np: UU Stage 4 - I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas

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Ok, I see your point.

Is quick banning Snover an option next round if hail is still a problem?
 
Regardless even if you do ban Abomasnow, people will still abuse hail by using Snover. It's similar to the way people used Hippopotas for sand abuse. Weather will still reign in UU unless it is completely eliminated. Not to say that those are the only two viable playstyles, but they are certainly the easiest to use, considering the amount of hail and sand abusers present in the tier. UU has been much too chaotic for me, so I've taken a hiatus from playing it.
 
Voting on Abomasnow doesn't make any sense. The part of Hail we really hate doesn't get nerfed at all. Really, we know Snover is a bad Pokemon, but if anyone were to use it, the game is still out of our hands when we run into a Snow Cloak user. Big 'do not ban' from me. I'm really disappointed in you guys, this is not what we discussed at all.
 
Is Blizzard Spam so overwhelmingly powerful that we need to ban Abomasnow / Snow Warning? I haven't heard any complaints about Blizz Spammers until recently. I agree with SJCrew that we should resolve the Snow Cloak issue before thinking about banning Hail playstyle as a whole. Hail won't be as dominant a playstyle if we remove the most problematic aspect of it. We're getting ahead of ourselves.
 
SJCrew said:
Voting on Abomasnow doesn't make any sense. The part of Hail we really hate doesn't get nerfed at all. Really, we know Snover is a bad Pokemon, but if anyone were to use it, the game is still out of our hands when we run into a Snow Cloak user. Big 'do not ban' from me. I'm really disappointed in you guys, this is not what we discussed at all.
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I could not agree more, what's the point of having a council to speak for the people when they only speak for themselves? The majority of people wanted either a complex ban or a straight ban of Snow Cloak, and yet Abomasnow is chosen as the suspect.
 
PS: Abomasnow and Froslass are the reasons why my Slowbro packs Fire Blast; really nails them both on the switch.

I am not really moved by just one nomination, especially just because we've gotten a lot more complaints about Froslass than Abomasnow. I can see what the intentions are at least, trying to nip this in the bud. Let's hope that this works and we don't have to deal with another round of complaints about Froslass.
 
Agreeing with SJ Crew.This nomination was completely unneeded and didn't solve at all the problem...

The problem for most of the players,was the misses that Snow Cloak provided.Not Blizzspam...

Even if Abomasnow gets banned,players will still be helpless when they see an opposing hail team.Remeber how frustrating facing a Hail team was before?Well it will be exactly the same because Snow Cloak abusers have been left untouched!
This shouldn't happen.When i see a hail team i should be able to be in control of the match if i play better than the opponent.Not lose by some stupid misshax...
 
I don't really care that this decision wasn't representative of the community as a whole. I care that it's a poor decision that doesn't alleviate what many people see as the two largest problems behind hail's power - the misses due to Snow Cloak and the free spikes due to Froslass. I'm not seeing what an Abomasnow ban would do to curb either of these issues. That's why I'm really curious to see the supporting paragraphs / arguments / logs / whatever for this decision.
 
Really confusing decision. Even if the old "Using Snover means starting down 6-5" logic was valid, the whole problem with Snow Cloak is that the abusers can bullshit wins out even if they're down 6-1.

Really ought to look at Snow Warning, not Abamasnow.
 
Sure, you could do that as well. Either ban would solve the problem of Snow Cloak, it's just a question of who gets soft-banned, Froslass or Abamasnow, and I'd rather have Froslass.

Also blah blah Blizzspam, etc.
 
I think that putting Abomasnow up for suspect was the right decision, for now at least. It is really a nerf to Hail as a whole. The honest truth in this is that while not only Snow Cloak was dominating the metagame, BlizzSpam was as well. I mean, think about it this way. What happened to Stoutland after Hippowdon was banned? It literally disappeared because people thought that Sand was no longer viable with only Hippopotas to provide permanent Sand.

This is more of a leveling the playing field kind of issue. Chances are, if Abomasnow is banned, then people will feel that Hail as a playstyle is not as viable as it once was. At least, people will feel that Sand and Hail are on the same level, and this is where the true issue becomes apparent. Even after a nerf to its most prominent playstyle, something will be broken if it continues to dominate the metagame. The best counter to Hail would be Sand, but nobody uses that because they don't think it's viable, since Abomasnow has a lot more longevity than Hippopotas. This issue is fixed by leaving only Snover to provide permanent Hail.

I hate to say it, but the point of making Abomasnow a suspect is to create a weather-wars metagame, where Sand and Hail are on an equal playing field. If they are still the best, then more suspects will arise and possibly create that balanced metagame. If not, then it's a job well done. This will be a ban not to resolve an issue now, but to create a more balanced metagame later, better than one where either Froslass or Snow Cloak was banned.
 
Abomasnow's the suspect...

Eh, not my first choice, but not my last either... (in fact, it was my third choice!)

I'll have reasoning for the way I ranked the choices tomorrow. I couldn't post any reasoning when I voted because of time constraints.

I'll have more to say tomorrow. I'll be as active as I used to be then too.
 
For the record, I chose to vote on Snow Cloak + Snow Warning first and Abomasnow as second, but you guys can rest assured that if Abomasnow is banned, we will still address Snow Warning + Snow Cloak in the future.
 
