np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard

[HabibsHotDogs]

Again in bold

You made the comparision first not I, nor am I claiming that Deoxys-D has beter support that Politoed. I was merely stating that I personally have an easier time vs Politoed and a harder time vs Deoxys-D whereas you are the opposite. Relax.

Yeah, except you're probably "restricting your teambuilding process" to be able to deal with Politoed and friends as well

Don't try and deflect, your argument was not "Ill use CB Chomp to beat Deoxys-D" (that was point 2) it was to make a team that doesn't mind SR (and I assume Hazards). I don't really care tbh if you made a successful Levitator / Flying team, the fact is its limiting on your teambuilding process, and id even consider that an arguement FOR a Deoxys-D ban.

Deo-D is good at what it does, but is not unstoppable nor impossible to deal with, what I gave were examples of dealing with deo-d, if you care to quote the rest you will see I had a lot more than "a team that doesn't mind SR"



Yea but Psychic Politoed is nowhere near as common as Mental Herb Deoxys-D (I couldn't even find Psychic on Politoeds moveset stats just to show how rare it was). You don't really "lose" to Zam either imo (what item would you use anyway to beat Zam / Gengar???) since Shadow Ball is only a 3KO giving you time to get up SR and break the Zam sub so idk, ,are you using LO Zam or something since most of the ones I see are sash :/

Doesn't have to be psychic politoed, what about hp grass heatran failing to deal with dragons, there are a plethora of other examples. LO Zam threatens the majority of a Deo-D's team as they tend to be sweepers/wallbreakers as opposed to bulky tanks/Jirachi, Gengar has a clean 2hko. As for the set of thunder wave/taunt/SR/spikes with a mental herb, it will have its limitations!! Edit: Zam was just an example, what about your precious set being countered by a u-turn/v switch to a magic bounce or a trick or basically any faster set-up mon/trick

Deo-D is good at what it does and despite being a one trick pony manages to maintain a position in OU. You are basically using this "unpredictability" card because she has approximately 8 or 9 viable moves she squeezes into 4 (2) slots and 4 or 5 viable items to choose from to be effective.

But she is still:

MOSTLY used as a lead
MOSTLY accompanied by the same team archetype
MOSTLY going to attempt to accomplish one goal
MOSTLY have the same 2 moves on every set

edit: I'd like to add, Deo-S WAS broken because she had a surefire taunt, ignored scarfers for the most part, had guaranteed screens or SR and otherwise could do pretty much anything as a lead with very few ways to stop her, deo-d has quite a lot of ways and can't deal with all of them with only 2 moves and an item

GINGANINA EDIT I Know you had other ways of beating Deo listed before, I was pointing out that some of them were flawed. Let it be man.

 

[Lee]

^ the same can be said of Deo-S and we still kicked his ass to the curb. the sad reality is Deo-D is actually better at his job in many ways than Deo-S ever was so it seems hypocritical to ban one and spare the other. I feel as though the fault lies not with the Deoxys formes but with the gamebreaking differences in quality and quantity of hazard layers and rapid spinners but unfortunately we can only deal with the hand we're dealt...

 

[Ojama]

Deo-D is supposed to be banned since BW1 ... When Deo-S got banned we had to ban Deo-D as well since Deo-D is in my opinion better than Deo-S as a Spiker due to its fantastic bulk. It's also quite fast (306 isn't that bad) and even if you bring a Taunter nothing forbids it to come back later on the field and set up its shit. Also, Deo-D gets Magic Coat which helps it to beat fast taunter. Only CBTar is a real answer to Deo-D since it OHKO it with Crunch ( fuck Sableye), though Deo-D is faster than Tyranitar and can set up Stealth Rock before dying.

 

[kniteowl]

I don't play OU much but skimming through the thread, wouldn't a choiced trick user be a solid check to Deo-D? As a Choiced locked Deo-D is a dead weigh, although any smart player would see a trick user putting Deo-D at the disadvantage from a mile away, it still puts pressure on Deo-D as to predict a possible trick or not.

Once Deo-D is tricked/switcheroo and is choiced lock. The regular methods for Deo-D to counter it's other checks are gone.

