Stall is not dead. What the fuck people.
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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tobes
- Start date
Yeah stall is fine, its just not easy to make anymore like it was last gen or even earlier this gen. Ive used stall a ton and some pretty good success it really comes down to the team building. Stall is always an acceptable play style, you can even find it in ubers for Christ's sake.
Also:
Stall : 8.8%
Celebi: 9.151%
Magnezone: 8.843%
Jellicent: 7.907%
Ignoring stall is like ignoring one of these pokemon, go ahead make your self weak to Celebi, see how far you get.
Edit: Dark Fallen Angel that was me using Zapdos lol XD.
Also:
Stall : 8.8%
Celebi: 9.151%
Magnezone: 8.843%
Jellicent: 7.907%
Ignoring stall is like ignoring one of these pokemon, go ahead make your self weak to Celebi, see how far you get.
Edit: Dark Fallen Angel that was me using Zapdos lol XD.
Stall is in fact not dead, but I must agree that is much harder to see stall now than before. Everybody is using an offensive style or balanced, and there were very few times that I've seen stall, curiously in all these occasions the opponent was using Zapdos. Zapdos is that necessary to stall?
There was a thing that I remembered now; In all ocasions that I've seen a Baton Pass team, they used Metagross as their main recipient. So, in fact, there are still many people using Metagross.
There was a thing that I remembered now; In all ocasions that I've seen a Baton Pass team, they used Metagross as their main recipient. So, in fact, there are still many people using Metagross.
of course i take celebi, magnezone, and other such threats into account when teambuilding. you don't take stall into account, though...it just doesn't do the job these days. deoxys-d alone just shits all over stall, as does mew, both of whom have coincidentally risen back to OU. sure, a well-made stall team in the hands of a skilled player can be effective...but you could say the same about most playstyles.
I personally don't see any of the BW2 affecting stall significantly. All the new additions, such as TechLoom, Keldeo, and Thundurus-T are checked by Latias. Landorus-T and Tornadus-T are weaker counterparts to their incarnate forms in their respective weathers.
I do admit that the new BW2 tutor moves made Hydreigon, Kyurem, and Haxorus even harder to manage, though.
I do admit that the new BW2 tutor moves made Hydreigon, Kyurem, and Haxorus even harder to manage, though.
My problem with all my defensive teams at the moment is that I'm completely forced to run Latias, and for me it just doesn't work as a midgame defensive pokemon. I've tried Specs (meh power and setup fodder), the various CM versions (Tyranitar, Scizor, Jirachi, Ferrothorn have a field day etc), even random LO + 3 attacks sets. It's made worse by the fact that the things it needs to switch into are often Volt Switchers, and are invariably paired with things which just laugh at it. If anyone has been successful with using Latias please let me know what set you've been using lol.
Stall is far from dead and this is coming from someone who has had very little faith in them since gen 4. I think you guys mean to say that outright walling is dead. In this day and age, the offensive pokemom are so good, that they have almost no walls that can consistently switch into their attacks and stop them. But that's not what you should be relying on when using a stall team and it never really was. It's not all about outright walling your opponent until he kills himself off of residual damage. It's about staying ahead of your opponent while forcing him to play the way you want him to. Control, if you will.
Speaking of wich, I've seen much less people using Lati@s than ever. Why this is happening? In the few teams that I've seen Lati@s, that was Latios, not Latias. I don't know why since her great Special Defense can sponge many of the attacks commonly seen on rain teams, and as said above, she can also check Breloom (not counter, as someone said before; Despite her resistances to both Grass and Fighting, she risks taking a Low Sweep on switch, being Spored and then Bullet Seeded to death).
This may be because of the new toys that Haxorus, Kyurem and Hydreigon gained? Because I've seen much more people using the aforementioned Pokémon than before, this competition may be the reason why I am seeing less Lati@s now.
I don't recall - or rather it has never been advocated - to coddle any particular playing style as affecting the reason for a ban of any of the mons that were moved up or currently stay in uber. The whole ban Reiunculus bandwagon pretty much attests to this, where stall players repeatedly tried to push for the ban on said mon precisely because it was one of the premiere anti-stall mons.
As for the death of stall I think this topic has been discussed to death, it pretty much went hand in hand with the "ban Reinculus" bandwagon, since its really a matter of stall necessarily needing to adapt to the metagame. While its much rarer or less feasible to run a hardcore stall team as it once was in the past a different sort of stall has developed one that tends towards more balance (especially since it needs to adapt to the metagame).
Novelty is probably a factor I think but I think more than novelty it does have to do with the fact that the new toys the dragons you mentioned gained are actually very beneficial for them. Kyurem at the top of my head is a great sub-roost pressure staller, course it'll need support but that should be easy enough it certainly has bulk and its weaknesses are pretty easy to support. While Hydregion is harder to wear out thanks to roost and has gained more coverage moves that can be very punishing to its switch ins. Haxorus was already discussed in much better detail in the previous pages again its coverage moves made it far more difficult to check.
