Yes, it isn't GSC, but that doesn't mean those moves aren't viable. Toxic stalling is a strategy that still exists today. With trapping move, we can guarantee that a Pokemon will take much damage from toxic. Perish song can be used as an alternative strategy to do the same thing without damage.
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Trapping in BW2
- Thread starter peng
- Start date
Can we not shit up this thread with talk of Whirlpool of all things, please.
Also I'm not going to add Magma Storm Heatran to the OP. Its not a trapper in the sense that its being applied to in this thread, since it requires active use of Magma Storm. I may add Magma Storm Heatran + Dugtrio to the "Trapping Cores" section, but Magma Storm Heatran isn't a trapper in the same vein as Dugtrio, Gothitelle and Magnezone.
Also I'm not going to add Magma Storm Heatran to the OP. Its not a trapper in the sense that its being applied to in this thread, since it requires active use of Magma Storm. I may add Magma Storm Heatran + Dugtrio to the "Trapping Cores" section, but Magma Storm Heatran isn't a trapper in the same vein as Dugtrio, Gothitelle and Magnezone.
Generally Trapping moves don't work because the opponent usually switches in a Pokémon you don't want to trap(for instance, threatens your mon) and force it to switch, making it a wasted move.
Mean Look+Perish I think it is only viable on Murkrow or maybe Misdreavus/Mismagius, all of them in lower tiers, the rest of the mons that have it are too frail.
Also, don't talk about Mean Look or its clones+Baton Pass, since it is not Baton Passed anymore.
PenguinX I think you should mention Dugtrio is a great partner for Genesect because it defeats its main checks: Chansey/Blissey, Terrakion and of course, Heatran and set-up rocks for Volcarona(Volcarona without SR is a counter), I know you mention it below on GeneSun, but GeneTrio isn't exclusive to GeneSun.
Mean Look+Perish I think it is only viable on Murkrow or maybe Misdreavus/Mismagius, all of them in lower tiers, the rest of the mons that have it are too frail.
Also, don't talk about Mean Look or its clones+Baton Pass, since it is not Baton Passed anymore.
PenguinX I think you should mention Dugtrio is a great partner for Genesect because it defeats its main checks: Chansey/Blissey, Terrakion and of course, Heatran and set-up rocks for Volcarona(Volcarona without SR is a counter), I know you mention it below on GeneSun, but GeneTrio isn't exclusive to GeneSun.
For all of the time i've been playing Pokemon, I always hated the ScarfTyranitar, Magnezone, or Dugtrio people would carry on their team to eliminate certain threats or counters. But after awhile I started to appreciate it really, and now I actually enjoy using trapper aided teams to get a sweep. So far, my favorite combinations this Generation have been mostly listed in the post above, but I really appreciate one specific one the most. That one would have to be the combination of Garchomp + Breloom + Gothitelle which I am actually using on my current team. Garchomp and Breloom both love the death of the likes of Skarmory, and Breloom and Garchomp perform together as a potent and powerful offensive combo. I've taken this one step further by pairing it with Genesect, who works great with Garchomp, who gets a free switch into Heatran on the U-Turn.
Trapping I always viewed as more a skill than just a blatant strategy to pull off. As a smart opponent can evade your attempts to trap the main target. Typically i'll use double switching or pivoting to get whatever I need dead, and With Garchomp and Breloom, eventually the opponent will have to, or at least be pressurd to switch into their counter. Gothitelle can even run some different options than the standard like Signal Beam, which can be used well with Breloom to eliminate Celebi who is a decent counter to Offensive Breloom sets.
Trapping I always viewed as more a skill than just a blatant strategy to pull off. As a smart opponent can evade your attempts to trap the main target. Typically i'll use double switching or pivoting to get whatever I need dead, and With Garchomp and Breloom, eventually the opponent will have to, or at least be pressurd to switch into their counter. Gothitelle can even run some different options than the standard like Signal Beam, which can be used well with Breloom to eliminate Celebi who is a decent counter to Offensive Breloom sets.
