np: UU Stage 4 - I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas

[kokoloko]

I know that not everyone posts here but it is one of the few ways you senate members can learn people's opinion.And if i remember right isn't the senate ought to bring suspects after discussing them in public. So if the majority of the people in the megathread,and in the forums in general,don't want Snow Warning banned and prefer Snow Cloak banned,i cannot understand why you should ignore them... Don't we chose the suspects,with your help,and you chose what gets banned?

Since when does ~5 - 10 people not wanting Hail banned > everyone else who does? If you actually count the number of pro-ban people and compare it to the number of anti-ban people, you'll see you're pretty heavily outnumbered.

I don't know how often you go on #genvuu, but really the only thing that goes on there is people bitching about how retarded it is to keep hail around, how unenjoyable laddering has become because of hail, and how they just got scrubbed out of pretty secure wins because of a Snow Cloak miss / freeze.

The statement that more people want Hail to stay than those who want it to go is really completely baseless.

 

[alexwolf]

Personally, I think that by banning Snow Warning that we're essentially dealing with all these problems (BlizzSpam/SnowCloak) at once, as if SW is banned, I can't imagine any Hail+Icy Rock teams popping up...
It may kill a playstyle, but let's be fair; if the two issues were banned leaving just hail, would anyone actually use it?
AKA Does anyone use hail without using BlizzSpam or Snow cloak nowerdays?

The point is that we don't know yet if Blizzspam is broken,so why not take out the biggest problem out and then see how the meta handles Blizzspam teams?
If Blizzspam is also broken then i agree that banning Snow Warning would be the right option!

 

[JoyceyMaster]

The point is that we don't know yet if Blizzspam is broken,so why not take out the biggest problem out and then see how the meta handles Blizzspam teams?
If Blizzspam is also broken then i agree that banning Snow Warning would be the right option!

You do make a fair point there!
Quick question, does Blizzard always hit SC pokemon, or is it still 80% accuracy?

 

[alexwolf]

Since when does ~5 - 10 people not wanting Hail banned > everyone else who does? If you actually count the number of pro-ban people and compare it to the number of anti-ban people, you'll see you're pretty heavily outnumbered.

I don't know how often you go on #genvuu, but really the only thing that goes on there is people bitching about how retarded it is to keep hail around, how unenjoyable laddering has become because of hail, and how they just got scrubbed out of pretty secure wins because of a Snow Cloak miss / freeze.

The statement that more people want Hail to stay than those who want it to go is really completely baseless.

I never said what you are implying in the first paragraph.I just said that in this megathread i have seen more people wanting to ban Snow Cloak or Snow Cloak + Snow Warning than Snow Warning.Just go through the last pages and you will see it!
Also i can't connect in IRC so i cannot know what people's opinions are there.I am talking only about what i know! Isn't it logical?

Finally i can't really understand where all this freezing hax happens.I am playing UU also,and as i said before in one of my posts,the Blizzspammers are many times countered by things immune to Freeze or that have a way to thaw out.
Bulky waters all carry Scald and many Fire types Carry Flare Blitz.Also Ice types that can also take Blizzards are immune to Freezing.
If we are starting to complain about Blizzard freezing our mons,then we can start complaining about Scald which has a much more realistic chance of happening and screws your opponent quite a bit.
I mean seriously,i have lost more games due to the burnhax of Scald,than from the Freeze hax of Blizzard. I am not saying that Blizzspam is to be taken lightly or that Scald is broken but that the freezehax of Blizzard as a reason for banning Blizzspam is really stupid,especially when half or more of the pokes that are going to take those Blizzards are immune to it...

You do make a fair point there!
Quick question, does Blizzard always hit SC pokemon, or is it still 80% accuracy?

It always hits inside Hail!

 

[Snunch]

Good news everyone: Abomasnow and Snover are now banned from UU! Apparently there's some difficulty coding ability bans so Aldaron went ahead and did the next best thing. The senate will release our reasoning soon.

 

[kokoloko]

I never said what you are implying in the first paragraph.I just said that in this megathread i have seen more people wanting to ban Snow Cloak or Snow Cloak + Snow Warning than Snow Warning.Just go through the last pages and you will see it!
Also i can't connect in IRC so i cannot know what people's opinions are there.I am talking only about what i know! Isn't it logical?

