Having play tested Garchomp, I can honestly say that he isn't that big a problem. While Garchomp does have good defenses, he isn't going to be taking many hits before he's down. He also has the common flaw of locking himself into a strong stab or settling for a weaker one, both of which are easily revenge killed by Ice Shard, Bullet Punch, etc. Scald also hurts garchomp. Burning Garchomp usually makes him useless or have to rely on an unaccurate, unstab Fire Blast to hurt things. With this in mind, I think Garchomp should be allowed to reenter OU as long as sand veil is officially banned from all tiers.
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Garchomp and Sand Veil Discussion
- Thread starter Kevin Garrett
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Been playing on the suspect ladder a lot, managed to stay within the top 10 on the ladder for the last few days. I've been using my current OU B2W2 team as an experiment - didn't change anything to account for Garchomp's presence.
Overall, Garchomp seems pretty underwhelming - without Sand Veil, I basically deal with it in the same way as I deal with other dragons (depending on the set: priority; Latios; scarf Genesect; sacrifice a pokémon then trap on Outrage with HP Ice Magnezone; use Sturdy Donphan (if really desperate).
Overall, Garchomp seems pretty underwhelming - without Sand Veil, I basically deal with it in the same way as I deal with other dragons (depending on the set: priority; Latios; scarf Genesect; sacrifice a pokémon then trap on Outrage with HP Ice Magnezone; use Sturdy Donphan (if really desperate).
I've been having similar experiences with bringing in my BW2 team unchanged and not having any trouble dealing with Garchomp. It helps that I already had a Scarf Genesect, but I haven't found myself playing differently at all. When I see a Garchomp on my opponent's team, it's usually one of the things I find myself least concerned about, certainly less than most other common dragons.
This is definitely not just a result of the loss of Sand Veil. It's simply a matter of Garchomp not being broken. Not anymore, anyway.
Garchomp will be usefull as a scarfer since it outspeeds Landorus and Genesect, not a bad thing at all. Imo, Garchomp without Sand Veil will stay a great pokemon but won't be that monster it was in the past. A lot of new pokemon are more threatening and those pokes can "easily" kill Garchomp (Keldeo, Genesect, Tornadus-T, ScarfThundu-T, Ferrothorn, etc etc).
Garchomp's proven to be more than managable under most circumstances. Where as in previous stages of the metagame when Sand Veil was legal, you were not always guaranteed to successful revenge kill Garchomp due to untimely, triggered Sand Veil effects. We may have to discover which set Garchomp is utilizing, but that goes without saying for any Pokemon whose stats and movepool project with its competitive prowess for being a top tier threat.
As versatile and unpredictable as its moveset may be, you know that if you play correctly, you are assured to faint Garchomp efficiently without fail. Perhaps the dominating factor when determining where Garchomp recides in this metagame, where admittedly he does not stand-out as a Pokemon who's unplayable/broken currently; however, being an individual suspect, may have an adverse impact on just how true his power is when the metagame settles down.
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As versatile and unpredictable as its moveset may be, you know that if you play correctly, you are assured to faint Garchomp efficiently without fail. Perhaps the dominating factor when determining where Garchomp recides in this metagame, where admittedly he does not stand-out as a Pokemon who's unplayable/broken currently; however, being an individual suspect, may have an adverse impact on just how true his power is when the metagame settles down.
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I am near the top 10 of the ladder and I'm thinking to myself "why am I still using Chomp"? Sub Sding was only good in theory, and the Scarf set, albiet better isn't netting me these great kills I was expecting for. I should try something new with it..
Edit: As long as you send a faster scarfer or use a priority ice shard (or any other priority depending on his remaining health) guessing his set wouldn't be that big of a deal.
Edit: As long as you send a faster scarfer or use a priority ice shard (or any other priority depending on his remaining health) guessing his set wouldn't be that big of a deal.
