Counter This Pokemon [OLD VERSION]

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Toxicroak @ Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP, 252 ATT, 252 SPE
Nature: Adamant (+Att, -SpA)
- Swords Dance
- Cross Chop
- Ice Punch
- Sucker Punch

Straight from the Analysis - Immune to hydro pump, and Thunder (Starmie's most powerful move) only does 50.32 - 59.41%, not a 2hko after 1 turn of dry skin. (Assuming rain, as thunder is being used)

Suckerpunch in turn does 95.78 - 112.64%, 65% chance of a OHKO.

If Starmie Tricks on the switch, giving itself the life orb, Scarf croak Sucker Punch: 73.56 - 86.59%, its still a guaranteed 2hko. The only way for Starmie to win ON A ONE-ON-ONE BASIS is to stall out Sucker Punch with continuously tricking, Cross Chop is still a 3hko though, so its a risk.
 
A much more offensive take on switching into Scarf Starmie:

Virizion @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Trait: Justified
EVs: 24 HP / 234 SpAtk / 252 Spe
Timid nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Giga Drain
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]

CM Virizion. Using its great base 129 Special Defense, Virizion can switch into Choice Scarf Starmie, taking 50% at most and 42% at minimum from Ice Beam. Virizion resists Starmie's other 2 moves. Meanwhile, an unboosted Giga Drain with Life Orb easily will OHKO Starmie. Life Orb assures the OHKO with Giga Drain (no SR needed) while Leftovers forces Starmie to get 2 max damage rolls if it has any hope of 2HKOing with Ice Beam with SR on your side of the field, (Lefties cancels out SR) but you then lose the ability to get the unconditional OHKO with Giga Drain without SR. If you switch into any other move besides Ice Beam, Starmie is forced out or becomes setup fodder should it try to stay in. 24 HP EVs hit a Life Orb number and adds a little extra buff to Virizion's special bulk while taking very little away from Virizion's Special Attack. (you still can't OHKO with max investment while holding Leftovers)
 
Patolegend! said:
If Starmie Tricks on the switch, giving itself the life orb, Scarf croak Sucker Punch: 73.56 - 86.59%, its still a guaranteed 2hko. The only way for Starmie to win is to stall out Sucker Punch with continuously tricking, Cross Chop is still a 3hko though, so its a risk.
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You realize you're not playing in a vacuum, right? Starmie can easily switch out of Toxicroak who in this instance (receiving a Scarf), for some reason, decided to lock itself into an unreliable 8 PP move. Skarmory would get free hazards, a Whirlwind, or just spank you or your switch-in with Brave Bird. Ferrothorn is free to set up hazards or even use Leech Seed on Toxicroak or your switch-in. Toxicroak simply does not have the high ground if it receives a Choice Scarf, but it's okay otherwise. Check at best.
 
I don't think we should assume that any weather is up. Starmie is common out of rain also, so there is a pretty high chance you're not in rain. Unless the specific counter you are posting does activate weather, I think we should assume there is no weather.
 
Electrolyte said:
I don't think we should assume that any weather is up. Starmie is common out of rain also, so there is a pretty high chance you're not in rain. Unless the specific counter you are posting does activate weather, I think we should assume there is no weather.
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I think most people are assuming rain because the posted Starmie has Thunder over Tbolt.
 
For the record, the user that posted Gastrodon said he resists Ice Beam, which is not correct, he's simply neutral.

Interestingly enough, the Lanturn I suggested before against thundurus actually works against Starmie as well:

Lanturn @ Leftovers
Modest Nature
Volt Absorb
52 HP/252 SpA/204 SpD
-Substitute
-Charge Beam
-Ice Beam
-Surf

Lanturn can come in on any of Starmie's attacks and take minimal damage, with the most threatening being Hydro Pump (20.04 - 23.76% outside of rain). He can then set up a Sub that Starmie cannot even break with one attack, and proceed to 2HKO with Charge Beam (55.93 - 66.66% before any boosts). If Starmie uses Trick on the switch, Lanturn still wins with straight Charge Beam. The only way Starmie could possibly win is in rain, and even then Hydro Pump only has a 45.92% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock. If it is raining, Lanturn could run Thunder instead to score the OHKO, or redistribute a few more EVs from SpA to HP or SpD to avoid the 3HKO and still 2HKO with Charge Beam. The SubCharge set is still a reliable counter though.
 
