Counter This Pokemon [OLD VERSION]

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ganj4lF said:
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Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice]

It avoids the KO on the switch, even with Stealth Rock / Spikes / Toxic Spikes / Sandstorm, since Magic Guard prevents all those things from dealing damage and Focus Sash ensures that it doesn't faint from one single hit. Alakazam will then outspeed and swiftly OHKO with HP Ice.
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The problem with using that to counter Landorus is that the opponent will simply switch out. When Landorus comes back in, you will no longer be able to switch into it. It's a check at best, but not a counter.
 
DarkBlazeR said:
The problem with using that to counter Landorus is that the opponent will simply switch out. When Landorus comes back in, you will no longer be able to switch into it. It's a check at best, but not a counter.
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Well, this is true for almost every offensive pokemon mentioned: Virizion, Scarf Suicune are 2HKO'd by EQ, so they can switch in only once, while Rotom is again 2HKO'd by Stone Edge or HP Ice. Furthermore, the definition of counter in the OP does NOT require you to be able to switch in multiple times, so I don't think your observation is enough to reject it as a counter. Of course, you have a point, but Alakazam is far from useless even at 1 HP thanks to high speed and Magic Guard, and has some situational but significant advantages (for example, it doesn't care about hazards, or critical hits on the switch, which will absolutely obliterate most of the other counters listed).
 
Yeah there is a very fine line between check and counter, I feel alakazam crosses the line just a bit because if you consider it a counter here, it is almost a counter for every pokemon listed outside of agility Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T. However it does make an excellent check you do have to give him that, it can switch in at least once AND come in later to traditionally check again.

Even though I feel alakazam does cross the line, there are plenty of pokemon that can only come into something so many times before being forced out, Skarm vs dragon dance Dragonite for example, skarm can only come in and whirlwind twice losing 50% health after each fire punch, and if you don't whirlwind to something to heal on the first time, skam is pretty much screwed.
 
I was thinking about Sableye, but it is KOed with sandstorm boost maximum damage EQ(76%-90%) and Stealth Rock damage.

Bold Sableye with 252 HP / 252+ Def

Without sand isn't a counter, EQ deals (58%-69%) with maximun damage 2KO, but at least Sableye cripples him with WoW

Hell even Polited with 252 HP / 252+Def can be KOed with EQ(46%-54%)

Cofragigus in sand is around the same, 252HP/252+Def, with EQ(46%-54%)
 
DarkBlazeR said:
The problem with using that to counter Landorus is that the opponent will simply switch out. When Landorus comes back in, you will no longer be able to switch into it. It's a check at best, but not a counter.
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If forcing your opponent out =/= counter, then the only counters to ANYTHING are Pursuit users, Dugtrio, Wobbuffet, Magnezone, and Magneton... With Stealth Rock, not many counters listed will be able to switch in multiple times, it's just the nature of the beast.
 
I was going to do Celebi but seeing as it's been done:

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Breloom @Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Nature: Impish
- Spore
- Seed Bomb
- Leech Seed
- Mach Punch / Protect

Seed Bomb 36.99% ~ 43.57% (3HKO)

EQ 27.19% ~ 31.87%
HP Ice 63.12% ~ 74.38% (2HKO)

Breloom has to be wary of HP Ice, but it can wear Landorus down with Leech Seed and Seed Bomb. Not the best counter but it can do the job in a pinch.
 
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Hippowdon @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Impish
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Slack Off

Landorus LO Earthquake vs Hippowdon: 39.04 - 45.71%
HP Ice: 34.76 - 40.95%

Hippowdon Ice Fang vs Landorus: 70.21 - 84.01%

Hippowdon is never 2HKOed by any of Landorus's attacks, even after Stealth Rock, so it can happily Slack Off to Life Orb stall Landorus into KO range for Ice Fang. Not much else needs to be said; Hippowdon remains an excellent physical wall that does not rely on an immunity to Ground-type attacks.
 
