np: UU Stage 4 - I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas

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That's not the issue with complex bans.

The issue is that people are afraid that there will be some magical force that takes over our minds and makes us to combo ban every single little detail of any Pokemon that's banned (ie that we'd change the Staraptor ban into something ridiculous like "Brave Bird + Close Combat + Reckless + Attack/Speed EVs + Staraptor" ban).

It's just a shame that people even have this mindset. It's as bad as the slippery slope argument where OU will eventually ban everything because something would supposedly become overpowered after another is banned.

There is no downside to the complex ban in this scenario, and for all those who hate complex bans, it can be revoked when all Snow Cloak mons have a secondary ability, and at that point, a hard ban on Snow Cloak can be introduced.
 
The slippery slope already happened, in case you weren't paying attention. Drizzle + Swift Swim changed everyone's attitude toward combination bans, and dozens of proposals have come up since then. Darkrai + Dark Void, Blaziken + Speed Boost, Garchomp + Sand Veil, Sand Rush + Sand Stream, and now Snow Cloak + Snow Warning. Up until the recent SmashPassing ban in RU, none of these things have come to pass either (and if it were up to me, I'd have seen Gorebyss, Smeargle, and Huntail BL2, but alas).

After all is said and done, I suppose it's too late to keep complex banning out of the minds of the people, but there's no ordinance proclaiming we have to let it infect our policy. God forbid I'm somehow convinced that bringing back Drought is a better solution for the current metagame, provided we were only allowed one Chloro Sweeper and Charizard and Victini were not allowed on the same team. The possibilities for balancing Pokemon through complex bans, unlike balancing a tier through hard bans, do not end. The latter solution is a straightforward path to success only opposed by a handful of dissenters who somehow believe it would be better for the metagame if we kept hail through sheer favoritism.

Let me get this out in the open. I want to ban Snow Warning because all of hail has an unhealthy effect on the metagame. Teams stacked with Ice-types discourage the use of slower Pokemon weak to them, such as Rhyperior, who does indeed become dead weight whenever a Hail team is present (just as he did when Drought was around), and the passive damage rules out the effective use of offensive items such as Life Orb for fear of being [very easily] stalled out. There are very few Pokemon immune to Hail's passive damage and the metagame has simply shifted in favor of those who take beatings from Hail not quite as poorly, despite reaping no tangible benefits from it all the same.

Now riddle me this: what benefits do we receive through allowing Hail to run amok? Currently, I am seeing none. Unless you are WhiteQueen I don't see anyone using Hail because they like it. Also, unlike Drizzle or Drought in OU, not a lot of Pokemon can take advantage of a free Blizzard, save for Ice-types, who also have abilities specifically designed to abuse Hail. Who or what is this save helping besides the obscure Ice-types that were already abusing Hail?

EDIT: Small excerpt from an unofficial senate discussion that I found pretty funny

17:27 JabbaTheGriffin: sjcrew do you have anymore replays these are fun to watch
17:27 upstart: he has a lot of replays
17:27 JabbaTheGriffin: you just play like absolute shit, get hazards down, your opponent misses a bunch, and you win
17:28 JabbaTheGriffin: it's like you don't even have to try lol
 
The same can be said for Hail though...Hail is a problem because Snow Cloak exists! Without Snow Cloak Hail wouldn't be a problem...See?
It is clear by now, i think,that Hail alone or Snow Cloak alone are not the problem.Their combination is!

Umm...the same can NOT be said for Hail. The only time I have ever seen Hail used EVER was in OU to interrupt Politoed/Ninetales. It was an anti-meta strategy to cover the omnipresent "weather wars" by using a weather that was A. not permanent, and B. damaged most popular mons in the tier (unlike Sandstorm, which would buff many of them). It was used for strategy.

Furthermore, the only times we have ever seen the "Rock" items were in last gen's UU where we had Damp Rock Ludicolo, and Sun Rock w/e. We had these, of course, because many Pokemon can benefit from the 8 turns of Swift Swim/Chlorophyll.

