power output. Poliwrath, jinx, and other water absorb or burn immune pokes such as floatzel are all very sub par pokemon in the UU metagame. I admit that magic guard alakazam works but upon switching into a scald alakazam will probably die to the second scald as most bulky waters survive a hit from zam. Thus with shaky counters/ checks each time one sends in an offensive threat to a bulky water they are effectively playing Russian roulette as the burn will hinder if not cripple the sweeper. Even the great Roserade despises burns as LO damage paired with burns kills rose quickly.

Now one might argue sludge bomb and discharge do the same thing so why not ban them. You see the thing is both sludge bomb and discharge have immunities to both the status and the attack. Fire types are immune to burns but get destroyed by scald. Thus scald is superior to the ladder two

Another argument is that of precedent. Honestly i don't know what precedent means in teiring as we don't seem to follow one. We tried to implement categories but that fell through or we said no complex bans and yet we did it any way. The point is it is the job of the tearing contributors to do what is best for the metagame even if it means banning something that has never been banned. This is in regards to both the sc/ sv ban and the scald ban.

As per the jirachi iron head arguement and togekiss's air slash, you still have too fire off the scald. if my zapdos thunderbolts your slowbro, then you dont get too use scald and thats the end of that problem, moreover pokemon such as zapdos dont mind being burned as now it cannot be put too sleep or badly poisoned, in addition guts users love being burned by scald, as it helps them by jacking up there offensive power, whilst still allowing them to be able too wield a choice scarf/band or leftovers.

The side effect of scald can be played around quite easily, if you are careless enough to get your physical attacker burned, then that is your fault as a battler, however if you use dark pulse on a frosslass/mamoswine and it dodges, you have not been careless and you have no control over the outcome which has now landed your zoroark paralysed (for instance) or its dead thanks too mamoswines Earthquake, in fact by choosing dark pulse over night daze you have weighed up the options and do not deserve to be punished by a miss.

Furthermore using discharge is a strategic option, as most pokemon get thunderbolt. I use discharge over thunderbolt on my porygon 2, however I am trading power for an increased chance too paralyse my opponent, however if my opponent is packing a cleric my choice becomes worse and the power difference should have been used as paralysing a pokemon, when the opponent has a cleric is of little importance over the added power thunderbolt provides.

The comparison between scald and snow cloak is not sufficent to warrant it being deemed the same. On one hand scald can be played around, by switching in a water absorb pokemon a special attacker etc. however apart from using aerial ace/faint attack/aura sphere or something like hone claws (which you cant be affording to do against mamowsine/frosslass) there is an 80% chance that your pokemon has either now been paralysed by frosslass or she has a sub up OR you;ve just taken an icicle crash/EQ/ whatever from a pokemon who has a gargantuan attack stat.

In short, a player can play around scald you have control over what you do, by switching in a resist/immunity/special attacker too sponge the scald, moreover you can use the move heal bell/aromatherapy/refresh too rid your pokemon of the burn. The only thing you can do against snow cloak is chang the weather by a move such as; rain dance, or sunny day. However abomasnow will just come straight back in and change the weather until you cant set up weather anymore, unless you propose that every pokemon on your team carry a random weather move just to combat snow cloak?

PS Roserade has natural cure, so it switches out and the burn is gone, most roserade also carry rest/leech seed along with leftovers too gain HP back, if you choose too carry life orb on your roserade, chances are you're not expecting it to tank hits unlike spike layer variants.

 

[Upstart]

@ crazy bacon i never said they were the same so I have no idea what you are talking about. Two Zapdos doesn't like being burned as then it is taking 37% each time it switches in. Not to mention that the water can just switch out after burning as you rack up more damage. This is even accounting for LO dos. Next how exactly is it my fault that my physical sweeper get burned on luck i can't have every physical sweeper i have use guts. I understand not switching into WoW but i can switch a sawsbuck into a milotic as the opportunity of sawsbuck getting neutered.

On a side not you can play around snow cloak by using moves that don't miss or changing the weather just as you argue you can play around scald. Its funny you say you can't play around sc and yet list ways to do so. The point is that using such things appear to be detrimental to the metagame and a team as a whole.

Finally it appears that you are missing the whole point. SC and SV are not broken in the typical sense. They are broken in that they take away from the competitiveness of the metagame. Scald is another move that is not broken in that it breaks the metagame but adds an element of uncompetitiveness that is simply unwarranted.