Mental Herb? doesn't have it anymore
Magic Coat? Trick by passes it and is a dead weight move when choiced lock
Taunt? Only matters if Deo-D is faster but is your trick user is carrying a choice scarf it won't matter
Skill Swap Deo-D ruin magic bounce? Meet Choice scarf/specs Espeon with trick, which also bypasses your stolen magic bounce, although choice Espeon is probably un-viable in the tier, it is still a nasty surprise.

Although not every team will carry a choice user with access to trick and requires a bit of luck and prediction.

and the usual 4MSS arguement.... I maybe I should actually play with Deo-D before giving my opinion but it doesn't seem broken on paper... maybe I'm wrong ( i won't deny that lol)

 

[Lee]

^except if it uses Spikes first turn, and then it'll happily stay in and keep using Spikes until you kill it or force it out at which point it can easily come in again later and throw out another hazard. Tricking him isn't that much of an inconvenience provided he doesn't get locked into Taunt or w/e - it just trades some tactical flexibility for a free layer of hazards and Deo-D is all about the hazards after all.

 

[Blinder]

Time to throh my two cents in.
Deo-D is great at getting hazards up, it the opponent allows it. However, in my time using it on the OU ladder on showdown, I was a little underwhelmed with it. It usually only got up rocks and a single layer of spikes before something wrecked it, and with the sudden prominence of rapid spinners in OU, those hazards were gone pretty quickly. Nowadays, I haven't been seeing Deo-D around much, but I usually handle it pretty easily and quickly.
Personally, I believe that Deo-D should not be banned.

 

[BKC]

yo to all the people who say that we're too "ban-happy" - smogon's goal is to get as close to the ideal metagame as possible, i.e. one where the better player will usually win; the number of bans needed to achieve this metagame is completely arbitrary. of course less bans are preferred but "having less bans" is not an argument towards not banning something that's clearly bad for the game.

my thoughts on the actual suspect: thank god this piece of shit's (probably) going to get kicked out. deo-d is an easy way for bad players to get fast sr + spikes & just roll over their opponent with no thinking required. definitely not something that can exist in a balanced metagame!

 

[Shurtugal]

Deo-S was not banned for its Hazard set so please stop making it sound like it was. It's LO 4+ attack set was the most broken, not needing to set up or run scarf prior to outpace everything in the metagame with near perfect coverage.

Also, Deo-S is one-hundered times better than Deo-D. It's speed tier made it a utility Revenge Killer, and its Psycho Boost actually hurt (see SubSalac Terrakion).

Deo-D teams need way too much support, imo, to be considered for banning. If DeoD was a standalone lead, and considering no support from Teammates, Forrey and Starmie easily shut DeoD down. Hell, even DeoGar (which is necessary support #1) is stopped by either Starmie or Forrey (also, if the Deo player is desperate enough to run Scarf Gar there is a Scarf Starmie for equally desperate players). Jellicent will be brought up so let me say this: Jellicent sucks on HO. Sure, it spinblocks 100 times better (oh wait Toxic Tentacruel exists and LO TBolt Starmie forces you to run the most defensive sack of shit ever.... never mind).

Anyway, just by running DeoD you make yourself the most Sun-weak player in the game. DeoD needs something that can switch and force Venu out (oh wait nothing exists bar Heatran that can do this!) which is more required support.

As for DeoD itself, its manageable. Stop with the hyperbole's people, 4MSS is not bragging anything good and DeoD is actually a Pokemon that can be 2HKO'd by a lot of faster threats, and it does have a counters.

DeoD is not getting past TauntGengar, ever. It's too risky to taunt or magic coat since SB is a 2HKO and you get NO hazards up if you try that, while TWaving could give it a free sub. I feel that its very safe to call this thing a counter since, depending on what you predict, this thing 100% beats it (rarely ever letting it even get rocks up).

DeoD is also countered by SubSalac Terrakion. Those RedCard variants are forced to taunt (not before it sets up +2) while the Twave versions simply hope it doesn't substitute. The RedCard version really can't risk SubSalac Terrakion being lead Terrakion either so Terrakion is a very good check, and somewhat pushing it as a counter.

Scarf Politoed 2HKO with Hydro Pump, Starmie can lead and also 2HK0 with Hydro Pump, hell Scizor can u-turn and go into anything that OHKOs it, Banded Tyranitar OHKOs; my point being that OU has quite a lot for DeoD. I'm not convinced that SR and 1 Layer of spikes is broken (due to the fact that the support itself is not that great while and while it struggles to even set up spikes).