Well then you should perhaps consider that what you know isn't all that is happening. Not everyone has the time to type up lengthy responses to "plz keep hail" in this thread, so they express their opinions on IRC instead.

Finally i can't really understand where all this freezing hax happens.I am playing UU also,and as i said before in one of my posts,the Blizzspammers are many times countered by things immune to Freeze or that have a way to thaw out.
Bulky waters all carry Scald and many Fire types Carry Flare Blitz.Also Ice types that can also take Blizzards are immune to Freezing.

Steel-types and Snorlax are two primary candidates to take Blizzards and getting frozen without any hope of thawing right out. That isn't even to mention the fact that if you're being forced to select Scald every time you're frozen, its going to fuck you over sooner or later anyway, as it is interrupting your plans. Also, lol @ using Ice types... Hail beating Hail, what a healthy metagame!

If we are starting to complain about Blizzard freezing our mons,then we can start complaining about Scald which has a much more realistic chance of happening and screws your opponent quite a bit.
I mean seriously,i have lost more games due to the burnhax of Scald,than from the Freeze hax of Blizzard. I am not saying that Blizzspam is to be taken lightly or that Scald is broken but that the freezehax of Blizzard as a reason for banning Blizzspam is really stupid,especially when half or more of the pokes that are going to take those Blizzards are immune to it...

I actually think Scald should be banned, but I'm probably the only one, and that's off-topic anyway. As for the bolded part... what???

EDIT: Don't bother replying to this, lol. I just read Snunch's post, so yeah.

 

[alexwolf]

Well then you should perhaps consider that what you know isn't all that is happening. Not everyone has the time to type up lengthy responses to "plz keep hail" in this thread, so they express their opinions on IRC instead.

I clearly said that i am talking only about what i know!
Did i talk anywhere in my posts for IRC?
Did i say that only what i know is what is happening?
Try to be more reasoble next time pls and read more carefully.

Steel-types and Snorlax are two primary candidates to take Blizzards and getting frozen without any hope of thawing right out. That isn't even to mention the fact that if you're being forced to select Scald every time you're frozen, its going to fuck you over sooner or later anyway, as it is interrupting your plans. Also, lol @ using Ice types... Hail beating Hail, what a healthy metagame!

That's why i said most. Because obviously some counters CAN get frozen! Also any ice type means Hail teams right? So i can't use Froslass outside of Hail right? Hail does not equal to Ice types for god's sake...

I actually think Scald should be banned, but I'm probably the only one, and that's off-topic anyway. As for the bolded part... what???

I meant that Ice types cannot get frozen!

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Yeah the bans were pushed through so people have time to practice for spl. I'll post all the paragraphs when I get them, as a few of the senators don't have that much time because of the holiday season.

 

[Heysup]

Yeah I didn't either until I actually saw it happening @_@

Also would it be possible if you guys can include in your paragraphs why you are banning Snow Warning (if you're banning Snow Warning, anyway) instead of Abomasnow / Snow Cloak etc?

We could, but it would be pointless. It's not really up to us whether we ban Snow Warning or Snow Cloak or Abomasnow (frankly, Abomasnow is really a dead topic, i wish people would stop bringing it up), what matters is if the suspect we are given as a senate is broken or not.

I mean, why do you need us to explain it to you here and in the paragraphs? In my opinion, the paragraphs should completely leave it out so not to bias any votes to the side of "wrong suspect, no ban even though it's broken".

Well, i prefer focusing on the main problem,and then if it doesn't get banned we can move on to the next one.It's not like if Snow Cloak doesn't get banned(either by simple ban or combo ban),that we can't make anymore suspects...
Also even if i said that Hail is dominant for many reasons,the reason that pushes Hail over the fence and makes it broken is Snow Cloak.So it is clear that my problem is Snow Cloak inside Hail and not Hail. Can't you see why i cannot stand Snow Warning being the primary suspect?
Because for me,it is not the source of the problem.I don't want Hail banned because it is an entire playstyle of which we have no concrete evidence of being broken.

I'm assuming you've read this entire thread and you know for a fact that what you're saying is completely false (and yet, here we are). There is ample evidence that hail as a playstyle is broken.