There is no Hail version of Swift Swim, Chlorophyll, or even Solar Power. Hail is always used defensively, whether by Snow Cloak or Ice Body. So unless you were planning on giving Hail (and maybe an Icy Rock) to a Cloaker, such as Froslass, the likelihood that Hail + Icy Rock + Snow Cloak will become a dominant theme is highly unlikely.

Let's keep in mind, the only reason why Garchomp keeps getting banned (along with Excadrill) and we have the Swift Swim-Rain Dance complex ban in effect is the fact that Garchomp, Excadrill, and the legions of Swim abusers that ruined this game's initial OU are all results of having permanent weather.

The thing is, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Ninetales, and Politoed aren't broken, so you can't ban them. You could ban their abilities, but that can only be done for the first two when they are released in dream world, which might affect their movesets.

Since you don't want to disenfranchise the TTar and Hippo players, well, all you can really do is a complex ban, which makes sense, and I do believe that's what you were getting at.

All I was getting at is that Sandstorm and Hail never, EVER will see play EXCEPT so as to be used like I mentioned before: as an anti-OU anti-weather mechanism to stop weather wars. Nobody, and I do mean nobody, will run the move Hail with the intent of having a Hail team, because Hail requires 5 to 8 turns, and all the mons that abuse it are simply going to need PERMANENT hail to be successful.
 
Umm...the same can NOT be said for Hail. The only time I have ever seen Hail used EVER was in OU to interrupt Politoed/Ninetales. It was an anti-meta strategy to cover the omnipresent "weather wars" by using a weather that was A. not permanent, and B. damaged most popular mons in the tier (unlike Sandstorm, which would buff many of them). It was used for strategy.

Furthermore, the only times we have ever seen the "Rock" items were in last gen's UU where we had Damp Rock Ludicolo, and Sun Rock w/e. We had these, of course, because many Pokemon can benefit from the 8 turns of Swift Swim/Chlorophyll.

There is no Hail version of Swift Swim, Chlorophyll, or even Solar Power. Hail is always used defensively, whether by Snow Cloak or Ice Body. So unless you were planning on giving Hail (and maybe an Icy Rock) to a Cloaker, such as Froslass, the likelihood that Hail + Icy Rock + Snow Cloak will become a dominant theme is highly unlikely.

Let's keep in mind, the only reason why Garchomp keeps getting banned (along with Excadrill) and we have the Swift Swim-Rain Dance complex ban in effect is the fact that Garchomp, Excadrill, and the legions of Swim abusers that ruined this game's initial OU are all results of having permanent weather.

The thing is, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Ninetales, and Politoed aren't broken, so you can't ban them. You could ban their abilities, but that can only be done for the first two when they are released in dream world, which might affect their movesets.

Since you don't want to disenfranchise the TTar and Hippo players, well, all you can really do is a complex ban, which makes sense, and I do believe that's what you were getting at.

All I was getting at is that Sandstorm and Hail never, EVER will see play EXCEPT so as to be used like I mentioned before: as an anti-OU anti-weather mechanism to stop weather wars. Nobody, and I do mean nobody, will run the move Hail with the intent of having a Hail team, because Hail requires 5 to 8 turns, and all the mons that abuse it are simply going to need PERMANENT hail to be successful.
You are posting in the UU thread you know this right?
Hail is the meta in UU,it is not anti-meta.And as i said before Hail is manageable without Snow Cloak(or at least in theory),so it is Snow Cloak AND Snow Warning who create the problem!
 
Hail now has a near-monopoly on the weather. Hippopotas is weak to both of Abomasnow's STABs. Abomasnow isn't the problem, the problem is Snow Cloak. It's uncompetitive, and it lets Froslass get up at least 2 layers of Spikes a majority of the time, and the most popular spinner, Donphan, doesn't stand a chance against Hail.
 