I was going to save this idea but I'm too lazy to turn it into a perfect team.
Focus Sash with Memento Dugtrio
Sub CM Gothtielle
Sub Charge Beam Magnezone
Tickle Wobbuffet
Scarf Mence
Is the core.
The idea is:
Basically trap and kill stuff when opportunities present (with Wobb and Dugtrio) but otherwise get a Memento/ Tickle stuff so attacks are weak and can't break subs.
Set up a Sub and 6 CM's with Gothtielle and rape face. Or Sub Charge Magnezone on Jirachi/ Ferrothorn.
Anything that can contend with Scarf Mence is effectively gone by the late game and it just cleans with Outrage.
It's actually hilarious how many good teams have like no shot against it. Since they all use Scarfers that you can set up on. Sac something to the scarf, Memento it, Tickle it. 6 CM's gg.
Someone turn this into a great team. Ladder already sucks might as well make it worse to play against.
Focus Sash with Memento Dugtrio
Sub CM Gothtielle
Sub Charge Beam Magnezone
Tickle Wobbuffet
Scarf Mence
Is the core.
The idea is:
Basically trap and kill stuff when opportunities present (with Wobb and Dugtrio) but otherwise get a Memento/ Tickle stuff so attacks are weak and can't break subs.
Set up a Sub and 6 CM's with Gothtielle and rape face. Or Sub Charge Magnezone on Jirachi/ Ferrothorn.
Anything that can contend with Scarf Mence is effectively gone by the late game and it just cleans with Outrage.
It's actually hilarious how many good teams have like no shot against it. Since they all use Scarfers that you can set up on. Sac something to the scarf, Memento it, Tickle it. 6 CM's gg.
Someone turn this into a great team. Ladder already sucks might as well make it worse to play against.
The problem is really the combination of U-turn / Volt Switch and trapping. Back when people had to rely largely on prediction to use it properly it was at least possible to play around trappers without going to ridiculous lengths in teambuilding. There is practically no skill involved (or needed) in most situtations - either the opponent brings in an inferior switch which will put them at the disadvantage, or they lose a pokemon. It gets even worse with Tornadus because the list of viable things which can take it's Hurricane can be counted on one hand.
And lol at the above team. The only problem I can see is that the opponent will only have to sac one pokemon to Goth to beat it if he's using an offensive team, so you're more reliant on Mence as the main win condition. Imo the last member should just be Genesect.
And lol at the above team. The only problem I can see is that the opponent will only have to sac one pokemon to Goth to beat it if he's using an offensive team, so you're more reliant on Mence as the main win condition. Imo the last member should just be Genesect.
I used Calm Rotom-W. Need something to sponge Rain (Tornadus). It also burns stuff to help with setup (weaken Physical attackers) and Volt Switches into trappers.
One would think trapping would be infinitely more difficult now with all these offensive threats running around; unless you're running an offensive team yourself.
Eh the main problem I have with Scarf Gothitelle is that set-up sweepers can use you as set-up fodder if you're locked into the wrong move. An example would be something like Volcarona coming in after you hp-ice'd a Dragonite or something. I personally think Gothitelle is a pretty cool mon to use in the metagame because it eliminates Terrakion and other big threats pretty easily once you death fodder something.
I don't really find any set other than its Scarf set to be useful, really. Base 95 SpAtk and 65 speed are pathetic >.>
I don't really find any set other than its Scarf set to be useful, really. Base 95 SpAtk and 65 speed are pathetic >.>
Trapping is a pretty neat concept, especially with the release of Shadow Tag Gothitelle and the rise of Genesect + Dugtrio combinations. Personally, I've been trying Gothitelle and it works very nicely, being able to remove the bulky Steels that annoy my team. It works great on offense because Gothitelle already has nice bulk to switch into Skarmory / Ferrothorn etc. paving the way for your sweepers.
