General Metagame Discussion

[Princess Bubblegum]

At -1, Smack Down does 30.45 - 36.04% and EQ does 38.07 - 44.92%. After SR and SS damage this is a 2hko almost always (38.07 + 30.45 + 25 + 6,25 = 99.77%).

What damage calculator are you using? Im using this http://masara.byethost15.com/SilverlightDmgCalcTestPage.html and getting 22.9%-26.97% for smack down and earthquake for 33.85%-39.95% for earthquake after that. And someone verify here which one is correct?

And by the way, who the hell uses a rest talk Gyarados without rapid spin support? I know its always nice to factor in stealth rock, but for a pokemon that is so often paired with a spinner, I think its unfair to simply case it off as a counter in theory if it doesn't have it.

 

[DDRMaster]

At -1, Smack Down does 30.45 - 36.04% and EQ does 38.07 - 44.92%. After SR and SS damage this is a 2hko almost always (38.07 + 30.45 + 25 + 6,25 = 99.77%).

Unless it gets hit by Trick, RestTalk Gyarados will always have Leftovers, which will essentially negate the Sandstorm damage. Gyarados will still take 93.52 - 105.96% from Smack Down+EQ+SR and is cleanly OHKO'd by a +1 LO Stone Edge in sand so it's a shaky counter at best.

Edit:
252 -1 Atk Landorus Smack Down vs 248 HP/252 Def Impish Gyarados: 19.85% - 23.41%
252 -1 Atk Landorus Earthquake vs 248 HP/252 Def Impish Gyarados: 29.26% - 34.61%

I'm using the same damage calculator Scarfwynaut used, but came up with different results. The above calcs were done with Jolly and Leftovers, but I can't replicate the other damages even using different combinations of Adamant and Life Orb.

 

[alexwolf]

We all know that Landorus isn't broken and that was kind of a waste of a page in this thread so I didn't bother posting then but something was posted and its bothering me so here I am.


First of all, when looking at checks/counters, it's sort of unreasonable to assume they switch into hazards more than once. Hazards are always good to account for, but there's a limit. After 6 switch-ins to Spikes, Specially Defensive Jirachi no longer counters Specs Tornadus. That's a little absurd, because Jirachi could just Wish off the Spikes damage, but you get my point. When we start using multiple switch-ins to hazards, counters no longer even exist.

Okay, but onto my main point. Virizion still counters that set. The ability to U-Turn away and weaken it does not make any less of a counter. By that logic, Bulky DD Dos under Rain does not counter Scizor, because Scizor can keep U-Turning away until Gyarados is at extremely low health. If the best that a Pokemon can do is run away and do mediocre damage in the process, then it's countered. Virizion CAN switch in safely, because it will either kill Landorus or make it get the fuck out of there (basically the definition of a counter, switching in and doing that). So yeah, Landorus is countered.

Your logic is incorrect, because Landorus needs only 1 U-turn to weaken Virizion to the point that he won't be able to come in again.Gyarados is a counter to Scizor because it can take multiple U-turns without giving a shit. Do you think that if Gyarados took 39.19 - 46.29% from Scizor's U-turn, like Virizion takes from Landorus's U-turn, people would use him as a Scizor counter? No sane player would slap Virizion in his team and say ''now i am safe from Landorus''. It is a good check, but not a counter, in practice at least. Now if you want to go by the straight definition of : ''a counter to poke a, is a poke b capable of switching in any of poke's a moves and force it out'' , then Virizion is a counter. But this means nothing in real play so better acount him as a check when you are building a team.

And what is the point of nitpicking stuff like ''after 2 SR switch-ins''? I was only trying to show how Landorus can be useful even when not at full life, against the stronger priority users in OU. And acounting the nature of CB Scizor, 2 SR rounds are not hard to get at all. And anyway there is no point in discussing this, because Scizor cannot switch-in anyway.

What damage calculator are you using? Im using this http://masara.byethost15.com/SilverlightDmgCalcTestPage.html and getting 22.9%-26.97% for smack down and earthquake for 33.85%-39.95% for earthquake after that. And someone verify here which one is correct?