Rackham said:
I was going to do Celebi but seeing as it's been done:


Breloom @Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Nature: Impish
[I]- Spore
- Seed Bomb
- Leech Seed
- Mach Punch / Protect[/I]

Seed Bomb 36.99% ~ 43.57% (3HKO)

EQ 27.19% ~ 31.87%
HP Ice 63.12% ~ 74.38% (2HKO)

Breloom has to be wary of HP Ice, but it can wear Landorus down with Leech Seed and Seed Bomb. Not the best counter but it can do the job in a pinch.[/QUOTE]

Really shaky counter. The combination of EQ and HP Ice has a 3/4 chance to KO you in sandstorm, if my clalculations are correct. That is NOT counting SR, which would make the probability even higher. I am not counting poison heal damage because we assume that you come in scotch free.
Your chances of survival rise if:
1. You come in on Stone Edge
2. You are poisoned already
If you're really lucky/have a bug type in, you might win; but your chances are still small.
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Latias w/Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate(Duh)
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
-Draco Meteor
-Drago Pulse
-Surf
-Thunderbolt

Surf:115-137%:OHKO

Stone Edge: 64-76%:2HKO
Earthquake:75-88%: OHKO Considering Sandstorm and Rocks

Latias is faster, and can OHKO with Surf, the only thing Latias has to watch out for is switching in onto an Earthquake after Gravity has been used.
 
Alternative spread for Latias: 252 HP / 74 Def / 332 Spe

Guaranteed to outspeed Landorus and KO with Surf (assuming SR Damage), but it'll take hits better:

252 Atk Life Orb Landorus Earthquake vs 252 HP/74 Def Latias: 57.69% - 67.86% (2 hits to KO)

252 Atk Life Orb Landorus Stone Edge vs 252 HP/74 Def Latias: 38.46% - 45.33% (3 hits to KO)

Specialised spread does limit its use elsewhere though, but it can still function as a highly effective utilty counter to other threats like non-band Terrakion, Gyarados, and can revenge Dragons too
 
Woodchuck said:
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Hippowdon @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Impish
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Slack Off

Landorus LO Earthquake vs Hippowdon: 39.04 - 45.71%
HP Ice: 34.76 - 40.95%

Hippowdon Ice Fang vs Landorus: 70.21 - 84.01%

Hippowdon is never 2HKOed by any of Landorus's attacks, even after Stealth Rock, so it can happily Slack Off to Life Orb stall Landorus into KO range for Ice Fang. Not much else needs to be said; Hippowdon remains an excellent physical wall that does not rely on an immunity to Ground-type attacks.
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I don't think you took Sand Force into account. I'm getting this

349 Atk vs 300 Def & 420 HP (130 Base Power): 211 - 250 (50.24% - 59.52%)

Easy 2HKO with earthquake, and if you decided to run max/max impish to avoid getting 2HKOed by earthquake you'd be taking this from HP ice:

267 Atk vs 180 Def & 420 HP (70 Base Power): 194 - 230 (46.19% - 54.76%)

which is a 56.87% chance of a 2HKO after SR and leftovers.

It's a good check at best, but not the definition of a true counter.
 
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Conkeldurr (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Fist
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Def
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Drain Punch
- Bulk Up / Mach Punch
- Ice Punch
- Payback

Conkeldurr with it's great natural bulk can take any hit from Landorus, even when boosted by Life Orb and Sand Force while being able to retaliate with an Ice Punch that is guaranteed to OHKO.

