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np: UU Stage 4 - I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas

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Roserade is more overwhelming than Deoxys D or Froslass. Roserade also has Toxic Spikes and has Sleep Powder when using a set without Spikes. Roserade also utilizes a LO set with Leaf Storm/Sludge Bomb which 2hkoes everything bar Steel types and Snorlax (and maybe Deoxys D/Cress which get Sleep Powdered anyway). Right now, the metagame is based around Spikes and Spin blocking. Roserade is the no.1 culprit for Spikes.

Also, I don't see a problem with suspecting all three. Roserade should go BL by itself and then Deoxys-D and Froslass should be suspected afterwards.
 
JabbaTheGriffin said:
So we ban every ghost? That also ignores the point that it's not the spinblockers that are broken, it's the spinners that suck.
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Just like you could ban only the good Spikers, you could simply just ban the exceptionally tough spinblockers (ie Sableye / Spiritomb). Not all ghosts are great spinblockers. If the available Rapid Spinners cannot get the job done, make their lives easier for them by removing the Ghost most effective at spin-blocking. I find it hard to believe that Pokemon like Foresight Hitmontop or Swords Dance Lum Armaldo / Sandslash cannot break through Ghost-types, though.

This just seems the least volatile solution, with the least side effect on the UU meta (and the lower tiers).
 
Pocket said:
Just like you could ban only the good Spikers, you could simply just ban the exceptionally tough spinblockers (ie Sableye). Not all ghosts are great spinblockers.
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If you went that route you'd end up banning probably at least Sableye, Mismagius, and Chandelure with things like Spiritomb and Dusknoir toeing the line.

I mean if the senate were to agree that spikes were a big enough problem that needed to be dealt with, I guess banning the big 3 spikers or the best spinblockers would probably go a long way to alleviate the problem. But I feel something like that wouldn't be a permanent solution, and that the support players would just find replacements.
 
Banning Ghosts for being able to block Rapid Spin is absurd. The tier will still centralize around Spikes and its users and the Rapid Spinners will almost always be outlasted by the Spikers themselves. Free damage is the problem, not blocking ways to remove it. Even if you banned every Ghost UU and below, good luck beating the big three before Blastoise dies and all of that free damage takes effect on your team.
 
Arguably, Mismagius and Chandelure are not bulky enough to reliably spin-block. Either way, I'd rather lose 3~4 Ghost-types than losing Spikes altogether, which would affect the metagame in a much more significant way. You're trying to ban one of the most fundamental tactics of Pokemon. Recall the ridiculous Baton Pass ban that led to the end of Suspect Testing; yes, banning Spikes falls into this category.

SJCrew, passive damage has been part of Pokemon since GSC. "Free damage" is not an argument to ban anything. Pokemon matches has always been about damage control, being able to do more damage than the opponent. Be killed before getting killed. Set-up Spikes before the opponent set-up Spikes.
 
Considering we lost Donphan, spinning just got harder. If I really need to keep those hazards badly, I can just use 2 ghosts and prevent Hitmontop's Foresight bs. Even if Hitmontop gets to spin it gets burned anyway by will-o-wisp and essentially becomes fodder. Outside of that we have... Blastoise and Cryogonal who don't exactly care much about burns. Cryogonal is honestly meh. Blastoise is decent and has foresight, but he's slow and i can't run any four of spin/fs/toxic/roar/scald/protect/ice beam without being screwed in some way, i mean scald is too good to pass up imo, spin is great, you need foresight, and bam here comes your 4ms.

spikes is gay considering that very few things are actually immune outside of air balloon (zapdos, flygon, bronzong, azelf, mismagius, togekiss, rotoms, and the rest are basically RU), combine it with SR, and... >.> heck i wouldn't be surprised if bronzong is used on every team because it resists SR and is immune to spikes

edit because i somehow get ninja'd: how the hell is losing 5 ghosts better than spikes
 
Pocket said:
Arguably, Mismagius and Chandelure are not bulky enough to reliably spin-block.
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Chandelure, Sableye, and Mismagius can, depending on set, switch into every commonly used spinner set and either cripple them to the point where they cannot spin or outright kill them.
Donphan could actually threaten these ghosts offensively without compromising its utility, but you would need to run silly shit like offensive Techspin top or specs blastoise in order to beat ghosts, which just opens you up to threats that your spinners should normally be able to handle with more standard sets.

I'm already seeing a ton of adaptation to this hazard-heavy metagame in the form of scarfed sleep powder users, xatu, and more. These are inefficient sets and mediocre pokemon that are causing the metagame to become stagnant and extremely focused around finding ways to dick specific pokemon as opposed to covering general threats. I'm of half a mind to just start running rain dance again because all these teams are being built with no eye towards synergy, just "how can these abuse hazards the best / prevent my opponent from abusing hazards".
 
