np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

[kd24]

Honey boo boo says that the problem with deoxys-s is that it was unpredictable. You didn't know if it was offensive or a suicide lead and sometimes that would cost you your spinner or magic bouncer. Garchomp could run about 2-3 other sets, but SV just made it easy to abuse one to absurd levels. Blaziken actually had some unpredictability because before it was banned, people started abusing special sets to nail its usual counters/checks, like slowbro and hippowdon. Predictability is actual a valid argument b/c unlike the ubers mentioned above, Tornadus-t doesn't have too many other viable methods to get past its counters or screw over your main game plan.

this is already the worst gimmick account i've ever seen

deoxys-s in bw1 was banned for its suicide lead capabilities and the fact that the lo sweeper set helps eliminate speed tiers and styles of play. i never met anyone who thought the actual problem with deoxys-s was its "unpredictability"

chomp can run scarf cb sdlo sdyache etc, but the problem was universally sand veil, and not its unpredictability. i mean chomps unbanned now and no ones complaining...

blaziken was banned once again because of its power and metagame decimation, pretty much forcing you to run a slowbro or azumarrill or w/e obscure answer. can it run different sets? yes, but the problem was once again not influenced by unpredictability.

Tornadus-t btw, runs a pretty effective flying gem acrobatics set for what it's worth, one that is actually extremely good outside of rain because of how useful regenerator + taunt + strong flying attack is. but im not complaining about the unpredictable tornadus-t...my issue is with his speed and power and influence on the meta with regen, fast uturn, great spam attack in hurricane, and the problems most of the meta have against a tornadus-t. it has counters but many of them either arent effective or they lose overtime because of regenerator keeping tornadus-t alive.

 

[Honey boo boo]

Deoxys-s unpredictably was an issue, and that people were using different sets to stop spinners like starmie or forretres from doing their job. That lead to having 2-3 layers of hazards on your field and ultimately having all 5 of your other pokemon @ 75% health.

Blaziken had stuff that resisted its dual stabs like dragonite and jellicent, but it could just run a work up set with a good HP to get past them(yes that set was sassy and did work). It was it's power and the fact that it had ways to get around its "counters" is what made it broken.

You're just resassifying what I said for garchomp, lawl.

That acrobatics set is not sassy, because you are relying on an unboosted base 105 atk to sweep teams. Sure it can run bulk up, but when is it going to have the time when so many other threats can set up on it(like gyarados, scizor, ect). That set is even easier to wall and doesn't even change Tornadus-t's coverage or counters(but actually adds on to them). Don't mentions gimmick as a counter argument please. *snap*

I would like to say that outlasting its counters is a poor argument cuz a counter's job it to force the pokemon out and threaten it. If your counter was "outlasted" it just means you sucked and your opponent was better than you. Just because you were outplayed doesn't mean we have to ban somethin so that you can play w/o thinkin'.

 

[RabidChipmunk]

Honey boo boo says that deoxys-s unpredictably was an issue, and that people were using different sets to stop spinners like starmie or forretres from doing their job. That lead to having 2-3 layers of hazards on your field and ultimately having all 5 of your other pokemon @ 75% health.

Blaziken had stuff that resisted its dual stabs like dragonite and jellicent, but it could just run a work up set with a good HP to get past them(yes that set was sassy and did work). It was it's power and the fact that it had ways to get around its "counters" is what made it broken.

You're just resassifying what I said for garchomp, lawl.

That acrobatics set is not sassy, because you are relying on an unboosted base 105 atk to sweep teams. Sure it can run bulk up, but when is it going to have the time when so many other threats can set up on it(like gyarados, scizor, ect). That set is even easier to wall and doesn't even change Tornadus-t's coverage or counters(but actually adds on to them). Don't mentions gimmick as a counter argument please. *snap*

Honey boo boo would like to say that outlasting its counters is a pooty poo argument cuz a counter's job it to force the pokemon out and threaten it. If your counter was "outlasted" it just means you sucked and your opponent was better than you, not that tweetie is broken. Just because you were outplayed doesn't mean we have to ban somethin so that you can play w/o thinkin'. Eeemmmmhhhmmm. *double snap*

Hide

Okay I'm going to pretend you wrote this post in a way that didn't make me want to drink bleach and reply to it that way.

