So now that those 2 are done... Top or jungle Shyvana? I say top. I think she's outclassed in the jungle by Mundo. And I really like the fact that Shyvana can push really hard and deny the lanes of CS. I also think she needs more farm than the jungle actually has. Her counter jungling is really good too. When I see their jungler on the other side of the map, I'll just clear his jungle and come back into lane with a level advantage.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
League of Legends: Let's Talk About uhhh??
- Thread starter Thorns
- Start date
In a game that is based on farming, counter picks, teamplay, map awareness, individual skill and, most of all, focus, I really don't see how mathcraft will help you. It just seems like wasted effort. A head full of numbers will not make you more likely to win games, as is proven by your elo. Similar situations will not give the exact same result every time, I don't even know how any amount of mathcraft could be reliable when you take into account the myriad of different factors in any given game.
As for the BC vs LW discussion - they are both late-game items, the ones you buy after you have your IE, PD, etc (correct me if I am wrong, but I have never seen anyone buy a BC/LW before the aforementioned items). So LW is an obvious choice because the passive scales amazingly into lategame, whereas black cleaver has a fixed passive and a ramp-up time. You can't really argue that it gives you more passive stats, because you are paying for those extra stats.
The metagame changed - current AP mids make Corki almost impossible to play without being bursted down since he can't hold his own, and in an AD bot setting you don't have the fast levels to rush Manamune and stack it in time. I could ramble a lot more but I don't care enough and nobody here is changing their mind about anything so I say we let bygones be bygones and move on.
Speaking of moving on...
Today was my second time playing Vladimir and we entered the game with our Annie not connecting - she ended up rejoining the game when everyone else was level 6+ and she was quickly 0/4 a few minutes in. I went top, Graves went bot, Xin jungled, and and Talon went mid, against their Yi top (unorthodox), Malz mid, Udyr jungle, and Cait+Leona bot lane.
I pretty much win top without Xin's help since Vlad starts doing really well mid-game against most melees. This Yi knew what he was doing, though; we both had nearly 200 CS 20 minutes into the game (I was at 192 or something).
Anyway, we're down like 12 kills and it's 20 minutes in - two of my team gets picked and a third dies trying to save them, so it's just me and Graves (I'm at full because I ran from base, Graves is at ~60%) watching as they do Baron. We go in, Baron is at around 20% health, and I ult and smash my face on the keyboard while Graves does the same - he dies and I get a quadra; I'm fighting Malz and we both have almost no health and I pick up the penta, which pretty much puts my team back in the game. Talon and Xin are up and we barrel down mid and take down mid tower; I tell them to back since four are them are up including their 6/2 Caitlyn (who has IE+zeal at 21 minutes) but they don't listen, try to take down the inhib, and they die while I get out alive.
Game starts looking really bad - they pick up Baron and we have to turtle; Yi split pushes and takes out our top inhib and a nexus turret while we get mid inhib, they pick up Baron again and we have to turtle again. Pretty soon we get a good engage near Baron (we all have our end-game builds at this point, except Annie who's still level 14) and clean up. It's just me and Xin left; we take down mid inhib and push in to their nexus - take out both towers and start trying to finish it but Caitlyn's already up and kills us both with the help of Yi and Leona. They start rushing toward our base but Talon's sneaked around the red camp, jumps on the defending Leona, gets past her stun and takes down the half-health nexus to zero. Damn epic game and one of the best I've ever had.
For anyone who's interested, my build this game went boots->revolver->giant's belt->CDR boots->rylai's->WotA->chain vest->QSS->zhonya's->void staff with my final build being:
CDR boots
WotA
Rylai's
QSS
Hourglass
Void Staff
So I'm forced into last pick support, and I'm like, "Fuck it, I won't conform to your carry sitting job." First back, I buy philo + boots 1, and decide I want to kill Nasus. Nasus ends up 0/5 15 minutes in, and we invade at red right after and get Cass a double. It's at this point I become worried after Warwick feeds Varus a double kill and red buff bot, but you know how it ends!
idgi, sounds like it would be a blast
Do you guys mind checking out my Shyvana guide? Maybe gimme some feedback on the forums or in the comments.
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/solo-top-shyvana-hue-207523
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/solo-top-shyvana-hue-207523
i find your lack of phage disturbing
My Shyvana experience is basically purely in the jungle so some of this is based more on expectations than experience but:
Agree with above two comments outside of pookar's comment on Atma's. Particularly on the lack of Phage/Mallet support in the guide. If you continue taking Atma's Lethality is probably better than Havoc. EDIT: While I'm thinking about it, I know the lolpro guide suggests Butcher/Havoc over the points in Deadliness and Lethality too, in spite of also suggesting Atma's, so that's probably worth considering too, though I hate dropping mastery points on that for a non-jungler that shouldn't have trouble creeping since it's inconsequential objective control.
I don't understand why HoG isn't in your base build on the top of the guide if Randuin's is, especially given how good HP is on Shyv and how good early GP/10 tends to be in the farmfest that is top lane.