Gothitelle (F) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 208 HP / 252 SAtk / 48 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Signal Beam / Shadow Ball
I've been using this pretty extensively on a Sand Team, and it works great. Like I said before, it clears the way for the rest of my team, and I have two variations of teams using this Gothitelle set alongside Sandslash / Stoutland. While the Scarf set is cool, I hate how weak it is. I found myself not being able to 2HKO so much, and it really hindered Gothitelle's effectiveness as a wallbreaker. I switched over to Choice Specs and I was really surprised. Specs Gothitelle is amazing, and works great for any weather team. 48 Speed EVs allow Gothitelle to outspeed 0 Spe Politoed so I can Thunderbolt it and remove it turn one, while I can do a hefty amount to Ninetales to the point where my CB Tar can Pursuit it. This also leads onto my trapping core, involving Gothitelle + Tyranitar. My worst team matchup was Rain, and I needed a way to remove Politoed. Gothitelle beats defensive sets, while offensive ones were Pursuited after being choice locked into a wrong move. It's a great way for ensuring the weather war against offensive Rain early on, not opening yourself up to Tornadus-T and Thundurus-T.
Gothitelle (F) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 208 HP / 252 SAtk / 48 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Signal Beam / Shadow Ball
I've been using this pretty extensively on a Sand Team, and it works great. Like I said before, it clears the way for the rest of my team, and I have two variations of teams using this Gothitelle set alongside Sandslash / Stoutland. While the Scarf set is cool, I hate how weak it is. I found myself not being able to 2HKO so much, and it really hindered Gothitelle's effectiveness as a wallbreaker. I switched over to Choice Specs and I was really surprised. Specs Gothitelle is amazing, and works great for any weather team. 48 Speed EVs allow Gothitelle to outspeed 0 Spe Politoed so I can Thunderbolt it and remove it turn one, while I can do a hefty amount to Ninetales to the point where my CB Tar can Pursuit it. This also leads onto my trapping core, involving Gothitelle + Tyranitar. My worst team matchup was Rain, and I needed a way to remove Politoed. Gothitelle beats defensive sets, while offensive ones were Pursuited after being choice locked into a wrong move. It's a great way for ensuring the weather war against offensive Rain early on, not opening yourself up to Tornadus-T and Thundurus-T.
Why so little Speed evs? You need speed to outspeed and OHKO Celebi before it can U-turn out, Breloom before it is able to put you to sleep / ohko you, Xatu before it can U-turn out and some more that i may be missing. Even if you don't care about Celebi or Xatu, Breloom is too big of a threat to ignore. And of 'course if running HP Ice to OHKO Gliscor, Timid with max Speed is the way to go, otherwise Gliscor will pp stall you out of HP Ice with Sub + Protect.
I think pursuit tyranitar should definitely be added to the list, because it puts opposing psychics in a lose-lose situation, which is what all trappers do.
lose/lose situation I was referring to was the possibility that pursuit KOs even when you stay in, of course all trappers have this problem. Magnezone can't trap a scarfed scizor on brick break, but in the case of a low HP starmie vs tyranitar, the starmie is dead no matter what. That's enough to warrant calling it a trapper for me.
The point is that gothitelle is a horrible pokemon. Before it got shadow tag it wasnt even used in NU. Shadow tag gets released and it gets quickbanned to BL. I dont even wanna think about what happens when tag chandy is gonna be released. Its already a good poke without tag. I swear to weedle if that thing doesnt get quickbanned to ubers ill eat my pillow.
Trapping is a pretty neat concept, especially with the release of Shadow Tag Gothitelle and the rise of Genesect + Dugtrio combinations. Personally, I've been trying Gothitelle and it works very nicely, being able to remove the bulky Steels that annoy my team. It works great on offense because Gothitelle already has nice bulk to switch into Skarmory / Ferrothorn etc. paving the way for your sweepers.