Being predictable doesn't make Tornadus-T not broken -- in fact, that's part of the problem. Tornadus-T is incredibly predictable, but you'll be damned to do anything to stop it. Tornadus has exactly one full-stop counter, Jirachi, and several other "counters" that don't hold water. Tornadus-T can outlast all those other counters; not because the player utilizing those counters is bad at the game, but because Tornadus-T doesn't have to try. It's counter comes in, it switches out, and ta-da, it's back to either full health or near full health. You simply cannot wear Tornadus-T down. Meanwhile, Tornadus-T can keep battering it's counters with Hurricanes until eventually they can't take them anymore (bar Jirachi).

 

[Honey boo boo]

-SR+LO damage does more to tornadus than regnerator can heal. Then, CB/LO ice shard from glitzy can OHKO. It also becomes easier to take out from other users as well. Like scarfers. Also if the counters switch in they can all voltswitch/u-turn too giving you the advantage. Skarm and my fat blob girls can set up hazards or spread status so you don't lose momentum.

-The specs set doesn't have to worry about that. However, it becomes set up bait when locked into certain moves. If it's locked into FB gengar, salemence and dragonite can set up on it. If it's locked into heatwave even lucario can set up on it(when it's in da redneck water). If it locks itself into hurricane, blissey/chansey, jirachi, rotom-w, and zapdos wall it. And u-turn is just a poor move to lock yourself into.

 

[Tressed]

-SR+LO damage does more to tornadus than regnerator can heal. Then, CB/LO ice shard from glitzy can OHKO. It also becomes easier to take out from other users as well. Like scarfers. Also if the counters switch in they can all voltswitch/u-turn too giving you the advantage. Skarm and my fat blob girls can set up hazards or spread status so you don't lose momentum.

-The specs set doesn't have to worry about that. However, it becomes set up bait when locked into certain moves. If it's locked into FB gengar, salemence and dragonite can set up on it. If it's locked into heatwave even lucario can set up on it(when it's in da redneck water). If it locks itself into hurricane, blissey/chansey, jirachi, rotom-w, and zapdos wall it. And u-turn is just a poor move to lock yourself into.

"U-Turn is a poor move to lock yourself into."
......

I didn't understand half this post. Nevermind who Glitzy is, how does Lucario, who is frail as hell, set up on a super effective move from a Choice Specs user, even in rain? Also, if you run choice items, you can expect to be walled by things that resist the move that you lock yourself into. I could say the same thing about Banded Terrakion, but no one disputes that set. Finally, no, the fat blob girls do not wall LO Torn-T, they will get hit in the face with Superpower, or UTurned off of to a counter.

 

[Honey boo boo]

I'm just saying that each set has its flaws, the fact that you're ignoring that is confusing. LO flaw is that it can be worn down and easy to pick off, plus it's not as powerful. Specs it can be set up bait to certain pokemon depending on the move and is easier to play around. Blissey/chansey can just softboil when it u-turns and come back in to wall it, I don't what you're talking about. The only way tornadus beats them is through hax.

 

[RabidChipmunk]

-SR+LO damage does more to tornadus than regnerator can heal. Then, CB/LO ice shard from MAMOSWINE can OHKO. It also becomes easier to take out from other users as well. Like scarfers. Also if the counters switch in they can all voltswitch/u-turn too giving you the advantage. Skarm and my fat blob girls can set up hazards or spread status so you don't lose momentum.

-The specs set doesn't have to worry about that. However, it becomes set up bait when locked into certain moves. If it's locked into FB gengar, salemence and dragonite can set up on it. If it's locked into heatwave even lucario can set up on it(when it's in da redneck water). If it locks itself into hurricane, blissey/chansey, jirachi, rotom-w, and zapdos wall it. And u-turn is just a poor move to lock yourself into.

First of all, standard specially defensive Jirachi don't carry U-turn. The standard set is Wish | Protect/Stealth Rock | Body Slam/Thunder Wave/Thunder | Iron Head. It can't make room for U-turn. The only real Tornadus-T "counters" who do have some form of VoltTurn are Rotom-W, Zapdos, and non-specially defensive Jirachi, who, as already discussed before, won't last the entire match.

Like you said, it's either priority or Choice Scarf'ers that can revenge kill Tornadus-T. Most of the time, Pokemon require either some form of set up or a Choice Scarf themselves to attain that kind of speed. But not Tornadus-T; he's that way from the get-go. And Stealth Rock plus LO only does 2% more damage then Regenerator can heal; that missing 2% is largely inconsequential, and if Tornadus really wants it back, all it has to do is switch in and out again (it will never need that 2% back, mind, but if it really wanted to it could).

