np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

[haunter]

There is no need to post a screenshot of your ladder rank here. A dedicated thread for the identification of the voters will be posted at the end of the test.

 

[Lazybeef]

Testing Keldeo? Come on, that is just silly. It is completely walled by some things unless it carries a specific hidden power which would leave it walled by other pokes. If Keldeo gets banned, I would lose some of my respect to Smogon.

With Tornadus-T, however, it is a bit harder. Initially, I figured I would just write how Tornadus-T totally does not break OU, but as I read the discussion had in this thread, I realised how correct many posters are about "outliving". Tornadus-T is completely managable. At first.

After 30 or so turns, the usual Tornadus-T checks and switch ins will be considerably weakened while Torn-T won't. 121 speed, 110 special attack and an attack which is completely reliable in rain and sits at 120 BP not factoring in STAB would be completely fine for OU. A bit annoying to deal with maybe, but manageable. What pushes Torn-T over the top, is U-turn with regenerator. Anyone who questions this, ask yourselves this: when you play rain or play against rain and use Torn-T, who is usually the last poke standing (flying)?

If I get voting reqs I would most likely vote to ban Torn-T. Not like it matters if I post that here, just putting it out there.

 

[nygerman]

Hi all, I'm only a casual battler who doesn't ladder, but if I may ask I'm surprised that no one ever mention Scarf-ditto as Tornadus-T revenge-killer/check.

Tornadus-T will only come in when rain is up to spam hurricane, so if you steal your opponent's tornadus T now they will be screwed because you have scarf tornadus t spamming hurricane all over his/her team. Moreover, his/her team wouldn't be able to counter it with another weather because its already raining. Assuming a cookie cutter rain offense team of Politoed/Tornadus-T/Ferrothorn/Dugtrio/Scarf-Keldeo they all will get wrecked by scarf ditto spamming hurricane as scarf tornadus-t,

At least I successfully pulled this trick on several occasion when I'm battling (I only played 3-4 battles consecutively so I'm still presumably at the bottom of the ladder)

Scarf ditto is useless. Hurricane from 110 attack doesn't even OHKO Tornadus T and Tornadus will revenge ditto. Also, ditto is rarely that useful and putting ditto on the team just for tornadus is wasteful. However, there are clear checks and counters to tornadus.

Thundurus is a good one. Volt switch will OHKO Tornadus, this mean that tornadus has to switch or die.

 

[masterful]

That's a few SR switch-in's, a U-turn hits, or some Spikes. Definitely not a lot of support.

That classifies as a lot of support to me. How much more do you want?

Please don't exaggerate arguments that were not made. There is absolutely no link between the first condition and the conclusion drawn in the above quote.

It was said verbatim that "a few SR switch-in's and a few U-turn hits" was a lot of support. That's not a lot of support. SR will almost always be up in a match, and if I'm using LO Tornadus-T, odds are I'm clicking U-turn once or twice in a match. This is entirely semantics, but you literally stated that U-turn hits and SR qualifies as a lot of support, an absurd argument seeing as most all teams have SR support, and most all teams have U-turners. As for having pokes to switch into the things you U-turn out of, that's just normal teambuilding.

The point I was making was that Tornadus-T lends itself far too well to the idea of a late-game cleanup artist for a couple reasons.

1) Unlike ScarfMence or Scarf Kyurem-b, Tornadus-T gets U-turn, which allows you to keep up momentum and weaken your checks over the course of a match.
2) Unlike those two above, Tornadus-T also has Regenerator, which goes a long way towards ensuring that Tornadus's checks will be weakened much quicker than Tornadus itself, especially since the two best and most common checks, Rotom-W and Jirachi, have Pain Split (/Resto Chesto) and Wish as their only recovery, respectively, and something like SubCM Rachi can't even afford to carry that.
3) Unlike those two above, Tornadus-T isn't a scarfer. I know that's incredibly obvious, but think of the benefits it provides. You can Hurricane something like a Jirachi for a decent chunk, and THEN U-turn out to further weaken it. (I know that sounds like much ado about nothing, since U-Turn isn't doing a ton of damage by anyone's metric, but this is just more on the idea that Tornadus-T is too good at wearing down the opposition while staying healthy). Also, Tornadus gets to use Superpower/Focus Blast, offering near unresisted coverage, while a Scarfmence Outrage is of course not unresisted.

My point is not that Tornadus-T does something no other poke can or ever has been able to do, but that it does it too well, with too little risk, to be considered balanced.