NixHex said:
You realize you're not playing in a vacuum, right? Starmie can easily switch out of Toxicroak who in this instance (receiving a Scarf), for some reason, decided to lock itself into an unreliable 8 PP move. Skarmory would get free hazards, a Whirlwind, or just spank you or your switch-in with Brave Bird. Ferrothorn is free to set up hazards or even use Leech Seed on Toxicroak or your switch-in. Toxicroak simply does not have the high ground if it receives a Choice Scarf, but it's okay otherwise. Check at best.
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Surely we're on a one-on-one basis here. If Starmie stays in... it loses. I can see what you mean, but that could be the same for any poke, for example the gastrodon mentioned earlier. Any mon when scarfed can be taken advantage of by the rest of the opponents team.

Edit - Reading that back, I take it back. I leave it as a check.
 
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Kyurem @ Choice Scarf
Modest Nature
Pressure
4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
-Draco Meteor
-Blizzard
-Hidden Power [Fire]
-Focus Blast

Standard Scarfed Kyurem can survive even 2 rain boosted Hydro Pump (even after rocks sometimes) and proceed to OHKO with Draco Meteor. As he's already scarfed he also doesn't fear Trick. The Sub+3 attacks set works similar 2HKOing with Dragon Pulse, but fears Trick.

Hydro Pump 22.3 - 26.31%
Hydro Pump(rain) 33.08 - 39.09%
Ice Beam 23.55 - 27.81%
 
The Ferrothorn I posted earlier can't really be considered anything more than a check thanks to Trick (thanks for helping to clarify what "check" and "counter" mean in this instance, guys) so here's another try.

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Abomasnow @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Snow Warning
16 Atk / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
Nature: Hasty (+Spe, -Def)
~ Blizzard
~ Wood Hammer
~ Hidden Power Fire
~ Earthquake

Abomasnow can switch in on anything Starmie has, but switching in on Trick is ideal since it's effectively a no-op. If Starmie is relying on rain to make Thunder more accurate, Snow Warning puts a stop to that. Wood Hammer is a OHKO whereas Starmie can only 3HKO with Ice Beam after Stealth Rock. The only downside is Abomasnow can't really do anything about the switch.
 
This might be considered nitpicking but most of the counters you guys mentioned are crippled by trick so can we really consider them counters?
 
Patolegend! said:
Surely we're on a one-on-one basis here. If Starmie stays in... it loses. I can see what you mean, but that could be the same for any poke, for example the gastrodon mentioned earlier. Any mon when scarfed can be taken advantage of by the rest of the opponents team.

Edit - Reading that back, I take it back. I leave it as a check.
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It was a special case because if you are locked into Sucker Punch, it's all in your opponent's hands whether you get to do damage or not. Free Substitute, free burn, free hazards, you get my point. Starmie is not "forced" out, it is graciously handed a free pass out so it hasn't been countered. Job well done for Starmie, imo.
 
Assume it's in rain. I should even have to specify that since it has Thunder but I'll list it for future entries. To be fair, none of the listed counters (so far) are hindered by rain, especially Abomasnow and Tyranitar since they start their own weather. Making the rule change in the OP.
 
papita said:
This might be considered nitpicking but most of the counters you guys mentioned are crippled by trick so can we really consider them counters?
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I have to disagree with you. None of the pokemon here are crippled hard by trick (except ferro but he's off the list now.) For example, Virizion benefits slightly from Trick as it becomes as fast as Scarfed Terrakion. Kyurem already has a scarf. Tyranitar becomes scarier, Abomasnow more of a revenger. Lanturn even sweeps by spamming Charge Beam and eating boosts. Even if some pokemon aren't as powerful as they are suposed to be after Trick, none of them lose their ability to counter Starmie.
 
