qft
this would also cause the least damage, and even though i hate soft bans its not like anyone gives a crap about abomasnow to begin with (everyone's using it for SW)
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np: UU Stage 4 - I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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this would also cause the least damage, and even though i hate soft bans its not like anyone gives a crap about abomasnow to begin with (everyone's using it for SW)
After watching those battles(and being in one of them) the main focus to watch is did snover even have to be used in some of those battles except for hail? And of course would Abomasnow do any better if it was on the team? these battles are great examples of why Snow Warning and not just abomasnow should be banned, since we arent going to be looking directly at snow cloak at the moment
Why do we keep voting on the wrong things..? Abomsnow is the last thing we need to worry about even though it's a great weather starter. Firstly, Abomasnow is not the same thing as Hippowdon (assuming it was the right thing to vote on) in the least. Abomsnow's difference is larger over Snover than Hippowdon over Hippopotas but the aspects of Hail that are the culprits are almost completely unrelated to Abomasnow while Hippowdon had quite a bit. We have had valid complaints about Snow Cloak and about BlizzSpam. Abomsnow being gone doesn't really solve anything, both of those are still almost completely unaffected.
Second, the only thing we have proof that banning the weather starter does is reduce the amount of people that want to use it. That's not the same as balancing a broken aspect of the metagame. I dare you to use a Sandstorm team with Hippopotas and tell me you still see that there are no more problems. I had a huge issue on voting on Hippowdon because no one was bothered by Hippowdon, just the effects of Sandstorm. We should not have set this precedent for weather starters because it makes defending Abomasnow that much more difficult. It shouldn't be just about reducing usage or appeal, it should be about actually creating a balance.
How was Abomsnow rated #1 if only 1-2 us wanted it anyway?
Second, the only thing we have proof that banning the weather starter does is reduce the amount of people that want to use it. That's not the same as balancing a broken aspect of the metagame. I dare you to use a Sandstorm team with Hippopotas and tell me you still see that there are no more problems. I had a huge issue on voting on Hippowdon because no one was bothered by Hippowdon, just the effects of Sandstorm. We should not have set this precedent for weather starters because it makes defending Abomasnow that much more difficult. It shouldn't be just about reducing usage or appeal, it should be about actually creating a balance.
How was Abomsnow rated #1 if only 1-2 us wanted it anyway?
Snow Warning as a whole is just homosexual in itself. A Basic core of Abomasnow/Slowbro/Nidoqueen can really fuck up a vast majority of the UU tier. Residual damage is also underrated, it can cause something like 200% damage over a 30ish turn game. Froslass is a huge cunt as it doesn't have a lot of trouble getting spikes up whilst spreading T-Wave through half your team.
I honestly don't see all that much people finding Blizzspam broken.
The main problem is the missses from Snow Cloak.Of 'course when you add in the mix powerful Blizzards from things like Glaceon,Aboma and Froslass it becomes even worse but the 'cause of the problems is not Blizzspam.
Also it is only logical that it is difficult to take those Blizzards when Lass sets easily 2 or even 3 layers of Spikes in addition to the Hail damage.
But why is Froslass setting up all these hazards in the beginning?
Yeap Snow Cloak!
I think even if we ban Aboma that we should make a seperate ladder to bring back Aboma and either ban Froslass,or Snow Cloak(either with a blanket ban or with a combo ban).Then if Hail is manageable,which i believe it will be,then we will know what the real problem is...
the other team about froslass is that as an ice-type, its STAB is SE against flying. this means that not even Xatu can switch in to reflect the spikes away since Ice Beam like 2hkos (and you outspeed on top of it)
also having the same sentiments as fatty: when half the council doesn't feel voting aboma is right, how did it happen...?
besides, if it turns out that abomasnow wasn't broken, we'd have just wasted time anyway on the true culprit: froslass
also having the same sentiments as fatty: when half the council doesn't feel voting aboma is right, how did it happen...?
besides, if it turns out that abomasnow wasn't broken, we'd have just wasted time anyway on the true culprit: froslass
So we are going to ban an entire playstyle because you think that something is stupid?
I don't really get what your problem is with a complex ban...