 

[CrazyBacon]

Rapid spin can clear the field of rocks, so yes if they are up then its taking 37%, but its 12% if not, It also has access to roost, which it can do whilst your water pokemon flees, so 12+12+25=49. Roost heals off 50% which leaves you right back where you started, just minus 12%.
If you are switching a sawsbuck into a milotic and your sawsbuck gets burned via scald then thats not luck, thats poor risk management. You know thats there's a 30% chance your sawsbuck is going too be burned if it has scald, you are playing the odds and taking a gamble on it not having scald/not being burned, same if it gets smacked by ice beam, as a battler its your job to think 'Does he carry scald/ice beam, if I switch sawsbuck in there's a chance that a) he can be burned and neutered, b)gets smacked with an ice beam, or c) I get in safely and can do whatever. Clerics can fix burns quite easily, its what they do.

Yes they can be played around (I listed them o_O) but that requires you adding a weather move on to one of your pokemon, whether it be kingdra, rotom H etc. Thats a free turn you are giving your opponent, to do anything, why should I, or anyone, have to do that just to combat something? I can understand if you're running a rain team that SC/SV isn't much of a problem but are we all supposed to run a rain team or run faint attack? Moreover faint attack/aerial ace/aura sphere isnt doing much to any SV/SC pokemon, aura sphere generally has poor coverage and, and is laughed at by frosslass, and faint attack? mamo, hell even cacturne laughs at faint atttack, its 60 base power, I dont think I would be arguing if it was a higher base power but 60BP isnt cutting it in todays metagame.

Scald isnt uncompetitive, its a choice between what you want your pokemon to do. Do you want your milotic to hit harder, with surf, or do you want it to have a chance to burn with scald? As I said, if you burn a heracross with guts thats holding a choice scarf/band then its tough too repeatedly take its attacks, especially if the team can pass it wishes, then you lost the game because you got lucky by burning it, is your opponent complaining? Probably not since he's gonna megahorn/close combat the crap out of your team punching sever holes in it. Pokemon like roserade can switch in, absorb the burn and switch out, ready too absorb again.

I think it should be chucked because of the lack of stuff that actually hits hard with faint attack, this is weavile using a banded faint attack;

against sweeper mamoswine 46% - 54.3% mamo survives and KOES weavile with EQ. its probably better too rely on the 80% chance too kill it with brick break

Cacturne 0/0 37.4% - 44.1% lol.....

Glaceon 0/0 47.4% - 56.3% still not a KO. Better too rely on brick break

faint attack gets your weavile dead, at the cost of 50% of your opponents SC/SV abusers pokemon, the only pokemon worth running faint attack for is frosslass who is KOED, but you may as well run machamp and just spam stone edge/dynamicpunch.

The only thing I WOULD reccommend to 'counter' SC/SV is aura sphere nasty plot/clam mind mew. since that has bulk and an offensive prescence.

I am all for banning SC/SV but it doesnt mean I cannot see the other side.

 

[jamashawalker]

I understand what upstart is saying in terms of scald having a high chance of burn with very few pokes being immune...as welll as the difference between discharge and sludgebomb. It is truly one of the most dangerous secondary effects moves.But the fact does remain that you do have to attack with scald for it to work similar to a flinch from togekiss/jirachi. While a burn can affect the outcome of a match, I wouldnt say it is anymore different than being statused by other means. Actually if you were to say that scald is a broken move, then you might be opening a window to say that other secondary effects are broken as well

 

[Godsend]

I understand what upstart is saying in terms of scald having a high chance of burn with very few pokes being immune...as welll as the difference between discharge and sludgebomb. It is truly one of the most dangerous secondary effects moves.But the fact does remain that you do have to attack with scald for it to work similar to a flinch from togekiss/jirachi. While a burn can affect the outcome of a match, I wouldnt say it is anymore different than being statused by other means. Actually if you were to say that scald is a broken move, then you might be opening a window to say that other secondary effects are broken as well

As much as I do hate Scald, this is a very valid point. This is one of those slippery slope types of things that we like to avoid.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

But then you have to waste a moveslot on hail/sandtorm. Even then it only lasts 5 or 8 turns. now frosslass can carry 1 less move as well, whats it going too give up, spikes?, sub? its attacking move? or thunder wave? giving up its attacking move makes it taunt bait, and any of the other moves significantly decreases how effective it is.