Alright, so when is this ban happening? I'm getting pretty tired of getting scrubbed out of secure wins by people just mindlessly spamming Substitute with Snow Cloak mons and random shit getting frozen.
 
So I figured I would try and use Hail and guess what?

ITS COMPLETE AND UTTER HORSE SHIT

The only times I would lose was when other peope using Hail got even luckier than I was. Frosslass is an absolute bitch with Snow Cloak and Freezes are everywhere with all the Blizzards flying around. Seriously pisses me off that this thing is even in the meta. Ban please.
 
You are posting in the UU thread you know this right?
Hail is the meta in UU,it is not anti-meta.And as i said before Hail is manageable without Snow Cloak(or at least in theory),so it is Snow Cloak AND Snow Warning who create the problem!

Now we're just at a problem of confusion. When I say Hail, I don't mean Snow Warning; I mean the attack called Hail. The one with 5-8 PP.

I'm saying nobody uses that as an attack. I listed the reasons why. I agree that SNOW WARNING and Snow Cloak are a problem, but HAIL, the attack, is not a problem with Snow Cloak because nobody uses Hail.
 
NOBODY refers to Hail meaning the ATTACK Hail. When people talk about Hail, they of course are talking about Snow Warning. If talking about Hail+SC, we always mean Snover/Aboma+SC.
 
Now we're just at a problem of confusion. When I say Hail, I don't mean Snow Warning; I mean the attack called Hail. The one with 5-8 PP.

I'm saying nobody uses that as an attack. I listed the reasons why. I agree that SNOW WARNING and Snow Cloak are a problem, but HAIL, the attack, is not a problem with Snow Cloak because nobody uses Hail.

What weather condition does Snow Warning bring out?

I think it's almost unanimous that the senate wants to ban hail in some regard. Hopefully it will be time soon.
 
You do realise that even after Drought's ban in UU it was still possible to run sun teams by running Sunny Day right? So now, even if SW is banned you can still use Hail teams by running the move Hail...

Competitive level of the move Hail is irrelevant imo, nobody cares if the move sucks, right now the problem is if auto-hail is broken/not, nothing to do with normal hail
 
Temporary hail does not bring about the immediate benefits that sun or rain do, namely the instant speed boosts to chlorophyll and swift swim pokemon. Hail also doesn't increase the power of Ice-type moves. The majority of the abusers of hail require perma-hail to be anywhere near effective, which is why no one ever uses the move hail. The same goes for the move sandstorm. Sunny Day and Rain Dance are only used because of their more immediate benefits, meaning hail will rarely, or even never, be used in standard UU, should it get banned.
 
The slippery slope already happened, in case you weren't paying attention. Drizzle + Swift Swim changed everyone's attitude toward combination bans, and dozens of proposals have come up since then. Darkrai + Dark Void, Blaziken + Speed Boost, Garchomp + Sand Veil, Sand Rush + Sand Stream, and now Snow Cloak + Snow Warning. Up until the recent SmashPassing ban in RU, none of these things have come to pass either (and if it were up to me, I'd have seen Gorebyss, Smeargle, and Huntail BL2, but alas).

After all is said and done, I suppose it's too late to keep complex banning out of the minds of the people, but there's no ordinance proclaiming we have to let it infect our policy. God forbid I'm somehow convinced that bringing back Drought is a better solution for the current metagame, provided we were only allowed one Chloro Sweeper and Charizard and Victini were not allowed on the same team. The possibilities for balancing Pokemon through complex bans, unlike balancing a tier through hard bans, do not end. The latter solution is a straightforward path to success only opposed by a handful of dissenters who somehow believe it would be better for the metagame if we kept hail through sheer favoritism.