Ok so I'll probably need to read more of the discussion but I am not convinced that this thing is nearly as broken as the other suspects (hell like I said it needs sooo much support).

 

[Deluks917]

The good players who want Deo-D banned should explain to average players who will likely get reqs (like me) why we should ban it. I have barely played against Deo-D on the ladder. It is very uncommon even in say the top100 of the current PS ladder. This is the best representation of high level BW2 some of us have.

Is there any evidence this thing is common at the highest levels of play? How often was it used in SPL (does anyone know)? I know Deo-D was used by McMegan's team to win the last battle Royal.

But this is a sincere question. At the highest level how common is this thing?

 

[Vemane]

Deo-S was not banned for its Hazard set so please stop making it sound like it was. It's LO 4+ attack set was the most broken, not needing to set up or run scarf prior to outpace everything in the metagame with near perfect coverage.

Also, Deo-S is one-hundered times better than Deo-D. It's speed tier made it a utility Revenge Killer, and its Psycho Boost actually hurt (see SubSalac Terrakion).

Not to mention that a HUGE argument for deo-s ban was its unpredictability and speed to match. If you attempted to deal with its hazard set and it used screens you were screwed. If it happened to use lo, you were screwed. It could really do whatever it wanted because its speed allowe the first move

But deo-d simply doesn't have this luxury.

Persnally, I've never been to bothered by opposing hazards with or without spin support, and a layer or two certainly is nothing to write home about.

Not to mention the ease at which you can spin at this point (there's, what, 2 viable ghosts?)

 

[SapphSabre777]

>We just had a long discussion about weather, especially rain, being incredibly dominant

>Deo-D, the only way weatherless teams can actually compete with weather teams, gets suspect tested even though it's not used that often

Oh Smogon, you and your skewed priorities.

Deo-D hyper offense being "the only way weatherless...can actually compete with weather teams..."? I absolutely disagree. There are many ways to beat weather teams, although it may take some time to find the right combination. Deo-D is just an easy thing to attach to weatherless, and the purpose of these test is to ensure the best player wins. But I digress...

As for Deo-D, I am leaning towards a ban here. Deo-D WILL get hazards up. Period. What is worse is that it has moves to counter common Rapid Spinners and Taunt (when it has the tools, of course) and as stated before, there is no reliable way to OHKO it.

 

[Shurtugal]

And Statmie WILL get rid of Hazards, and simply, sun teams WILL beat DeoD

How does Deod beat spinners? Pls tell me the moves it gets lol. Per example, tbolt isn't beating Starmie js.

 

[Soul Fly]

>We just had a long discussion about weather, especially rain, being incredibly dominant

>Deo-D, the only way weatherless teams can actually compete with weather teams, gets suspect tested even though it's not used that often

Oh Smogon, you and your skewed priorities.

Just to add. I play Weatherless offense all the time. It's one of favourite playstyles. I haven't used Deo-D as a hazards setter ever. So implying that we're somehow breaking drizzle more by removing Deo-D isn't in Answer to what we're looking for here.

 

[shrang]

And Statmie WILL get rid of Hazards, and simply, sun teams WILL beat DeoD

How does Deod beat spinners? Pls tell me the moves it gets lol. Per example, tbolt isn't beating Starmie js.

LO Deo-D with Psycho Boost, HP Fire, Thunder and Spikes. I use this set all the time. Tentacruel and Donphan get OHKOed by Psycho Boost, Forretress by HP Fire, and you can go for the 70% shot at OHKOing Starmie with Thunder (you can afford to as well). It's really good, actually.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Deoxys-D should not be banned. There was a reason Speed Deoys was banned. It was bcuz it could revenge, was crazy fast (is stilll faster than most scarfed mons), had decent bulk, and with some boosts (i used it on a Baton pass team) it could sweep teams. It also could always set up at LEAST 1 layer of spikes/Stealth Rock, provided it had a Focus Sash.

Deoxys D lacks any sort of offense, but Extremespeed does surprise some.

 

[Bluwing]

And Statmie WILL get rid of Hazards, and simply, sun teams WILL beat DeoD

How does Deod beat spinners? Pls tell me the moves it gets lol. Per example, tbolt isn't beating Starmie js.

