Guess how many rain teams run perish song politoad? Not many. And perish song is cockblocked by mr. mime. You're also missing the point if you believe taunt shuts down baton pass, espeon is on BP teams precisely for that role. BP is a legitimate strategy that can beat a wide array of teams, particularly bulky offense and stall. Espeon is the face of BP, on top of having great offensive presence, and being a great deoxys-d counter and one of the best DS users, that's why it deserves B rank.
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OU The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
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Guess how many rain teams run perish song politoad? Not many. And perish song is cockblocked by mr. mime. You're also missing the point if you believe taunt shuts down baton pass, espeon is on BP teams precisely for that role. BP is a legitimate strategy that can beat a wide array of teams, particularly bulky offense and stall. Espeon is the face of BP, on top of having great offensive presence, and being a great deoxys-d counter and one of the best DS users, that's why it deserves B rank.
Now obviously we don't know this for sure, but I feel like Rotom-W's gonna drop from A (not too far, probably to B). He's still good for a bulky VoltTurn core, but his raison d'être was a great counter to Tornadus-T. It's not his only role, but it was the reason for his inclusion on many teams. I mean, his usage stats in the late BW meta were mediocre, until we got the B2W2 threats; of those he primariky did well against Tornadus-T.
And no, Tornadus-I will not usurp his brother's throne. He's a very different Pokemon who must play very differently. More powerful, but slower, frailer, and Prankster over Regenerator.
And no, Tornadus-I will not usurp his brother's throne. He's a very different Pokemon who must play very differently. More powerful, but slower, frailer, and Prankster over Regenerator.
June 2012, before BW2 released:
| 5 | Rotom-W | 51599 | 18.649% | 46383 | 20.345% |
July 2012, after BW2 released:
| 12 | Rotom-Wash | 38518 | 11.515% | 24714 | 12.355% |
December 2012, now:
| 10 | Rotom-Wash | 110533 | 11.495% | 95702 | 12.305% |
His usage will probably drop a bit but not too much. He's a good stop to Rain, regardless of Tornadus-T. He still handles many top threats well including Politoed, Heatran and Scizor, so I'd say he still deserves his position in A.
With Tornadus-T gone it will probably also mean seeing more variations of Rotom-W instead of only seeing specially defensive. Remember Rotom-W is still good with Choice sets (specs and scarf) as well as his bulky attacker set. While his usage may go down, his unpredictability should go up a bit, which will be nice.
I would like to nominate Azumarill for C-rank. This thing can blast through unprepared teams, even outside of rain.
It has an extremely powerful stab in waterfall, a great priority move in aqua jet, and good coverage moves in ice punch, superpower, and return.
Here are some damage calculations:
As you can see, Azumarill can blast through even the bulkiest of OU pokemon, rain or shine, thus deserving at least a C-rank.
It has an extremely powerful stab in waterfall, a great priority move in aqua jet, and good coverage moves in ice punch, superpower, and return.
Here are some damage calculations:
252Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill (+Atk) Waterfall in Sun vs 252HP/4Def Leftovers Ninetales (Neutral): 86% - 101% (302 - 356 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 11% chance to OHKO.
252Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill (+Atk) Waterfall in Rain vs 252HP/236Def Leftovers Tentacruel (+Def): 46% - 55% (170 - 201 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 7% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.
252Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill (+Atk) Waterfall in Rain vs 252HP/4Def Leftovers Deoxys (Neutral): 77% - 91% (237 - 279 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill (+Atk) Waterfall in Rain vs 252HP/236Def Leftovers Tentacruel (+Def): 46% - 55% (170 - 201 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 7% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.
252Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill (+Atk) Waterfall in Rain vs 252HP/4Def Leftovers Deoxys (Neutral): 77% - 91% (237 - 279 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
As you can see, Azumarill can blast through even the bulkiest of OU pokemon, rain or shine, thus deserving at least a C-rank.
I'm wondering if it would be possible to include a brief description in the OP for each Pokemon explaining why they've received their ranks? It would be very helpful for people wondering why they've receive their ranks without having to scroll through this megathread.
If it wouldn't be too much trouble for the TC I would love this as well.
