np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard

[RabidChipmunk]

This whole thing is also a heap of wrong, so we kind of got a sort of heap-of-wrong-ception thing going on here, so I'm going to try and fix that.

This is a whole heap of wrong, so let me educate you.

Deoxys-D does nothing to stall teams because Starmie can spin on it all day. Even Tentacruel can barring that Psycho Boost set. You don't need Magic Coat or Taunt to beat Deoxys-D on a stall team, almost any common spinner nowadays beats it. When you have Gengar spinblocking for a lot of these HO teams, it becomes even simpler to spin away hazards. And don't give me "Sash Gengar" bullshit, sand teams have no problem with this and almost all Rain stall teams can get SR up as they proceed to kill Deoxys.

Most HO teams nowadays (or at least the good ones) relegate hazard control to two Pokemon -- notably, Gengar and Weavile. Together, Gengar and Weavile beat every spinner in the game; the only one who stands a chance is Tentacruel, and that's assuming he can get past Gengar and still have enough health left to spin before whatever Pokemon that comes in next can deal with it. And no, Weavile is not a gimmick or a one-trick pony; he's also excellent at revenge killing Dragons and dealing with Magic Bouncers.

No one uses Skill Swap because you remove a moveslot that could be used for something else. If Deoxys-D doesn't have an attacking move like Seismic Toss, any HO team that decides to boost turn 1 wins (I forget what ST9 match I watched this in, but literally it was Deo-D versus Dragonite, and Dragonite DD'd twice and swept the entire Deo-D offensive team, and no two scrubs were not playing).

If the person using Deo-D actually let Dragonite get away with a DD on the first turn, he was definitely a scrub. If my opponent leads with something like Dragonite or Gyarados or what have you, they might as well type the sentence "I'M A SET-UP SWEEPER, PLEASE TAUNT/THUNDER WAVE MY STUPID ASS" in the chatbox. Between Taunt and Thunder Wave, just about no Pokemon can set up on Deoxys-D. The only Pokemon I've encountered that could are SubCM Keldeo and SubSD Terrakion. Both are effortlessly dealt with. I simply set up hazards in their faces while they boost, let them kill me, and then immediately send in Gengar to disable either their Surf or Stone Edge. Boom, the only move they have left is their fighting STAB, so the threat is neutralized and I get a free sub while they switch out.

Didn't respond to the rest of it since it was mostly your opinion, but you get my drift.

 

[CanadianWifier]

Nothing stops it from doing its job. Virtually impossible to OHKO, and it has all the tools it needs to beat its "counters". That alone means it should be banned IMO.

This, basically.


The only things that can OHKO Deo-D 100% of the time are:

Specs Chandelure - Shadow Ball | 101.31 - 120.39%
Banded Hustle Durant - X-Scissor | 113.15 - 134.21%
Banded Adaptability Crawdaunt - Crunch | 118.42 - 140.78%
Specs Flash Fire Heatran - Overheat | 122.69 - 144.4%
Banded Guts Herracross - Megahorn | 136.84 - 161.84%


Other than that, stuff like Banded T-tar sits at 92.71 - 112.47%, so Deo-d can still get up its 2 layers, even against something as powerful as banded T-tar. Not much else listed is viable on an OU standard team in today's meta, outside of maybe specstran. And this is only with a standard "speedy'' spread of 252 HP / 4 Def / 252+ Speed. Basically next to no invested bulk, and it still takes such insane powerhouses as Choice Banded Guts Heracross to knock it out clean. It's next to impossible to stop it from doing its job, which is putting pressure on your team with multiple layers of hazards from Turn 1. On top of that, Deo-d has such a vast movepool, that it has moves to hit the counters that can normally come in and prevent it from setting up hazards/ try to inflict massive damage on it to weaken it. Fire Gem HP Fire for Scizor/Forry, Superpower for T-tar, or even Skill Swap for Espy/Xatu. Overall, Deo-d is super unhealthy for the balanced meta we are striving for, and I personally see no reason to keep it in OU.

 

[Soul Fly]

The only things that can OHKO Deo-D 100% of the time are:

Specs Chandelure - Shadow Ball | 101.31 - 120.39%
Banded Hustle Durant - X-Scissor | 113.15 - 134.21%
Banded Adaptability Crawdaunt - Crunch | 118.42 - 140.78%
Specs Flash Fire Heatran - Overheat | 122.69 - 144.4%
Banded Guts Herracross - Megahorn | 136.84 - 161.84%

Funny thing how almost all of them are UU and Below.