Let me get this out in the open. I want to ban Snow Warning because all of hail has an unhealthy effect on the metagame. Teams stacked with Ice-types discourage the use of slower Pokemon weak to them, such as Rhyperior, who does indeed become dead weight whenever a Hail team is present (just as he did when Drought was around), and the passive damage rules out the effective use of offensive items such as Life Orb for fear of being [very easily] stalled out. There are very few Pokemon immune to Hail's passive damage and the metagame has simply shifted in favor of those who take beatings from Hail not quite as poorly, despite reaping no tangible benefits from it all the same.

Now riddle me this: what benefits do we receive through allowing Hail to run amok? Currently, I am seeing none. Unless you are WhiteQueen I don't see anyone using Hail because they like it. Also, unlike Drizzle or Drought in OU, not a lot of Pokemon can take advantage of a free Blizzard, save for Ice-types, who also have abilities specifically designed to abuse Hail. Who or what is this save helping besides the obscure Ice-types that were already abusing Hail?

EDIT: Small excerpt from an unofficial senate discussion that I found pretty funny

17:27 JabbaTheGriffin: sjcrew do you have anymore replays these are fun to watch
17:27 upstart: he has a lot of replays
17:27 JabbaTheGriffin: you just play like absolute shit, get hazards down, your opponent misses a bunch, and you win
17:28 JabbaTheGriffin: it's like you don't even have to try lol
I will answer to your post in 2 parts.In the first part i will explain what prevents complex bans from getting out of control and in the second part i will explain what are the benefits of keeping Snow Warning around:

What prevents complex bans from getting out of control:

First of all simple bans are always our main and first solution for balancing the meta.
We resort to complex bans when we can't fix the problem in the meta with single bans.
Also when making a complex ban we have to make sure that the benefits outweight the negatives.Notice how this wasn't the case with single bans.Regardless of what happened after a suspect was banned,we banned him/it anyway because it was broken.
For example a broken threat could be keeping other broken threats in check,and the banning of said threat would lead to an even more unbalanced meta.But regardless of that situation we would still ban that threat simply because it was broken.But with complex bans we can't think so simply because the suspect is a whole situation and not a single factor(ability,pokemon).

For example when Aldaron's proposal was introduced,it got accepted because the positives (diversity,balancing other weathers) outweighted the negatives (banning non broken pokes in Drizzle conditions).

So the thought proccess about bans goes like this as far as i have understood:

1.Fix the problem with the more simple solution(simple bans)
2.If the problem cannot be fixed with step 1 then fix the problem with the next simpler solution (simple complex ban)
3.If the problem still cannot be fixed with step 2 then fix the problem with the next simpler solution (not so simple complex ban)
4.So on...

Your example of allowing Drought back if only 1 Chloro sweeper was accepted in each team,and without Victini and Charizard won't happen because there are much simpler steps.
Banning the ability because the majority of the Chloro sweepers or sun abusers that are competitive viable(we are not taking into account shit like Charmander right?) were broken under it was the simpler solution and so we chose it.It was clear which the broken factor was!

But in our situation it is not that clear...Snow Warning does not break the majority of hail abusers(or even if it does we have no evidence as of now).Snow Warning breaks only the majority of Snow Cloak abusers! There are many more Hail abusers like Blizzard spammers and Ice Body pokes that are just fine under Hail.
So we cannot resort to step 1,which is a simple ban(Snow Warning or Aboma/Snover/Froslass) and we must go to the step 2.
The source of all the major problems is the commbination of Snow Cloak + Snow Warning! And this is what we should ban for now! We should choose the next simpler step which is the simpler complex ban!
Of 'course as SJ Crew said some guy could propose a ban of only one Hail abuser and not allowing Snow Cloak users carry the move Substitute but this wouldn't be the simpler solution!
It is true that with complex bans there are infinite possibilites but we are wise enough to seperate the rational from the irrational ones!