And by the way, who the hell uses a rest talk Gyarados without rapid spin support? I know its always nice to factor in stealth rock, but for a pokemon that is so often paired with a spinner, I think its unfair to simply case it off as a counter in theory if it doesn't have it.

I used this calculator: http://honko.freehosting.com/manly_calc.html. Your mistake is that you didn't account for Sand Force.

Of 'course Gyarados in practice can counter Landorus, but not for sure. that was my point. Without SR it can, with it it can't. And because when we talk theoretically about counters, we want them to always counter the poke we want, theoretically Gyara is not a counter. And anyway it sounds nice to say for a poke that it has no counters, so don't spoil my dream. xd

@DDR Master

Lefties heals after SS damage are applied, so Landorus has to do 93,75% damage to Gyarados, and then he will die from SS.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Your mistake is that you didn't account for Sand Force.

Im not debating landorus anymore because I don't give a fuck.

I actually thought sand force and intimidate canceled each other out (lol), it turns out sand force only gives a .3% boost.

That being said I get for earthquake 29.26%-34.61% on the one I posted, and 29.51%-34.86% on Honkos, basically the same.

I find the diferences in damage interesting actually, I wonder what is causing the small difference.

 

[SlimMan]

Your logic is incorrect, because Landorus needs only 1 U-turn to weaken Virizion to the point that he won't be able to come in again.Gyarados is a counter to Scizor because it can take multiple U-turns without giving a shit. Do you think that if Gyarados took 39.19 - 46.29% from Scizor's U-turn, like Virizion takes from Landorus's U-turn, people would use him as a Scizor counter? No sane player would slap Virizion in his team and say ''now i am safe from Landorus''. It is a good check, but not a counter, in practice at least. Now if you want to go by the straight definition of : ''a counter to poke a, is a poke b capable of switching in any of poke's a moves and force it out'' , then Virizion is a counter. But this means nothing in real play so better acount him as a check when you are building a team.

Yes, to be a counter, a Pokemon does not have to be able to switch in multiple times. Hippowdon is almost universally agreed upon as a counter to SD Lucario, but he cannot switch in multiple times. Lucario uses Close Combat on the switch, and then Hippo is in range to where Lucario can SD and KO it next time. Now are you going to tell me that Hippowdon doesn't counter SD Luke? It can't switch in multiple times, but it is still a counter. If what I said "means nothing in real play", then the concept of a counter also "means nothing in real play".

Of course having Virizion on your team doesn't make you Landorus-proof. But having a Gastrodon on your team doesn't make you Starmie-proof either. Gastrodon can get Toxic'ed, or severely weakened by a mispredict, or whatever. Counter doesn't mean "Now I am safe from this Pokemon forever", it means you have a safe switch-in to that Pokemon who can do something back to it. Which Virizion does to Landorus.

And what is the point of nitpicking stuff like ''after 2 SR switch-ins''? I was only trying to show how Landorus can be useful even when not at full life, against the stronger priority users in OU. And acounting the nature of CB Scizor, 2 SR rounds are not hard to get at all. And anyway there is no point in discussing this, because Scizor cannot switch-in anyway.

My argument on this point was based entirely on principle, that multiple hazard switch-ins can basically eliminate the very idea of counters, and that's true. In the case of CB Scizor, you're right that 2 SR switch-ins isn't at all unreasonable, and is in fact a distinct possibility. However, our arguments are completely independent of one another (the proving or disproving of one does not affect the other) so I agree with you that there's no point in discussing it.

***Technically Scizor can switch in but only if Landorus has taken prior damage and is in BP range. It's not a counter because it can't just switch in whenever it wants, but it's not fair to say that Scizor can never switch in.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

While I agree with your sentiments, I find your Hippwdon example flawed as I often reach that situation. If lucario desides to close combat to take me out next time, I just slack off. I fear little from lucario now with 100% health. If it decides to swords dance, come at me bro because it will fail to 1HKO hippowdon while I just kill it with earthquake.