252 Atk Conkeldurr (+Atk) Ice Punch vs 0 HP/4 Def Landorus: 129.15% - 152.98%
Guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sand Force Landorus Earthquake vs 120 HP/136 Def Conkeldurr: 64.04% - 75.59%
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

Detailed Result:
252 Atk Life Orb Sand Force Landorus Stone Edge vs 120 HP/136 Def Conkeldurr: 21.26% - 25.2%
5-7 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

Detailed Result:
0 SpAtk Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs 120 HP/0 SpDef Conkeldurr: 27.82% - 32.55%
4-5 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
 
Are you sure those EVs are optimal with Impish?
Woodchuck said:
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Hippowdon @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Impish
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Slack Off

Landorus LO Earthquake vs Hippowdon: 39.04 - 45.71%
HP Ice: 34.76 - 40.95%

Hippowdon Ice Fang vs Landorus: 70.21 - 84.01%

Hippowdon is never 2HKOed by any of Landorus's attacks, even after Stealth Rock, so it can happily Slack Off to Life Orb stall Landorus into KO range for Ice Fang. Not much else needs to be said; Hippowdon remains an excellent physical wall that does not rely on an immunity to Ground-type attacks.
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Yeah NixHex they are, even with max SpD and min Def, Def is still higher!

Also i think that the right Gravity Landorus to use is the one with U-turn, not with Stone Edge.... U-turn allows scouting, which is always nice, and removes your biggest counter from the way, Celebi. Stone Edge is not needed as everything that flies is covered with HP Ice (with a few exceptions, such as Gyarados, which takes ~71% from Sand Force EQ at after Intimidate).
 
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Slowbro @ Leftovers
Regenerator
Bold nature
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
- Slack Off

Isn't 3HKOd even after SR+Sandstorm damage by EQ, and can stall with Slack Off or outright KO with Ice Beam (Scald 2HKOs if you don't run that).
EDIT: Disregard this, I forgot to factor in LO...
 
I love slowbro to death but:

(45.93 - 54.31%) -- 53.13% chance to 2HKO after weather (guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather)

Yeah slowbro can't take 2 hits, so if it earthquakes on the switch, its a no go. Its only a counter if sand isn't up (thank god no one uses life orb on Landorus).
 
It's not a counter if it's slower than Landorus and is 2HKOed. The point of the counter is for it to be able to switch into ANY of Landorus' moves and still beat it thereafter. Not sure how you figure Conkelderp and Slowbro are counters...
 
Shit, I have to get here faster. I was going to use Hippo! Sp.D Hippo is amazing for so many reasons. :naughty:
 
alexwolf said:
Yeah NixHex they are, even with max SpD and min Def, Def is still higher!

Also i think that the right Gravity Landorus to use is the one with U-turn, not with Stone Edge.... U-turn allows scouting, which is always nice, and removes your biggest counter from the way, Celebi. Stone Edge is not needed as everything that flies is covered with HP Ice (with a few exceptions, such as Gyarados, which takes ~71% from Sand Force EQ at after Intimidate).
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Don't forget, Gravity is in use so you won't be hitting those flying-types for super-effective damage with HP Ice unless they're second typing is weak to Ice as well.
 
alkinesthetase said:
http://www.smogon.com/bw/articles/bw_gravity

i was under the impression that gravity only eliminates ground type immunities? i'm pretty sure it doesn't eliminate weaknesses the way roost does
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Here is what i read from that article.

"There is a common misconception that the Flying-type is removed while Gravity is in effect, somewhat like the effect of the move Roost on a Pokemon's type. This is not strictly true. Even under Gravity, Skarmory is still neutral to Fighting-type moves and weak to Electric-type moves. The only difference in terms of type effectiveness is that Skarmory is now 2x weak to Ground-type attacks (because of its Steel typing), and is damaged by Spikes upon entry. Similarly, a Bug- and Flying-type Pokemon such as Yanmega, while normally immune to Ground-type attacks, will take 0.5x damage from them under Gravity (because of its Bug typing, which resists Ground-type moves), but will retain a 4x resistance to Fighting-type attacks. Furthermore, Flying-types will still take 2x damage from Stealth Rock, and those 4x weak to Stealth Rock, such as Ninjask and Volcarona, will still be stripped of half of their maximum HP upon entry."