What are the benefits of keeping Snow Warning around:


By keeping Snow Warning we manage to keep one major playstyle(hail teams) and 2 or 3 team archetypes(Hail Offense,Hail balance,Hail Stall).
We also manage to keep more than 5 pokes in UU (by keep i mean keep them as UU viable not UU by usage) with Snow Warning present such as Walrein,Glaceon,Rotom-F,Abomasnow,Cryogonal and some more that i may forget...
So instead of losing all these pokes why can't we chose the complex ban which gets us rid of the major problem(misshax from Snow Cloak)by nerfing hail and making it manageable,at least in theory,with zero negatives?
And before anyone says that we should chose the simple ban because according to my thought proccess the simple bans are the step 1 of the banning proccess,i have to say this... We chose to make simple bans when they are fit for the situation and when they don't ban something that isn't broken! Snow Warning isn't broken on itself,nor it provides unparalleled support. It only breaks some pokes when the ability Snow Cloak gets in the mix!

Sry for this wall of text but the whole matter with complex bans is pretty messed up and i had to speak my mind! Thx to anyone who spent his time reading all this...!
 
Or we can just regulate those complex bans ourselves. If anyone remembers, we made the game-mechanic changing sleep clause official, and immediately after, some goons posted a remove critical hits thread. Everyone essentially beat them back down into their hole because it was clear where the line was.
 
You do realise that even after Drought's ban in UU it was still possible to run sun teams by running Sunny Day right? So now, even if SW is banned you can still use Hail teams by running the move Hail...

Competitive level of the move Hail is irrelevant imo, nobody cares if the move sucks, right now the problem is if auto-hail is broken/not, nothing to do with normal hail

Like I said, there's a reason we can see Sunny Day-Heat Rock Chlorophyll teams and Rain Dance-Damp Rock Swift Swim teams; it allows for Pokemon to have chances for kills they may not have had otherwise. Never have we seen people using Sandstorm-Smooth Rock Sand Veil teams, nor have we seen Hail-Icy Rock Snow Cloak teams. The reason, of course, is because Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are defensive abilities. They may increase evasion, which is indirectly aggressive, but they only increase your luck factor by 15%, whereas Chlorophyll and Swift Swim increase your speed factor by 50%.

If you want to look at my argument as one that is a bit more pertinent, look at it as such; with no Snow Warning, Snow Cloak doesn't exist. Why? Because if you take away Snow Warning, what is Snow Cloak left with? Hail. The problem is, as I mentioned just now, never in Pokemon history have we seen people using Hail with Icy Rock to abuse the ability Snow Cloak. Never, and we won't ever. Why? Because Snow Cloak is only ever a solid ability with PERMANENT Hail, not temporary Hail, and especially not if you have to have dedicated Hail pokemon to abuse the Snow Cloakers.

SOOOOOOO

If you guys want a tl;dr version, then my vote goes behind a complex ban. Snow Warning without Snow Cloak still leaves room for the rare Ice Body pokemon, and also leaves room for Blizzard spammers, the multitude of which decreases when you realize that many Blizzard spammers are, you guessed it, Snow Cloak pokemon, who would either have to find new abilities or couldn't be used with permanent hail.

So, yeah, the two working together is BS because without Snow Warning, Snow Cloak would never see play.
 
SJCrew said:
Let me get this out in the open. I want to ban Snow Warning because all of hail has an unhealthy effect on the metagame. Teams stacked with Ice-types discourage the use of slower Pokemon weak to them, such as Rhyperior, who does indeed become dead weight whenever a Hail team is present (just as he did when Drought was around), and the passive damage rules out the effective use of offensive items such as Life Orb for fear of being [very easily] stalled out. There are very few Pokemon immune to Hail's passive damage and the metagame has simply shifted in favor of those who take beatings from Hail not quite as poorly, despite reaping no tangible benefits from it all the same.

Now riddle me this: what benefits do we receive through allowing Hail to run amok? Currently, I am seeing none. Unless you are WhiteQueen I don't see anyone using Hail because they like it. Also, unlike Drizzle or Drought in OU, not a lot of Pokemon can take advantage of a free Blizzard, save for Ice-types, who also have abilities specifically designed to abuse Hail. Who or what is this save helping besides the obscure Ice-types that were already abusing Hail?