A lot of us over at GameFAQs are on the fence about this: some of us want our old sweeper brought back to OU, some of us want him to stay where he is with the other high and mighty legends too broken for any lower tier. But I have one thing to ask (I apologize in advance if it's been brought up before): if y'all were to ban SV Garchomp, wouldn't that be the start of a slippery slope? Pretty soon, you'd see people demanding Blaze-iken in the lower tiers, then non-Prankster Thundurus, then non-Sand Rush Excadrill, and people would even possibly demanding you dig into the lower tiers for things like non-DW Alakazam, non-DW Dragonite, etc., and they'd call foul and roar unfair if y'all said no way jose. (Surprising as it may be, there would still be people demanding 'Nite and 'Zam in the lower tiers with their lackluster abilities; there's always 1 or 2 vocal minority groups that will.) What I'm wondering is what your response to that would be. Would you be willing to go through hundreds of pokemon to do this, would you just leave it at Garchomp despite the cries of it being unfair, or would you just bring 'Chomp in his entirety back to OU, sending it back to Ubers if enough people demand it, or what?
![GH[O]ST](/forums/data/avatars/m/69/69331.jpg?1413405016){kind=avatar}
lol monferno stop making gamefaqs look worse than it already does.
Garchomp would be a lot more reasonable in OU without Sand Veil (still a top pokemon though). It has destructive power similar to that of Terrakion. It trades the speed of Terrakion for much better durability.
Sand Veil is what made it Uber - it made a top-tier killing machine straight up broken. It is the straw that broke the camel's back, if you will.
Smogon should just start banning certain Abilities on certain Pokemon. Before everyone starts spamming “complex bans”, allow me to explain.
Smogon’s objective is to create a balanced and rich metagame, that is, a metagame with as many viable options as possible and no overcentralization. Smogon does this by imposing restrictions on what can and cannot be used (this is how we end up with ban lists and clauses). Since Smogon is a fan-made entity run by an entire community, there are various laws in place to make sure the governance of the metagame stays as objective and systematic as possible. Smogon’s rule against complex banning is one such law. Its sole purpose is to establish consistency of ruleset by preventing the establishment of any precedence of arbitrary and unmethodical judgment regarding what can and cannot be banned.
However, in the face of the continuous addition of Abilities to Pokemon, this policy on complex banning has become archaic and, as such, has come into conflict with one of Smogon’s main tenets – banning of as few things as possible. Because of Smogon’s current policy on complex banning, Pokemon that are obviously not broken, such as Speed Boost Blaziken, Defiance Thunderus, and Mould Breaker Excadrill, are unable to be used. Additionally, there is the issue of the topic – banning Sand Veil under the Evasion Clause. It is arguable that certain Pokemon with the Ability, Sand Veil, are not broken with Sand Veil. However, this ban could go into effect under the pretense of minimizing luck in the metagame. This is a whole ‘nother can of worms though (and it's hard to argue that things like Sand Veil Cacturne and Sandslash should be banned).
I think the line needs to be redrawn regarding complex bans. Two Pokemon with the same Pokedex number and different Abilities have the potential to be two vastly different units with respect to competitive capabilities (as we can see with Blaziken, Breloom, Chandelure, Excadrill, Serperior, and many others).
I propose the following guideline as a way to ban Abilities while avoiding any potential messy precedents set by implementing what is currently considered complex banning:
Any inborn, defining, and permanent trait of a Pokemon can be banned. This will allow Abilities to be banned on specific Pokemon.
- “Inborn” refers to any aspect of the trait that a Pokemon is born with. Pokemon are hatched with Abilities. The inborn aspect prevents the banning of things such as select moves, EV spreads, and/or items on any given Pokemon (e.g., specific combinations, such as Heatran and Balloon, Blissey and 252 HP EVs, or Salamence and Outrage, cannot be banned)
- “Defining” refers to any aspect of the trait that defines a Pokemon species. Abilities help define species due to the fact that the Ability a Pokemon can have depends on its species. The defining aspect prevents the banning of things such as specific Natures, EV spreads, and/or IVs on any given Pokemon (e.g., specific combinations, such as Tornadus and Timid, Latios and 252 S.Atk EVs, or Tornadus and a Speed IV of 31, cannot be banned)
- “Permanent” refers to any aspect of the trait which cannot be altered. The Abilities of Pokemon cannot be altered.