I'd like to nominate Scrafty for C Rank. Now, as my name says it, I use this thing, and it works pretty well. He's a pretty damn good DD user; his Speed reaches a pretty fine level, outspeeding 111 Speed by one point, which is pretty neat. He also has Moxie and great coverage in just two moves, so he can definitely pull off a nice sweep. Scrafty also enjoys the fact that the broken as fuck Tornadus-T is now Uber, so this job can be pulled off more easily. The BU set is still somewhat decent, although like CM Reuniclus, it doesn't really stand up to the offensive pressure of this meta, though from my experience, it is still very workable. Of course, Scrafty has his crippling flaws that make him C Rank, that is, a pisspoor Speed stat, meaning even with a boost, there are things that are faster than him, namely Starmie and Scarf Terrakion (does anyone use this thing?). Also, he just doesn't hit hard enough initially, so his inability to hit hard right off the bat does say something. Also, because he NEEDS to set up, Jirachi can cripple him. Not to mention Hippowdon and Skarmory can take a beating from this thing all day. Scrafty certainly has his flaws and this needs support, like Deo-D, as well as a way to deal with the faster speedsters and such. Of course though, Scrafty still has the potential to wreck shit when supported properly, and thus is worthy of at least C Rank.
While scrafty seems to work well in theory, in practice it's actually very disappointing. It is neutral to basically all priority and weak to mach punch / vacuum wave, so it's easy to pick it off. Even at +1, as you said, a ton of stuff outspeeds it even unboosted. Way more than you mentioned in fact--starmie, base 120s such as alakazam, weavile and stuff. And basically EVERY scarfer--including, as you said, scarfkion, but also scarfdeo, mence, chomp, even scarftoed. It has low base HP and, even though its defenses are decent, without investment it gets OHKOed by powerful attacks. Fighting attacks are extremely common in this meta as well, so it has a hard time setting up. Even if it does, it still lacks the raw power to break through walls. For example, a +1 LO ice punch vs standard gliscor has only a 50% chance to OHKO--this is a 4x effective +1 LO attack! Max defense gliscor has only an 18% chance to be KOed. Crunch meanwhile does barely 40% to this same gliscor. I can see scrafty as D tier, but even C tier is honestly too high for it imo.
Ahem.
Alrighty, I'm usually a nice guy and all, but I'm going to say D-Rank is too low for Scrafty. Scrafty does have flaws that make him very hard to use, yes. He is somewhat weak and slow even with the boost, but Scrafty can wreck teams. While Scrafty does get wrecked by the myriad of Fighters before the boost, he can pull off a nice sweep with the proper support. Because Scrafty usually cannot hit hard enough after a single boost, Deo-D support is necessary to ensure Scrafty does get those KO's that allow him to get dem Moxie boosts. He also needs some teammates to help him deal with some shit before he gets going. Of course, every Scarfer and some things like Starmie, Zam, and shit can outspeed him (but the things that naturally outspeed him really can't do much damage back to him in return.) Scrafty also needs to come in on, say, CBTar or ScarfGar, to get the boost in time.
But my point is here, with the proper support and timing, and skilled play, there is very little that can stop Scrafty from devastating the team in a moment's notice. Scrafty may have trouble frequently, but with smart playing, enough support (which Scrafty needs TONS of), and all that, Scrafty is more than capable of pulling his weight.
"Pokemon that can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from being effective or are completely eclipsed by Pokemon in the higher tiers."
Sounds like Scrafty to me.
Also, I'd say this pants lizard fares better in OU than the two current D-Rank Pokemon; Chandelure and Kabutops, who really are so damn niche it's not even funny. Then again, Scrafty is admittedly up to par with the other C-Rankers like Sandslash and Metagross IMO.
But that's just from my experience from using this guy recently.
I vote Lucario for A rank as it's Swords Dance + Nasty Plot set poses a huge threath to nearly anything in OU. Lucario also have a really nice typing in Steel/Fighting, and everyone knows that Steel/Fighting are really good offensive types in OU, also Lucario resist Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes, but are still vulnerable to spikes which arent that big off an flaw. While also resisting Mamoswine's Ice Shard, and Scizor's Bullet Punch are really good for a sweeper as beeing vulnerable to priority sucks, also Lucario beats Breloom as +2 Extremespeed easely ohko's (I dont know about 252 atk, LO as sdam calc wont work for me). The things that draws it back is that Lucario is quite frail, and there are some walls that can handle him nicely which mean Lucario just doesnt hit hard enough sometimes, but don't let that let you down as Lucario can easely wreak havoc mid/late game, and its typing let him setup on some walls quite easly.