 

[Lavos]

Keldeo is becoming less and less effective on the OU [current] ladder as people start overpreparing for it more and more. I have seen a larger number of Amoonguss in my brief 30-battle stint on the ladder so far than I have for the entirety of my experience in BW2. The thing counters even Specs Keldeo pretty hard (which I also have seen more of than ever before). I'm starting to wish we could have a ladder where Torn-T and Keldeo are nonexistent just so we can see the effects of their absence on the metagame. In my mind, this would give us all a more accurate interpretation of what these two suspects actually do to the metagame. We compare before-and-after, and decide which metagame is more healthy. Our decision-making becomes a whole lot easier. This makes good sense to do. Unfortunately we're already a few days into the round so I'm not sure if this is a realistic possibility, but it could be worth a try.

 

[ssbbm]

question about the ladder: is anybody else having troubles with their wins not counting?

i've had at least 5 battles which i've won but that haven't shown on my win-loss record (or changed my glicko) because "ladder could not be updated"

 

[Deluks917]

I got that message all the time but all my win/loses were actually counted. Wait 1-3 minutes and then manually check your rating with /ranking. Sometimes it took over 20 minutes to show but every game I palyed counted.

Btw if anyone is interested in how long getting reqs takes it took me 67 games to get deviation low enough.

 

[Terraquaza]

I got that message all the time but all my win/loses were actually counted. Wait 1-3 minutes and then manually check your rating with /ranking. Sometimes it took over 20 minutes to show but every game I palyed counted.

Btw if anyone is interested in how long getting reqs takes it took me 67 games to get deviation low enough.

Same here, I have ±56 with 71 matches, but I only get +3 glicko2 points per win a.a

 

[panamaxis]

I implore all users who get voting requirements to consider whether you would also ban keldeo and/or tornadus-T in a non-politoed metagame and subsequently whether tornadus-T/keldeo or politoed is the broken mon.

I just wanna throw that out there, please do not construe this post as "ban politoed".

 

[Pocket]

not quite sure where you're getting at, panamaxis, but to answer your question:

Tornadus-T / Keldeo in a non-politoed metagame would obviously be non-broken. That's not to say that Tornadus-T, Keldeo, or both are broken in a politoed metagame. That's what we're trying to discuss now.

 

[alexwolf]

The problem with that argument is the fact that, while you can force Tornadus-T out with a full-health bulky mon, you won't be anywhere near full health endgame. The problem I see with Tornadus-T that doesn't apply to something like Terrakion, which is similarly hard to switch in on, even more so, is that very few things that aren't scarfers outspeed Tornadus (Weavile and Jolteon are the only two I can think of), and requiring either a full health poke or a scarfer to force out Tornadus-T is not reliable, since pokes get worn down, and scarfers are scarfers (ie. can be set up on if they pick the wrong move, etc). Strong priority is of course good against Tornadus-T, but those moves aren't always safe to go for if the opponent has a set-up sweeper or powerful attacker that laughs in the face of a Banded Bullet Punch or LO Ice Shard (of which there are a good amount). Tornadus isn't Swift Swimmer or Excadrill broken, but the pressure it puts on an opponent for the amount of risk it takes to click either Hurricane or U-turn is unhealthy for the game, in my opinion. It's just a little too sustainable, a little too fast, and a little too strong to stay in this meta, at least while Drizzle's around.

You didn't understand the situation i described. With a heavy offense team every Pokemon you sent out will be either healthy or will have set-up, meaning that Torn-T won't get that little damage it wants to sweep through the team.

 

[Deluks917]

@pana: I doubt anyone will say they would ban Torn-T or Keldeo if politoed was banned. Though I think keldeo is still very good (A-rank by that threads standard) in neutral/sand.

 

[alexwolf]

@ssbm

I already read your post but i didn't answer because you weren't really arguing for something. If you do however argue that HO teams are the only ones capable of handling Torn-T without getting specificly prepared for it then i disagree. Multiple checks and counters to the bird have already been mentioned, and they have other uses as well in a team, meaning that they aren't used only to stop Torn-T. Jirachi, Rotom-W, and Bronzong are excellent examples of pretty viable Pokemon that check/counter Torn-T while having a shitton of other roles.

Whether or not your team will be able to outlast the opposing team, or Torn-T will manage to outlast your team is another complicated issue that has no easy answer. However it surely isn't as simple as many people make it seem when saying ''Torn-T has Regenerator and few counters with reliable recovery, so most of them can and will be bypassed over the course of the battle''. For example i have seen many people claiming that Specs Torn-T is the better set. This means that Torn-T will get at most one kill against a team with BandTtar, and will get completlely walled by Chansey, Blissey, and Jirachi. If it is the LO variant it will get worn down pretty quickly, as SR + LO + potential sand or damage from resisted attacks will quickly take their toll. And no i am not theorymoning, i am speaking from personal experience. As long as you are not playing bad and not giving Torn-T a shitton of switch-in oportunities it will only manage to switch in ~2 times before dying from recoil or getting picked of by every single priority user (i am talking about the LO variant).