When the letter of the law comes to odds with the spirit of the law, that law is no longer completely suitable or effective.
I agree with this. I am currently in the top 10 of the ladder and I've actually found myself going back to my regular OU team and have not had any trouble dealing with opposing land sharks. I've tried the Bulky SR Chomp, ScarfChomp, and Yache SD Chomp. The only set that has proved remotely effective was Yache SD and even then, Chomp really has issues with being revenged killed due to its (now subpar) speed. It seems that while Chomp is still a great Pokemon in its own right, I'm having trouble finding a niche for it. Like X5Dragon, I'm going to have to try to get creative with o' Chompy...
Also, in all of my battles, Garchomp has not played a big roll in my wins or my loses. There have been many battles where I never even sent out Garchomp at all. Overall in my opinion without Sand Veil, Garchomp is totally manageable and not overpowered in any way shape or form (at least for now). To be honest I didn't even think Garchomp was overpowered when it was banned the first time around in BW. :/
Garchomp may trade the speed of terrakion for durability, but what exactly does it lose in terms of speed? What lies in that range? I'll tell you: Liepard, scyther, electabuzz, emolga, kadabra, manectric, lopunny, mismagius and others, while it still manages to outspeed the therians, landorus, and all the base 100s. So I view the trade of those 6 points in speed for durability as something that makes it far, far better than terrakion.
Have you even played on the suspect test ladder? Garchomp has been consistently easy to take down. Scarf variants are beaten by Ice Shard users, Scarf Latios, Scarf Keldeo in rain, Bronzong, etc. Yache Berry variants are the only remotely threatening ones, but they must run either a Hasty nature or lower their Defense IVs to 11 (with the leftover 4 EVs in Special Defense) in order to always avoid the OHKO from Genesect's Ice Beam, which really subtracts from its overall bulk. Choice Band Weavile OHKOes Garchomp with Ice Punch through Yache Berry, and without a Choice Scarf it's even more vulnerable to Latios and Latias and becomes vulnerable to Choice Band Terrakion. Also, without Sand Veil, you can now actually hit Will-O-Wisp against it. Cloyster also pretty much destroys Garchomp. Scarf Garchomp is essentially just a slightly faster Scarf Landorus with Dragon STAB. In several of my battles, I find myself just not using Garchomp at all. I find myself doing far more work with Terrakion, Heatran, and even Weavile.
That wasn't my point at all. I haven't played on the ladder at all, but I was just making the point that Terrakion is not better than garchomp just because it has more speed. That speed is, aside from tying the other base 108s, useless. However, garchomp can make much better use of the bulk it has.
Well, after some testing with Garchomp (and some pretty poorly made teams), there were a few things I noticed.
First off, Garchomp is not broken. It can be annoying at times, and if allowed to set up, it can wreck teams, but with proper support it can be handled. A faster pokemon with Ice Beam (well, any good Ice attack really) or a powerful Dragon type move can easily take it down, and it just so happens that those tend to be common.
Now while it can be easy to take down, Garchomp can be a very dangerous threat if given the chance to set up. As a matter of fact, walls tend to not bother Garchomp after a Swords Dance boost, as between a moveset of Dragon Claw, Earthquake, and Fire Fang it can rip through most of the common walls. Skarmory and Bronzong probably have the best chance against it, since Skarmory can take a Fire Fang and Whirlwind Garchomp, and Bronzong can retaliate with a powerful Gyro Ball.
Really, what bothers Garchomp most is faster pokemon. If those are removed, Garchomp can easily rip through teams.
Oh, and do keep in mind I'm talking about the Swords Dance set here. The Choice Scarf set ignores a lot of what I just said.