 

[Honey boo boo]

First of all, standard specially defensive Jirachi don't carry U-turn.Who cares? No version of jirachi gets 3HKO'd. and you're the one complaining how Tornadus U-turns away, so I suggested that you can do the same thing to maintain momentum, and u-turn can easily fit in the fourth slot anyway. The standard set is Wish | Protect/Stealth Rock | Body Slam/Thunder Wave/Thunder | Iron Head. It can't make room for U-turn. The only real Tornadus-T "counters" who do have some form of VoltTurn are Rotom-W, Zapdos, and non-specially defensive Jirachi, who, as already discussed before, won't last the entire match.More flawed arguments. Zapdos has roost, the blobs have recovery, wtf are you even talking about? If your counter gets worn out thats YOUR fault for letting it get taken out so quickly. If you're playing poorly as to let a hard counter like skarmory or jirachi, that has recovery, get worn out, you have no one to blame but yourself.


Like you said, it's either priority or Choice Scarf'ers that can revenge kill Tornadus-T. Most of the time, Pokemon require either some form of set up or a Choice Scarf themselves to attain that kind of speed. But not Tornadus-T; he's that way from the get-go. And Stealth Rock plus LO only does 2% more damage then Regenerator can heal; that missing 2% is largely inconsequential, If it takes any damage when that's happening it won't be able to recover it all off so easily. And that 2% will eventually rack up along with external damage from other attacks. Meaning it DOES get worn down.and if Tornadus really wants it back, all it has to do is switch in and out again That makes it loose momentum and gives the opposing player a free turn.(it will never need that 2% back, mind, but if it really wanted to it could).Admit it, it has flaws that keeps it from being the god all of you are claiming it to be.

Replies in bold~~~

 

[Nix_Hex]

How about you lurk a bit before posting? Honestly, read the last 15 pages or so and you'll see counterarguments that are more sound than yours. I'll respond to your bold points individually, however obnoxious your format was.
1. This is an absurd claim. Jirachi doesn't recover HP by switching out and does get worn down. This is much moreso for less strictly defensive sets.
2. Zapdos can Roost while Torn-T just U-turns out. Pink Blobs are utter Taunt bait.
3. The problem here is the word "eventually". By the time "eventually" has come, Torn-T has likely done its job.
4. It's "lose," and switching is part of the game. You can say "switching gives your opponent momentum" about damn near anything but it holds no water when all your opponent can really do that is detrimental upon you switching is set up a substitute.
5. Every Pokemon has flaws; Blaziken, Thundurus, Excadrill [to a lesser extent] were frail and/or weak to priority. Deoxys-S didn't have amazing Special Attack and was a Psychic-type. Garchomp was 4x Ice Shard weak (not like it mattered). Likewise, Tornadus-T has a well-documented weakness to SR. The problem with all of these though is that by the time your opponent was able to take advantage of these weaknesses, the Pokemon had done its job.

 

[RaikouLover]

His arguments are poorly worded but they all have merit. Unfortunately the "ban Tornadus-T camp" just doesn't want to hear them..

1. This is an absurd claim. Jirachi doesn't recover HP by switching out and does get worn down. This is much moreso for less strictly defensive sets.

Having used both on my team, Tornadus-T doesn't wear down Jirachi if you are smart. You can't risk staying in on Jirachi and taking a potential paralysis. Jirachi walls Tornadus-T all day with Wish + Protect. Never have I ever seen Tornadus-T outlast Jirachi without MAJOR team support. Even Dugtrio isn't a fix.

2. Zapdos can Roost while Torn-T just U-turns out. Pink Blobs are utter Taunt bait.

Zapdos like Jirachi outlasts Tornadus-T easily. Zapdos is a tough cookie to crack. You can Taunt the blobs, but they can predict and just use Seismic Toss. Boom, theres another 33% of your health gone. So much for Regenerator.

3. The problem here is the word "eventually". By the time "eventually" has come, Torn-T has likely done its job.

I just never understood how this is such an argument for Uber. Tornadus-T can hang around all match but so can it's counters. It's not hard. I see Tornadus-T stuck in the last man from trying to outlast its counters and still losing. It eventually dies. If it Taunts around and shit all game and doesn't sweep anything, how is it Uber?