The only thing that i have to blame Torn-T for is the ability to make stall's life even harder, as stall teams without Jirachi, Bronzong, or Zapdos will be unable to handle the LO variant and will have to resort to solutions such as Weavile or Scarf Gothitelle (or any Scarfer in general). Yeah it is a pain for some balanced teams to deal with too, but so are Pokemon such as Terrakion, Keldeo, and Breloom. With proper support they will all sweep.

Oh and just for the record (as it doesn't really bring anything to the discussion) i don't agree that every Uber is a non issue with HO (just take a look at SD NormalCeus or Deo-S).

 

[Lavos]

I implore all users who get voting requirements to consider whether you would also ban keldeo and/or tornadus-T in a non-politoed metagame and subsequently whether tornadus-T/keldeo or politoed is the broken mon.

I just wanna throw that out there, please do not construe this post as "ban politoed".

imo neither torn nor keldeo is broken outside of rain, but that's not what we're voting on. the vote is supposed to be on whether or not torn/keldeo are broken in the current metagame. don't vote on a potential future scenario, vote on what's tangible, which is the current state of the meta.

please avoid interpreting this post as “don't ban politoed”.

 

[panamaxis]

not quite sure where you're getting at, panamaxis, but to answer your question:

Tornadus-T / Keldeo in a non-politoed metagame would obviously be non-broken. That's not to say that Tornadus-T, Keldeo, or both are broken in a politoed metagame. That's what we're trying to discuss now.

I didn't have a question, it was a statement but anyway.

What I am getting at (if it wasn't already obvious) is that I hope voters consider whether tornadus/keldeo are inherently "broken" themselves or whether politoed makes them "broken". I realise we are trying to figure out whether Torn-T/Keldeo are broken in a politoed metagame... All i mean is if voters do come to the conclusions that one or both are broken in a politoed metagame, I hope they consider whether those mons are broken themselves or whether politoed is making them "broken"

@pana: I doubt anyone will sayt hey would ban Torn-T or Keldeo if politoed was banned.

Tornadus-T / Keldeo in a non-politoed metagame would obviously be non-broken.

Anyway, you both basically have shown that you don't think Keldeo/Torn-T are broken if politoed doesn't exist which is what my post was all about.

My post is basically saying that if voters have the same viewpoint as you two in that keldeo/tornadus-T aren't broken w/o poli but ARE broken with poli they should consider eliminating the actual cause of their "brokeness" (which would be politoed).

 

[Terraquaza]

I'm 55-17 with a deviation of 56, but I still just have 1899 in Glicko2, is that normal?

I'm tired :(

 

[panamaxis]

imo neither torn nor keldeo is broken outside of rain, but that's not what we're voting on. the vote is supposed to be on whether or not torn/keldeo are broken in the current metagame. don't vote on a potential future scenario, vote on what's tangible, which is the current state of the meta.

please avoid interpreting this post as “don't ban politoed”.

I'm not saying "ban politoed" I'm saying "do not ban keldeo/Torn-T EVEN IF they are broken in the current metagame IF you believe that cause of that brokeness is politoed.

There is a difference between "don't ban keldeo/torn" and "ban politoed". The former is 'tangible', while the latter is not. The former is my viewpoint and it is not a future scenario...

"ban politoed" is the future scenario.
"don't ban keldeo/Torn-T if politoed makes them broken" is a current scenario and my viewpoint.

Comprende?

You should be considering the cause of every pokemon's "brokeness". It's not enough to potentially say they are broken you need to justify WHY they are. You yourself said they aren't broken w/o politoed. So if you were to come to the conclusion that they were broken in this metagame then by your own admission, the reason they would be broken is because of politoed. Therefore, politoed would be the broken one, not keldeo/Torn-T. This should be the logic that allows you to vote "do not ban" even if they are broken in this metagame.

Arguably lucario/salamence/dragonite etc. were broken in a wobb DPP metagame but no-one banned them (at that stage anyway for salamence), the CAUSE was banned, which was wobuffet.

 

[Pocket]

Please read the OP, panamaxis:

To avoid confusion here, Drizzle is off the table utterly. The OU Council does not want the following to happen:

So atm I'm planning on voting OU on both of these so that we can hopefully get a Drizzle test and ban that instead.

There are many reason for this, the primary one being that it skews the results of the suspect test. For the purposes of this thread, Drizzle is off limits, and please assume we wont have a Drizzle test following this, so post / vote accordingly. OU Council members are welcome to post their reasoning as to why abusers are being tested rather than Drizzle as a whole, but aside from this exception, this thread is for the discussion of Keldeo and Tornadus-T ONLY.

Your line of reasoning is EXACTLY what we are trying to avoid. Only vote OU for Keldeo / Tornadus-T if you think the current rain meta is not broken. If they stay, the assumption would be that the current rain playstyle is fine, and we wont address Rain any further. If you have any flack, talk to the council members at #suspect.