Lucario can only sweep with Deod in my experiences -- +2 misses so many KOs without it. Luke also suffers from move-slot syndrome; which is quite a pain. It has horrible bulk and a shallow speed tier; jolly just isn't worth it :c
I just find Luke outclassed mostly. A lot of other things are threatening mid or late game too. Luke's only niche is on a priority core imo. Also, that steel typing is lol because it can't 1hko w/o +2 and it can't ever switch into more than one dragon attack that isn't specs with hazards (because specs tios w/ hazards should 1hko...) It heavily relies on team support too, unlike other pokes in OU.
I just find Luke outclassed mostly. A lot of other things are threatening mid or late game too. Luke's only niche is on a priority core imo. Also, that steel typing is lol because it can't 1hko w/o +2 and it can't ever switch into more than one dragon attack that isn't specs with hazards (because specs tios w/ hazards should 1hko...) It heavily relies on team support too, unlike other pokes in OU.
Scrafty is not even close to C rank. D rank is as high as it should go. First off, it's too weak and too slow after a boost, which is pretty bad. Why use something that is still piss weak even after a boost and has trouble outspeeding non scarf pokemon? There's no advantage to use scrafty over pokemon like salamence and keldeo. It can't do shit to stall teams, both skarmory and hippowdon phase it while taking almost nothing. Balanced teams have pokemon like breloom and that destroy it. While offensive teams have pokemon that can outspeed and ko. On top of all of that, it's outlcassesd by conkeldurr as a bulk up user due to having much more power and priority. It's also outclassed as a dragon dance user by gyarados and dragonite, both of these pokemon can actually break through walls and are incredibly threatening after a boost. D rank if not E rank is were scrafty belongs. There's no reason to use it over any other fighting type in ou.
I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before, and the general consensus deemed Lucario to be at best B-Rank. Lucario is more or less a one trick pony; its SD set is its only thing going for it. Lucario is also very frail and has a disappointing Speed stat, meaning he sometimes just dies before that boost. Sure, it has those resisitances, but it is just too frail to use them effectively. For example, even Haxorus and Kyurem-B Outrage come close to OHKOing Lucario. And that is with CB. Also, faster stuff like Tornadus, Thundurus-T, Terrakion, Keldeo, and Garchomp can take advantage if it hasn't set up yet and can OHKO. And as I had said earlier, Lucario is a one trick pony. As soon as you see it, you know just what to do. Don't get me wrong, I like Lucario, and he is in fact a massive threat in this meta. Its just that for the aforementioned reasons, Lucario is at the highest a B-Rank Pokemon.
EDIT: Lol at above post. E-Rank should only be reserved for Evire and Whimsi. You kids are seriously overexaggerating Scrafty's so-called "mediocrity" in this meta. And besides, being merely outclassed justifies C-Rank. Even then, I seriously don't know about Scrafty's ranking. Still, that above post is possibly the most hilarious thing I have ever read. Come on now, Scrafty CAN be effective with proper support, and being outclassed could mean at highest C. Look at Metagross. You can't justify using it over Rachi or Zong. At all. But it's still alright at what it does, and it's C. (But as I said, I am unsure of Scrafty's rightful ranking.)
Cloyster for A Rank
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.
How can Cloyster NOT sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame? There arent many pokemon that can really wall it. After a shell smash it can sweep every dragon and score ohkos on the majoirty of OU pokemon. Some pokemon like Keldeo and defensive Rotom/Politoed give it trouble. Under the right circumstances it can get off two shell smashes and become even more unstoppable. It will still have trouble with Keldeo but what pokemon in A tier doesn't have trouble with a pokemon or two
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.
How can Cloyster NOT sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame? There arent many pokemon that can really wall it. After a shell smash it can sweep every dragon and score ohkos on the majoirty of OU pokemon. Some pokemon like Keldeo and defensive Rotom/Politoed give it trouble. Under the right circumstances it can get off two shell smashes and become even more unstoppable. It will still have trouble with Keldeo but what pokemon in A tier doesn't have trouble with a pokemon or two
This was proposed during Tornadus-T's reign but the discussion kinda just fizzled out so I would like to repropose this:
Landorus to S Rank
Special RP Landorus is one of, if not the, best sweeper in the current metagame. This thing is so ridiculously powerful that with Sheer Force and LO, it hits around 610 Special Attack, while still retaining the ability to change moves. Ground also has excellent neutral and super effective coverage in the meta, hitting many specially defensive walls such as Jirachi really hard. It also has an unorthodox yet weirdly effective set of coverage moves. Focus Blast deals with Skarmory and other levitating steels, as well as dealing heavy damage to Rotom-W and the like. While HP Ice is incredibly good for sweeping weakened teams with Dragons and Grass types on them, I've actually been using Sludge Wave over, and I must say that it is absolutely amazing. Landorus can do upwards of 80% to Defensive Celebi, one of its best counters with any other move. It can also 2HKO Latios after rocks. While Poison is kind of a terrible offensive typing, it lets Landorus have a neutral coverage move that can be helpful in many situations. What I described above makes Landorus sound like a generic superpowerful mon with no coverage, Landorus's ridiculous ability to both wallbreak and sweep is what makes the special set so good. I mean, it can 2HKO Blissey with a non-STAB Focus Blast after SR.