5. Every Pokemon has flaws; Blaziken, Thundurus, Excadrill [to a lesser extent] were frail and/or weak to priority. Deoxys-S didn't have amazing Special Attack and was a Psychic-type. Garchomp was 4x Ice Shard weak (not like it mattered). Likewise, Tornadus-T has a well-documented weakness to SR. The problem with all of these though is that by the time your opponent was able to take advantage of these weaknesses, the Pokemon had done its job.

And what is Tornadus-T's job? To sweep? It's just not going to do that as long as Jirachi / Rotom-W / Zapdos / Blobs / Sun / Hail / Sand / Choice Scarfers / Weavile / Mamoswine / Jolteon are alive. That is just such a lengthy list for it to be so easily sweeping the metagame.

 

[preserve]

And Stealth Rock plus LO only does 2% more damage then Regenerator can heal; that missing 2% is largely inconsequential,

Assuming you're only staying in for one turn every time tornadus is in.

and if Tornadus really wants it back, all it has to do is switch in and out again (it will never need that 2% back, mind, but if it really wanted to it could).

Yeah, switching in and out while being open to attacks really helps tornadus-t live longer.

 

[Deglas]

I have something to add to the "keep Tornadus-T in OU" group. Manual Rain Dance teams with Swift Swimmers are more viable than ever, and well-built ones demolish Drizzle teams.

 

[alamaster]

His arguments are poorly worded but they all have merit. Unfortunately the "ban Tornadus-T camp" just doesn't want to hear them..

lol pooty-poo

Having used both on my team, Tornadus-T doesn't wear down Jirachi if you are smart. You can't risk staying in on Jirachi and taking a potential paralysis. Jirachi walls Tornadus-T all day with Wish + Protect. Never have I ever seen Tornadus-T outlast Jirachi without MAJOR team support. Even Dugtrio isn't a fix.

How is Dugtrio not a fix? You act like Jirachi is immortal or something, but there isn't much it can do if Dugtrio/Magnezone are on the team. I have never lost a match to Jirachi with Magnezone on my team, Body Slam only does like 12% (Iron Head does like 7% lol) so unless Jirachi has U-Turn (and if it does it gives up protect) it loses.

Zapdos like Jirachi outlasts Tornadus-T easily. Zapdos is a tough cookie to crack. You can Taunt the blobs, but they can predict and just use Seismic Toss. Boom, theres another 33% of your health gone. So much for Regenerator.

So Regen recovers 30%, and Seismic Toss does 33%. Congrats, you just did 3%. Inb4 stealth rock mention, to which I can say the same thing about Zapdos, in which Torn-T does around 55-60% damage with SR. So much for Zapdos being a hard counter.

I just never understood how this is such an argument for Uber. Tornadus-T can hang around all match but so can it's counters. It's not hard. I see Tornadus-T stuck in the last man from trying to outlast its counters and still losing. It eventually dies. If it Taunts around and shit all game and doesn't sweep anything, how is it Uber?

Torn-T is not a sweeper lol. It's a wall breaker/cleaner, depending on the opponent's team. Often times I won't send it out until there's 3-4 pokemon left on the opponents team, and by then they are all weakened/frail enough to beat. Its as easy as getting Jirachi down to around 50% (or trapping) and cleaning up. Often that's all it takes to use Torn-T effectively. Rotom-W/Zapdos just makes it even easier.

And what is Tornadus-T's job? To sweep? It's just not going to do that as long as Jirachi / Rotom-W / Zapdos / Blobs / Sun / Hail / Sand / Choice Scarfers / Weavile / Mamoswine / Jolteon are alive. That is just such a lengthy list for it to be so easily sweeping the metagame.

No, it's not to sweep, as I said above. Every pokemon in the game has checks. That's how the game works. We know all about the checks that Torn-T has, and they don't mean a thing if Torn-T can continue to come in on something it can force out/KO (most of the tier). They cannot switch in.

 

[Gary]

You can't use predictability as an argument against going uber. SV Chomp was predictable yet did its job just fine. Deoxys-S had about two "predictable," yet broken sets. Blaziken was predictable for obvious reasons. Torn-T spams a 120 bp stab move that is 100% accurate in rain which is ubiquitous, U-turns when in trouble, and has Regenerator as a nice bonus. Sometimes predictability is the sign of just how powerful and potentially broken a Pokemon is.