This move is fucking flawed. Pokes pretty much have their weaknesses and resistances with their regular typing AND new weaknesses and resistances with being grounded from Gravity. I do not see why it wouldn't work like Roost. Damn you GameFreak!
 
G-Von said:
This move is fucking flawed. Pokes pretty much have their weaknesses and resistances with their regular typing AND new weaknesses and resistances with being grounded from Gravity. I do not see why it wouldn't work like Roost. Damn you GameFreak!
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Nah, it actually makes perfect sense. It works the same way as Smack Down. By pulling a bird to the ground, i don't turn it into a rat; it's still a bird, but now it's on the ground. Roost is the weird one.
 
surprised nobody has thought of using a pokemon with Intimidate:

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Scrafty @ Leftovers
Adamant Nature
Intimidate
192 HP/64 Att/252 Def
-Bulk Up
-Drain Punch
-Ice Punch
-Crunch
The given EV spread means EQ at -1 will do 40.43 - 47.96% damage, which is only a 3.13% chance of 2HKO after rocks and weather. This means Scrafty can switch in on even an EQ, take the second EQ and survive 96.87% of the time, and OHKO with Ice Punch (guaranteed OHKO after two turns of Life Orb damage). Now, this is a shaky counter at best due to the fact that it will be very low on HP afterward, and there's a slight chance it will die after the second turn of sandstorm damage, even after killing Landorus. However, it can at least reliably take Landorus down almost every time.
 
May I quote you in my sig, Pwnemon? That reply was awesome =D

And yeah, about Slowbro, it's quite devastating that it takes so much damage from Earthquake, though I got something else from my calcs Scarfwynaut (I just realized I messed up the calcs, I'm sorry you were right):
Sand Force boosted LO EQ from 252 EV/30 IV Landorus-I v. 252/252+ Slowbro= 183-215 (46.52-54.73%),
which means that it will always be KO'd if it switches into Stealth Rock. I was about to mention it as a possible counter (it survived for me an Outrage from a Jolly ScarMoxieMence at +2 and KO'd it back), but since Porygon2 with Trace negating Sandstorm damage and Eviolite boosting its Defense couldn't take two EQ's most of the time, poor little Bro would fail bigger time.
Heck, even Suicune with max defenses and a Bold nature can't take two Earthquakes!
Sand Force boosted LO EQ from 252 EV/30 IV Landorus-I v. 252/252+ Suicune= 177-209 (44.00-51.78%),
meaning it will faint to two Earthquakes after SR damage 100% of the time.

I know that this probably isn't new to most of you since the only different thing for Landorus now is its access to Gravity, but those calcs are pretty impressive to me... Sand Force really shortens the number of counters for it, and SR helps to break Mamoswine's Sash, which could put it in OHKO range for Earthquake if Mamo doesn't invest in HP.
Standard Sash Mamoswine gets the following calcs:
Sand Force boosted LO EQ from 252 EV/30 IV Landorus-I v. 0/4 Mamoswine= 323-380 (89.49-105.28%),
which is a guaranteed OHKO after SR. Unless someone goes with an unconventional EV spread with more HP investment, Mamoswine can't come in at all...
 
well mamo's niche has always been as a check, it's historically never invested in enough bulk to counter any hard hitters. rather like terrakion, if it gets in it will be raising hell, but it's no easy task to get in. landorus-I's earthquakes in sand (stronger than landorus-T's earthquakes) are among the most powerful physical attacks in OU so it's no surprise that it just blows stuff away. i was trying to think of a few solid counters to this landorus-I, but choosing hp ice for coverage over uturn for utility makes it a lot harder, and obviously nothing flying can come in on earthquake when they risk gravity on the switch (otherwise i would have suggested air balloon eviolite lairon 8D jk). waterbomb's suggestion of intimidate mons sounds like the only way to get enough physical bulk to take landorus on.

and as for roost/gravity, i can personally find agreement with either explanation... ultimately it is a flavor argument though, so i'll hold my tongue. your mileage may vary *shrug*
 
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