From looking at the logs posted by you folks it seems pretty obvious that it's frosslass and frosslass alone that is pushing hail over the top. Frosslass is the only one with the tools to be able to abuse snow cloak in a way that she consistintly wins games with this tactic. The only pokemon that come close to lass is mamoswine but he doesn't have the speed or supporting moves (spikes and thunder wave) to do more with a lucky snow cloak miss than get a extra attack on slowbro or something. Banning snow cloak as a whole seems like overkill when only frosslass is able to consistiently abuse it. Yeah the occasional miss can be annoying but it's gonna be rarely gamechanging with the other three users of snow cloak, you shouldn't ban something for being annoying. Yeah lass does have uses outside of hail but that is besides the point, i though you guys were supposed to look at the pokemon as a whole, not nerf one paticuilar aspect that isn't broken on the other pokemon in order to keep her in a lower tier. Besides wouldn't one less good spiker be kinda a good thing for the metagame, as spikes are already almost TOO easy to set up and maitain as it is. As for bilzzspam, I have doubts that it is actually broken, back in gen 4 it wasn't a big deal and the only new blizzspammers we got are rotom-F, abomasnow and frosslass herself. I personally haven't had any trouble with blizzspam and i wasn't even thinking about the stratagey when i was teambuilding. It honestly is kinda baffleing as to why SO many people are against just banning frosslass.
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np: UU Stage 4 - I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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I don't see how you have a legitimate complaint, all of the moves you missed had imperfect accuracy without snowcloak anyway, and the paralysis is just part of the game
I have always thought Froslass is the root of the problem with hail teams in uu, as she has all the tricks necessary to abuse her ability.. people who disagree, please explain how passive evasion is in any way considered competitive :s
No, Froslass is not the main problem. It can get spikes up and paralyze your team, but Mamoswine can abuse the misses to the same effect. The only difference is that if you miss against Mamoswine, you're going to lose a pokemon instead of have another layer of spikes set up against you.
I feel this was the wrong choice and I believe either Froslass or Snow Cloak should be banned. Hail was never the problem; it was the abusers of it. With Froslass, she can get a full layer of Spikes no problem, and Mamoswine can get really lucky and sweep without getting a scratch. Those were the problems that Hail brought. Putting Abomasnow as a suspect didn't fix anything whatsoever because the problem will resurface with Snover.
I like the fact that everyone simply ignored my post.
You could answer,or just tell me if it was that bad that it didn't deserve any attention...
I am going to post it once more to see if i get any answer:
So now that instead of Aboma we have Snow Warning as a suspect,we are going to ban an entire playstyle because our pokes miss against Snow Cloak pokes?
This doesn't seem reasonable to me at all...
Why can't we just first remove the most problematic factor,Snow Cloak,by either way(banning the ability or combo banning the 2 abilities),and then see how the meta goes?
Most people don't find Blizzspam broken so i don't really get why are we banning Hail...
Our main problem right now is not Blizzspam,is not Snow Cloak without Hail,is not Froslass outside of Hail,is not Hail itself,but it is Snow Cloak in conjuction with Snow Warning!
You could answer,or just tell me if it was that bad that it didn't deserve any attention...
I am going to post it once more to see if i get any answer:
Now my opinion is that the combo ban is the best solution,because it 'causes the smaller harm to the meta,while dealing with the problem very effectively!
So now that instead of Aboma we have Snow Warning as a suspect,we are going to ban an entire playstyle because our pokes miss against Snow Cloak pokes?
This doesn't seem reasonable to me at all...
Why can't we just first remove the most problematic factor,Snow Cloak,by either way(banning the ability or combo banning the 2 abilities),and then see how the meta goes?
Most people don't find Blizzspam broken so i don't really get why are we banning Hail...
Our main problem right now is not Blizzspam,is not Snow Cloak without Hail,is not Froslass outside of Hail,is not Hail itself,but it is Snow Cloak in conjuction with Snow Warning!
I do agree with you that banning snow warning is pretty silly, Hail by itself is definatly not broken at all (100% accurate blizzards, THE HORROR!) Banning an entier playstyle just to keep one pokemon UU seems a little ridiculous. I could sortaaaaa understand the reasoning with just trying to ban abomasnow but banning hail as a whole seems over the top.