I honestly put Abomasnow first because I feel nothing is broken and I don't agree with these blanket bans given (especially complex bans) - Snover is very much worse off than Abomasnow despite Eviolite so if something was going to "fix" it, just a ban on Abomasnow would do it in my opinion. Still don't think anything is broken but I'll be looking forward to IRC debates!
 
ToF - For the record, I chose to vote on Snow Cloak + Snow Warning first and Abomasnow as second, but you guys can rest assured that if Abomasnow is banned, we will still address Snow Warning + Snow Cloak in the future.
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Would addressing Snow Cloak in the future result in re-assessing Abomasnow in UU? It seems more pragmatic to ban Snow Cloak / Complex Ban before Abomasnow.

kd24, if you believe nothing is broken, shouldn't you vote for "No Suspect" or abstain from voting?

EDIT: Lolcat, Brightpowder -> Garchomp wouldn't have been so stupid if we lifted the ban on Brightpowder once we removed the real culprit of the issue (Garchomp). Yes banning Abomasnow would of course make Hail less dominant, but it's nerfing the playstyle more than necessary. What's broken is apparently activated Snow Cloak, not Hail itself.
 
It might. Remember Abomasnow isn't banned at the moment.

I think getting rid of Abomasnow should put all the Hail debates to rest, as I don't think Hail will be broken in any way if the big yeti goes. That's not to say I'm going to vote "Ban" on it, but if it's banned I don't think any more needs to be said. If the "ban evasion" fervor continues and Snow Cloak is banned, it would be a terrible idea not to bring the big yeti back for another test.

Honestly if we ban Aboma and then Snow Cloak that would be as stupid as banning Garchomp then Brightpowder...

O WAIT!
 
Complex and abilities ban are terrible, please don't to that.... I'm glad the voting is on abomasnow. And just ban snover if it's still a problem, no one will use hail anyway after nerfing it like that.
 
i think that with spl3 coming there really isnt time for this conservative pussy footing around. im fairly sure everyone would like to see a healthy metagame that isnt ludicrously luck based by week 1.
 
what. the. fuck. how does this solve the issue? hail and sand are two totally different entities. what supposedly put sand / hippo over the bar was the synergy that stoutland and hippo had together, with hippo making stoutland so stupidly easy to abuse by providing sand and countering most of stoutlands biggest checks. as for hail, it has nothing to do with the synergy between froslass, aboma, or any other hail abuser, so why are we taking the same route in order to get rid of the problem? this makes no sense to me. getting rid of abomasnow will do nothing to solve the main issue at hand, which is snow cloak.
 
It doesn't. I'm testing Snover-based Hail right now and just as I suspected, there is almost no change. Froslass and Mamoswine are still doing all of the work and cheating my opponents out of the game with random misses. Snover just annoys things with Leech Seed and survives in case I see other weather, just like Abomasnow. Proof:

http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Vergil89-vs-SJ-Hero--2011-12-15
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-SJ-Hero-vs-CosmicLove--2011-12-15 (probably the most controversial one imo)
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-SJ-Hero-vs-Losinggames--2011-12-15
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-SJ-Hero-vs-Smurf--2011-12-15

Can someone provide similar evidence as to why Blizzard spamming is broken?
 
Gah, disappointing. Personally I don't think we can know if Abomasnow should be banned right now, Hail would be a completely different playstyle if not for froslass, which has always been the real problem imo. Beating hail teams requires precision that she just does not let you have, along with the other Snow Cloak abusers to an extent... but mostly her since she actively abuses the evasion.

And, honestly, I'm pretty much agreeing that a ban on Abomasnow would change very little. Hell, I've faced some eviolite Snover teams on the ladder already and they play absolutely no differently. I mean, I won't pretend it wouldn't hurt hail teams at all. Having your weather starter limited to one role does suck, and right now Abomasnow has a few options available to him. Still, Snover pulls off the more defensive sets just about as well as Abomasnow.

Meh...
 
Oh so now people decide to believe me and understand that BlizzSpam is broken. I hate to say I told you so but....I told you so!

Abomasnow is still a culprit, contrary to what many of you might think, but Snow Cloak is equally as bad. In my honest opinion, banning Snow Warning + Snow Cloak first would not change the inevitable fact that Abomasnow would be gone as well. I don't need Snow Cloak to be able to win on the ladder, as I've stressed constantly. BlizzSpam is more than enough...
 
Pocket said:
Would addressing Snow Cloak in the future result in re-assessing Abomasnow in UU? It seems more pragmatic to ban Snow Cloak / Complex Ban before Abomasnow.

kd24, if you believe nothing is broken, shouldn't you vote for "No Suspect" or abstain from voting?

EDIT: Lolcat, Brightpowder -> Garchomp wouldn't have been so stupid if we lifted the ban on Brightpowder once we removed the real culprit of the issue (Garchomp). Yes banning Abomasnow would of course make Hail less dominant, but it's nerfing the playstyle more than necessary. What's broken is apparently activated Snow Cloak, not Hail itself.
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unfortunately, i still had to rank them per request of jabba - this vote was only to decide what we are actually voting on
 
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