Use SubCM. Seriously, it's really powerful, and it loves setting up on politoed and ninetales.
Latias @ Leftovers
252 HP, 4 Sp Atk, 252 Spe
timid
-Dragon pulse
-Substitute
-Calm mind
-Recover
Use it as a sweeper. It can set up on almost any special based pokemon.
As for stall, I don't know about you but I've been really successful with it, reaching #87 on the PS ladder. Amoongbro is a very effective strategy, and paired with ferrocent you've got a really effective core. Then just add an espeon counter and a sponge (such as Blissey, or skarm, or both) and you've got a working team. Who needs sweepers when you can just sit back and make your opponent ragequit.
defensive politoed can simply perish song against latias, and if it's lucky it can get it with toxic on a switch.
well yeah, but you probably wouldn't be setting up on a politoed if you've already scouted its move set and its obviously a defensive variant.
Lol, i think the cold truth is people are too lazy to use stall. Stall is still effective, but takes more effort+ more time. One of the most used pokes is gliscor, and he can run stall (while being a stall breaker sometimes.)
One of the most effective stall strategies right now is parafusion and attract+toxic. These sets are really annoying, and jirachi is one of the most popular pokemon who runs an offensive while stalling set.
This all being said, the new coverage moves and power creep can really take defensive pokemon by surprise. It's simply because stall needs to be played more carefully that it is underrated; offensive teams need to simply worry about firing off the correct moves rather than worrying about if a move is going to do too much.
One of the most effective stall strategies right now is parafusion and attract+toxic. These sets are really annoying, and jirachi is one of the most popular pokemon who runs an offensive while stalling set.
This all being said, the new coverage moves and power creep can really take defensive pokemon by surprise. It's simply because stall needs to be played more carefully that it is underrated; offensive teams need to simply worry about firing off the correct moves rather than worrying about if a move is going to do too much.
Speaking of attract as a stall strategy, I've been using one of the most annoying pokes ever in UU with a lot of success:
Whimsicott (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Flash
- Attract
This thing is so annoying. With any type of hazards up, the opponent's pokes are going to be taking a lot of damage switching in and out. If they don't have a grass poke, or most of the pokes are male, it's almost gg...Had toxic on it instead of flash, but as most pokes I've come up against in UU are not grass/magic guard/magic bounce, it's not much of a problem draining a ton of HP, even if the opposing poke is female or genderless. Not sure how it would do in OU with priority mamo or tornados-T u-turning everywhere, but in UU, this thing is fantastic for stall.
I don't know, I feel stall has gone down a lot in Gen 5.
There are way too many powerhouses, too many strong Draco Meteors, U-Turns, and Pursuits.
There are way too many powerhouses, too many strong Draco Meteors, U-Turns, and Pursuits.
i'm a big fan of latias personally. just for the fact that it's a bulky levitating dragon it already has a ton of utility. the other levitating dragons are all too aggressive (latios, hydreigon, and flygon) and lack latias's great bulk, or its speed which is very solid by OU standards compared to many other dragons. i'm not much for subcm sets tbh, because i feel like too many moves are focused on sweeping and that makes it harder to pivot throughout the early game. granted, latias is without a doubt one of the best subCMers in existence, but that set's just not my style. i much prefer to use latias as a pivot with all those great dragon resistances that i can abuse.
as an aside with regards to politoed, you can definitely set up on most nonspecs variants; the ice beams don't hit you hard enough so you can start cming. 252+ ice beam hits you for min 40% so you can always take at least two hits unless you switched into the first one (in which case it's your responsibility to lure out one of toed's other moves, all of which latias will chuckle at). take the first hit (max 46%) and cm, and now politoed doesn't stand a great chance of killing you in another two ice beams (at +1 you take max 31% and you've got lefties recovery). you can start recover+cming your way to wreaking havoc which will definitely force toed out and can possibly end the game on the spot. ofc the greater concern is with being encored/perishsonged/toxic'd, all of which will usually force you out immediately, but usually if toed is carrying lefties it'll have at least one support move so it's hardly an impossibility to scout.