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Blissey @ Mail
whatever spread/nature QC decide upon
- Seismic Toss
- Thunder Wave
- Softboiled
- Aromatherapy

Starmie can't hurt Blissey with special attacks and Mail causes Trick to fail. Bit of a niche option but it got some attention in DPPt when the Trick tutor was released and everybody went Trick crazy for a few months.
 
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Kingdra @ Choice Specs
Swift Swim
Timid Nature 90 HP / 168 Speed / 252 S.Att
~ Hydro Pump
~ Dragon Pulse
~ Draco Meteor
~ Signal Beam / Hidden Power Fire

Can easily come in without being OHKO'd (especially on a water move), outspeeds and OHKOs. I believe Signal Beam will do the trick, but pretty sure Draco Meteor will OHKO it also.
 
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Latios @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Psyshock

This Latios set can switch in on any of Starmie's moves bar Ice Beam, and OHKO with Draco Meteor (100 - 117.62%) or Thunderbolt (91.18 - 107.27%) if the Starmie is Life Orb. However, Latios does fear switching into Scarfed Ice Beam(outspeeds and 2HKO's) and Specs Ice Beam(37.5% to OHKO after rocks). However, if Starmie is locked into Ice Beam, one can trap it with...

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Scizor @ Choice Band
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 248 HP / 8 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Pursuit
- Superpower
- U-Turn

If Starmie is locked into Ice Beam, Scizor switches in, taking minimal damage (22.44 - 26.53% with Specs) and promptly OHKO's with either U-Turn (165.51 - 195.4%) or Pursuit (95.01 - 111.87%).
 
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Virizion @ Life Orb
Jolly
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade
- Stone Edge

Very nice counter, can take ANY hit without dying, and can OHKO with Leaf blade
 
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Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Giga Drain
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast / Rain Dance

It can switch in on any move thanks to quadruple resistance to Hydro Pump and neutrality to the rest of the moveset without being 2HKO'd in the process (even with Rocks on the field), and proceed to OHKO with Giga Drain. If Starmie decides to Trick, Ludicolo outspeeds and has a 50% chance to OHKO it even without Life Orb (100% with Stealth Rock); being an all-out attacker, Ludicolo doesn't mind too much the Scarf anyway. The only way Starmie has to win relies on parahax (Thunder paralysis and Ludicolo fully paralized), but that's a quite low chance (12.5% if I'm not wrong), comparable to the chance of being freezed by Ice Beam, so I guess it's not too significant.

Calcs:
252 SpAtk Starmie Thunder vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Ludicolo: 109-129 (36.09 - 42.71%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpAtk Modest Life Orb Ludicolo Giga Drain vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Starmie: 312-368 (119.54 - 140.99%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpAtk Modest Ludicolo Giga Drain vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Starmie: 240-284 (91.95 - 108.81%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
 
I like Electrolyte's T-Tar set, since it summons auto Sand and that'll finish Starmie off at the end of the turn.

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Wobbuffet (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 200 Def, 56 SpD, 252 Spe
Counter
Mirror Coat
Encore
Tickle / Destiny Bond

I personally run Tickle, but that's not relevant to this situation. Hydro Pump is only a 3HKO, so you can switch-in and Mirror Coat. Should you get tricked, you can Mirror Coat anyway, since Tricking hardly harms Wobbuffet in this 1-on-1 situation. And although having a Choice-locked Wobb is kind of bad, it CAN work out to your advantage, since the Choice Scarf lets you Encore a wider variety of Pokemon before they can move again, like neutral-nature Gliscor (Defensive sets) and Breloom. You will loose if you switch into a Trick and Encore while they Hydro Pump you, but your first move should be Mirror Coat anyway.
 