Gothitelle (F) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 208 HP / 252 SAtk / 48 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Signal Beam / Shadow Ball
I've been using this pretty extensively on a Sand Team, and it works great. Like I said before, it clears the way for the rest of my team, and I have two variations of teams using this Gothitelle set alongside Sandslash / Stoutland. While the Scarf set is cool, I hate how weak it is. I found myself not being able to 2HKO so much, and it really hindered Gothitelle's effectiveness as a wallbreaker. I switched over to Choice Specs and I was really surprised. Specs Gothitelle is amazing, and works great for any weather team. 48 Speed EVs allow Gothitelle to outspeed 0 Spe Politoed so I can Thunderbolt it and remove it turn one, while I can do a hefty amount to Ninetales to the point where my CB Tar can Pursuit it. This also leads onto my trapping core, involving Gothitelle + Tyranitar. My worst team matchup was Rain, and I needed a way to remove Politoed. Gothitelle beats defensive sets, while offensive ones were Pursuited after being choice locked into a wrong move. It's a great way for ensuring the weather war against offensive Rain early on, not opening yourself up to Tornadus-T and Thundurus-T.
I suggest you to try Trick in place of Signal Beam / Shadow Ball, it's useful against Blissey / Chansey or against another wall who it can't trap-kill and in my opinion Trick is definitely a better choice than Signal Beam or Shadow Ball for Gothitelle.
The thing about Gothitelle is that its always tailored to the team its used on. If he's not using Trick on it already then its because the team isn't particularly weak to Blissey and Chansey. If he has Signal Beam then he's obviously trying to support something like Breloom by removing Celebi. Trick isn't better than Signal Beam / Shadow Ball on Gothitelle, as that decision comes 100% down to the team.
Speaking of Gothitelle, the OP is looking a bit sparce core-wise. Would anyone like to share some Gothitelle cores they've been using so I can c+p them in?
I've been using to combination of Expert Belt Genesect, Choice Band Garchomp, Scarf Gothitelle with Thunder Wave and Bug Gem Scolipede. It sounds a little strange, but has actually worked pretty well. Since most people with Genesect will lead with it, I'll lead with Scolipede and go right for spikes. Either they U-turn and I get a couple of layers, or they flamethrower and Gothitelle traps and paralyzes them, leaving them open to a sweep. If they don't lead with Genesect, Bug Gem Megahorn tends to lure Heatran, who I will prompty EQ and put out of comission. Megahorn will also OHKO most lead Deoxys. Garchomp can come into Heatran off Genesect's U-turn and force it out, and tends to lure things like Skarmory. Since CB Outrage pretty much forces Skarm to heal, you can freely switch to Gothitelle and Thunderbolt it. Thunder Wave also catches Lati@s locked into the wrong move, while Starmie, on of the few fast Pokemon I can't paralyze, is trapped and kod with thunderbolt when it tries to spin. Tornadus-T, another threatening Pokemon for offensive teams, is trapped and ko'd after sr and a round of LO recoil. With faster Pokemon crippled or eliminated and the toughest walls outraged into oblivion, Genesect is free to roll through most teams.
The actual core I was using was something like this..
Tyranitar (F) @ Choice Band
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Atk / 100 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Superpower
Gothitelle (M) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 208 HP / 252 SAtk / 48 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Signal Beam
Stoutland (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sand Rush
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Frustration
- Crunch
- Superpower
- Wild Charge
This core works particularly well on Sand Offense because a lot of 'mons commonly used in Sand have the same counters, (Tyranitar, Sandslash, Terrakion, Stoutland, Hippowdon all have trouble with Skarmory, etc). Trick is an option on Gothitelle, but it really isn't needed. Everything I'd ideally like to trap with Gothitelle will be KO'd, which is Gothitelle's purpose on the team I use, so I wouldn't directly switch Gothitelle into Chansey to Trick it and take a Thunder Wave when I have like 4 other physical attackers. Gothitelle is also great against more defensively inclined teams, everytime you switch it in you can potentially remove one part of a defensive core. Common stall members that are trapped include Skarmory, Politoed, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Jellicent, Tentacruel, Celebi, Abomasnow and a few other notable 'mons. When you remove a certain Steel you pave the way for Stoutland or Sandslash, and this is made even easier when Band Tar + Specs Gothitelle is great for winning weather wars.