The thing isn't how Deo-D beats Rapid Spinners because it's there to set up the hazards no matter what, and it is incredibly good at doing so. For example: Deo-D uses Stealth Rock and Starmie switches in you're already in a bad position because now you have given the opponent a free switch and you have to start mindgames, lets say the opponent has no spinner but he has LO Weavile, what should you do ? Rapid Spin or Surf/Hydro Pump ? Something small as that can lose you the game if you predict wrong. Next up Sun, well Deo-D can run T-Wave if you're team is mainly weak for Venusaur, it can run Skill Swap for beating Magic Bouncer like Lavos Spawn said, stuff like Xatu sun, basically what im saying is that Deo-D isn't there for beating spinners it has teammates for that and if Starmie manages to spin you can easely save Deo-D for later + you get a free switch, this is why Deo-D is ban worthy you can't really predict what it's going to do and it will always be a mindgame, predict wrong and you lose easy as that.

 

[Soul Fly]

Deo-S was not banned for its Hazard set so please stop making it sound like it was. It's LO 4+ attack set was the most broken, not needing to set up or run scarf prior to outpace everything in the metagame with near perfect coverage.

This.

Also, Deo-S is one-hundered times better than Deo-D. It's speed tier made it a utility Revenge Killer, and its Psycho Boost actually hurt (see SubSalac Terrakion).

Also THIS.

Deo-D teams need way too much support, imo, to be considered for banning. If DeoD was a standalone lead, and considering no support from Teammates, Forrey and Starmie easily shut DeoD down. Hell, even DeoGar (which is necessary support #1) is stopped by either Starmie or Forrey (also, if the Deo player is desperate enough to run Scarf Gar there is a Scarf Starmie for equally desperate players). Jellicent will be brought up so let me say this: Jellicent sucks on HO. Sure, it spinblocks 100 times better (oh wait Toxic Tentacruel exists and LO TBolt Starmie forces you to run the most defensive sack of shit ever.... never mind).

Nitpick here.
Starmie can spin yes. But at the End of the day it hardly can touch Deo-D, for all it cares. It WILL Keep Spamming hazards till you bring in something which can you know? kill it?(and I'm not even considering the mindgames you'd get into if Rapid Spin Triggers a red card or something. Regardless, by bringing out your spinner so early even while their Hazards Setter is alive you're handing the momentum to the guy on a silver platter)

Deo-D dies and it still gets those Hazards out and you now have to deal with Spin blockers (Jellicent is 2-3hkoed btw depending on your starmie set) so it's at a disadvantage from the Shadow Ball Spam.


Tentacruel Works, that's a decent point. But then Deo-D is usually partnered with strong Physical attackers and Tenta Fears Earthquake with its life. then Deo-D is free to come back again and it's business as usual. I won't mention Psycho Boost Deo-D here because hardly anyone carries it afaik. And it would be retarded if they did.

EDIT: Some People Apparently do. Sorry. Please don't take any offense. I'm using last month's stats to make my case here and Psycho Boost was like really really rare. Sorry. Even if they do it just helps the Case for a Deo-D ban
.

Anyway, just by running DeoD you make yourself the most Sun-weak player in the game. DeoD needs something that can switch and force Venu out (oh wait nothing exists bar Heatran that can do this!) which is more required support.

I don't see how that's an issue. I mean how does ANY guy playing weatherless deal with Venusaur without a heatran? I can't vouch for others but I have been doing that for Ages with Volcarona. Venusaur's STABS aren't unmanageable. It either has to 2hko with Solar beam to kill Deo-D and Prevent it from setting up Hazards (and once rocks are out being a sun team automatically puts you to the backfoot) and pray it doesn't have a red card or something. or put it to sleep, activating sleep clause and allowing host of other pokemon to check it.
Volcarona for Example can come in after Sleep Powder and threaten it really bad. Unless it carries Nature Power which doesn't figure in a single standard set unless the user has a severe case of HeatranPhobia.

As for DeoD itself, its manageable. Stop with the hyperbole's people, 4MSS is not bragging anything good and DeoD is actually a Pokemon that can be 2HKO'd by a lot of faster threats, and it does have a counters.