 

[SlimMan]

While I agree with your sentiments, I find your Hippwdon example flawed as I often reach that situation. If lucario desides to close combat to take me out next time, I just slack off. I fear little from lucario now with 100% health. If it decides to swords dance, come at me bro because it will fail to 1HKO hippowdon while I just kill it with earthquake.

This is absolutely true, but I didn't include it in my example for the reason that recovery would make it inapplicable to Virizion. if you'd like, I can find a better example. Give me 5 minutes.

edit: Okay Scarfwynaut I came up with a better example. 252/184+ Gliscor is widely considered a counter to LO Terrakion, because it can switch in without fear and OHKO back with Earthquake. However, if Terrakion uses Stone Edge on the switch-in, then suddenly Gliscor finds itself unable to tank a +2 Stone Edge later on (after Terrakion gets back in). This doesn't mean that Gliscor is any less of a counter to LO Terrakion, it just means that it can't switch in repeatedly. Just like Virizion.

2nd edit: alexwolf, I don't want us to bicker like we used back in the days of Suspect Testing. I see one of two possibilities. Either you miraculously see my point of view in your next post, or I propose that we agree to disagree on what a counter means. Deal?

 

[The Truth]

Of course having Virizion on your team doesn't make you Landorus-proof. But having a Gastrodon on your team doesn't make you Starmie-proof either. Gastrodon can get Toxic'ed, or severely weakened by a mispredict, or whatever. Counter doesn't mean "Now I am safe from this Pokemon forever", it means you have a safe switch-in to that Pokemon who can do something back to it. Which Virizion does to Landorus.

Considering that standard landorus' U-turn does over 50%(mistyped some numbers in calculator) to virizion minimum, that's not really a safe switch-in... Gastrodon will smash starmie unless it's some weird hp grass or toxic variant, so it's definitely a counter, taking everything the standard starmie can dish out with ease. Virizion can take one u-turn before it's in KO range, meaning it's far from a counter. Landorus can be easily played around, though, with proper prediction, even the smack down variant. It has checks, and one it's Smacked Down your switchin, it's predictable. If you can get a check in safely lando can't do anything.

In 5th gen, with this many pokes, there are going to be things without absolute counters. However, if the metagame is full of checks to these pokemon, they're still not broken.

 

[SlimMan]

Considering that standard landorus' U-turn does over 50% to virizion minimum, that's not really a safe switch-in... Gastrodon will smash starmie unless it's some weird hp grass or toxic variant, so it's definitely a counter, taking everything the standard starmie can dish out with ease. Virizion can take one u-turn before it's in KO range, meaning it's far from a counter. Landorus can be easily played around, though, with proper prediction, even the smack down variant. It has checks, and one it's Smacked Down your switchin, it's predictable. If you can get a check in safely lando can't do anything.

In 5th gen, with this many pokes, there are going to be things without absolute counters. However, if the metagame is full of checks to these pokemon, they're still not broken.

In what universe does Landorus U-Turn do >50% to Virizion?? 0_0
That's not important. Forget it. The Truth, in essence, you said what alexwolf had already stated, which is that a counter must be able to do its job multiple times, switch in repeatedly, and that is what I was attempting to refute in my last post (well, 2 posts ago now I guess). If you'd like to respond to that, feel free, but I don't see a point. It's just quarrels over what defines a counter, and I can promise you right now that there's no way you're going to convince me you're right (closed-mindedness ftw).

Yeah, pretty much everyone agrees that checks are enough nowadays. I don't think anyone really stood with Nelson-X on Landorus being broken........

 

[The Truth]

In what universe does Landorus U-Turn do >50% to Virizion?? 0_0
That's not important. Forget it. The Truth, in essence, you said what alexwolf had already stated, which is that a counter must be able to do its job multiple times, switch in repeatedly, and that is what I was attempting to refute in my last post (well, 2 posts ago now I guess). If you'd like to respond to that, feel free, but I don't see a point. It's just quarrels over what defines a counter, and I can promise you right now that there's no way you're going to convince me you're right (closed-mindedness ftw).