...So? You still have to waste a moveslot for Double Team. What makes a Froslass using Hail different from a Froslass using Double Team? Both are actively activating Evasion.

ps: do not use the fucking weather argument because just as how i can have sableye rain dance away hail i can also have milotic/murkrow haze away your double teams

 

[casey90]

I would just like to come to the megathread and exclaim a few things to the good UU folks, First off, i love the combination of mixed defense arcanine spiker D-d and sableye. The only thing keeping this combo from being even more annoying is just how unreliable Will-o-wisp is, Scald burns more than this hits....Anyway using these fine pokemon I've found hail to be really underwhelming, maybe I'm a little specialized but this is a great core for the current Meta. Secondly I really hope we don't ban Aboma, or even snow cloak for that matter, this tier has been too much fun to keep banning things (I do agree with every prior ban though)

here's the sets btw if anyone was curious

Arcanine@leftovers
Careful Nature
252HP / 128 DEF / 128 Sp. DEF
Ability: Intimidate
~Flare Blitz
~Morning Sun
~Roar
~Will-o-Wisp

Sableye@ Leftovers
Impish Nature
252HP / 4DEF / 252 Sp. DEF
Prankster
~Taunt
~Will-o-Wisp
~Recover
~Foul Play

Deoxys-D@ Leftovers
Timid Nature
252 HP / 4 DEF / 252 Speed
Pressure
~Spikes
~Stealth Rock
~Recover
~Taunt

 

[Steamroll]

I blew my 1250 UU ranking to see how well it would work today. I really like users suggesting strategies. But I don't see how that one is so effective, especially with Arcanine. It's meh against hail (after a few switches the core really falls apart due to the fact that even though this core is designed to stall and wall, it still gets taken down by hard hitters and some of hails most common mons). It isn't even worth using to face teams outside of hail, were the most common sweepers all can tear this core apart. Heracross, Azelf and Alakazam can shred through this core in about 5 turns with good prediction.

 

[SJCrew]

Any reason you split Sableye's defenses, Casey? Just saying, a mon with garbage stats like his already has a hard enough time surviving when he commits.

 

[casey90]

@Steamroll sorry bout your rating, I actually got to about 1280 or so with this core in the last couple of days, i hadn't faced an azelf though, but heracross and alakazam were destroyed every time I had faced them, I guess I hadn't taken on everybody noteworthy.

@SJ Crew I gave the impish nature because I haven't really needed the +nature for special defense, maybe alakazam's presence would merit it? Also the extra defense has helped to my knowledge in taking a sweepers hit before I hit it wil will-o-wisp. If there are better spreads for any of the mons I'm all ears

 

[Snunch]

Sableye needs to be able to switch in on both Alakazam and Donphan (just as examples), so splitting the EVs makes sense. The listed EVs are inefficient though, 252 hp / 120 def / 136 spdef careful is the best spread.

Also, there is a combos in uu thread

 

[casey90]

thanks snunch, I'll try that one

 

[SJCrew]

@SJ Crew I gave the impish nature because I haven't really needed the +nature for special defense, maybe alakazam's presence would merit it? Also the extra defense has helped to my knowledge in taking a sweepers hit before I hit it wil will-o-wisp. If there are better spreads for any of the mons I'm all ears

Yeah, it's usually best not to try to switch Sableye directly in on anything that can hit hard, since even with Snunch's spread, he has a good chance of being 2HKOed by both Donphan and Alakazam as he gets in. He can usually Recover coming in on Shadow Ball unless it Sp. Def drops, but all things considered, he's a really shaky check to anything. But I suppose those are my issues with Sableye as a Pokemon rather than the stat spread itself.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I'm having difficulty believing that anyone who doesn't want to ban Snow Cloak has actually played against hail. Do you guys not understand how retarded it is to completely outplay your opponent and then end up losing because your taunt/mach punch/etc misses against your target? It's completely frustrating to build a good team, outplay your opponent, and still lose because your 100% accurate moves decide not to hit. Get rid of this shit please.

 

[SJCrew]

Yeah, that was pretty retarded, Flare, I watched it happen too. Only Snow Cloak lets people get away with switching directly into Escavalier's Iron Head to clutch out a win.

For people who are still willing to blame all of this turmoil on Abomasnow or Hail in general, I'm willing to discuss it. Still haven't seen any of those Blizzard spamming teams I keep hearing about.

 

[Steamroll]

When hippo was just banned it was blizzard spam central for me. Right now it's about 66% no weather/33% hail. I have had so many games won because of froslass getting a lucky dodge. I also had a few losses due to it , too.

I don't think abomasnow should be caught in the crossfire because of froslass. Of course he can set weather and all but he can't take hits and he even has trouble dishing them out, too. While Hippo could handily do both and really support a team. So I really want this to play out as Froslass going BL and Abomasnow staying due to the fact he's not that much of a supporter outside of providing weather.