 

[Lavos]

i understand what you're saying and i still contend that you're wrong. you're trying to tell me to keep torn and keldeo ou despite one of them clearly being broken in hope that the ou council is going to suspect politoed? while i dislike drizzle as much as the rest of you, i'm not going to let the current suspects ravage the ou metagame while you would have us all pray to the mighty majority to not only suspect politoed, but have it banned as well. that's too big a risk to be taking when the fate of an entire tier is at stake. i'm going to stick with what i know instead of what you would like me to believe.

edit: thanks for clearing it up for him, pocket

 

[Lady Alex]

I'm not saying "ban politoed" I'm saying "do not ban keldeo/Torn-T EVEN IF they are broken in the current metagame IF you believe that cause of that brokeness is politoed.

There is a difference between "don't ban keldeo/torn" and "ban politoed". The former is 'tangible', while the latter is not. The former is my viewpoint and it is not a future scenario...

"ban politoed" is the future scenario.
"don't ban keldeo/Torn-T if politoed makes them broken" is a current scenario and my viewpoint.

Comprende?

You should be considering the cause of every pokemon's "brokeness". It's not enough to potentially say they are broken you need to justify WHY they are. You yourself said they aren't broken w/o politoed. So if you were to come to the conclusion that they were broken in this metagame then by your own admission, the reason they would be broken is because of politoed. Therefore, politoed would be the broken one, not keldeo/Torn-T. This should be the logic that allows you to vote "do not ban" even if they are broken in this metagame.

Arguably lucario/salamence/dragonite etc. were broken in a wobb DPP metagame but no-one banned them (at that stage anyway for salamence), the CAUSE was banned, which was wobuffet.

While I, personally, would love to ban Drizzle, it's not what's being tested, and I'm not going to vote to keep Tornadus-T/Keldeo OU in hopes that we'll eventually get a Drizzle suspect test because, if we didn't get one in the future, we would be stuck with this mediocre metagame.

 

[panamaxis]

@ Lavos Spawn: it's not that I think you should keep a broken suspect in the hopes that they'd test politoed, it's that i think keldeo/torn-T wouldn't be the broken one, it would be politoed (you even agree that they're not broken w/o rain so politoed would be the one "breaking them" so they wouldn't be broken themselves, politoed would be but w/e..).

Anyway, my bad for not reading the OP. I will take my concerns to #suspect as you suggested Pocket. Thanks

 

[SoulMuse]

Okay, I was going to point this out before Pocket posted, but by the logic you just used, Tyranitar should have been banned instead of Excadrill. (Since my understanding of that ban was Sand Rush + and Swords Dance= Good Game) That didn't happen, and doesn't seem like it will right now, so isn't of moaning, can we move back to talking about the suspects at hand?

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

a Tornadus-T with taunt actually managed to beat out my Jirachi a little while ago, of course this guy predicted my moves like some sort of pokemon wizard, but the point that Tornadus-T can beat out Jirachi actually stands. Although I should note that at that point in the battle is Tornadus-T had slowly been worn down and I defeated it a little later using a psychic from Celebi.

I think the fact that Tornadus-T can actually break through dedicated checks and counters with a little bit of thinking is an important point. This doesn't even apply to Jirachi or spD-Rotom-W, but checks in general. A while back Mudkip guy (sorry I can't remember your name and I don't feel like going back 8 pages) noted that he had 3 solid Tornadus-T checks on his team. Yet against good battlers, they could play around with his team with ease, testing out how he plays over and over again through a good use of u-turn and hurricane. Eventually they would slowly break down his team and eliminate all his checks and then just proceed to demolish him. If this was any other pokemon, weather and hazards would of worn it down, but not with Tornadus-T. In this situation the battle was completely out his hands, what more could be have done? Such an unfair advantage over a common team type the the least shows how dangerous Tornadus-T is. At this point I am leaning towards wanting it banned.

 

[doublenikesocks]

I'm going to back on a philosophy used in DPP OU suspects. There were three conditions on which a Pokemon was considered to be broken. If a poke met one of those conditions, it was banned from ou.

There was the Support characteristic: a pokemon could provide support that could help a team win very easily. ex. Deoxys-E

There was the sweeper characteristic (I think its been several years)
A pokemon that could sweeps entire teams with little to no support
ex: Garchomp

And finally the defensive characteristic (I think lol)
A pokemon that walls most of the meta
ex: Lugia

Tornadus-T fits none of these. It can't sweep teams with little support, nor does it support sweepers the way deoxys-e did. It can't wall at all, it just creates a somewhat stale metagame. If we really wanted to nerf rain, we'd buff other weathers

 

[Lavos]

how does garchomp fit as a sweeper if torn-t does not? chomp needed sand to sweep as much as the bird needs rain to do so. idk where you're coming from with this. and nerfing rain by buffing other weathers is a horrible idea. we all saw what happened with excadrill.