Yeah, pretty much everyone agrees that checks are enough nowadays. I don't think anyone really stood with Nelson-X on Landorus being broken........

Oops, i mistyped a number in the calc @_@

But yeah. I think we all agree the thing isn't broken, and i see no reason for this particular issue to continue. over it.

 

[alexwolf]

Yes, to be a counter, a Pokemon does not have to be able to switch in multiple times. Hippowdon is almost universally agreed upon as a counter to SD Lucario, but he cannot switch in multiple times. Lucario uses Close Combat on the switch, and then Hippo is in range to where Lucario can SD and KO it next time. Now are you going to tell me that Hippowdon doesn't counter SD Luke? It can't switch in multiple times, but it is still a counter. If what I said "means nothing in real play", then the concept of a counter also "means nothing in real play".

Of course having Virizion on your team doesn't make you Landorus-proof. But having a Gastrodon on your team doesn't make you Starmie-proof either. Gastrodon can get Toxic'ed, or severely weakened by a mispredict, or whatever. Counter doesn't mean "Now I am safe from this Pokemon forever", it means you have a safe switch-in to that Pokemon who can do something back to it. Which Virizion does to Landorus.



My argument on this point was based entirely on principle, that multiple hazard switch-ins can basically eliminate the very idea of counters, and that's true. In the case of CB Scizor, you're right that 2 SR switch-ins isn't at all unreasonable, and is in fact a distinct possibility. However, our arguments are completely independent of one another (the proving or disproving of one does not affect the other) so I agree with you that there's no point in discussing it.

***Technically Scizor can switch in but only if Landorus has taken prior damage and is in BP range. It's not a counter because it can't just switch in whenever it wants, but it's not fair to say that Scizor can never switch in.

The difference between Hippo and Virizion is that Hippo can stay healthy throughout the whole match, while Virizion cannot switch-in at all on Landorus after a hit (be it HP Ice, U-turn or EQ).

Also your Starmie example is irrelevant, because i was talking about countering one specific set, while you were talking about one specific poke. The poke that i said has no counters is LO EQ/ Smack Down/ HP Ice/ U-turn Landorus, not Landorus in general, so you have the option to be fully prepared to counter it if you can.

And, as i said in the beginning of my Lando talk, i don't find him broken at all, just saying how awesome he is, and trying to get some people to use the set i talked about more, by showing to them that he has zero counters in OU.

 

[SlimMan]

It seems alex and I will never agree about countering (or not!) his Landorus set. Q.Q

Okay, so new topic. I've noticed something annoying. I've been laddering on a new alt, and I just got past the 1200s into the 1300s. But all throughout the 1200s, I found people who used Thunder on their Jirachis and Starmies, but didn't even have Rain Danc eon their team, let alone Drizzle. I know that it seems all "anti-metagame", and you must feel so cool when you fight a Drizzle team, but it really isn't worth it to have a shitty move against 4/5 teams, is it? I really think it's a sketchy choice, but have any of you made good use of it?

Speaking of trends at certain ranges on the ladder, the 1200s were also CHOCK full of Leftovers Starmies, which made me so sad because my team is a little bit weak it. In the 1100s I never noticed it, and on this alt I haven't been noticing it in the 1300s either. it wasn't like 1337 vs normal stats, where it's "good vs bad players", it was just in that little zone. I really find it interesting what becomes very popular in certain regions of the ladder and how it varies so much based on where you are (and I mean more than just the <1000 players and the >1400 players).

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Yeah certain regions of the ladder definantly play diferent than others, although it usually changes from month to month. I remember for the longest time 1200s had a higher amount of magnezone, than suddenly I never saw any and instead saw Tentacruels on like every team.

 

[/B/utterfree]

Yeah certain regions of the ladder definantly play diferent than others, although it usually changes from month to month. I remember for the longest time 1200s had a higher amount of magnezone, than suddenly I never saw any and instead saw Tentacruels on like every team.

I am one of the proud Magnezone users. Because I hate SkarmBliss. And because it is one of Parasect's best friends in OU.