Of course being predictable doesn't mean that it's necessarily not broken. I apologize if it sounded like I was trying to make that claim. However, going off your examples, I wouldn't really compare SV Chomp to Torn-T. SV Chomp was broken due to it's ability to dodge attacks behind a Substitute, and the fact that it was one of the bulkiest and fastest dragons around. Tornadus-T however, has to rely on one move to destroy things, and its blazing fast speed. Unlike Chomp, Torn-T can be paralyzed. I just feel that there are plenty of things in the meta game that threaten Tornadus-T, and although they may not be able to counter it, there are plenty that can potentially survive a Hurricane, if it's LO that is. Choice Specs sets are annoying, however I prefer going up against these sets because once he's locked into Hurricane I don't have to worry about taking a Superpower or being Taunted. I just don't feel that there's enough solid arguments on this thread that convince me this thing belongs in Ubers. In my opinion, I prefer seeing Tornadus-T on a Rain team then seeing Kyurem-B on any other team. Talk about uncounterable, although I like the big guy.

 

[Vemane]

Having used both on my team, Tornadus-T doesn't wear down Jirachi if you are smart. You can't risk staying in on Jirachi and taking a potential paralysis. Jirachi walls Tornadus-T all day with Wish + Protect. Never have I ever seen Tornadus-T outlast Jirachi without MAJOR team support. Even Dugtrio isn't a fix.

The key phrase here, though, is "if you are smart."

I have gotten past countless rachis/blisseys/etc. with my specs tornadus-t, and that is simply because I was the better player in all of those situations.

And while this is true, I have also (in the same games, nonetheless) outlasted tornadus every single time with a single specially defensive zapdos.

It truly, in my opinion, comes down to who is the better player (lest it comes down to gimmicks) when determining what will outlast what, but I'm not entirely sure which side that argues for (counters can be counters, tornadus can get past them). If anything it portrays tornadus as a "normal" pokemon: powerful if played well, not as much if not. But at the same time, its job is noticeably easier to perform than most other pokemon.

Of course being predictable doesn't mean that it's necessarily not broken

His point, from what I gathered, is that what makes tornadus stand out as being so good is that it is so great, even though it is incredibly predictable, in that it can rely on sheer force rather than crafty playing to accomplish what it needs to do.

Though I would disagree on Deoxys-s, Kd. I was under the impression that it was deoxys's unpredicatability that eventually did get it banned. Yes it was great at everything it did, but it truly wasn't anything that special. The problem was, you didn't know its set. If you were prepared to deal with a hazard lead and it began to setup screens, you were usually scewed. Same as if you went in to magic coat and it ko'd you with a life orb shadow ball or whatever shit people used idk.




Oh yeah, and by the way:

what i'm still wondering about the thundurus-t thing is that if scarf is used less than 18% of the time, with agility being by far the most common set, why is it going to be able to switch into torn-t (taking hurricane for ~50% when it does so) and then "scare it out"? i mean if the most common set by far is NOT the scarf set why is the torn-t user going to care if thun-t just switched in and lost half its health to hurricane?

Incorrect again.

But keep in mind that was also november.

Thundurus-Therian |
+----------------------------------------+
| Abilities |
| Volt Absorb 100.000% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Items |
| Life Orb 26.564% |
| Choice Scarf 26.207%



Fuck yeah

 

[Halcyon.]

Switching gears for a second, can I ask why so many people hate on Calm Mind Keldeo? I've used it a lot and I can say for sure that it's super useful. After a Calm Mind you get the power of specs but you can switch moves and you have more special defense. Obviously it's not immediate, so specs might be quicker, but I really do think Calm Mind Keldeo is useful. Anyone?

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Switching gears for a second, can I ask why so many people hate on Calm Mind Keldeo? I've used it a lot and I can say for sure that it's super useful. After a Calm Mind you get the power of specs but you can switch moves and you have more special defense. Obviously it's not immediate, so specs might be quicker, but I really do think Calm Mind Keldeo is useful. Anyone?