If we take the positives and the negatives of each solution, a combo ban is clearly the best solution! Here are the solutions and their effects:
1.By banning Snow Cloak we have :
-Pros : Getting rid of the biggest problem which is the annoying misshax
-Cons : Soft banning some pokes and restricting the movepool of some pokes
2.By banning Abomasnow we have :
-Pros : Nerfing the strategy known as Blizzspam
-Cons : Leaving the biggest issue,Snow Cloak,untouched and banning pokes which could prove to not be broken without Snow Cloak around
3.By banning Snow Warning we have :
-Pros : Getting rid of the biggest problem,Snow Cloak,and another potential issue Blizzspam
-Cons : Eliminating a whole playstyle and soft banning Abomasnow and Snover
4.By banning Froslass we have :
-Pros : Getting rid of a portion of the biggest problem,misshax.
-Cons : Banning a very beneficial poke for the meta and potentially not dealing good enough with the misshax problem
5.By banning Snow Warning + Snow Cloak we have :
-Pros : Getting rid of the biggest portion of the main problem,which is misshax(i am saying biggest portion because if your opponent has Aboma or Snover and you have a Snow Cloak mon,misshax could still happen but in a smaller degree)
-Cons : The complexity that a complex ban creates
So the cons are restricting movepools and soft banning pokes,letting Snow Cloak roam free,killing a playstyle and soft banning 2 pokes,removing a beneficial poke from the meta and letting the misshax problem potentially rise again or finally making the ruleset more complex.
Now i want all of you to tell me which of these cons you think will 'cause the smaller harm to the meta?
EDIT : I forgot a solution which just added!
I don't really get what your problem is with a complex ban...
If we take the positives and the negatives of each solution, a combo ban is clearly the best solution! Here are the solutions and their effects:
1.By banning Snow Cloak we have :
-Pros : Getting rid of the biggest problem which is the annoying misshax
-Cons : Soft banning some pokes and restricting the movepool of some pokes
2.By banning Abomasnow we have :
-Pros : Nerfing the strategy known as Blizzspam
-Cons : Leaving the biggest issue,Snow Cloak,untouched and banning pokes which could prove to not be broken without Snow Cloak around
3.By banning Snow Warning we have :
-Pros : Getting rid of the biggest problem,Snow Cloak,and another potential issue Blizzspam
-Cons : Eliminating a whole playstyle and soft banning Abomasnow and Snover
4.By banning Froslass we have :
-Pros : Getting rid of a portion of the biggest problem,misshax.
-Cons : Banning a very beneficial poke for the meta and potentially not dealing good enough with the misshax problem
5.By banning Snow Warning + Snow Cloak we have :
-Pros : Getting rid of the biggest portion of the main problem,which is misshax(i am saying biggest portion because if your opponent has Aboma or Snover and you have a Snow Cloak mon,misshax could still happen but in a smaller degree)
-Cons : The complexity that a complex ban creates
So the cons are restricting movepools and soft banning pokes,letting Snow Cloak roam free,killing a playstyle and soft banning 2 pokes,removing a beneficial poke from the meta and letting the misshax problem potentially rise again or finally making the ruleset more complex.
Now i want all of you to tell me which of these cons you think will 'cause the smaller harm to the meta?
EDIT : I forgot a solution which just added!
No, we want to get rid of a "whole playstyle" because it's broken and uncompetitive. What is Hail without Snow Cloak and blizzard spam anyway?.....
i'm going to just say that nobody, like nobody, uses abomasnow as itself. its just that shitty. usually when you see abomasnow you see staples like froslass etc. abomasnow is used for one thing and one thing only, and that is snow warning...
also gotta agree with alexwolf's sentiments on complex banning
also gotta agree with alexwolf's sentiments on complex banning
Can any council member watch this log: http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Smurf-vs-FlareBlitz--2011-12-17
... and then legitimately explain to the playerbase how abomasnow as a pokemon is the problem rather than snow warning and snow cloak?
... yeah didnt think so.
... and then legitimately explain to the playerbase how abomasnow as a pokemon is the problem rather than snow warning and snow cloak?
... yeah didnt think so.
Yeah, I voted Froslass first, Snow Cloak second, Abomasnow third, Snow Warning fourth, and the retarded complex ban fifth.