I am skeptical of the logic that packing Armor Quints vs. Olaf is a good idea since the reason why it is a difficult lane is that he can outtrade you in short trades with true damage, where using AD or HP quints would help more. The only time the Armor quints would really help you is when he gets beat down a little and tries to finish you off with help from his passive but you're probably fucked then regardless if you let him engage at that point.
FoN is probably better than you give it credit for. Exhaust too.
You misclicked the penetration masteries and their pre-reqs.
The mock sarcasm with the fake quotes makes some sections of the guide difficult to read.
Yeah, I think random numbers are definitely what determined your elo and not your 3/11/11 Vamp Scepter Triforce Nocturne, your inability to break 100 CS over what look slike pretty lengthy games judging by your total gold count and the time between your matches(at least 30 minutes) when jungling, that Sheen on the Taric game you were bragging about in spite of your shitty AS/AD and relatively long cooldowns, and similar amazing antics. Actually, looking at your match history and your ranked stats your ELO seems to be way too high, given that you managed to get a (normal) win as 3/3/4 67 CS Kennen where the Doran's Blade you still had at what must be at like 30-35 minutes for some reason leads me to believe you did the AD start for an easy laning phase but still couldn't farm somehow..? The 3/9/3 Lee Sin normal game is pretty pro too. How do you even feed that hard when your ELO is that low and you're playing against shit like AD Ziggs? If I look at your career history it's even worse: 11 death 19 CS Master YI (...?), 3/6/7 94 CS average Sivir, 3/9/6 average Sion, 0/6/4 average Alistar, 2.5/5.5/10.5 average with 29.5CS Mundo. In spite of the fact your ELO is so low you're in a game full of Rodans every game you're worse than 2 KDA on almost everyone. But at least you managed to get a win in a game it looks like you were intentionally feeding as Evelynn.
But yeah, definitely a lot of random numbers there.
Agree with above two comments outside of pookar's comment on Atma's. Particularly on the lack of Phage/Mallet support in the guide. If you continue taking Atma's Lethality is probably better than Havoc. EDIT: While I'm thinking about it, I know the lolpro guide suggests Butcher/Havoc over the points in Deadliness and Lethality too, in spite of also suggesting Atma's, so that's probably worth considering too, though I hate dropping mastery points on that for a non-jungler that shouldn't have trouble creeping since it's inconsequential objective control.
I don't understand why HoG isn't in your base build on the top of the guide if Randuin's is, especially given how good HP is on Shyv and how good early GP/10 tends to be in the farmfest that is top lane.
I am skeptical of the logic that packing Armor Quints vs. Olaf is a good idea since the reason why it is a difficult lane is that he can outtrade you in short trades with true damage, where using AD or HP quints would help more. The only time the Armor quints would really help you is when he gets beat down a little and tries to finish you off with help from his passive but you're probably fucked then regardless if you let him engage at that point.
FoN is probably better than you give it credit for. Exhaust too.
You misclicked the penetration masteries and their pre-reqs.
The mock sarcasm with the fake quotes makes some sections of the guide difficult to read.
Yeah, I think random numbers are definitely what determined your elo and not your 3/11/11 Vamp Scepter Triforce Nocturne, your inability to break 100 CS over what look slike pretty lengthy games judging by your total gold count and the time between your matches(at least 30 minutes) when jungling, that Sheen on the Taric game you were bragging about in spite of your shitty AS/AD and relatively long cooldowns, and similar amazing antics. Actually, looking at your match history and your ranked stats your ELO seems to be way too high, given that you managed to get a (normal) win as 3/3/4 67 CS Kennen where the Doran's Blade you still had at what must be at like 30-35 minutes for some reason leads me to believe you did the AD start for an easy laning phase but still couldn't farm somehow..? The 3/9/3 Lee Sin normal game is pretty pro too. How do you even feed that hard when your ELO is that low and you're playing against shit like AD Ziggs? If I look at your career history it's even worse: 11 death 19 CS Master YI (...?), 3/6/7 94 CS average Sivir, 3/9/6 average Sion, 0/6/4 average Alistar, 2.5/5.5/10.5 average with 29.5CS Mundo. In spite of the fact your ELO is so low you're in a game full of Rodans every game you're worse than 2 KDA on almost everyone. But at least you managed to get a win in a game it looks like you were intentionally feeding as Evelynn.
But yeah, definitely a lot of random numbers there.
Thanks Synre. Pookar, thanks for not explaining anything at all.
He has a point in that the wording at the counterpick section isn't the most professional, although he doesn't really elaborate on it. For example, you say:
Olaf. Oh my god. This match-up. Is really, really, really, one sided. The way I look at it is, there are 2 meele fighters. Now who's gonna win? The one who uses a true damage nuke? Or the one who requires AD to do damage. And you can't beat Olaf with sustain damage, he'll out sustain you with his W until his Thor Power is back up. But Username, JUST RUN! Heh. You're funny. He just hits you in the face with an axe.
VERDICT: YOU LOST HAHA.
Alternatively, you could have said:
Olaf. One of the most difficult matchups in the game for lane Shyvana, with the ability to zone you from CS with his true damage nuke while removing any speed advantage you have with his Undertow. He can outsustain you and outburst you, and he scales better than you do into late-game. This is an incredibly hard matchup for you to win, especially if the Olaf knows what he's doing, so try to farm at tower, exploit any mistakes he makes, and call for frequent jungler and mid-lane ganks if you want to win.