And are the heatran and Hera calcs with their respective abilities activated or just plain Band/Specs boost?
If so then Heatran wouldn't be able to activate his Flash Fire on most situations and same for Heracross who'll need a turn to activate his orb.

And which Deo-D set? the Bulky, the Mixed or the Purely Specially Defensive one?

kalashnikov's hanging on me so I can't check those..

 

[Cherub Agent]

You missed specs hydreigon dark pulse and cb scizor bug bite. These moves may not be standard, but if your team has problems with deoxys-d they're both excellent ways to limit it to only stealth rock, as unfortunately hydreigon needs modest to ko it (not that it should be running timid anyway) both moves obviously have merit on these pokemon outside of deoxys-d, as both are strong spammable stab moves. And hit other noteworthy targets harder than any other move they commonly run such as jellicent and reuniclus. These moves can easily be run over dragon pulse on specs hydreigon or pursuit on cb scizor (seriously dragon pulse is outdamaged by two draco meteors on hydreigon, and if youre staying in longer than two turns you could also just spam stab dark pulse. And seriously just how often do you use pursuit on cb scizor?)

I completely agree with super mario bro, deoxys d need sr, spikes and taunt to be consistently useful. Electric gem thunderbolt is the dumbest thing ive heard in this topic tbh, as it leaves you open to so many more things -.-

Also durant doesnt need cb, LO kos as well and is a more threatening set. Bug gem scolipede also kos and gets its own hazards up. Other things that can limot deoxys to only SR are stuff like cb haxorus who can just use outrage on it. Kyurem-b as well. Imo having sr on your side of the field is definelty worth a dead deoxys d. As long as your team isnt sr weak or you have a spinner, i've found deoxys d to not be that threatening, there are plenty of things that limit it. And not just uu and below. Also use your common sense. Heracross does not need the guts boost lol, cb is more than enough smh. And you say it gets two layers up against tyranitar; did you even LOOK at your own calc? You have a far, far higher chance of taking it out in one shot than two, as you seem to have forgotten sandstream. You're vastly overhypinf deoxys d.

 

[ginganinja]

You missed specs hydreigon dark pulse and cb scizor bug bite.

You missed the part where he said he was only listing moves that have a 100% chance to KO. Hydreigon only has a 50% chance to OHKO, which means Deoxys-D has a 50% chance at getting 2 layers up, and your Hydreigon is now locked into Dark Pulse, ready for the Terrakion to boost up on.

These moves can easily be run over dragon pulse on specs hydreigon or pursuit on cb scizor (seriously dragon pulse is outdamaged by two draco meteors on hydreigon, and if youre staying in longer than two turns you could also just spam stab dark pulse. And seriously just how often do you use pursuit on cb scizor?)

You would be running it over U-Turn, not Dragon Pulse, since Fire Blast and Focus Blast are too important.

Other things that can limot deoxys to only SR are stuff like cb haxorus who can just use outrage on it. Kyurem-b as well. Imo having sr on your side of the field is definelty worth a dead deoxys d.

Trouble is, both fall to Thunder Wave, since you get to cripple the sweeper AND get SR up AND have a 25% chance to get up a 2nd layer. Either way, you are locked in and are giving the HO team a free turn to set up and attack.

Also, I don't think anyone's overhyping Deoxys-D. When you can tank the strongest special and physical attacks in the entire fucking metagame, even some of the strongest super effective attacks in the game, AND set up SR and or Spikes, or cripple a sweeper with Thunder Wave, or prevent a set up with Taunt, you have a handful on your hands. Again, its possible to defeat sure, but Deoxys-D almost effortlessly gives you an easy, early game advantage which can make it tough to come back on. If their was only one "universal" Deoxys-D set, a set which had all 4 moves set in stone + item, I wouldn't really be too worried about it. But with its wide movepool, it can pretty much handle any counter that you want it too. This means that it makes it a fucking lottery when dealing with Deoxys-D eg: Can I set up a DD with Dragonite or will it Taunt? Can I taunt it with my Terrakion or does it have Mental Herb? Do I go for the Quiver Dance with Volcarona or will it Thunder Wave? etc etc. If you guess wrong, Deoxys-D just royally screwed with you, and prolly got up a layer or 2 in your face to add insult to injury. Its this factor (among others) which at the very least make it unhealthy for the current metagame.