How is this even an argument ...

What benefits do we have through allowing Stealth Rock to run amok? Teams stacked with Stealth Rock discourage the use of Pokemon weak to it, like Moltres, who becomes semi-dead weight when Stealth Rock is up. There are very few Pokemon immune to Stealth Rock, and the metagame has simply shifted in favour of those who can take Stealth Rock damage not quite as poorly. I doubt anyone uses Stealth Rock because they like it, they use it because it's a freaking powerful move. Stealth Rock benefits a ton of Pokemon, but only if you have used it and your opponent hasn't.

And since you mentioned how hail discourages the use of offensive items like Life Orb, then I'll point out that Toxic Spikes discourages the use of offensive items like Life Orb too. What will you say to a ban of Stealth Rock, Spikes and Toxic Spikes?

If you are going to ban something, do it because it is overpowered or uncompetitive, not because of vague reasons like these.
 
What benefits do we have through allowing Stealth Rock to run amok?
Keeping certain powerful threats in check. The thought of Weavile, Victini, Darmanitan, and Chandelure with no Stealth Rock in sight makes me shiver. They're already tough Pokemon to counter with it up.

Hail keeps everything in check that isn't Hail. All teams, all playstyles. My point is that it's dominant as an accumulation of those advantages that give its teammates, and only its teammates, buffs. You can't use one, two or even three Pokemon just to counter 'Hail'. They can all be easily be outlasted due to the passive damage, their own hazards weakness, or Snow Cloak users. Even total newbies to the tier who pick up Hail win against normal teams with stunning regularly, as I'm discovering more and more of this recently on the ladder.

I am no longer interested in singling out the most broken thing about Hail just so we can nerf it enough to keep it. Each day I play, I accrue more and more evidence that it's just not worth preserving.

And since you mentioned how hail discourages the use of offensive items like Life Orb, then I'll point out that Toxic Spikes discourages the use of offensive items like Life Orb too.
Just as there were Poison-types that absorbed Toxic Spikes upon entry, I can only pray Gamfreak invent a new mechanic in the next game that allows a single Ice-type on your team to clear the field of Hail upon entry.

Whoops.

Guess you didn't think that one through, huh?

What will you say to a ban of Stealth Rock, Spikes and Toxic Spikes?
I already have a discussion with the senate planned about Spikes, or at least the most dominant Spikers planned. Stealth Rock is a competitive standard at this point that helps many Pokemon, but Spikes in tandem is excess free damage. Many of UU's Pokemon are grounded and we have very few good spinners to get rid of them. We were discussing UU statistics recently, and there's a very real possibility that we could even be losing Donphan.

My reasons are simple, but thorough. Most average teams won't last long against hail. Instead of blaming one aspect of hail, I will willingly vote to get rid of it all. You'll see more of it in my suspect paragraph once the vote has concluded.
 
How is this even an argument ...

What benefits do we have through allowing Stealth Rock to run amok? Teams stacked with Stealth Rock discourage the use of Pokemon weak to it, like Moltres, who becomes semi-dead weight when Stealth Rock is up. There are very few Pokemon immune to Stealth Rock, and the metagame has simply shifted in favour of those who can take Stealth Rock damage not quite as poorly. I doubt anyone uses Stealth Rock because they like it, they use it because it's a freaking powerful move. Stealth Rock benefits a ton of Pokemon, but only if you have used it and your opponent hasn't.

And since you mentioned how hail discourages the use of offensive items like Life Orb, then I'll point out that Toxic Spikes discourages the use of offensive items like Life Orb too. What will you say to a ban of Stealth Rock, Spikes and Toxic Spikes?

If you are going to ban something, do it because it is overpowered or uncompetitive, not because of vague reasons like these.

Hi.