DeoD is not getting past TauntGengar, ever. It's too risky to taunt or magic coat since SB is a 2HKO and you get NO hazards up if you try that, while TWaving could give it a free sub. I feel that its very safe to call this thing a counter since, depending on what you predict, this thing 100% beats it (rarely ever letting it even get rocks up).

Taunt Gengar? Really? Taunt is like the LEAST used move in all gengar sets on OU as of January.

Taunt 3.594%

Yes only 3 percent of All gengar Sets bother to even carry taunt. That's rarer than that semi-pathetic fire gem Deo-D.
If that thing is Pushed up in Usage just to counter Deo-D I'd call it sad because SubDisable is much more superior to it.

DeoD is also countered by SubSalac Terrakion. Those RedCard variants are forced to taunt (not before it sets up +2) while the Twave versions simply hope it doesn't substitute. The RedCard version really can't risk SubSalac Terrakion being lead Terrakion either so Terrakion is a very good check, and somewhat pushing it as a counter.

This is Legit. Still. Close Combat does Jack and Stone Miss is .......stone miss.
But if the dude sees Deo-D in the Preview and sends out Terrakion I'd smell a rat that very second and taunt, because even with band+Stone Miss, it'll do a pathetic 40-55% damage allowing me to get rocks out,

252Atk Choice Band Terrakion (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Deoxys (Neutral): 49% - 58% (151 - 178 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 17% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.


252Atk Choice Band Terrakion (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Deoxys (Neutral): 58% - 69% (178 - 210 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Are two layers bad in the standard Meta? methinks not.

Scarf Politoed 2HKO with Hydro Pump, Starmie can lead and also 2HK0 with Hydro Pump, hell Scizor can u-turn and go into anything that OHKOs it, Banded Tyranitar OHKOs; my point being that OU has quite a lot for DeoD. I'm not convinced that SR and 1 Layer of spikes is broken (due to the fact that the support itself is not that great while and while it struggles to even set up spikes).

Relevant part highlighted.


Are two layers or Hazards broken in itself? Well no.

Are two layers of Hazards broken if you are guaranteed to get them out EVERY SINGLE TIME breaking any useful abilities and items, crippling certain otherwise viable OU pokemon and fucking up Sun offense while turning many 2HKOes into OHKOes in offense play?

Definitely Yes.

 

[Shurtugal]

Your obviously not going to switch Starmie into DeoD when your opponent has Weavile? Your going to kill the suicide lead and find an oppurtunity to spin when weavile isn't on the field (e.g. deod dies and goes to weavile to prevent you from going to starmie so you go into U-turn Jirachi).

Also, your proving my other point -- DeoD needs a spinblock and a Pokemon to deal with Starmie in case the spinblocker dies, which is WAY TOO MUCH SUPPORT. Also, the fact that Weavile is being mentioned is -.- when its like got under 80 usage.

Good Luck keeping DeoD healthy enough to be able to Twave Venu before it kills with Sludge Bomb -.- Oh wait its a suicice hazard lead. Nevermind guess suns winning anyway. Magic Bouncers are rare, and your also proving my other point: 4MSS. Using SS means the sun team can set up with Venu and no TWave means Xatu wins. Yeah your losing to sun kthanks.

Like I said earlier, it needs way too much support JUST TO GET PAST SPINNERS (and for sun), which takes the whole point of abusing hazards when your overpreparing for spinners. DeoD hazards are greatly abused, but its hard when your pratically forced to run so many other Pokemon to beat common checks to DeoD. OU has more than enough to beat OU stop overexaggurating DeoD's ability to beat sun or Starmie.

AND OFCOURSE YOU CAN PREDICT WHATS ITS GOING TO DO. Ever set has Taunt / SR / Spikes / Filler. That "filler" is not exactly something that makes it so hard to not be manageble and gain "unpredictability" status. You want unpredictability? Look at Genesect and DEO-S.