While Landorus's special set is the best set and the most common one as well, the fact that it can still run a variety of extremely effective physical sets is what pushes it into S-Rank. Say you switch in your Celebi or Latios to take a hit, but then you get hit with a Scarf U-Turn. Its still one of the best revenge killers on sand teams with its physical scarf set. And to add to this, it can even bluff that set with an Expert Belt set. Finally, it has different varieties of Swords Dance sets, such as SubSD and SD+3 Attacks, that are still viable, though not as effective as in BW1. Landorus is such a powerful and effective pokemon that I think it deserves S-Rank. Many people even feel that its broken, which while I might not agree with that, still attests to its effect on the metagame. Its ability as a late game sweepers is unsurpassed in terms of the current metagame.
P.S. Don't use Timid on Special Lando
EDIT: I forgot to talk about tons of other options on a few sets, such as Substitute or U-turn on the special sets, but I think this simply further supports Landorus' insane versatility.
Landorus to S Rank
Special RP Landorus is one of, if not the, best sweeper in the current metagame. This thing is so ridiculously powerful that with Sheer Force and LO, it hits around 610 Special Attack, while still retaining the ability to change moves. Ground also has excellent neutral and super effective coverage in the meta, hitting many specially defensive walls such as Jirachi really hard. It also has an unorthodox yet weirdly effective set of coverage moves. Focus Blast deals with Skarmory and other levitating steels, as well as dealing heavy damage to Rotom-W and the like. While HP Ice is incredibly good for sweeping weakened teams with Dragons and Grass types on them, I've actually been using Sludge Wave over, and I must say that it is absolutely amazing. Landorus can do upwards of 80% to Defensive Celebi, one of its best counters with any other move. It can also 2HKO Latios after rocks. While Poison is kind of a terrible offensive typing, it lets Landorus have a neutral coverage move that can be helpful in many situations. What I described above makes Landorus sound like a generic superpowerful mon with no coverage, Landorus's ridiculous ability to both wallbreak and sweep is what makes the special set so good. I mean, it can 2HKO Blissey with a non-STAB Focus Blast after SR.
While Landorus's special set is the best set and the most common one as well, the fact that it can still run a variety of extremely effective physical sets is what pushes it into S-Rank. Say you switch in your Celebi or Latios to take a hit, but then you get hit with a Scarf U-Turn. Its still one of the best revenge killers on sand teams with its physical scarf set. And to add to this, it can even bluff that set with an Expert Belt set. Finally, it has different varieties of Swords Dance sets, such as SubSD and SD+3 Attacks, that are still viable, though not as effective as in BW1. Landorus is such a powerful and effective pokemon that I think it deserves S-Rank. Many people even feel that its broken, which while I might not agree with that, still attests to its effect on the metagame. Its ability as a late game sweepers is unsurpassed in terms of the current metagame.
P.S. Don't use Timid on Special Lando
Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Sludge Wave
- Rock Polish
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Sludge Wave
- Rock Polish
EDIT: I forgot to talk about tons of other options on a few sets, such as Substitute or U-turn on the special sets, but I think this simply further supports Landorus' insane versatility.
You're overestimating Cloyster's sweeping potential. Not only is it very difficult to get an opportunity to set up with it, but there are still several things that can revenge kill it even after it's +2. Some major things that stop it from fulfilling its role are bulky waters, Ferrothorn, Scarfed base 110s, Keldeo, and mach punch users, all of which are very common. No competent player is ever going to let you set up 2 shell smashes.
Cloyster is honestly not worthy to consider A-Rank. Yes, he's pretty deadly after a boost, but truth be told: Good Luck getting that boost. Cloyster is damn weak before boosting and usually is liable to lose to any Special Attack Cloyster also has that miserable SR weakness, so he has a hard time. Also, damn Mach Punch exists, so yeah, good luck with that.
Overall, Cloyster is fine in B. It needs a boost, which is rather difficult to get, in order to work.