If we first decided to make a suspect Snow Cloak / Snow Cloak + Snow Warning and it didn't get banned it will be cool for me,since it would at least have gotten a chance to be banned.
But now we disregard the main problem,and we are heading to a solution with huge collateral damage.

I agree that Snow Cloak is the main factor, but we can't just ban Snow Cloak because it won't get through the senate / Jabba, it will be an endless circle of "this is the wrong suspect" votes. I don't understand why you would honestly prefer nothing being banned rather than just Snow Cloak. The collateral damage is minimal when considering that hail as a playstyle is broken, and while narrowing it down would be beneficial it is not necessary for a valid ban.

I know that not everyone posts here but it is one of the few ways you senate members can learn people's opinion.And if i remember right isn't the senate ought to bring suspects after discussing them in public. So if the majority of the people in the megathread,and in the forums in general,don't want Snow Warning banned and prefer Snow Cloak banned,i cannot understand why you should ignore them... Don't we chose the suspects,with your help,and you chose what gets banned?

Hail in general was being complained about when it was chosen as the suspect a very long time ago, not sure if you were reading at that point. Somehow we arrived on Abomasnow as a suspect (I literally have no idea how that happened) and there was an outcry from the megathread, and we changed it. The community helps the senate choose the suspect and the senate votes. This ignorant banter about the senate ignoring the megathread needs to stop because it's baseless and lowers the entire threads credibility.

 

[Mishra]

Very dissatisfied and disappointed with the decision. And lols and Snover getting banned in UU.

I also second Banedon. I would like the council, if possible, to please explain why snowcloak + snow warning was not even considered.

 

[-Manu-]

I played Hailspam on the ladder picked 5. It's a good news my goal was to get banned the hail and I'm happy of this now I have to build other great team !

 

[Byrne]

Very dissatisfied and disappointed with the decision. And lols and Snover getting banned in UU.

I also second Banedon. I would like the council, if possible, to please explain why snowcloak + snow warning was not even considered.

Do you even play UU?

 

[ToF]

Good fucking riddance. I already got the paragraphs from a few senate members, and after my exams are over tomorrow I should be able to write up something quickly that hopefully doesn't overlap with what other people said.

PS: To everyone that thinks just Snow Cloak is broken, feel free to challenge SJCrew and see if you can overcome his Hail team. I guarantee you'll lose to other bullshit not called Snow Cloak.

 

[-Manu-]

I agree the post of ToF. Hailspam is broken because is not just based on the powerful of the attack Blizzard is based on the haxx of snow cloak and blizzard freeze.

 

[Moo]

Good fucking riddance. I already got the paragraphs from a few senate members, and after my exams are over tomorrow I should be able to write up something quickly that hopefully doesn't overlap with what other people said.

PS: To everyone that things just Snow Cloak is broken, feel free to challenge SJCrew and see if you can overcome his Hail team. I guarantee you'll lose to other bullshit not called Snow Cloak.

Seconding this! And SJCrew is ass at UU so when he beats you, you know it's broken :p

 

[SJCrew]

Says the guy who lost to Blaranub in the first round of Olympus. ;)

 

[yaysnivy34]

I currently am using Hail and am NOT using Froslass. I am using Mamoswine, but I feel that it with Snow Cloak is not broken. In fact, only three Pokemon on my team abuse it at all. I run a FWG core with Roserade, Arcanine, and CroCune along with my abusers and it is climbing up the ladder. Hail does not need Froslass or even Snow Cloak to be effective. And to those of you who are complaining about BlizzSpam, I cannot pull of a BlizzSpam sweep at all anymore with all the Bulky Waters and Fire types, and Steel types running around. Hail is not the problem; it's Froslass.

 

[Heysup]

I currently am using Hail and am NOT using Froslass. I am using Mamoswine, but I feel that it with Snow Cloak is not broken. In fact, only three Pokemon on my team abuse it at all. I run a FWG core with Roserade, Arcanine, and CroCune along with my abusers and it is climbing up the ladder. Hail does not need Froslass or even Snow Cloak to be effective. And to those of you who are complaining about BlizzSpam, I cannot pull of a BlizzSpam sweep at all anymore with all the Bulky Waters and Fire types, and Steel types running around. Hail is not the problem; it's Froslass.