First of all, I don't play UU, let's just get this out of the way. But SR has an important effect on the metagame. I'm not even going to mention how it checks certain threats, that's been covered enough. It's important for offensive teams because it promotes momentum; every mon is hit by SR for SOME amount of damage, thus SR in the metagame gives additional cost to switching out repeatedly, and gives switching out a bit of a cost benefit analysis as opposed to being able to switch out to a counter infinitely. Additionally, it's only a single layer for maximum effect, so it's fast enough for offensive teams to consistently set up without losing precious momentum like spikes requires. On the flip side, stealth rock is an additional layer for balance and stall teams to do more damage with. As to the point where it worsens certain types; so? All types aren't created equal, and not favoring certain types has no effect on metagame balance in terms of a team composition standpoint. EVERYONE benefits from using SR; that's why so many teams use it. Hail only benefits hail teams. This is not a condemnation of hail at all; like I said, I don't play uu. I'm saying comparing the effect of hail to that of SR is unfair.
 
Keeping certain powerful threats in check. The thought of Weavile, Victini, Darmanitan, and Chandelure with no Stealth Rock in sight makes me shiver. They're already tough Pokemon to counter with it up.

K...but all of those Pokemon get touched by both Spikes and Toxic Spikes, two totally balanced, viable entry hazards.

There has never and will never be anything balanced about Stealth Rock. It is the absolute best entry hazard, has some of the largest distribution of any move, and successfully makes certain Pokemon unviable, whilst others, such as Moltres and Scyther, could be an entire tier higher if the move didn't exist or didn't deal such ruthless damage to those who so happen to be weak to rock. That's not even mentioning the fact that many physically-attacking Pokemon have access to Stone Edge and Rock Slide already.
 
K...but all of those Pokemon get touched by both Spikes and Toxic Spikes, two totally balanced, viable entry hazards.
Spikes is nowhere near the same deterrent for Fire Pokemon that SR is. 12%? Big whoop. I still get to switch in freely and pick off as many threats as I want. Find me a few more good users of Toxic Spikes and get rid of that nasty weakness where having a Roserade totally negates them and we'd have a debate.

There has never and will never be anything balanced about Stealth Rock. It is the absolute best entry hazard, has some of the largest distribution of any move, and successfully makes certain Pokemon unviable, whilst others, such as Moltres and Scyther, could be an entire tier higher if the move didn't exist or didn't deal such ruthless damage to those who so happen to be weak to rock. That's not even mentioning the fact that many physically-attacking Pokemon have access to Stone Edge and Rock Slide already.
Stealth Rock is not fair to all types, that's been acknowledged. But there are plenty of other good types that are neutral to and/or resist it and I'm happy just as happy to use them instead to win games. Either you pay the price and try to clear the field for those Pokemon, or you just use better Pokemon altogether who aren't quite as compromised. There are so many viable options for the latter, not even comparable to the handful we have to beat hail, only to often times not even end up doing their job at all.
 
You're missing the point SJCrew. Stealth Rock is clearly so entrenched in the metagame that banning it will have dramatic consequences that will not only overhaul the tier, it will throw all the tiers out of sync (imagine OU with SR not banned and UU with SR banned, etc). But the real question is why hail is so different from Stealth Rock. Like I showed you, the reasons you exhibited can equally apply to Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes. Here, take a look.

Hail keeps everything in check that isn't Hail. All teams, all playstyles. (#1) My point is that it's dominant as an accumulation of those advantages that give its teammates, and only its teammates, buffs (#2). You can't use one, two or even three Pokemon just to counter 'Hail' (#3). They can all be easily be outlasted due to the passive damage, their own hazards weakness, or Snow Cloak users (#4). Even total newbies to the tier who pick up Hail win against normal teams with stunning regularly, as I'm discovering more and more of this recently on the ladder.