Pocket said:
Arguably, Mismagius and Chandelure are not bulky enough to reliably spin-block. Either way, I'd rather lose 3~4 Ghost-types than losing Spikes altogether, which would affect the metagame in a much more significant way. You're trying to ban one of the most fundamental tactics of Pokemon. Recall the ridiculous Baton Pass ban that led to the end of Suspect Testing; yes, banning Spikes falls into this category.

SJCrew, passive damage has been part of Pokemon since GSC. "Free damage" is not an argument to ban anything. Pokemon matches has always been about damage control, being able to do more damage than the opponent. Be killed before getting killed. Set-up Spikes before the opponent set-up Spikes.
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surprisingly both are able to successfully block rapid spin. Chandelure is able to stop hitmontop but not blastoise, while bulky mismagus is able to stop both. And we wont really be losing a couple of ghosts. We would lose nearly all ghosts. If Mismagius,chandelure,sabeleye,dusclops,and frosslass were banned people would immediately just used some of the RU/NU ghosts which are not a huge step down just the former ones are better.

I agree with the last line about set-up spikes before the opponent set-up spikes, but thats actually the biggest problem right now.
 
imo the breaking point is that most ghosts have access to will-o-wisp... it basically means that even if they are forced to let hitmontop spin, they get a 75% chance to cripple him for the rest of the game. so basically, 75% of the time the spinner-user is playing at 6-5 (besides who the hell uses hitmontop outside of spinning)

i completely disagree with banning ghosts instead of spikes, banning 5 viable Pokemon just to keep 1 move seems way too unnecessary imo and seems to imply that ppl actually WANT spikes in the metagame. its not the same as banning bp imo since the only really arguably broken aspect of bp is smashpass, normal bp is not broken at all. here, the subject is, ban the blockers, ban the spikers, or ban the move. roserade, deoxys and froslass don't need spikes to function, and the ghosts are all viable and non-broken pokemon outside of spinblocking. on that same vein, spikes has an immunity in flying types, but when you ACTUALLY combine it with SR, the trouble comes in that outside of a grand total of 6 pokemon (INCLUDING NFEs!) nothing resists SR + Spikes together. the 3 fully evolved mons are flygon, bronzong and claydol, and while all 3 are decent in their own right, i don't see how its going to work, especially when they are the only ones that resist sr + spikes. claydol CAN spin, but it can't do diddly squat to ghosts other than toxic.
 
While I think it's reasonable to evaluate the big three spikers in this metagame, flat out banning the move at this point is absurd. We know that Deoxys-D operates and a much higher level than Scolipede does, I have a very difficult time believing that spikes would be as powerful as they are now if Accelgor sets them up. I have never seen one used at all successfully and not a single person on IRC was able to tell me that they have.

While we did lose a very good spinner recently, I don't think the spinners are underpowered in this tier. Blastoise and Hitmontop can both pretty much guarantee hazards come off the field unless you get significantly outplayed, and RU/NU pokemon like Kabutops, Cryogonal, and Claydol can also function better than they're given credit for.

Let's not do anything drastic. If there is a problem, it has always been with Roserade / Froslass / Deoxys-D. It would not be unprecedented at all to ban those three if spikes are too big of a problem. Let's talk about those three first, and if spikes are still a problem (and I really doubt they would be), then we can talk about doing more.
 
Rapid Spinning isn't as hard as people are making it out to be. The main logic behind this is that the ghosts in this tier are just not that great. Sableye has its uses, but its not beating Blastoise / Hitmontop anytime soon. Golurk's typing is pretty weak when considering Rapid Spinners. Mismagius is the most offensively inclined Ghost-type but it's kind of frail and needs to sacrifice a lot to simply be bulky enough to beat Rapid spinners. Froslass is only good because it lays out Spikes, but as a Spin Blocker it's sub par (doing both is really valuable, though).

I'm pretty sure most people would agree that Roserade is the best Spiker, but I'm not sure.
 
Heysup said:
The main logic behind this is that the ghosts in this tier are just not that great.
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Spikers>Ghosts>Rapid Spinners

We have Sableye who is the best spin blocker as it always cripples Spinners who have Foresight. It also isn't Pursuit weak unlike other common spinners. Chandelure beats most spinners except for Blastoise, who takes 40% from an unboosted Shadow Ball. Froslass is very good for offensive momentum teams because you cant spin early game and momentum teams keep up the momentum with hazards. Mismagius is also a decent Spin blocker but is probably inferior to the above.
 