I feel that just as we did with Hippowdon, we should focus on two things with Hail:
1. To remove elements from the game that are far too powerful to exist.
2. To balance Hail as a playstyle.
Competitiveness should take a backseat in this issue, and the power of the abusers should come first. For starters, I would like to stress that auto-weather is not the only type of weather that exists in UU. The moves Rain Dance, Sunny Day, and Sandstorm all negate any auto-weather and have enough surprise value to stop a weather team. They also are not affected by Snow Cloak, obviously. I'm not saying that these moves are the panacea to Hail abuse, but they are definitely worth a mention. And before anyone says "i shouldn't be 4ced to run a stupid move 2 countar hail borken ban" think about how small an effect adding one of these moves has. It's one twenty-fourth of your team. Four percent of your team needs to be tweaked to vastly improve your chances against hail. And since every team in existence has a damn Kingdra it's not a liability either.
I feel since UU's no longer bound by month long rounds and can ban or uphold things as they become apparent, it's in our best interest to place certainty over quickness and test things on a one-by-one basis. I don't like ability bans but will tolerate them, and I hate complex bans. We can fix the metagame without resorting to complex bans.
Since I failed to provide any reasoning in my PM to Jabba in the preliminary vote I'll provide it here as I planned to do.
1. Froslass: This goes along with the "test things one-by-one idea". Hail is ten times harder to deal with than Sand is and that's why I like the idea of possibly voting more than once on the issue. For example, if we ban Froslass and then Snow Warning, we should then bring back Froslass on principle. However, the reason I voted Froslass first is because it's a major component of Hail in both the Snow Cloak abuse strategy and the BlizzSpam strategy. Its easy access to Spikes and Snow Cloak might push it over the edge of brokenness, and I think it's the first thing we should test before swinging at major playstyles.
2. Snow Cloak: I put Snow Cloak second because I believe that it would fix the matter quickly and the fallout from a Snow Cloak ban would explain to us Hail's role in the current metagame and whether it was the right decision.
3. Abomasnow: I put Abomasnow because it's a lot like Froslass. It lets us see to what extent Abomasnow is controlling Hail at the moment, and if the abusers turn out to be the problem, then we can always bring the big tree back down after nixing Froslass or Snow Cloak or something.
4. Snow Warning: It's like Abomasnow, but it jumps the gun a little. Abomasnow should be tested before Hail, and if an Abomasnow-less metagame isn't any better then this can get the test.
5. Snow Warning+Snow Cloak: f complex bans. f them to high heaven, and this time f does not stand for fabulous (cookie for the reference).
About changing it to Snow Warning: let's change it to Froslass!
I feel that just as we did with Hippowdon, we should focus on two things with Hail:
1. To remove elements from the game that are far too powerful to exist.
2. To balance Hail as a playstyle.
Competitiveness should take a backseat in this issue, and the power of the abusers should come first. For starters, I would like to stress that auto-weather is not the only type of weather that exists in UU. The moves Rain Dance, Sunny Day, and Sandstorm all negate any auto-weather and have enough surprise value to stop a weather team. They also are not affected by Snow Cloak, obviously. I'm not saying that these moves are the panacea to Hail abuse, but they are definitely worth a mention. And before anyone says "i shouldn't be 4ced to run a stupid move 2 countar hail borken ban" think about how small an effect adding one of these moves has. It's one twenty-fourth of your team. Four percent of your team needs to be tweaked to vastly improve your chances against hail. And since every team in existence has a damn Kingdra it's not a liability either.
I feel since UU's no longer bound by month long rounds and can ban or uphold things as they become apparent, it's in our best interest to place certainty over quickness and test things on a one-by-one basis. I don't like ability bans but will tolerate them, and I hate complex bans. We can fix the metagame without resorting to complex bans.
Since I failed to provide any reasoning in my PM to Jabba in the preliminary vote I'll provide it here as I planned to do.
1. Froslass: This goes along with the "test things one-by-one idea". Hail is ten times harder to deal with than Sand is and that's why I like the idea of possibly voting more than once on the issue. For example, if we ban Froslass and then Snow Warning, we should then bring back Froslass on principle. However, the reason I voted Froslass first is because it's a major component of Hail in both the Snow Cloak abuse strategy and the BlizzSpam strategy. Its easy access to Spikes and Snow Cloak might push it over the edge of brokenness, and I think it's the first thing we should test before swinging at major playstyles.