 

[Godsend]

I still find Sand to be very, very powerful, even with big Hippo gone. I was able to ladder to 1300+ with a shitty sand team in a couple of hours, and it's all because of Stoutland. When you describe its attributes, it doesn't sound horrifying, "only" 100 base attack, shotty movepool etc, but in practice, it really is devestating. I wish we would have banned that rather than the big Hippo, seeing as Hippowdon didn't break sand, Stout did. Now we have a pretty much pointless ban and still a very good playstyle that easily wrecks the meta.

And Froslass hax makes me want to destroy my computer, especially seeing as how when I use Lass I never hax people like how I get haxed. It's unfair...

 

[SJCrew]

Godsend, no one really wants to use little hippo though. He's bad and he makes Sand teams work harder for their wins. I think some people will still use it after we deal with Hail's dominance, but it really is telling that Sand teams dropped off of the face of the earth after we took out Hippowdon.

Also, how do you folks feel about Snow Cloak + Snow Warning?

 

[Machi]

Also, how do you folks feel about Snow Cloak + Snow Warning?

I think the consensus is that it is pretty bad but I think what is more contestable about the combo ban is - other than preferring to not create such a complicated ban - is that there one very obvious abuser out there. Froslass is a cut above other abusers of Snow Cloak which makes it difficult IMO to really assess the situation. Stats speak for themselves when you only see Lass and Swine making the UU cut off for snow cloak users.

Sure you'd hate to miss on Mamoswine, but as already mentioned earlier he's just plain good on every other aspect (making him quite UU and from stats OU worthy if the trend continues) so of course you'd want him dead, but again like other slower Snow Cloak users its an obvious gamble for them to hope for a Snow Cloak miss compared to Froslass who has a much better chance - and can even supplement that with TW and create a disadvantageous situation for the entire opposing team with spike support (in addition to being the spike blocker) and inadvertently yes paralysis support should it opt for that so as to increase likelihood of not hitting other Snow Cloak users. So I really find it hard to say whether that ban would be more appropriate given how she hogs the spotlight well in that regard.

 

[Ace Emerald]

Pre Post Edit @ SJCrew:
I hate the idea of a complex ban, but I also hate soft banning other 'mons. Assuming we extend this to sand, Gligar won't be usable, along with a few other less significant 'mons. Personally, I agree with lolcat and would like a ban on Froslass, as she is the only bad abuser. I mean, I may miss Cacturn, but then thats just a Cacturn: slower, frailer, and doesn't have an auto hit 120 STAB move. I don't see anything really uncompetitive with that; it won't be on every team making your life suck and missing is just a part of the game. However, it seems I am in the minority, so I doubt that will happen. I guess if we must ban the ability, we should probably complex ban to avoid soft banning, but my preference is a ban on just Froslass.

My two cents on the metagame:

I feel this metagame is significantly more bulky than the last one. Last round, I modded my team to be able to handle certain powerful sweepers, this round I find myself constantly checking to make sure I can break certain walls and wall combinations. I've seen a significant number of Chansey returning, Slowbro, who wasn't uncommon before, is now even more common, along with bulky waters in general, and I've seen Registeel get some more usage. Bulkier sets seem to be used more, for example, support Hitmontop over Technitop. I even saw one player using Technitop with leftovers. It made me facepalm a little, but that just shows you what type of metagame we have. Thats not to say everything is bulky and defensive, or the best stuff is bulky and defensive, I've just found that to be the most common. It seems like Snow Cloak, and along with it excessive hail will be gone soon from what I've heard, but I don't really see this metagame changing until new drops.

Now to advertise some.

Feraligatr. Why is this RU now? I just picked this thing up randomly on a fun team, and was completely shocked. Its not hard to grab a Swords Dance (or sometimes two, or even three), while taking a little bit of damage, ko a 'mon or two to get in Torrent Range, then dominate with Aqua Jet. I've led with this a lot, and a decent amount of times he kos two or three of the opposition right of the bat. It has a huge drawback in speed, and everything he can't ko with Aqua Jet at +2 can be problematic. However, sometimes they just through him into Torrent range, which means at least something is going to be dead or crippled, maybe more. He has to watch for Scald burns on bulky waters, but a +2 Frustration deals with them pretty quick. Obviously he can't touch Empoleon, but that can be worked around. tl;dr use Feraligatr, it's good. On a briefer note, as it has been said, Mamoswine is a monster, and I've notice its usage make a huge jump. It's pretty damn scary to face down sometimes.