It's not that hard to get a boost with Cloyster. Just set up on any physical attacker not named Terrakion. Your problem is you're setting up on special attackers.
I pretty much entirely disagree with Cloyster in A. Keldeo and Technician Breloom running amok are not doing it any favors, making it harder to sweep. Cloyster might have high Defense to set up on some Physical attacks, but that's offset by its low HP. That, and physical Fighting-types are literally fucking everywhere. Regardless, powerful STAB physical attacks can still 2HKO Cloyster or even OHKO it with Stealth Rock. For example, Choice Band Haxorus has a 25% chance to OHKO without Stealth Rock and always OHKOes with Stealth Rock. Ain't setting up on that. CB Kyurem-B's Outrage does 98% minimum, and Fusion Bolt always OHKOes. Not setting up on that either. Granted, these are some of the most powerful attacks in OU, but similarly powerful attacks are still dealing a fuck ton of damage to Cloyster, and these powerful attacks aren't exactly uncommon. Then there's the point when it does set up on a physical attack it can set up on. You're going to have to put up with either piss-poor bulk on both ends (making it easier to revenge with priority, which is everywhere) if you run Life Orb or decidedly poor damage output if you run White Herb. Cloyster is fine where it is.
Except Cloyster sets up on more offensive mons than breloom.. just FYI it can set up on garchomp, gliscor, mamoswine, choice locked physical attacks, especially choiced ice attacks used to revenge its dragon partners (if you aint using cloyster without least 1 dragon, you're doing it wrong). Breloom can pretty much only set up on slower or bulky mons that can't ohko it..
Also FYI cloyster gets ice shard to surprise breloom and future scarfed serperior.. you don't have to run razor shell if you're using kings rock as your item... 40% flinch rate isn't easy to mess around with and will help you break past common counters such as Keldeo more often than you would think. Clutch 10% flinch on ice shard can be so funny as well, but its only happened once to me as I got a final hit in before a scizor BP'd and then the next shard koed!
I've had great success everytime I used cloyster, it's somewhere between A and B imo, but more towards B.
Also FYI cloyster gets ice shard to surprise breloom and future scarfed serperior.. you don't have to run razor shell if you're using kings rock as your item... 40% flinch rate isn't easy to mess around with and will help you break past common counters such as Keldeo more often than you would think. Clutch 10% flinch on ice shard can be so funny as well, but its only happened once to me as I got a final hit in before a scizor BP'd and then the next shard koed!
I've had great success everytime I used cloyster, it's somewhere between A and B imo, but more towards B.
The difference is that Breloom has Spore, which makes setting up much easier. Breloom doesn't even need to set up anyway. It also has this cool thing called priority. Speaking of, I did mention that it revenges Cloyster with ease, right? Okay. Also, setting up on Garchomp? Uhh....
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 175-207 (72.61 - 85.89%)
Have fun with that one. You'll just be left weakened enough to be picked off by priority. From my experience Cloyster can only really set up on weaker physical attackers. You aren't even setting up on Mamoswine reliably because Jolly LO Superpower is doing 85% minimum. Gliscor? Well, I'll give you that one. Point is, Cloyster is just not that easy to set up in this metagame.
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 175-207 (72.61 - 85.89%)
Have fun with that one. You'll just be left weakened enough to be picked off by priority. From my experience Cloyster can only really set up on weaker physical attackers. You aren't even setting up on Mamoswine reliably because Jolly LO Superpower is doing 85% minimum. Gliscor? Well, I'll give you that one. Point is, Cloyster is just not that easy to set up in this metagame.
So does Cloyster.
Edit: Although re-reading the discussion I agree with you that he should B rank.
Is it just me or does Landorus-T totally deserve A-Rank? It's a fantastic pivot for Voltturn cores, counters Terrakion (huge deal), and has a strong enough offensive presence to prevent it from being set-up bait for all kinds of sweepers. It has a similar role as Gliscor, but I think that its amazing attack stat gives it an edge. Thoughts, everyone?
I agree with you, Landorus-T is currently my most used physical check, i'm surprised it's not top 20 in this meta as it can be incredibly useful at times, check's a lot of physical threats all 'ver the place.
Intimidate + big attack + EQ/Uturn/Edge + useable hp ice + SR slot makes it a GREAT check to just about every physical threat in the current meta and a great utility poke.
Intimidate + big attack + EQ/Uturn/Edge + useable hp ice + SR slot makes it a GREAT check to just about every physical threat in the current meta and a great utility poke.
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