As we're on the subject of spinners, I think standard rotom needs a bit of love. Yes, it's RU and it has poor stats but it's very uncommonly used but that's what makes it less predictable than other spin-blockers. It also has two spin killing moves that any other spin-blocker would kill for in trick and a scout move (volt switch) so it can utilize a scarf well plus his job is significantly easier now with donphan gone. BUT it is pretty fragile so you have to play cleverly with him but I think he is definitely under-rated.
 
Snunch said:
While I think it's reasonable to evaluate the big three spikers in this metagame, flat out banning the move at this point is absurd. We know that Deoxys-D operates and a much higher level than Scolipede does, I have a very difficult time believing that spikes would be as powerful as they are now if Accelgor sets them up. I have never seen one used at all successfully and not a single person on IRC was able to tell me that they have.

While we did lose a very good spinner recently, I don't think the spinners are underpowered in this tier. Blastoise and Hitmontop can both pretty much guarantee hazards come off the field unless you get significantly outplayed, and RU/NU pokemon like Kabutops, Cryogonal, and Claydol can also function better than they're given credit for.

Let's not do anything drastic. If there is a problem, it has always been with Roserade / Froslass / Deoxys-D. It would not be unprecedented at all to ban those three if spikes are too big of a problem. Let's talk about those three first, and if spikes are still a problem (and I really doubt they would be), then we can talk about doing more.
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Yes, the big three spikers are by far the best spikers in the tier because they both lay hazards and aren't completely useless. You're right that drastic measures probably shouldn't be taken when we don't know if it's those 3 that are the cause of the problem, or spikes themselves. And as the UU leader I'm not advocating the Senate ban spikes without first trying to find a way to fix the problem with a less drastic solution.

But as a UU player, my personal opinion is: man fuck spikes and everything that lays them. I see the big three more as a symptom of the problem rather than the actual problem. Acelgor and Scolipede may not be as good of mons as Roserade, Froslass, or D-D, but I don't see how they wouldn't consistently lay spikes and cause the same problems we have now. Maybe spikes wouldn't completely permeate the metagame like they do now, but at the higher levels I think it'd still be a problem.

As for the spinners, sure Blastoise and Hitmontop can almost guarantee spins, but you're sacrificing half a moveset (foresight and spin) on an already subpar mon (both mons are easily completely outclassed, but still necessary team pieces simply because of spikes). An on top of that your spinner may sacrifice getting itself burned just to spin, making it pretty useless for the rest of the match.
 
I don't think Roserade and Froslass are even in the same league as Deoxys-D. They both have limited usage other than setting Spikes down and both are incredibly frail. Even the pokemon Rose/Lass are designed to counter have easy ways of OHKOing or 2HKOing them. Water-types can hit a well-timed Ice Beam for a solid 2HKO, and Fighters can use Stone Edge/Payback/Bullet Punch/Sucker Punch. Deoxys-D on the other hand can take super effective hits, Recover them off, or TWave them, etc. Roserade and Froslass may be two of the best Spikers in the tier, but you can't just slap them on a team and guarantee layers like you can with D-D. Especially with things like Darmanitan Chandelure and Heracross running wild in the tier, Spiking gives them free switchins and even mons that resist their STABs take a beating real quickly.

The Spikes "problem" is more likely because of Donphan leaving than any of the Spikers being overpowered. But if there is any overpowering Spiker it's definitely Deoxys-D and not Roserade or Froslass.
 
yea the #1 pokemon in the tier is not in the same league as deoxys and has limited usage. lo roserade is still one of the, if not the most threatening mons in the tier. if anything has limited usage other than setting spikes it's definitely deoxys-d. also, i fail to see how deoxys-d deters chandelure and heracross switch-ins anymore than roserade does.

donphan leaving didn't help, but i definitely think it has more to do with the op of the spikers and blockers being better than the remaining spinners.
 
While froslass is absolutely a good spiker in her own right, I don't consider her to even be in the same league as Roserade and Deo. (lol I just realized I wrote almost the same thing as jrrrrrrr, funny because I didn't even read his post until after) Being the spinblocking spiker is a nice niche, but it lacks the longevity of Deoxys and Roserade. Also, you always know its going to spike. To be honest, I don't even think Roserade is that problematic as a spiker, but her unpredicability makes her extremely hard to play against. Sleep Powder and LO Sludge Bomb/Leaf Storm will make a lot of counters to the spike set eat shit, and thats really where a big part of her strength comes from. I don't think she's broken though, but very very good.