Ah, so I see you took my failed attempt at a counter that pokemon thread and reworked it for OU. I have to say the "target a day" system works a lot better on this highly populated forum than the "counter the last poster" system I used.

Also I find it amusing that you posted trick-scarf Starmie for this week, since it's a set I suggested in the last OU CCAT, though I believe we came up with the set independantly of one another.

Anyway, onto business.

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Rotom-W @ Leftovers
Nature: Modest
EVs: 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 Spe
- Volt-Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power Fire / Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split

The worst Starmie can do to Rotom-W is hit it with Thunder, which will never 2HKO with Stealth rock. Trick, as annoying as it is, doesn't harm Rotom-W as much as it would most counters since Rotom-W runs scarf half the time anyway. Volt-Switch, on the other hand, puts Starmie at 5% health at most and OHKO's 2/3s of the time without stealth rock, leaving it open to being finished off by so much as a tap should it hang on. You could run thunderbolt for a 100% KO of course, but usually the other moves have more utility. Pain split can heal off damage incurred from Thunder should you need to. Really, the only real threat is paralysis from thunder, but that requires an awful lot of nasty hax and usually Starmie won't be dumb enough to stay in anyway. And when it does switch out, you can volt-switch away to a counter, getting some serious momentum. Well unless you get tricked and then locked into volt-switch and the opponent has an immunity I suppose. Still, a better answer than most. You could also run a different spread to better take hits from more special attackers with more special defense or something, but I'm not familiar with that spread so I just posted the old one.
 
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Ninetales @ Leftovers
Nature: Calm
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spe
- Flamethrower
- Protect
- Energy Ball
- Will-O-Wisp

With the help of Protect for Leftovers recovery, Starmie needs to have Stealth Rock up and get very lucky with Hydro Pump in order to 2HKO. Ninetales can only 2HKO with Energy Ball in return, but with Starmie either locked into a Sun-weakened Hydro Pump, a 50% accuracy Thunder, or a weak Ice Beam, it should be easy for Ninetales's team to deal with Starmie. Ninetales doesn't particularly care about Trick as a Choice Scarf can allow it to do things like revenge kill Virizion, Breloom, and weakened Metagross.
 
Ninetales only has a 1.17% chance to 2HKO; Starmie has an 84.38% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, and it outspeeds. I don't think your Protect-stall plan is anywhere near likely enough to succeed for Ninetales to function as a counter, since you need enough Leftovers recovery to survive a Hydro Pump and retaliate with an Energy Ball on 2-3 separate occasions.
 
Shedinja
Focus Sash / Lum Berry
Lonely
~ Swords Dance
~ X-Scissor
~ Shadow Sneak / Sucker Punch
~ Protect / Will-O-Wisp
0 Def IV
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Taken straight from the analysis. The only thing that Starmie can do to Shedinja is use Toxic which isn't featured in any analyses.

252 Atk Shedinja (+Atk) X-Scissor vs 4 HP/0 Def Starmie: 97.33% - 115.65%
252 Atk Shedinja (+Atk) Shadow Sneak vs 4 HP/0 Def Starmie: 49.24% - 58.4%
252 Atk Shedinja (+Atk) X-Scissor vs 252 HP/252 Def Starmie (+Def) : 55.56% - 65.74%
252 Atk Shedinja (+Atk) Shadow Sneak vs 252 HP/252 Def Starmie (+Def) : 27.78% - 33.33%

Edit: Oh I thought neither side having Stealth Rocks was agreed upon. Oh well, I'll assume that I have a Rapid Spin user for this scenario (and Starmie is a spinner [if not in this certain team] to make the fight even)
 
Remember that Stealth Rock is on the field in "Normal Battle Conditions," but I guess Shedinja could be the exception since nobody is dumb enough to use Shedinja without a Rapid Spinner.
 
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