The wording you're using in your argument against Olaf is pessimistic and already puts a Shyvana player in a terrible mindset; one of "Oh God, and Olaf. Well, I lost this game, better not try at all." The second paragraph teaches the reader how fearsome Olaf is against a character who can't shut him down, but also teaches them to keep trying to stay in the game, to exploit weaknesses, to gank him often, and to win any way you can.
the fact that "ghost ignite shyvana" and "frozen heart on manaless hero" and "shyvana needs frozen mallet" need to be explained too the person who "if you pick shyvana in a team with no cc you deserve to lose" mindset just further exemplifies the unprofessionality your "guide" wreaks of
atmas is just not very efficient anymore, if you buy it for the passive damage at least. but if you are buying it for the armor, why not just get randuins. and then theres the random crit that I GUESS shyvana procs with her q MAYBE? its not really unusable, and i still build it sometimes out of lack of a better replacement item for a tanky dps hero so i guess its a bit hypocritical. Not too sure, to be honest it just seems like a wonky item right now. almost random stats. armor and crit strange combination with the nerfed passive
atmas is just not very efficient anymore, if you buy it for the passive damage at least. but if you are buying it for the armor, why not just get randuins. and then theres the random crit that I GUESS shyvana procs with her q MAYBE? its not really unusable, and i still build it sometimes out of lack of a better replacement item for a tanky dps hero so i guess its a bit hypocritical. Not too sure, to be honest it just seems like a wonky item right now. almost random stats. armor and crit strange combination with the nerfed passive
I can't help but feel like Kassadin's lore is shockingly similar to Mass Effect's plot. Please don't let me be alone here.
Atma's is no where near as good as it used to be but it's still more cost effective than a BF Sword on any character. Don't know anything about Shyvanna, but Atma's is still far from unusable.
I think Saint's argument regarding Atma's was mainly that for 800 gold less, he can pick up a Pickaxe and a Chain Vest and get maybe 10 less AD because of the nerfed HP to AD ratio on Atma's. The crit isn't useful on most champions anyway. Then you can turn your Pickaxe into a Maw and your Chain Vest into a Warden's Mail->Randuin's, both of which are much more useful. Agreed with Fiedler/pookar on this one.
Serious...? The only champ you pulled from ranked with more than 3 games played is Sion, and for a reason: half of them don't even belong in ranked. I don't even remember those games, but I know 29 CS with a jungler is hard to believe even in a 15 minute steamroll (I like to come out with 20 CS well before 4 minutes most of the time). One of those whopping two games probably ended with 0 CS and a leave(hint: disconnect[random factors outside of bad team]).
I could play-by-play every recent game, like the Nocturne game with only one person on our team coming out positive or doing any trace better than I, but why? It seems a matter of necessity that 1200, even 1400 games would be no different at all, that the placing period makes no sense at all considering I'm much better than when I was 1200, that there's minimum one person forced into a role every team every game, and that it'll take like a 70% win ratio for me to make it to the same ELO as a 55% win ratio player because I dodged during placing. Ranking is arbitrary, League of Legends is arbitrary.
Frozen Heart on a manaless champ: 400 dollars more for one of the best passives in the game. Again, you said Ghost and Ignite is bad. Extremely vague. It's an aggressive set-up. Flash isn't as great of gap closer/chase spell as Ghost is. I like to get into level one fights with people as Shyvana. And Flash doesn't help me as much as Ghost does early. I still get Randuins. Atma's is perfectly fine. I get about 53 Ad from it. I don't like Maw on Shyvana because I find it better on caster bruisers like lee sin or riven.
Atma's is perfectly mediocre now, just like Maw. They're both barely worth getting, honestly now that the damage gap is almost gone I'd rather get Sunfire Cape in most circumstances and it's not all that good either. ;/ Frozen Heart is fine on a manaless champion no matter how much it hurts for that itemization budget on mana going to waste; the Armor is worth half its budget and while putting a definitive value to CDR is difficult, another 1500g for 20% plus the debuff aura is not so bad at all. It doesn't stop certain manaless champions from buying Sheen and its upgrades... Shyvana doesn't benefit particularly well from CDR though. That said, there isn't exactly a lot of ways to itemize CDR
I don't play Shyvana but I don't see what's wrong with Ghost over Flash on her. Lots of bruisers prefer Ghost, perhaps even a majority.
I don't play Shyvana but I don't see what's wrong with Ghost over Flash on her. Lots of bruisers prefer Ghost, perhaps even a majority.
CDR gives her more attack speed. (Q=Auto Attack Reset) Back to Atma's. I don't think the nerf hit it THAT hard. Yeah, sure. The Crit Chance isn't needed, but I still really like the passive. Shyvana naturally scales well into late game, so by no means am I relying on this to be my late game damage. I just don't know what to replace it with. I can usually pick up around 30 minutes when my damage starts to decline, AD Carry's start to get fed... etc.