My big problem with you guys banning snow cloak, or worse yet, doing a snow cloak + snow warning ban. Is that frosslass really seems to be the only pokemon that comes close to breaking the ability, misses with the other three may be annoying but 90% of the time it's not gonna decide the match, worst comes to worst, they get an extra attack on your bulky water or something. It shouldn't really matter that froslass has uses outside of hail, espeon had uses out side of baton pass and, going to the higher tiers, garchomp was VERY useful outside of sand. Why ban an ability that is not broken on 3/4 pokemon that have it to keep the other one in uu?
I would have agreed that Froslass is the only offender, if it wasn't for Mamoswine, who still has decent Speed to throw up a Sub on slower mons and fish for misses.
Surprisingly the only thing that those logs convinced me is that Snow Cloak misses do not occur as much as people claimed. Usually a perfect-accuracy move will miss once per match, and a less-accurate move (lol Focus Blast) would have a good chance of missing, but that's to be expected. I agree with kd24 that there's nothing really outrageously broken here.
However, I do understand that SOMETHING has to be fixed (like Stoutland + Hippowdon), and focusing on Snow Cloak / abusers hits the heart of the issue, rather than Snow Warning, which is simply removing a playstyle that needs some fine-tuning. It's analagous to banning Drizzle, just "because we don't want to deal with Swift Swimmers and Hydro Pump-spamming."
Surprisingly the only thing that those logs convinced me is that Snow Cloak misses do not occur as much as people claimed. Usually a perfect-accuracy move will miss once per match, and a less-accurate move (lol Focus Blast) would have a good chance of missing, but that's to be expected. I agree with kd24 that there's nothing really outrageously broken here.
However, I do understand that SOMETHING has to be fixed (like Stoutland + Hippowdon), and focusing on Snow Cloak / abusers hits the heart of the issue, rather than Snow Warning, which is simply removing a playstyle that needs some fine-tuning. It's analagous to banning Drizzle, just "because we don't want to deal with Swift Swimmers and Hydro Pump-spamming."
This is why banning Abomasnow would be the best idea, by banning as little as possible. Rather than eliminating an entire playstyle, or soft banning or anything like that, we could call it a nerf and make Sand on even terms with Hail. Hail is such a huge problem now because Sand got a nerf. Just think, if we nerf Hail in the same way we did Sand, then they'll be on an even playing field.
Plus, there are things that can counter Hail. Machamp has no accuracy issues, and Chandelure and Darmanitan absolutely rape it with a Scarf. Besides, I don't think that anything should be voted on just yet, since the new tiers will come out in only a couple of weeks. Why shape up the metagame in a way that really won't matter at all in only a couple of weeks. I'm not saying that Hail would be bad, but it might be all that is needed to to balance out the tier. That's why, if anything, Abomasnow should be banned because it has the smallest effect on a tier to be shaken up soon anyway.
At first, I think that Froslass must be banned before overall hail. He is the main reason that hail is broken in UU... The best Snow Cloak abuser, he take advantage of his speed and can use substitute outrunning almost all, and also is one of the best users of blizzard (Blizzspam), because he can beat Chansey and maybe Milotic due to taunt. My opinion is that without Froslass, hail is much more competitive in UU.
I'm really not bothered what goes from hail, snowver + abomasnow (which seems unwarranted) or the complex ban, which to me makes the most sense too me (since it preserves a whole playstyle, whilst only erradictaing the luck based aspect of it i.e. the bit everyone is complaining about, or what i hate) it needs to be nerfed like sand was.
TLDNR see alexwolfs post, the complex ban is 100 times better that just banning snow warning.
TLDNR see alexwolfs post, the complex ban is 100 times better that just banning snow warning.
Okay, I've tested this metagame a little and I believe that Snow Cloak is not broken. If anything has to be adjusted right now it is Blizzspam.
Snow Cloak lets Froslass get up three layers when it's probably going to get up two anyway It lets Mamoswine get one extra hit in one fifth of the time. It lets Glaceon keep raping even though it's probably going to rape anyway because it's a motherfucking GLaceon.