2. Snow Cloak: I put Snow Cloak second because I believe that it would fix the matter quickly and the fallout from a Snow Cloak ban would explain to us Hail's role in the current metagame and whether it was the right decision.
3. Abomasnow: I put Abomasnow because it's a lot like Froslass. It lets us see to what extent Abomasnow is controlling Hail at the moment, and if the abusers turn out to be the problem, then we can always bring the big tree back down after nixing Froslass or Snow Cloak or something.
4. Snow Warning: It's like Abomasnow, but it jumps the gun a little. Abomasnow should be tested before Hail, and if an Abomasnow-less metagame isn't any better then this can get the test.
5. Snow Warning+Snow Cloak: f complex bans. f them to high heaven, and this time f does not stand for fabulous (cookie for the reference).
About changing it to Snow Warning: let's change it to Froslass!
Well, I don't like it either, but it is most definitely better than an Abomasnow vote, which is just really pointless imo. Really though, Snow Warning was already voted on and iirc about 70% of voters deemed it not broken in itself. Nothings really changed from then, except for the meta being actually less friendly to hail, so eh. I just wish it was froslass being addressed but I can deal with this.
As I said on irc, I hate not being thorough, but its probably a good idea to just end this.
I'd rather knock out both of them than just ban Abomasnow and realize "oh shit, Snover is just as bad." Let's nip this in the bud and get everything out of the way. Especially with SPL coming up soon.
Is it possible for the council to vote on more than 1 option? Rather than voting Snow Warning or no Snow Warning, why can't they vote for Snow Warning, Snow Cloak, or neither, for instance? Simply Hail or no Hail seems a bit inflexible to me. Just a suggestion.
The silly senate changed their minds. Snow Warning is now suspect
I know everyone's probably sick of Hail logs, but at the end of this battle I was saying to myself "I need to pull some bullshit hax with this Froslass to win" and spoilers, it happens in a big way, unfortunately for my opponent. Snow Cloak probably needs to go because this game was his lol
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Monsieur-Biscuit-vs-ElCap--2011-12-16
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Monsieur-Biscuit-vs-ElCap--2011-12-16
I'm personally against a complex ban of banning Snow Warning + Snow Cloak.
In 4th gen, Abomasnow was banned. This did not do anything about the Snow Cloak nonsense, as people could simply use Snover. The big issue here is clearly Snow Cloak; It turns games from being about who's the better player, to being about whether or not your Flamethrower hits.
Clearly the issue here is Snow Cloak. However, if we ban Snow Cloak, this would lead to a soft ban on Froslass, who is one of two viable Spikers in UU (the other being Roserade), so the best choice is to ban Snow Warning, as it's the best way to nerf Snow Cloak.
In 4th gen, Abomasnow was banned. This did not do anything about the Snow Cloak nonsense, as people could simply use Snover. The big issue here is clearly Snow Cloak; It turns games from being about who's the better player, to being about whether or not your Flamethrower hits.
Clearly the issue here is Snow Cloak. However, if we ban Snow Cloak, this would lead to a soft ban on Froslass, who is one of two viable Spikers in UU (the other being Roserade), so the best choice is to ban Snow Warning, as it's the best way to nerf Snow Cloak.
I disagree lucaroark, as there are other viable spikers such as Deo-D and Qwilfish. Removing Snow Warning is not needed when the only truly broken aspect of Hail is Snow Cloak hax. Blizzard Spam is not a fair argument as it's merely type stacking put into a different term, the part that separates it from said type stacking is snow cloak. Removing a whole playstyle just so we don't soft ban froslass seems ludicrous, if a complex ban for whatever reason is oh so terrible, then a simple banning of snow cloak itself can suffice.
I don't get why people are so against a complex ban of Snow Cloak + Snow Warning. Really, it doesn't have to be anything but a TEMPORARY measure until everything with Snow Cloak has another ability released. At that point, the combination ban can be revoked and a hard ban on Snow Cloak can be enforced. Banning Snow Cloak itself will soft ban something like Froslass, which is not necessary.
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