First off, Garchomp is not broken. It can be annoying at times, and if allowed to set up, it can wreck teams, but with proper support it can be handled. A faster pokemon with Ice Beam (well, any good Ice attack really) or a powerful Dragon type move can easily take it down, and it just so happens that those tend to be common.
Now while it can be easy to take down, Garchomp can be a very dangerous threat if given the chance to set up. As a matter of fact, walls tend to not bother Garchomp after a Swords Dance boost, as between a moveset of Dragon Claw, Earthquake, and Fire Fang it can rip through most of the common walls. Skarmory and Bronzong probably have the best chance against it, since Skarmory can take a Fire Fang and Whirlwind Garchomp, and Bronzong can retaliate with a powerful Gyro Ball.
Really, what bothers Garchomp most is faster pokemon. If those are removed, Garchomp can easily rip through teams.
Oh, and do keep in mind I'm talking about the Swords Dance set here. The Choice Scarf set ignores a lot of what I just said.
monferno, bear in mind that the garchomp ban as it is right now is not complex. it's a combination of two standard pieces of smogon policy: one, garchomp was removed from the banlist for OU (ie ubers) and allowed back into the tier, and two, sand veil was banned the same way moody is banned. the combination of garchomp+sand veil, which would typically be deemed a complex ban, was not affected. rather, ALL sand veil is banned, including guys like gliscor, donphan, sandslash and cacturne. there has been plenty of argument before and in this very thread about whether or not all uses of sand veil deserve to be banned, in which case the ban could evolve into a complex one, but for now that is not an issue.
moreover the idea of allowing dnite or alakazam in lower tiers, minus their upgraded abilities (magic guard / multiscale) is patently ridiculous because neither dnite nor alakazam are banned from UU; otherwise they'd be BL. the reason they're in OU is because of usage, and no amount of arguing over smogon ban policy will change the fact that they're used enough in OU to be deemed OU, therefore illegal in UU or below. there's no room for discussion on this one. you can't "push" a mon down a tier and never has this been suggested by smogon policy leaders; you can only remove it from a banlist and let usage determine where it ends up. that's where both alakazam and dnite are right now: they're not banned, but usage has put them smack in the middle of OU, and that's where they'll stay.
finally bear in mind that smogon utterly does not give a <expletive> about the opinion of other sites. tiering on smogon has never been concerned with the attitudes of gamefaqs, PO, serebii, etc. smogon is smogon and no amount of complaining from third parties will affect the ban policy.
moreover the idea of allowing dnite or alakazam in lower tiers, minus their upgraded abilities (magic guard / multiscale) is patently ridiculous because neither dnite nor alakazam are banned from UU; otherwise they'd be BL. the reason they're in OU is because of usage, and no amount of arguing over smogon ban policy will change the fact that they're used enough in OU to be deemed OU, therefore illegal in UU or below. there's no room for discussion on this one. you can't "push" a mon down a tier and never has this been suggested by smogon policy leaders; you can only remove it from a banlist and let usage determine where it ends up. that's where both alakazam and dnite are right now: they're not banned, but usage has put them smack in the middle of OU, and that's where they'll stay.
finally bear in mind that smogon utterly does not give a <expletive> about the opinion of other sites. tiering on smogon has never been concerned with the attitudes of gamefaqs, PO, serebii, etc. smogon is smogon and no amount of complaining from third parties will affect the ban policy.
I'm kind of agreeing with this. Maybe it's the team I was using it on, but no matter what set I tried with Garchomp (Sub+3 Attacks, Band, SubSD) I didn't find it to be able to get a lot of kills or be able to shift the game into my favor. Ironically enough, I ended up replacing it with something else and was happier with the team.