Snow Cloak is annoying and a pretty nice troll ability, but I don't think it's banworthy. I am leaning towards Ban on Snow Warning simply because BlizzSpam is simply monstrous. If Snow Warning is not banned and something about Snow Cloak is, I will not be voting to ban it. I've tested it out with my own Hail team and it's simply underwhelming. 20% evasion, ehh.
Snow Cloak lets Froslass get up three layers when it's probably going to get up two anyway It lets Mamoswine get one extra hit in one fifth of the time. It lets Glaceon keep raping even though it's probably going to rape anyway because it's a motherfucking GLaceon.
Snow Cloak is annoying and a pretty nice troll ability, but I don't think it's banworthy. I am leaning towards Ban on Snow Warning simply because BlizzSpam is simply monstrous. If Snow Warning is not banned and something about Snow Cloak is, I will not be voting to ban it. I've tested it out with my own Hail team and it's simply underwhelming. 20% evasion, ehh.
I disagree with you there, but even so, banning Snow Cloak still solves the problem, so it doesn't really matter. You miss against froslass, big deal. It gets an extra layer of Spikes up. But you miss against mamoswine, and then your pokemon dies, and if that happens to be your mamoswine counter then you've just lost the game to a Snow Cloak miss. It doesn't happen all the time, but when it does, it's really uncompetitive and ruins the game :\
Yes snow cloak can be underwhelming, but when it activates a miss can easily cost games, a miss on froslass means another layer of spikes or possibly a dead mon ( for example scarfkrookodile misses crunch and is koed back by blizzard). In the case of mamoswine and glaceon a miss basically means a kill.
The UU council is here to make a fair and fun metagame, when you are basically saying snow cloak isnt broken because only a small number of games are ruined by its effects it makes me doubt wether you are striving towards a fair metagame, as even 1 in 50 games being lost due to snow cloak misses is ridiculous.
Ban Snow Cloak? ROFLcopter, get real guys, what're you going to do if permanent hail goes away? Run Icy Rock and Hail?
Snow Cloak only exists because permanent Hail does. If there is no permanent hail, nobody would use Snow Cloak. Come on now.
Snow Cloak only exists because permanent Hail does. If there is no permanent hail, nobody would use Snow Cloak. Come on now.
The same can be said for Hail though...Hail is a problem because Snow Cloak exists! Without Snow Cloak Hail wouldn't be a problem...See?
It is clear by now, i think,that Hail alone or Snow Cloak alone are not the problem.Their combination is!
As the tide of Ban Fever is reaching its high water mark, I realize that I, too, should jump on the ban(d) wagon. Thus, I have decided to jump on said wagon. I support either an outright ban of Froslass to BL, or the proposed combination ban. Don't get me wrong; I hate combination bans just as much as the next guy, but I believe that, after banning Froslass only, the combination ban causes the least damage to this metagame. However, a Froslass ban should be the preferred solution. If bans must be instituted, moderation is a virtue.
I too will throw my support behind Snow Warning+Snow Cloak being banned. Despite being an outspoken objector to complex bans I believe this is the most prudent option to resolve the problem, as well as the option causing the least residual damage to not only UU but RU as well.
Except . . . with Froslass gone, nothing gets solved, and those crucial misses will still happen on Mamo and Glaceon. Also, Abomasnow being banned will also change nothing. So, like everyone else here I vote that Snow Cloak gets banned entirely or (cringe) a stupid fucking combination ban if you must.
I must ask here...what's the huge issue with complex bans? I'm relatively new to PO and didn't find the Drizzle/SWSW ban too difficult to understand...
Some people say that the strategy known as Blizzspam is also broken in hail.
That's not the issue with complex bans.
The issue is that people are afraid that there will be some magical force that takes over our minds and makes us to combo ban every single little detail of any Pokemon that's banned (ie that we'd change the Staraptor ban into something ridiculous like "Brave Bird + Close Combat + Reckless + Attack/Speed EVs + Staraptor" ban).
The issue is that people are afraid that there will be some magical force that takes over our minds and makes us to combo ban every single little detail of any Pokemon that's banned (ie that we'd change the Staraptor ban into something ridiculous like "Brave Bird + Close Combat + Reckless + Attack/Speed EVs + Staraptor" ban).
Really? Then I agree with JoceyMaster, the complex ban is pretty similar to Drizzle + Swift Swim and it wasn't a problem.
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