i tend to lean towards cm+reflect/roar when i run latias. you don't have substitute for setting up but you can still do so, and until then cm is just for abusing free turns unless you plan on going for the sweep. in addition if you get enough cms from free turns you can become a real challenge to take down. reflect/roar on the other hand have plenty of utility in the early and mid game compared to substitute, which i don't really like using if i expect to be forced out soon (i know it has plenty of utility even in those situations, i just don't really like it). then i run enough speed to outrun jolly terrakion (i don't see much benefit in running max speed; the only thing you outrun is HP fire lati@s in that case. i can beat espeon just by spamming attacks or cming up, and statistically i'll lose to gengar whose shadow ball 2hkos me slightly more often more than my dragon pulse 2hkos it; those are the only other 110s that matter. granted, you need a whopping 240 speed to outrun terrakion, so it's not like the extra 16 EVs are gonna make much difference anywhere else). right now i prefer reflect because of all the uturns flying around; even thundy-t's uturn hits latias for around 30% which admittedly does sting. moreover reflect can support your teammates if you're against something latias can't wall (ie if you're expecting a switch to a physical attacker who outspeeds you, the obvious move is to reflect on the switch and exit to a bulkier mon next turn). if you're going full stall roar is usually a worthy alternative, but i don't tend to go all the way into full stall
if you try to run stuff like specs latias or recover+3 attacks, you're straight up outclassed by latios who has plenty more power than you and the same speed tier. even cm+recover+2 attacks is done better by latios imo. it's for that reason that i don't waste my time on pure offensive sets; latias sucks at all of them compared to latios who has more immediate power and has an easier time forcing things out by virtue of offensive power. moreover those sets tend to ignore the real appeal of latias, which is its fabulous special defense. i personally see 4 viable moves for latias, besides dragon pulse and recover which you should basically always be running: substitute (which tends to be run alongside cm for obvious reasons), calm mind, roar and reflect. there are a few others but those tend to be the most useful options, unless you're aiming for something a bit more niche like dual screens. wish exists but i'm not into it on latias because its base HP has never really impressed me for the job; gimme blissey or vap any day. i find that it's generally a mistake to run two attacks on latias because the third support move is so useful, with the exception of psyshock which lets you win calm mind wars, notably against keldeo. if you start running stuff like hp fire + cm then suddenly latios starts outclassing you again because its power is higher and it has an easier time threatening stuff out.
anyway latias's issue is and always has been the variety of mons that counter it - strong pursuits, bulky steels that can set up, strong u-turns - but that's what teammates are for. when i use latias it's not about setting up or doing damage. it's about abusing dragon-type resistances (plus a fighting resistance and an immunity to ground) to outplay your opponent and win the pivoting game, and maybe sneak in a sweep at the end. many things counter you, but you counter many things as well, and as so many analyses say, it's all about playing to your strengths
as an aside with regards to politoed, you can definitely set up on most nonspecs variants; the ice beams don't hit you hard enough so you can start cming. 252+ ice beam hits you for min 40% so you can always take at least two hits unless you switched into the first one (in which case it's your responsibility to lure out one of toed's other moves, all of which latias will chuckle at). take the first hit (max 46%) and cm, and now politoed doesn't stand a great chance of killing you in another two ice beams (at +1 you take max 31% and you've got lefties recovery). you can start recover+cming your way to wreaking havoc which will definitely force toed out and can possibly end the game on the spot. ofc the greater concern is with being encored/perishsonged/toxic'd, all of which will usually force you out immediately, but usually if toed is carrying lefties it'll have at least one support move so it's hardly an impossibility to scout.
i tend to lean towards cm+reflect/roar when i run latias. you don't have substitute for setting up but you can still do so, and until then cm is just for abusing free turns unless you plan on going for the sweep. in addition if you get enough cms from free turns you can become a real challenge to take down. reflect/roar on the other hand have plenty of utility in the early and mid game compared to substitute, which i don't really like using if i expect to be forced out soon (i know it has plenty of utility even in those situations, i just don't really like it). then i run enough speed to outrun jolly terrakion (i don't see much benefit in running max speed; the only thing you outrun is HP fire lati@s in that case. i can beat espeon just by spamming attacks or cming up, and statistically i'll lose to gengar whose shadow ball 2hkos me slightly more often more than my dragon pulse 2hkos it; those are the only other 110s that matter. granted, you need a whopping 240 speed to outrun terrakion, so it's not like the extra 16 EVs are gonna make much difference anywhere else). right now i prefer reflect because of all the uturns flying around; even thundy-t's uturn hits latias for around 30% which admittedly does sting. moreover reflect can support your teammates if you're against something latias can't wall (ie if you're expecting a switch to a physical attacker who outspeeds you, the obvious move is to reflect on the switch and exit to a bulkier mon next turn). if you're going full stall roar is usually a worthy alternative, but i don't tend to go all the way into full stall
if you try to run stuff like specs latias or recover+3 attacks, you're straight up outclassed by latios who has plenty more power than you and the same speed tier. even cm+recover+2 attacks is done better by latios imo. it's for that reason that i don't waste my time on pure offensive sets; latias sucks at all of them compared to latios who has more immediate power and has an easier time forcing things out by virtue of offensive power. moreover those sets tend to ignore the real appeal of latias, which is its fabulous special defense. i personally see 4 viable moves for latias, besides dragon pulse and recover which you should basically always be running: substitute (which tends to be run alongside cm for obvious reasons), calm mind, roar and reflect. there are a few others but those tend to be the most useful options, unless you're aiming for something a bit more niche like dual screens. wish exists but i'm not into it on latias because its base HP has never really impressed me for the job; gimme blissey or vap any day. i find that it's generally a mistake to run two attacks on latias because the third support move is so useful, with the exception of psyshock which lets you win calm mind wars, notably against keldeo. if you start running stuff like hp fire + cm then suddenly latios starts outclassing you again because its power is higher and it has an easier time threatening stuff out.