I've used it, though I prefer the Choice Specs set. It has immediate power, and even though it cannot switch moves, that's where Tyranitar is useful for. It eliminates all Keldeo's counters, with exception of Toxicroak (although Toxicroak has a chance to be 2HKOed by Hidden Power Electric/Ghost). Keldeo is then free to spam powerful Water-type attacks, and they are still very powerful even without a boost from rain. It may also be of help to also pair it with a Psychic-type, like Celebi or Latios, as there are some counters of Keldeo that Tyranitar struggles with, like Tentacruel, Toxicroak, Venusaur and Amoongus. As you can see, all of them are Poison-types, which means that a Psychic-type would be able to easily dispose of them. Celebi is recommended because it can also defeat bulky Water-types, and can counter opposing Keldeo.

 

[RaikouLover]

Switching gears for a second, can I ask why so many people hate on Calm Mind Keldeo? I've used it a lot and I can say for sure that it's super useful. After a Calm Mind you get the power of specs but you can switch moves and you have more special defense. Obviously it's not immediate, so specs might be quicker, but I really do think Calm Mind Keldeo is useful. Anyone?

Calm Mind Keldeo is a monster. However, it is checked quite easily. It is a very good traditional sweeper but it has solid checks and counters across the board. For the purpose of this thread, it is a good set but nothing about it screams Uber.

It truly, in my opinion, comes down to who is the better player (lest it comes down to gimmicks) when determining what will outlast what, but I'm not entirely sure which side that argues for (counters can be counters, tornadus can get past them). If anything it portrays tornadus as a "normal" pokemon: powerful if played well, not as much if not. But at the same time, its job is noticeably easier to perform than most other pokemon.



His point, from what I gathered, is that what makes tornadus stand out as being so good is that it is so great, even though it is incredibly predictable, in that it can rely on sheer force rather than crafty playing to accomplish what it needs to do.

I guess the question that we've been tackling in that discussion is how do you quantify that as Uber? By traditional Uber status, the pokemon's advantage should be so great and learning curve so small that it is as simple as spam a move / tactic and the reward is extremely high for using that pokemon compared to the risk. Tornadus-T certainly isn't quite as risky as most things in OU because of Regenerator, but there is some risk using him as he is easily OHKOed and has poor defensive typing when switching in. That is one of the biggest knocks against him being OU. I just never found him that much more advantageous than anything else in the tier, he just happens to fit really well on my current team because he is a great revenge killer (his best attribute).

lol pooty-poo



How is Dugtrio not a fix? You act like Jirachi is immortal or something, but there isn't much it can do if Dugtrio/Magnezone are on the team. I have never lost a match to Jirachi with Magnezone on my team, Body Slam only does like 12% (Iron Head does like 7% lol) so unless Jirachi has U-Turn (and if it does it gives up protect) it loses.

Torn-T is not a sweeper lol. It's a wall breaker/cleaner, depending on the opponent's team. Often times I won't send it out until there's 3-4 pokemon left on the opponents team, and by then they are all weakened/frail enough to beat. Its as easy as getting Jirachi down to around 50% (or trapping) and cleaning up. Often that's all it takes to use Torn-T effectively. Rotom-W/Zapdos just makes it even easier.

Dugtrio is a decent fix for Tornadus-T getting past Jirachi.. but we figure that an "Uber" shouldn't require another pokemon just to do what it does. That is the main argument in defense of the "pro-OU camp" Does that make sense? You can't really say "Pokemon A is Uber because it's best hard counter I can defeat with Pokemon B" because that argument can apply to so many sweepers in the tier. I also question how you are so easily getting past Rotom-W. I've been using Specs and it takes a couple times to get past Rotom-W. If you don't see Leftovers you can't just press U-turn because it could be Scarf. Either way, Rotom-W forced you out (counter). Zapdos I don't understand at all how people are saying loses to Tornadus-T. Tornadus doesn't do shit to it without confusion Hax as it just uses Roost every time.

 

[Wizarus]

Dugtrio is a decent fix for Tornadus-T getting past Jirachi.. but we figure that an "Uber" shouldn't require another pokemon just to do what it does. That is the main argument in defense of the "pro-OU camp" Does that make sense? You can't really say "Pokemon A is Uber because it's best hard counter I can defeat with Pokemon B" because that argument can apply to so many sweepers in the tier. I also question how you are so easily getting past Rotom-W. I've been using Specs and it takes a couple times to get past Rotom-W. If you don't see Leftovers you can't just press U-turn because it could be Scarf. Either way, Rotom-W forced you out (counter). Zapdos I don't understand at all how people are saying loses to Tornadus-T. Tornadus doesn't do shit to it without confusion Hax as it just uses Roost every time.