EDIT:
@ Above:

1. Starmie can 2HKO DeoD with Hydro Pump, so there goes spamming hazards.
2. You're only proving my point: DeoD relies too heavily on team support to be broken
3. Ofc being sun weak is an issue. My point is that by using DeoD your usually going to be beaten by sun just like weatherless is, as you point out. My point is how the fuck can it be broken when it has almost zero answers for sun? Its a HUGE push calling it broken when it can barely pass sun playstyles (look at suspect Specs TornT and SD Exca, there weren't really any playstyles that could beat them considering that 1-2HKO all weather inducers. DeoD isn't really broken by any means seriously its not that strong, it struggles past spinners, it struggles with sun, relies too much on support, etc.)
4. TauntGegar is used by lots of good players (also look at DeoD teams in RMT forum, many of them have taunt). TauntGar is just as legitimate as LO attacking DeoD to get past spinners just saying -____-
5. Terrak counters because its either going to taunt you or reveal sub and set up on you. There really isn't anything DeoD can do thanks to risk vs. reward. Also, Band Rak is not used much '-'
6. Like VEmane said, I've never found it an issue to play around 1 Spikes + 1 SR, with or without a spinner. Sure its annoying, but its not broken. Also, it does NOT fuck up sun offense (see Donphan, although you'll bring up Gar, so more support for DeoD I see) and Sun Offense could REALLY CARE LESS since Tales doesnt mind dying since Venu SWEEPS.
7. Drizzle and Drought turn many 2HKOs into OHKOs with boosted STABS. Moot point THANK YOU!

 

[shrang]

Tentacruel Works, that's a decent point. But then Deo-D is usually partnered with strong Physical attackers and Tenta Fears Earthquake with its life. then Deo-D is free to come back again and it's business as usual. I won't mention Psycho Boost Deo-D here because hardly anyone carries it afaik. And it would be retarded if they did.

I used to think exactly the same thing... until I actually started abusing the fuck out of offensive Deo-D. Its stronger than a lot of people give it credit it for. You OHKO Haxorus and Donphan with it, which isn't bad for such a defensively oriented mon.

 

[Soul Fly]

Also, your proving my other point -- DeoD needs a spinblock and a Pokemon to deal with Starmie in case the spinblocker dies, which is WAY TOO MUCH SUPPORT. Also, the fact that Weavile is being mentioned is -.- when its like got under 80 usage.

Good Luck keeping DeoD healthy enough to be able to Twave Venu before it kills with Sludge Bomb -.- Oh wait its a suicice hazard lead. Nevermind guess suns winning anyway. Magic Bouncers are rare, and your also proving my other point: 4MSS. Using SS means the sun team can set up with Venu and no TWave means Xatu wins. Yeah your losing to sun kthanks.

When did I ever Say I intend to TWave Venusaur or Kill Starmie. They're fine to me alive and un-crippled. Starmie doesn't have a decent move to cause any amounts of proper damage, and as I said, even Solar Beam is a 2hko on it that gives Deo-D 3 Moves

1. Get Sun Out
2. Switch to Venu
3. Use Solar Beam
4. Use Solar Beam Again

Oh wait. That just became 4 whole moves.

EDIT@EARLIER EDIT to me EARLY EDIT
Ugh. Editception:

Venusaur Simply doesn't have tools to OHKO Deo-D. And I've already charted out how many, many, and many more OU players beat venusaur regularly in the sun even without heatran. Deo-D isn't meant to stay Alive. 3-4 hazards and it's job is done. you did naught kkthankbye.

About Rain: You're Only talking about Specs Toed and Modest Specs/LO Starmie here, because only they deal the damage you're describing. Most Spin Starmies are Timid, meaning that even with Hydro Pump Deo-D is going to Dish out at least 2 layers. (and that's not considering how Horrible it's accuracy is, so two is the BARE minimum, and that's VERY good).. and 2 GUARANTEED LAYERS are overcentralising. And moot point. Starmie cannot Spin AND go Hyper Offensive in the Same set it's either Lean and Mean or Rain Machine. And without Rain it's a chance 2hko and a guaranteed 3hko.

About TauntGar: Sorry I'm talking about regular OU here which everyone Plays. Even Genesect and Excadrill were walled by very niche sets. Just because good players use it to counter a certain mon doesn't necessarily mean it's going to a thing on the ladder since frankly speaking gengar has way better (and versatile uses) in the team.

About SubSalac Terrak: The Sword dangles over both heads if you're talking about Risk v./ Reward. Terrakion can also be just as easily rendered useless with a single Psycho Boost or a Twave if it predicts wrong. You just cannot conveniently assume the opposition is extremely smart and the guy using Deo-D is a dumb noob. I covered this Earlier how Deo-D is capable of Swaying the risk-v-rewards ratio by a considerable amount. And Band Terrak gets more usage than TauntGar, so I'm seeing nothing as to why I shouldn't mention it, considering it's the only way it can Surprise Deo-D by coming out in the lead.