I personally think the only mon even worthy of suspect is Deoxys-D, though I don't know that I'd even vote to ban that if I had a say. Maybe I'm just grateful that the meta isn't utter shit like it was with hail around, but I'm fine with the way things are.
 
fatty said:
yea the #1 pokemon in the tier is not in the same league as deoxys and has limited usage. lo roserade is still one of the, if not the most threatening mons in the tier. if anything has limited usage other than setting spikes it's definitely deoxys-d. also, i fail to see how deoxys-d deters chandelure and heracross switch-ins anymore than roserade does.
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First, you'll notice that Roserade is only 12th most used on the 1337 stats. It was only popular because Donphan was the most common Rapid Spinner and Chansey gave it free layers of Spikes/TSpikes. Those two benefits are gone now, and it has to deal with fire-types that can break through water-types on their own now (Darm and Chandy), oh and Alakazam. I didn't say Roserade was bad, I'm pointing out that it is getting less useful with every tier shift, and that comparing it to Deoxys-D as a Spiker is a stretch. Roserade is a fast Grass special attacker that happens to learn Spikes. Making it a defensive Spiker greatly reduces its benefit to a team in the newest UU metagame
 
Deoxys-D is absolutely stopped by Xatu.

Although you ban the three best Spikers (Roserade, Deoxys, Froslass), you still can use Scolipede / Accelgor / Ferroseed, plus a few bad rapid spinners against many good spin blockers. I think that it don't solve the problem.
 
Hmmmm, I think we should take a look at the big three first and if it is still a problem afterwords, we can unbanned them and ban spikes. Or whatever else we wanted to try to fix the problem.
 
Roserade is better than the others for many reasons. Firstly, it can force so many things out (Rhyperior, Claydol, etc) and straight up counter water-types and almost every defensive Pokemon. Ice Beams tickle Roserade (236 SpA Ice Beams do (32.72% - 38.89%) to Spikes Roserade - whoever said it 2HKOes is wrong) so even prediction can't help you.

The biggest reason, though, is that Roserade has the threat of being the Life Orb sweeper as well. If you try and switch your usual Pokemon into Roserade, at best it'll get slept, but it will likely just get OHKOed by a Life Orb boosted 383 SpA STAB Leaf Storm or Sludge Bomb.

I don't think banning Spikes is a reasonable option either. I mean they were just as bad or worse last gen and we couldn't even come close to banning them.
 
Heysup said:
I don't think banning Spikes is a reasonable option either. I mean they were just as bad or worse last gen and we couldn't even come close to banning them.
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I dunno man. Gen 4 UU did pretty much everything it could have to alleviate the Spikes problem. Roserade went OU, but I'm pretty sure it was close to being banned anyway (I'd have given it 1 more round max). Froslass was banned because it got easy spikes. Raikou was the best spikes sweeper and that was banned. Moltres was almost banned because of how good it was with Spikes support. Smeargle went OU. Omastar and Qwilfish were really the only Spikers left in the tier. I'd say that comes pretty close to banning Spikes
 
Gen 4 UU also had the same spinners, aside from Donphan, who is now absent, and the new Cryogonal. Combine the now-previously-unbanned spikers with Sableye and the SAME EXACT SPINNERS from a generation ago and you're left with a massive imbalance between application vs. removal of spikes.
 
I can't believe that we're debating on banning Spikes. It's almost as absurd as debating on whether we should ban Outrage.

Firstly, Spikes aren't that bad. If you let your opponent get three layers of Spikes, you just suck. I really don't get what the hype is about them. If you apply enough pressure, your opponent wouldn't dare to set them up because in doing so they'd just let you dictate the match and hand you a sweep. I have never bothered with Spikes or Rapid Spin in this tier, and my teams have nowhere near sucked. Have you all played Ubers? Do you know how much harder and more annoying Spikes is to try and get rid of in there? You have the bulkiest and most unkillable spinblockers and on top of that, all of them can phaze you, meaning those Spikes would fuck you up even harder. UU has no excuse for complaining about Spikes.

Secondly, if your team is so susceptible to Spikes, have you all considered adapting to that? You know, use Flying-types and Levitators? It's kind of what happened after Drown All dominated Ubers for a good half a year. I was joking around last metagame with Dugtrio + 5 Flying-types spamming Brave Bird, and it was mildly successful. Yeah, go ahead and set up 3 layers of Spikes. Think I care? Not only that, you have other tools at your disposal. You have Prankster Taunt, which can be used by Whimsicott and Sableye. You can also use Xatu to bounce back Spikes. What can bulky Roserade to Xatu? Absolutely nothing. Froslass is probably the only Spiker who can kill Xatu, and Froslass has always been broken anyway. You still have pretty good Rapid Spinners in this tier. What was so good about Donphan? Name one spin-blocker that he actually beat. Blastoise and Hitmontop, on the other hand, could not be prevented from spinning unless 1) severely misplayed, 2) your opponent runs double-Ghost (meaning that they are stacking on weaknesses) or 3) you missed Froslass due to Snow Cloak miss (which has been fixed).

So yeah, 1) I don't why you're all complaining about Spikes, and 2) if you hate them so much, adapt to them!
 
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