anyway latias's issue is and always has been the variety of mons that counter it - strong pursuits, bulky steels that can set up, strong u-turns - but that's what teammates are for. when i use latias it's not about setting up or doing damage. it's about abusing dragon-type resistances (plus a fighting resistance and an immunity to ground) to outplay your opponent and win the pivoting game, and maybe sneak in a sweep at the end. many things counter you, but you counter many things as well, and as so many analyses say, it's all about playing to your strengths
Dragonite love anyone?
People were talking about Techniloom earlier...
Dragonite with Lum Berry can pick off Techniloom with Extremespeed while taking pretty much nothing from Mach Punch, Low Sweep and Bullet Seed and avoiding the sleep from Spore.
Also, does anyone else think that Dragonite is a great check/counter for a lot of the pokemon that have been boosted by rain?
With Wish support (or Rapid Spin Support but especially wish support), it's relatively easy to keep Dragonite at full health, keeping Multiscale intact. Even without multiscale, Dragonite can switch a field with Stealth Rocks up into boosted attacks of one of the many types he resists and survive, only to have his health replenished.
I use Chansey or Jirachi to Wish pass as I switch in my Offensive DDance + Lum Berry Dragonite and proceed to set up on opponents. There aren't many things that can completely counter it (besides Ferrothorn in the rain, but Dragonite has Superpower now).
When you have Multiscale up, it's a great against Keldeo, Thundurus-T, Tornadus-T and other rain abusers.
People were talking about Techniloom earlier...
Dragonite with Lum Berry can pick off Techniloom with Extremespeed while taking pretty much nothing from Mach Punch, Low Sweep and Bullet Seed and avoiding the sleep from Spore.
Also, does anyone else think that Dragonite is a great check/counter for a lot of the pokemon that have been boosted by rain?
With Wish support (or Rapid Spin Support but especially wish support), it's relatively easy to keep Dragonite at full health, keeping Multiscale intact. Even without multiscale, Dragonite can switch a field with Stealth Rocks up into boosted attacks of one of the many types he resists and survive, only to have his health replenished.
I use Chansey or Jirachi to Wish pass as I switch in my Offensive DDance + Lum Berry Dragonite and proceed to set up on opponents. There aren't many things that can completely counter it (besides Ferrothorn in the rain, but Dragonite has Superpower now).
When you have Multiscale up, it's a great against Keldeo, Thundurus-T, Tornadus-T and other rain abusers.
Reducing your opponent's accuracy is allowed, as they can just switch out and remove the debuff.
problem is that so many of those mons can run ice coverage and dragonite only checks them if it comes in with scales intact. then many mons outspeed it as well so you have to come in after something dies if you want to be sure of survival (adamant nite is outsped by +nature base 70s and up. that's a LOT of pokemon). if you're going to come in after something dies, there are other mons that do a more reliable job of revenging, like mamoswine, because they hit harder on the first turn in and have useful typing advantages *cough stab ice shard* (granted, dragonite can do other jobs besides revenge killing).
252 LO tornadus-t's hurricane does min 70% to 0/0 for example. even with scales you're not gonna have a fun time taking two of those (even if you have lefties you'll probably die to two of them) and your unboosted, non-LO outrage is only a 30% OHKO, at which point you lock yourself in to be countered by the bulky steel that plans to follow up. thundy-t's hp ice is similar, easy ohko on 0/0 if your scales are broken and you're not about to outrun it. breloom is a mon that you can counter since two adamant exspeeds will often kill it and it deals lol 20% to you.
EDIT: to be more specific, i was referring to jolly breloom's LO mach punch or average-power bulletseed vs 0/0 dragonite without scales. i tend to forget about breloom's stone edge and low sweep >_>
It's only me or there are many people using Electivire on OU??? Electivire is RU and I didn't expect to see him so often, maybe this is because of the new tutor moves from B2W2, or because of Thundurus-T? Because well, Electivire isn't too threathening without a boost on Speed even with that impressive coverage. I am still confused wondering why Electivire's usage has risen.
Lightningrod zapdos will be amazing, especially good at beating thundurus. It's bulky enough to take an HP ice and hit back.