That's not exactly true. Every banned pokemon or combination that was rain related required the mediocre Politoed to function. Genetrio no doubt influenced the Genesect ban as well.

Rotom-W can switch in once if it's Choiced and twice if it's Specially Defensive. Regenerator mitigates damage lost, especially if Tentacruel is on the team. Zapdos is terrible in BW2 outside of countering Tornadus-T.

 

[BdB4445]

I have something to add to the "keep Tornadus-T in OU" group. Manual Rain Dance teams with Swift Swimmers are more viable than ever, and well-built ones demolish Drizzle teams.

I'm sure they do well against Drizzle teams considering they are allowed to use Swift Swim under the opponent's permanent weather.

 

[alamaster]

Dugtrio is a decent fix for Tornadus-T getting past Jirachi.. but we figure that an "Uber" shouldn't require another pokemon just to do what it does. That is the main argument in defense of the "pro-OU camp" Does that make sense? You can't really say "Pokemon A is Uber because it's best hard counter I can defeat with Pokemon B" because that argument can apply to so many sweepers in the tier. I also question how you are so easily getting past Rotom-W. I've been using Specs and it takes a couple times to get past Rotom-W. If you don't see Leftovers you can't just press U-turn because it could be Scarf. Either way, Rotom-W forced you out (counter). Zapdos I don't understand at all how people are saying loses to Tornadus-T. Tornadus doesn't do shit to it without confusion Hax as it just uses Roost every time.

Basically what's been said by Wizarus is right. Torn-T doesn't necessarily need Dugtrio or anything, but it only makes its job easier (as if it wasn't easy enough already). It has been established many times in this thread that Rotom-W can only switch in 2-3 times before it can't anymore. Same goes for Zapdos really, it is basically forced to Roost everytime it switches in, making it easy to just switch to something else.

 

[RaikouLover]

Basically what's been said by Wizarus is right. Torn-T doesn't necessarily need Dugtrio or anything, but it only makes its job easier (as if it wasn't easy enough already). It has been established many times in this thread that Rotom-W can only switch in 2-3 times before it can't anymore. Same goes for Zapdos really, it is basically forced to Roost everytime it switches in, making it easy to just switch to something else.

I guess I don't follow how this relates to an Uber argument. *Confused Face*

 

[oSeasons]

Seems like a lot of people are stating that zapdos is the best counter for tornadus-t. Question is, how many people are actually willing to put zapdos in to their team for the sole purpose of countering 1 pokemon? Outside of countering tornadus, it is pretty much out-classed by better pokemon.

 

[Vemane]

Seems like a lot of people are stating that zapdos is the best counter for tornadus-t. Question is, how many people are actually willing to put zapdos in to their team for the sole purpose of countering 1 pokemon? Outside of countering tornadus, it is pretty much out-classed by better pokemon.

Zapdos does far more than most people are /theorizing/ it does. No, it does not hit like a paper bag with a stab base 125 spatt (even univestef) 120 bp thunder with a paralysis chance as large as scald's. It takes like 25% from specs tornadus, it laughs ots as off at life orb (as most things do). T can also counter thundurus-t (huge rain threat) and lando-i (to an extent) as well as many special attackers. Don't give a shit bout scizor and co., pressure is lovely, can u-turn/volt switch, doesnt care about venusaur, loves those choiced eqs, etc

 

[Gehenna]

Zapdos does far more than most people are /theorizing/ it does.

I'm going to agree with you here and say that, after testing, Zapdos isn't nearly as bad as I expected. He's a great answer to many of rain's threats, and he's nearly as good as Jirachi (perhaps a little better because of instant recovery with Roost) for handling Tornadus. When I tested him I used 252 Hp/252 Sp. Def and he can tank a hit rather well (though Keldeo's Pump still hurts like hell). Not sure where this leaves Tornadus though, as most of the people I faced using Tornadus seemed to be in a "always use Hurricane even though Zapdos is obviously going to switch in" mentality.

i think that latios is the best for ou because it can take a fair amount of hits and it's faster than most pokemon. it all depends on what moveset you give it. i won't even name one because there are so many good options. but include dragon dance in all of them. :)

Dude what does this have to do with anything