Only set I haven't tried is the Scarf set, but even then, I'm not sure how that would fit onto any team with Thundurus-T and Keldeo available to rain teams, Landorus-I and Terrakion available to Sand teams (the latter of which can also be used on weatherless teams along with Thundurus-T and Salamence), and Infernape and Genesect for Sun teams, all of which are better on average in these respective team archetypes imo. Not only that, but Garchomp also has competition from its fellow Dragons when trying to find a team slot. Haxorus generally does the Band better, Scarf is generally done better by Salamence, Dragonite has a better boosting move to use and priority to take out faster threats should it choose to run it. In short, life is difficult for Garchomp right now as it faces serious competition in every role and it can't just rely on Sand Veil misses to hax its way to victory. The metagame is much faster than in DP and even in BW1 where Keldeo, Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, and Genesect weren't around to outrun any non-Scarf Garchomp (latter 2 need a Scarf of their own, but both commonly have one in the first place)
Anyone with a lot of lung capacity and an awesome voice wanna match up this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2IMtHu2RsY
With these lyrics I wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2IMtHu2RsY
With these lyrics I wrote:
It just occurred to me
My ladder rank is falling again and again
I’m getting swept by Garchomp every single time…
I never will give up
As I polish up my drizzle team
But somehow I still can't fix my Garchomp weak…
In a metagame ruled by rain,
Garchomp’s bulk and speed shouldn’t be all that great
But every time, somehow, every time somehow
Every time I miss. (alternatively: "Every time he crits!")
I can’t defeat Garchomp
No matter how many steels I bring I just get swept in the end
And even though, I can switch my Latios in
He just goes to Tyranitar and Pursuits me again.
I predict as hard as I can,
But I couldn’t stop his Outrage in the end game again.
I’ll try again, of course, but this is my plan,
I’ll keep my Genosect saved in reserve just as long as I can…
It just occurred to me
That his Garchomp’s equipped with a Yache
And even if I use Ice Beam he will definitely survive…
I never will give up
Blasting Garchomp with the Ice Beam
But he lives and busts out the mighty Fire Fang…
If I could use Weavile I’d be fine
It would at least give me the chance to revenge his Garchomp but
Every time somehow, every time somehow
He’s got a Scizor
I can’t defeat Scizor
No matter how I try U-turn kills my Weavile or builds momentum again.
And even though, I can bring my Heatran in,
It just lets him set up Garchomp’s Swords Dance again!
I predict as hard as I can,
But against Scizor’s U-turn it was useless again,
I’ll try again, of course, but this is my plan
I gotta make room on my team to add a scarf ‘zone…
In a metagame ruled by rain,
Garchomp’s bulk and speed shouldn’t be all that great
But every time, somehow, every time somehow
Every time I miss.
I can’t defeat Garchomp
No matter how many steels I bring I just get swept in the end
And even though, I can switch my Latios in
He just goes to Tyranitar and Pursuits me again.
I predict as hard as I can,
But I couldn’t stop his Outrage in the end game again.
I’ll try again, of course, but this is my plan,
I’ll keep my Ditto saved in reserve just as long as I can…
..I can't beat Garchomp...
...He won the Speed tie with Scarf...
My ladder rank is falling again and again
I’m getting swept by Garchomp every single time…
I never will give up
As I polish up my drizzle team
But somehow I still can't fix my Garchomp weak…
In a metagame ruled by rain,
Garchomp’s bulk and speed shouldn’t be all that great
But every time, somehow, every time somehow
Every time I miss. (alternatively: "Every time he crits!")
I can’t defeat Garchomp
No matter how many steels I bring I just get swept in the end
And even though, I can switch my Latios in
He just goes to Tyranitar and Pursuits me again.
I predict as hard as I can,
But I couldn’t stop his Outrage in the end game again.
I’ll try again, of course, but this is my plan,
I’ll keep my Genosect saved in reserve just as long as I can…
It just occurred to me
That his Garchomp’s equipped with a Yache
And even if I use Ice Beam he will definitely survive…
I never will give up
Blasting Garchomp with the Ice Beam
But he lives and busts out the mighty Fire Fang…
If I could use Weavile I’d be fine
It would at least give me the chance to revenge his Garchomp but
Every time somehow, every time somehow
He’s got a Scizor
I can’t defeat Scizor
No matter how I try U-turn kills my Weavile or builds momentum again.