 

[Reymedy]

Think outside of your position.

You're the Deoxys-D player, let's assume you're indeed leading naively against Volcarona.
You Thunder-Wave, as he Quiver Dance, and then paralysis is cured by Lum Berry.
Good game.

That's pretty much it, and this is why talking about possible low usage sets will lead us nowhere. And you can't really say that Lum Berry Volcarona is never used, because there is even a RestoChesto set that I see in the analysis that could pretty doom Deoxys-D with TWave harder. Or a Sub one, and it works with many other pokemons that can avoid Status, that's why this option is far from being the best on average because as Deoxys-D you have to let few rooms for set-up/Taunt/Hazards with Taunt or/and Magic Guard.
I think we should focus on the Taunt/SR/Spikes set and not consider every last option possible in the world at once because obviously yes, in this 4+ moveslots case, the pokemon is broken.

" If their was only one "universal" Deoxys-D set, a set which had all 4 moves set in stone + item, I wouldn't really be too worried about it."

I have this feeling for many other pokemons and some are not even in OU or in UU.

 

[Pocket]

I agree with Remedy. A combination of possible moves does not make a Pokemon broken; it's usually "that one set" that causes a suspect to topple over to Ubers. For Deo-D I suggest we stick with seemingly the most mentioned set in the thread to advance discussion:

Deoxys-D @ Mental Herb
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave

EDIT: Gato, I never said that this is "the most used deoxys." I am saying that this is the most dangerous / suspect-worthy set that people have been mentioned here. Common set =/= broken set, although they are usually correlated.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Pocket, I would disagree with that set being the most used deoxys. At least give it the option of Red Card over Mental Herb and Magic Coat over Thunder Wave. While offensive deoxys can KO rapid spinners, this leaves it vulnerable to every other method people use to deal with it. This deoxys deals with the maximum number of counters with the fewest moves/items. The only viable deoxys in my opinion is

Deoxys-D @ Red Card/Mental Herb
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Spikes
- Magic Coat/Thunder Wave

We all really have to agree that deoxys' first three moves are always the same. For the last one, Magic Coat and Thunder Wave are the most common, with Red Card used with Magic Coat and Mental Herb used with Thunder Wave. Deoxys really shouldn't be using all of this offensive crap. While we may disagree on the importance of Thunder Wave, we should at least give deoxys the option for one other move.

 

[Soul Fly]

Think outside of your position.

You're the Deoxys-D player, let's assume you're indeed leading naively against Volcarona.
You Thunder-Wave, as he Quiver Dance, and then paralysis is cured by Lum Berry.
Good game.

Not really.
I'm a Lum Berry volcarona User (though recently have been trying out Sash) and I used to think the same. I'll tell you what happens



I see Deo-D in the Preview and Volcarona pretty much has the Strongest STAB in my team to take him out.

So I switch in to his Oh so predictable Deo-D lead.

I QD he taunts



Then having no choice I Bug Buzz which does 88-90%-ish damage (Max damage is 99% @+1 so definitely not an OHKO under any circumstances) He gets out rocks. I've already done those calcs here before.



He dies to a second wave (and doesn't really give a damn) and the player promptly switches to anything that knows Stone Edge/EQ or a someone like Dragonite who can capitalize on my volc, whom If I switch out from the match is officially crippled until I somehow magically can manage to spin away rocks, without handing him over a free set up turn.

And On a Worse Note, If he Happens to a RED card, I've also effectively lost my Boosted Volcarona while he's potentially free to lay another set of Hazards with some luck. In whatever way it's a win-win situation for him



So, who's in a better position?