Not to be rude but if you can't win with a decidedly broken strategy, that doesn't mean it isn't broken. It means something else entirely, and it has nothing to do with the effectiveness of BlizzSpam.

Next up, Prankster + Rain Dance go go go.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I agree with yaysnivy to an extent: Snow Cloak really isn't broken and I would not support a ban of it. However, I chose to ban Snow Warning because of BlizzSpam. Honestly, if you can get up two layers of hazards (which is NOT difficult) you will almost always sweep with Blizzard. Waters fall to Mamoswine, Froslass (if running Toxic), and Abomasnow, Steels fall to Mamoswine and sometimes Abomasnow, and Fires fall to Mamoswine but usually require a fire resist like Flygon, Slowbro, or CHandelure. With the Stealth Rock weakness most Fire types can switch only once into Blizzard the whole match.

Blizzard freezes are ten times what Snow Cloak hax wishes to be, just saying.

Honestly I wanted a ban on Froslass because it would nerf Hail pretty badly. Without easy Spikes, Hail becomes considerably weaker. Froslass is also the premier spinblocker on a Hail team so the Spikes aren't going anywhere.

 

[fairytale]

Fucking thank you.

I, too, would have preferred a ban on froslass, but all I really care about is that I'm not going to be facing down froslass in hail anymore...

 

[jamashawalker]

I would like to stray off the topic of the repetitave talk about the "banned" hail..

Next up, Prankster + Rain Dance go go go.

I'm curious how successful rain will be this round? I see it probably dominating since one of its biggest counters TOXICROAK IS FUCKING OU!! and Abomasnow and snover being banned so no switch ins to change the weather. Also i see a rise in the completely forgetten Whimiscott to be used with Rain teams and counter them

EDIT: forgot we have empoleon in UU and whimiscott doesnt learn rain dance :/

 

[Snunch]

rain dance is 100% dependent on team matchup. It might be a successful strategy low on the ladder, but skill will always get you higher than praying your opponent can't take water attacks. Rain Dance will never be successful at the top of the ladder because the top players will adapt, and Rain Dance will never be successful in tournaments because top players will know that it is not a reliable strategy. Unless you're looking to kill an hour with literally the most mindless way to play this game, I don't see a reason to use Rain Dance teams.

 

[FlareBlitz]

rain dance is 100% dependent on team matchup. It might be a successful strategy low on the ladder, but skill will always get you higher than praying your opponent can't take water attacks. Rain Dance will never be successful at the top of the ladder because the top players will adapt, and Rain Dance will never be successful in tournaments because top players will know that it is not a reliable strategy. Unless you're looking to kill an hour with literally the most mindless way to play this game, I don't see a reason to use Rain Dance teams.

I got past 1337 after an hour with rain. The only problem is that I find myself zoning out whenever I play it, which becomes a problem if I play someone good with a good team matchup.

 

[Raikaria]

rain dance is 100% dependent on team matchup. It might be a successful strategy low on the ladder, but skill will always get you higher than praying your opponent can't take water attacks. Rain Dance will never be successful at the top of the ladder because the top players will adapt, and Rain Dance will never be successful in tournaments because top players will know that it is not a reliable strategy. Unless you're looking to kill an hour with literally the most mindless way to play this game, I don't see a reason to use Rain Dance teams.

Except Rain has more than Water attacks.

It has Tornadus and his Hurricanes, as well as Thunder from various threats, such as Raikou. Roserade can run Weather Ball, and lose his Fire weakness, not to mention Ludicolo.

Water-spam isn't a viable strategy, but it dosen't mean Rain isn't, especially if the team isn't totally reliant on rain, but uses it as a supplement. Nothing's stopping a team that utilises Rain Dance from running something that dosen't benifit from the rain to help cover gaps.

I'm not saying Rain Dance will be gamebreaking. I'm not even saying you're wrong, but I'm saying you're giving it too little credit, calling it a tactic that prays your foe cannot take Water attacks. Rain does more than that.

 

[PK Gaming]

I think Rain is still pretty powerful, especially now that both Sand and Hail are banned. It doesn't really have much depth, and if your weather setter dies or your point Pokemon gets killed, its over.

Though this is speaking from a theory based point of view.