Tyranitar (F) @ Choice Band
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Atk / 100 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Superpower
Gothitelle (M) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 208 HP / 252 SAtk / 48 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Signal Beam
Stoutland (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sand Rush
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Frustration
- Crunch
- Superpower
- Wild Charge
This core works particularly well on Sand Offense because a lot of 'mons commonly used in Sand have the same counters, (Tyranitar, Sandslash, Terrakion, Stoutland, Hippowdon all have trouble with Skarmory, etc). Trick is an option on Gothitelle, but it really isn't needed. Everything I'd ideally like to trap with Gothitelle will be KO'd, which is Gothitelle's purpose on the team I use, so I wouldn't directly switch Gothitelle into Chansey to Trick it and take a Thunder Wave when I have like 4 other physical attackers. Gothitelle is also great against more defensively inclined teams, everytime you switch it in you can potentially remove one part of a defensive core. Common stall members that are trapped include Skarmory, Politoed, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Jellicent, Tentacruel, Celebi, Abomasnow and a few other notable 'mons. When you remove a certain Steel you pave the way for Stoutland or Sandslash, and this is made even easier when Band Tar + Specs Gothitelle is great for winning weather wars.
Since Penguin X asked for cores...
Tyranitar (F) @ Choice Band
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spd
Adamant Nature
~ Crunch
~ Pursuit
~ Stone Edge
~ Superpower
Gothitelle @ Choice Specs
Shadow Tag
EVs: 208 HP / 252 SpA / 48 Spe
Modest Nature
~ Psyshock
~ Hidden Power Fire
~ Thunderbolt
~ Signal Beam / Trick
Sandslash @ Life Orb
Sand Rush
8 HP / 252 Atk / 248 Spd
Jolly Nature
~ Earthquake
~ Stone Edge
~ X-Scissor / Shadow Claw / Rapid Spin
~ Swords Dance
tried this one, very effective. Gothithelle and T-tar work together to slap things that may prevent a Sandslash sweep (Skarmory, Slowbro, Latios/as, Ferro, Forry, Weather starters, Celebi if Slash doesn't pack X-scissor). Trick can be used to fuck with Chansey but its not needed. Slash may use X-scissor or Shadow Claw, depending on your needs (hitting Celebi / Hydreigon vs hitting Gengar mainly, because Stab EQ deals more damage than x2 Shadow Claw). Rapid Spin is always a cool option to have.
EDIT: Eff u, Jimbon.
Tyranitar (F) @ Choice Band
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spd
Adamant Nature
~ Crunch
~ Pursuit
~ Stone Edge
~ Superpower
Gothitelle @ Choice Specs
Shadow Tag
EVs: 208 HP / 252 SpA / 48 Spe
Modest Nature
~ Psyshock
~ Hidden Power Fire
~ Thunderbolt
~ Signal Beam / Trick
Sandslash @ Life Orb
Sand Rush
8 HP / 252 Atk / 248 Spd
Jolly Nature
~ Earthquake
~ Stone Edge
~ X-Scissor / Shadow Claw / Rapid Spin
~ Swords Dance
tried this one, very effective. Gothithelle and T-tar work together to slap things that may prevent a Sandslash sweep (Skarmory, Slowbro, Latios/as, Ferro, Forry, Weather starters, Celebi if Slash doesn't pack X-scissor). Trick can be used to fuck with Chansey but its not needed. Slash may use X-scissor or Shadow Claw, depending on your needs (hitting Celebi / Hydreigon vs hitting Gengar mainly, because Stab EQ deals more damage than x2 Shadow Claw). Rapid Spin is always a cool option to have.
EDIT: Eff u, Jimbon.