 

[ryan]

The problem with finding one definitive set that helps push it over the edge is one that has been brought up already--it's not just one set that pushes it over the edge and into ubers. There are the scarier sets that obviously are the most threatening, but the issue with Deo-D is its versatility of ways to handle the things that threaten it. Sure, you can say that Deoxys cannot run Skill Swap, Taunt, Magic Coat, Thunder Wave, HP Fire, HP Fighting, Thunderbolt, and Psycho Boost all on the same set carrying Mental Herb, Red Card, Leftovers, and Rocky Helmet, and you would, of course, be correct. But much like Genesect's ability to cover so much of the metagame that running Pokemon like Specially Defensive Tran and Gastrodon (which led to Gene running HP Ground and Giga Drain to handle these issues respectively) became nearly obligatory in order to keep from being swept by +1/+2 Genesect, the versatility of being able to cover all of its counters and keeping from being hard countered from setting up hazards is what makes Deo-D so powerful in the current OU metagame. I don't really have a huge opinion on whether Deo-D should stay or go, mainly because it only having those two filler moves to handle all of its counters, but I think it's important to remember that while it cannot run every coverage move on all of its sets, it is impossible to know which coverage moves it carries until it may be too late, and the Deo-D lead has finished its job setting up 2-4 layers of hazards.

 

[Vemane]

Everyone is so quick to yell "can't be 1hkod!!!!! Broken!!!!"

But in reality, the only consequence to not 1hkoing is sr goes up... Period. Last time i checked there were TONS of pokes who could guarentee rocks (and could even avoid a 1hko (hi sash)). These pokes frequently have better utility too (azelf, jirahi, etc.)

I have had deoxys set up more than rocks against me maybe once.

Turn 1: Kyub outrage
Turn 1: Keldeo hpump/surf
Turn 1: scizor u-turn to anything faster
Turn 1: etc

Sure, deo- d can always do his job, but who the hell cares when his job is setting up (a) hazard(s)?

Tonsof pokes can set up stealth rock from turn 1. But this in no way ois game changing because so many things can set up rocks!

 

[Sacaen]

Not really.
I'm a Lum Berry volcarona User (though recently have been trying out Sash) and I used to think the same. I'll tell you what happens



I see Deo-D in the Preview and Volcarona pretty much has the Strongest STAB in my team to take him out.

So I switch in to his Oh so predictable Deo-D lead.

I QD he taunts



Then having no choice I Bug Buzz which does 88-90%-ish damage (Max damage is 99% @+1 so definitely not an OHKO under any circumstances) He gets out rocks. I've already done those calcs here before.



He dies to a second wave (and doesn't really give a damn) and the player promptly switches to anything that knows Stone Edge/EQ or a someone like Dragonite who can capitalize on my volc, whom If I switch out from the match is officially crippled until I somehow magically can manage to spin away rocks, without handing him over a free set up turn.

And On a Worse Note, If he Happens to a RED card, I've also effectively lost my Boosted Volcarona while he's potentially free to lay another set of Hazards with some luck. In whatever way it's a win-win situation for him



So, who's in a better position?

Ya know you could always run some SpA EVs on Volc.

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-D: 302-356 (99.34 - 117.1%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO

Sure, you still lose to red card, but now at least you're most likely going to kill it and you beat any deo not running red card.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

The main problem is the assumption of how game changing a layer of rocks can be. And the answer is none. Its a standard battle condition to have rocks setup and you may or may not spin it later depending on how much you care. Deoxys-D is one of the best hazard users available, but in the end of the day it doesnt do anything that other hazards cant. This is not really what a broken mon is supposed to be.

 

[Woodchuck]

Soul Fly seems to always assume bulky volc, but I would argue that offensive volc is its best set right now, both for its ability to beat Deoxys-D off the bat as well as its need for greater power off the bat.

I'm honestly not sure about whether Deoxys-D is actually broken, but for what it's worth, I like the suspect metagame more than the current one right now. Having Deoxys-D everywhere seems to make a spinner necessary on nearly every team (bar hyper offense) so it's nice to have the flexibility of not needing to run a move with such limited distribution on anything short of hyper offense.
Some people may disagree with me here, but I feel like unless you've designed your team so that there is literally nothing that hazard users can set up on, you pretty much need a Rapid Spinner or you are handicapping yourself. Thoughts?

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Soul Fly seems to always assume bulky volc, but I would argue that offensive volc is its best set right now, both for its ability to beat Deoxys-D off the bat as well as its need for greater power off the bat.