 

[Shurtugal]

Get Sun Out
Easily beat DeoD
Set up Growth Midgame
GG


When did I ever say to use Venu to kill Deod? I said use Venu to SWEEP Deod. Thanks for reading!

Also, Terrakion used SD as you Taunted. GG

That post before edit was for brostime js, not you

 

[Soul Fly]

Get Sun Out
Easily beat DeoD
Set up Growth Midgame
GG

Well what Venusaur does midgame is no concern of Deo-D. It was supposed to get Hazards out and that it did. Crippling every Fire pokemon in that team. Does Deo-D get his job done? Yes.

It's the same story with every hazard setter. If venusaur cannot SPECIFICALLY exploit Deo-D as set up bait, then the isuue of "Having Deo-D makes you a terribad sun player and doesn't have anything to force out/kill venusaur when it comes out' becomes a moot argument. Deo-D is out of the equation then.

Also, Terrakion used SD as you Taunted. GG

As I said.. BOTH ways. I could just as easily be running a TWave set OR a red card variant. You'll never know.

 

[Arcticblast]

Not going to say much about my opinion on Deoxys-D right now (I'd like to see it gone, but I'll have to play the suspect ladder some more). Just stopping by to say that the move Magic Coat, while not completely stopping Deoxys-D, can hamper the opponent's team by sending Deoxys-D's hazards straight back at it while not being beaten by Skill Swap. If Deoxys-D uses Taunt as you use Magic Coat, unless it's an offensive variant it's going to have to switch out. It's an excellent option to consider on more defensive teams, who can often be hard-pressed to beat Deoxys-D HO.

 

[Shurtugal]

No not true. (@before Articblast)

DeoD teams can't prepare for a Growth Sweep (without over preparing, which proves my too-much-support argument). Also, getting hazards won't cripple Sun teams because the only fire type is usually Ninetales, and possibly Tran / Victini. They won't mind so much BECAUSE Venusaur doesn't care, and Ninetales isn't competing to win the weather war. Sure, it did its job. ITS JOB IS NOT HELPING VS. SUN. Also, Tales did its job by simply setting up the win condition: sun. How else can I express that? 1 Spike + SR is not beating sun since sun will set up Growth on Venu and the DeoD team is now raped. Unless you, off, as I said, go out of your way like running RD to counter it, which is way too much support. You make it seem like SR + Spikes will be enough to beat sun. Its not. Its really hard to beat Venu and THAT WAS MY POINT. *sigh*

Yes you can go both ways, but Risk vs. Reward makes it quite difficult, I said it was a check that I feel is a good push towards counter, but I can't deny that sometimes DeoD will come out on top.

Shrang, when non-invested Psysho Boost can't OHKO Terrakion, I'm worried :x I'm sure you run investment but still, the Tenta player could also over-prepare for DeoD if DeoD wants to over-prepare: Tenta technically has like 100 base speed and could sub before DeoD can Psycho Boost.

 

[Bluwing]

Well what Venusaur does midgame is no concern of Deo-D. It was supposed to get Hazards out and that it did. Crippling every Fire pokemon in that team. Does Deo-D get his job done? Yes.

Agreed.

@Shurtugal

Also when it comes to Venusaur it can easely be revenge killed by stuff like Weavile (And Weavile is a lot used with Deo-D, mainly because of it is an reliably answer for revenge killing Dragons, trapping Psychic types aaaand revenge Venusaur) also Scarf Latios can be used to easely revenge Venusaur as nearly every Venusaur runs Modest. The thing is you are sounding like Deo-D is going to to handle whatever it is no it can't beat sun by it self, and yes it needs support what do you think we got teammates for ? It is amazing at doing what it does and getting those hazards up are making a huge offensive pressure on your opponents team, Starmie is going to have a hard time spinning and when it finds a time spinning you've already lost momentum. Of course is Deo-D predictable I never said it wasn't, but I said it will nearly always be a mindgame. When it comes to Terrakion yes it is a great way to beat Deo-D teams, also TauntGar and Volcarona is, Deo-D isn't unbeatable or impossible to deal with, and I never said it wasn't.