And even though, I can bring my Heatran in,
It just lets him set up Garchomp’s Swords Dance again!
I predict as hard as I can,
But against Scizor’s U-turn it was useless again,
I’ll try again, of course, but this is my plan
I gotta make room on my team to add a scarf ‘zone…
In a metagame ruled by rain,
Garchomp’s bulk and speed shouldn’t be all that great
But every time, somehow, every time somehow
Every time I miss.
I can’t defeat Garchomp
No matter how many steels I bring I just get swept in the end
And even though, I can switch my Latios in
He just goes to Tyranitar and Pursuits me again.
I predict as hard as I can,
But I couldn’t stop his Outrage in the end game again.
I’ll try again, of course, but this is my plan,
I’ll keep my Ditto saved in reserve just as long as I can…
..I can't beat Garchomp...
...He won the Speed tie with Scarf...
@ people arguing about slippery slope stuff: You need to look at this as a Sand Veil ban primarily and then a Garchomp unban on top of that. As far as I'm aware, Sand Veil isn't being banned purely because people want Garchomp back, its being banned because people have been complaining about Sand Veil Gliscor for ages now (with good reason), and its widely viewed as an uncompetitive element of the game. Unbanning Garchomp on top of that is the next logical step, as SubSD was arguably the set that pushed it over the edge in early BW - even then people were arguing that Sand Veil was the broken factor. We are not unbanning Garchomp, and banning Sand Veil so that we can have it back in OU. We are banning Sand Veil because it is uncompetitive, and unbanning Garchomp because theres very little reason not to give it a test with Rough Skin.
So there is no slippery slope. Speed Boost as itself isn't broken, so we likely won't be seeing Blaze Blaziken making its way out of Ubers. Prankster as itself isn't broken, so we likely won't be seeing Defiant Thundurus dropping from Ubers. These are Pokemon + ability combinations; the current suspect test is the banning of an entire ability, and unbanning Garchomp because its widely realized that with Sand Veil banned it deserves a re-test.
Anyway, I've been hovering pretty high on the ladder, generally staying between #5 and #15 playing a couple of battles a day. I'm running a pretty cool "hail" balance team with Expert Belt Abomasnow, Choice Band Garchomp, Bronzong, Scarf Gothitelle, Air Balloon Heatran and Toxic Tentacruel. Mainly running Abomasnow for STAB Ice Shard and weather control against Rain in particular. However its actually really cool against Sun too, acting as a great pivot to get Gothitelle in on Venusaur or something, and getting rid of Sun so Goth can outspeed and KO it with Psyshock. Bronzong is the best defensive Steel-type around imo, countering arguably the 2 biggest and most prominent threats - Garchomp and Tornadus-T. Scarf Gothitelle patches up weaknesses to practically everything. Tentacruel for Rapid Spin, and cripples Volcarona with Toxic. Heatran for a little extra sun insurance and because Genesect is a dick.
CBchomp is by far the best set in my opinion. Against sun you can pretty much just lead with this and very easily get 2/3 KOs a game thanks to its raw power and Fire-type resistance. Immunity to paralysis is also sweet, meaning that Garchomp can switch-in on a ton of things Terrakion and other Choice Banders can only dream of. Rough Skin has actually proved incredibly useful against both Offensive and Defensive threats alike. Rough Skin activating on Brave Bird and Gyro Ball makes it way easier for Garchomp to bypass Skarmory and Bronzong (why are some people not using HP Ice on this?).
Anyway, tl;dr, cool meta lets make this official!
So there is no slippery slope. Speed Boost as itself isn't broken, so we likely won't be seeing Blaze Blaziken making its way out of Ubers. Prankster as itself isn't broken, so we likely won't be seeing Defiant Thundurus dropping from Ubers. These are Pokemon + ability combinations; the current suspect test is the banning of an entire ability, and unbanning Garchomp because its widely realized that with Sand Veil banned it deserves a re-test.