I'm honestly not sure about whether Deoxys-D is actually broken, but for what it's worth, I like the suspect metagame more than the current one right now. Having Deoxys-D everywhere seems to make a spinner necessary on nearly every team (bar hyper offense) so it's nice to have the flexibility of not needing to run a move with such limited distribution on anything short of hyper offense.
Some people may disagree with me here, but I feel like unless you've designed your team so that there is literally nothing that hazard users can set up on, you pretty much need a Rapid Spinner or you are handicapping yourself. Thoughts?

My thoughs. There are teams that are hazard weak and teams that dont care about hazards. If your team is hazard weak you need spinners, that was YOUR choice to use a team like that (sun teams). If your team dont care about hazards (sand teams), you might as well dont use a spinner as it would be eating a valuable moveslot. It all depends on your team.

 

[Neliel]

Have you ever used a Deo-d team without Dragonite/Salamence/Terrakion other volca check? Just to know, because its seems that you are always scared about a Volcarona setupping in front of you, but i've never had this issue.

 

[Soul Fly]

The main problem is the assumption of how game changing a layer of rocks can be. And the answer is none. Its a standard battle condition to have rocks setup and you may or may not spin it later depending on how much you care. Deoxys-D is one of the best hazard users available, but in the end of the day it doesnt do anything that other hazards cant. This is not really what a broken mon is supposed to be.

There. That one right there.
No we should NOT be treating that as a 'standard' battle condition, like Drizzle or something. It takes a move to use and anything which takes a move to set up by essence should be open to some kind of check. I should have the power to stop my opponent from doing that rather than helplessly just shrug and say 'so what it's just one layer'. A lot of OU teams are viable without Spinners, Making Spinning a mandatory job is every OU match is NOT OK.

Soul Fly seems to always assume bulky volc, but I would argue that offensive volc is its best set right now, both for its ability to beat Deoxys-D off the bat as well as its need for greater power off the bat.

No I don't.

Even though Bulky volc is much more used, all my calcs were done with 252SpAtk Volcarona @ +1 in mind.
I DID say I have done the calcs haven't I? Here. I'm quoting myself from Page 2.

252SpAtk +1 Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Deoxys (+SpDef): 83% - 99% (254 - 302 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

There. That one right there.
No we should NOT be treating that as a 'standard' battle condition, like Drizzle or something. It takes a move to use and anything which takes a move to set up by essence should be open to some kind of check. I should have the power to stop my opponent from doing that rather than helplessly just shrug and say 'so what it's just one layer'. A lot of OU teams are viable without Spinners, Making Spinning a mandatory job is every OU match is NOT OK.



No I don't.

Even though Bulky volc is much more used, all my calcs were done with 252SpAtk Volcarona @ +1 in mind.
I DID say I have done the calcs haven't I? Here. I'm quoting myself from Page 2.

THAT. What set have we been discussin, the best set and the one is every one is complaining? The Speedy Spiker set. Outspeeding shit and taunting them. But them you go and make a calc with sp def deoxys. Im not following this logic and i wish you explained these calcs to me. Speedy Spiker is the best set cause it takes advantage of Deoxys speed, the thing that sets it apart from the millions of hazards users around.

 

[Soul Fly]

THAT. What set have we been discussin, the best set and the one is every one is complaining? The Speedy Spiker set. Outspeeding shit and taunting them. But them you go and make a calc with sp def deoxys. Im not following this logic and i wish you explained these calcs to me. Speedy Spiker is the best set cause it takes advantage of Deoxys speed, the thing that sets it apart from the millions of hazards users around.

Well I haven't agreed with anything like that. Anything worth using it to taunt will taunt it anyways. Base 90 by itself on a defensive mon is quite broken considering it can easily manhandle the opposing hazarder.

And I'm just analysing it according to the current meta.

These are the January Stats.

Calm:252/0/4/0/252/0 16.970%

And that sits just behind the Speedy Spiker Set. (at 20%) These Sets usually carry Red Card or Mental Herb so Opposing Taunters don't really bother them at all.

See that's exactly what is happening here. It ain't no one trick pony. Apart from the Definite Hazards you Have to guess EVERYTHING about his set, and the wrong guess lands you with multiple hazards on top of the 'standard' stealth rocks. So basically it has an advantage at those odds at 1 to 6 at the 6 common sets it's running (along with the few nastily surprising ones)

 

[GatoDelFuego]

@pocket You did say it was the most mentioned set, so I just made the connection, possibly incorrectly. I agree with you 100% that its really the only deoxys worth talking about, as long as you give it the option of red card and magic coat. That's the only set I'm ever going to bother talking about, with the possibility of maybe skill swap. Offensive deoxys is inferior to this set and should be treated as such, and taunt + magic coat/thunder wave + red card/mental herb give it the best chance of beating things.