#1: Stealth Rock keeps everything in check that is weak to Stealth Rock. All Pokemon, and all associated playstyles.
#2: an accumulation of switches into Stealth Rock gives the Stealth Rock user's teammates, and only its teammates (unless you have weird Torrent users just within range of SR) buffs.
#3. You can't use one, two or even three Pokemon to "counter" Stealth Rock. You have to use a spinner / Xatu, and along with the spinner you have to use a few Pokemon that aren't weak to Stealth Rock. However reliable the spinner may be. God help you if you're trying to use Hitmontop + Articuno + Zapdos + Moltres + Vespiquen + Charizard.
#4. All the spinners can be outlasted due to passive damage, the damage they take from hazards, and ghosts.

Now if you say that total noobs can use hail and beat non-hail teams, you have some argument about why hail is overpowered (although only some, because this is hardly a firm reason why hail is overpowered - it's only a symptom), which IS a good reason to ban it. But everything else you have posted is completely unconvincing. So teams stacked with Ice types keeps Rhyperior in check. So what? Why do you pick on Rhyperior? Teams stacked with bulky waters keep Darmanitan in check. Are you implying we ought to ban bulky waters? The metagame has shifted to Pokemon that can survive hail's onslaught. So ... ? Why is this bad? The metagame has also shifted to Pokemon that can survive Stealth Rock's onslaught, and it has shifted because Machamp / Chandelure etc are in the tier. Are you implying that they should all be banned then? Hail benefits Suicune, Milotic, etc that can take Blizzards and survive. Why do you favour them, but not Charizard, Articuno etc that can't take Stealth Rock?

The arguments you have exhibited for banning hail entirely is completely unconvincing and I'll even venture quite silly. If you are going to ban hail, show some reasons that don't apply for Stealth Rock, and any other thing in the metagame as to why it should be banned. I'm not in any way arguing that Snow Warning / Snow Cloak shouldn't be banned, but I AM saying that the reasons you have set forth are very weak. FYI, Snow Cloak <-> Sand Veil, and Snow Warning <-> Sand Stream.
 
Sry to get into the middle of this discussion but i have something to say @ SJ Crew.

You say that the effects of Hail teams benefit only Hail teams.Here we are good and i agree!
You also say that the benefits of Hail are so big that they are causing the playstyle to be a dominant strategy!I also agree to this but only to an extent. A dominant strategy is not necessarily a broken strategy...
It is simply the most easy and effective strategy to use! There will always be such a strategy in every meta.

Also you don't mention the negatives that Hail teams have to suffer in order to get their hands on the benefits...
Most Hail teams run ~3 Ice Types,which makes the team's defensive synergy very bad.Sure you can put Slowbro,or Suicune or whatever but the fact is that those mons will so pressed to do their job that your switches to them become predictable and that you will be screwed if one of them goes down...
Also Hail teams have huge trouble with SR which is simply in 95% of the teams.

After Snow Cloak goes,either with a simple ban or a complex ban,i think that Hail's drawbacks will balance out their benefits!
Without Snow Cloak it won't be so easy to build a hail team.You won't be able to get away with bad build teams and a lot of missplays just because Snow Cloak could save you.
Having 100% accurate Blizzards and the little extra damage each turn will be good but many times not so good to justify the liablility of many ice types in a team and the huge weakness to SR.

EDIT: Also i agree with Banedon that ,SJ Crew,you can't present the fact that some pokes are poor matches against Hail,as a reason to Hail's brokeness.You said it yourself it is a dominant strategy and dominant strategies always cause cetralization around them!
Like Scizor,SR,Rain etc.
 
Okay.. Looks like pretty much everyone agrees to that hail + snow cloak is broken, but most are unsure wether hail itself is broken or not. Why not just ban Snow cloak + snow warning and Abomasnow and force hail to use Snover? Now that would nerf hail a lot since snover is baaad (you have the endeavor set, but it will be decent at most). If hail still proves to be banworthy after the next round, then ban it altogether, although this seem to me like the most fair decision for everyone.
 
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