Anyway, I've been hovering pretty high on the ladder, generally staying between #5 and #15 playing a couple of battles a day. I'm running a pretty cool "hail" balance team with Expert Belt Abomasnow, Choice Band Garchomp, Bronzong, Scarf Gothitelle, Air Balloon Heatran and Toxic Tentacruel. Mainly running Abomasnow for STAB Ice Shard and weather control against Rain in particular. However its actually really cool against Sun too, acting as a great pivot to get Gothitelle in on Venusaur or something, and getting rid of Sun so Goth can outspeed and KO it with Psyshock. Bronzong is the best defensive Steel-type around imo, countering arguably the 2 biggest and most prominent threats - Garchomp and Tornadus-T. Scarf Gothitelle patches up weaknesses to practically everything. Tentacruel for Rapid Spin, and cripples Volcarona with Toxic. Heatran for a little extra sun insurance and because Genesect is a dick.
CBchomp is by far the best set in my opinion. Against sun you can pretty much just lead with this and very easily get 2/3 KOs a game thanks to its raw power and Fire-type resistance. Immunity to paralysis is also sweet, meaning that Garchomp can switch-in on a ton of things Terrakion and other Choice Banders can only dream of. Rough Skin has actually proved incredibly useful against both Offensive and Defensive threats alike. Rough Skin activating on Brave Bird and Gyro Ball makes it way easier for Garchomp to bypass Skarmory and Bronzong (why are some people not using HP Ice on this?).
Anyway, tl;dr, cool meta lets make this official!
I agree with the part of Pokemon thing for sure, but Sand Veil IS broken. Evs. raising moves/items/abilities are broken, because if I choose, say, Surf on Keldeo instead of Hydro Pump, I'm trading power for less hax.
Just my opinion, though.
Sand veil sounds like it could be annoying and imo what OU does not need is a source of hax on a pokemon like garchomp. Wether or not it is broken with sand veil idk (sand isn't very popular now) but it does sound very annoying.
But, I haven't had much success on the ladder with chomp, whereas i got to 2nd and am hovering in the top 5 with a normal ou rain team, and chomp has never managed to do much on its own (not that it is bad but don't expect to see garchomp destroy whole teams on its own).
As a scarfer maybe it has some merits, but landorus has u-turn, which is really useful on many teams.
Chomp has good speed but so many things outspeed it it can't really sweep (scarf genesect, lati@s, keldeo, terrakion, virizion priority ice shards, random scarfers)
Banded chomp may be good, I haven't tried it or seen a lot of it though.
As to how chomp will affect the metagame when it becomes ou (imo it should) Hippowdon will rise as it can switch in to chomp as well as other physical attackers (although ttar can switch in to stuff like latios) and hippo has reliable recovery in slack off.
But, I haven't had much success on the ladder with chomp, whereas i got to 2nd and am hovering in the top 5 with a normal ou rain team, and chomp has never managed to do much on its own (not that it is bad but don't expect to see garchomp destroy whole teams on its own).
As a scarfer maybe it has some merits, but landorus has u-turn, which is really useful on many teams.
Chomp has good speed but so many things outspeed it it can't really sweep (scarf genesect, lati@s, keldeo, terrakion, virizion priority ice shards, random scarfers)
Banded chomp may be good, I haven't tried it or seen a lot of it though.
As to how chomp will affect the metagame when it becomes ou (imo it should) Hippowdon will rise as it can switch in to chomp as well as other physical attackers (although ttar can switch in to stuff like latios) and hippo has reliable recovery in slack off.
I'm agreeing with the general consensus here- Garchomp is way overrated. It reeally isn't all that powerful, and can be taken down pretty easily by a whole lot of pokemon. Yes, garchomp is good, he is very good- but he isn't devastating. Sceptile can kill it, but Sceptile can kill anything, because he's awesome.
In all seriousness, Garchomp should be unbanned due to having seriopus competition for a teamslot as well as the fact that he isn't too hard to handle without sand veil.
In all seriousness, Garchomp should be unbanned due to having seriopus competition for a teamslot as well as the fact that he isn't too hard to handle without sand veil.
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