 

[Razza]

What damage calculator are you using? Im using this http://masara.byethost15.com/SilverlightDmgCalcTestPage.html and getting 22.9%-26.97% for smack down and earthquake for 33.85%-39.95% for earthquake after that. And someone verify here which one is correct?

That calculator doesn't work, calced something and was guaranteed with 48hp evs landorus uturn could never break my jirachis sub, went into battle to test it, broke the sub every time, can anyone link me to a calculator that actually works?

Also @slimman usage stats will rarely be replicated in actual battles, the while usage of a server over 1 month is a lot if stats, for the few hours you are laddering on chances are you will experience nothing like the usage stats, it just depends who is battling on the server at the time, your brain is just spotting something unusual and trying to assume patterns or trends exist where in fact there are none.

 

[Ithilanor]

http://kalashnikov.pokecenter.ru/damage/ is the damage calculator I've been using; it seems to work well.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

That calculator doesn't work, calced something and was guaranteed with 48hp evs landorus uturn could never break my jirachis sub, went into battle to test it, broke the sub every time, can anyone link me to a calculator that actually works?

$10 says you forgot Sand Force. masara's calc is one I've used for a long time, its always been accurate.

I'm not surprised at all at the rise in Tentacruel usage, it checks a ton of attackers, both physical and special thanks to its typing and stats respectively and under rain with protect its damn near impossible to kill. It can even go with a gimmicky SubSDTect pysical sweeper set that catches lots of people off guard.

 

[Arcticblast]

Sand Force only affects Rock, Ground and Steel moves.

 

[Nachos]

Note: I would post this in the "Good teammates and combos" thread but I can't seem to find it and this thread seems to be the only one discussing current metagame trends so...

I'd like to share a 'gimmick' that I've been having quite a bit of fun with on the ladder:

Ninetales (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp
- Sunny Day
- Protect

+

Wobbuffet (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 28 HP / 252 Def / 228 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Encore
- Safeguard

I've been using this ever since someone lower on the ladder wrecked me with it. Sun's biggest problems are generally Terrakion, Landorus and Rotom-W, as well as their corresponding weathers. Judging from the moveset statistics Antar posted, the most common item for these three Pokemon was Choice Scarf, and that's where Wobbuffet factors in. Rotom and Lando will be Volt Switching or U-turning 90% of the time in fear of being revenge killed, so you can move more freely e.g. setting up SR with Heatran as their Landorus U-turns out on it. Worst case scenario is that it Earthquakes, killing your Heatran, leaving you to revenge it. If it turns out to be Expert Belt and it U-turns out on you, then Counter will do a big load of damage to anything apart from Gengar or Jellicent anyway. Terrakion is more one dimentional and easier to face due to the lack of U-turn. If you have Spikes up you can punish it for double switching as it's never going to be using its STAB moves earlier on in the match lol. The disadvantage to using Wobbuffet is obviously if Terrakion isn't Choiced, then you'll need to be predicting whether to Encore or Counter. Rotom-W isn't going to be spamming Hydro Pumps, even in Rain, through fear of being revenge killed. If they're using a Scarf Politoed instead, then that's even more icing on the cake as you just revenge it even with Rain up.

These Pokemon aside, Wobbuffet almost always get a kill a game, two on those who don't react quickly enough to it. I urge people to try it out if they're bored with OU or are looking for some new ideas. I've been using a team of Ninetales/Skarmory/Wobbuffet/Heatran/Sawsbuck/Venusaur and it's the most fun I've had in BW OU for a while!

 

[BurningMan]

i have also used wobbuffet (not on a sun team though) and can attest that it is really great at winning weather wars and taking out choiced Pokemon in general. However i would use the max speed EV set as a lot of people don't speed creep for him anyway and it allows you to take out many defensive Pokemon most notably SDef Politoed.

 

[bubbly]

Agreed, Wobbuffet is so massively underappreciated. Just using it on a basic offense team to take out specific threats and Encore to give you time to set up is working pretty well for me right now.