On a more current topic, stealth rock is not so bad on its own, but the fact that the deoxys user wants it to die is the bigger problem. Whatever you've killed deoxys with, the HO user has something to beat it with; tyranitar terrakion, volcarona dragonite or something else. Deoxys puts you between a rock and a hard place: either kill it immediately, giving momentum to the HO team and beginning their cycle of sweepers, or try to play around it/not kill it/mispredict and more hazards go up, making it even harder when the sweepers come out.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Well I haven't agreed with anything like that. Anything worth using it to taunt will taunt it anyways. Base 90 by itself on a defensive mon is quite broken considering it can easily manhandle the opposing hazarder.

And I'm just analysing it according to the current meta.

These are the January Stats.

Calm:252/0/4/0/252/0 16.970%

And that sits just behind the Speedy Spiker Set. (at 20%) These Sets usually carry Red Card or Mental Herb so Opposing Taunters don't really bother them at all.

Sp def set is not the set used on HO teams which is the thing people are complaining to be broken. Setup, dies, send sweepers. Thats not how the sp def set works. Hence if you want to call something broken this is not the set to do so.

 

[peng]

I agree with Remedy. A combination of possible moves does not make a Pokemon broken; it's usually "that one set" that causes a suspect to topple over to Ubers. For Deo-D I suggest we stick with seemingly the most mentioned set in the thread to advance discussion:

I completely disagree with this. If Deoxys-D only had one viable set I wouldn't be pro-ban, especially if that one set was the Mental Herb set that you listed. I honestly don't see why you'd use Mental Herb at all in this meta - the only Taunt users are like lead Terrakion, Sableye and Gliscor, with only Terrakion of those 3 being common and you're probably better off with Magic Coat there anyway.

I think what makes Deoxys-D broken is its ability to reliably get up hazards whilst also having the potential to beat practically whatever you lead off against it. Using a set like the Mental Herb one, which loses to every spinner every time, isn't making good use of Deo-Ds assets at all, and loses to any team with a spinner or magic bounce Pokemon. Just like Deoxys-S, Deo-D has a ton of offensive options in its movepool to ensure that there are very very few "safe" things to lead off against it. People can claim that Life Orb Thunderbolt + Psycho Boost Deoxys-D isn't good, but its consistently able to beat two of the most common answers to Deo in OU. If that doesn't make it good then I'm interested to hear what peoples definition of a "good" set are, especially since its still very consistent at getting up multiple hazards against teams that lack these 2 spinners. Its this massive range of offensive options that pushes Deoxys-D over the edge for me. With access to Thunderbolt, Psycho Boost, Superpower / Low Kick, Hidden Power [Fire] and many others, Deoxys-D can be tailored to lure in and dispatch almost any would-be counter, and people can trash-talk these offensive sets as much as they want, but it doesn't change the fact that they are effective when they need to be, and consistent even when the moveset isn't ideal for the match-up.

 

[Soul Fly]

Sp def set is not the set used on HO teams which is the thing people are complaining to be broken. Setup, dies, send sweepers. Thats not how the sp def set works. Hence if you want to call something broken this is not the set to do so.

Well Now you're 'deciding' for the players what kind of set would be best for HO, because Stating the ONLY Speedy is viable is kind of Baseless. Sorry. Because SpDef is Actually very, VERY viable on HO. You want to know why?


Jaunuary 2013 Stats for Deoxys-D

+----------------------------------------+ 
 | Checks and Counters                    | 
 | Volcarona 87.823 (91.82±1.00)          |
 |	 (59.7% KOed / 32.1% switched out)| 
 | Gengar 84.881 (88.89±1.00)             |
 |	 (51.3% KOed / 37.6% switched out)|

So you see. It's Top 2 checks according to the latest Jan Stats are BOTH Specially offensive pokemon.... Stuff like CB Tyranitar is lower than trash like Sharpedo (goes to show how rare it is) and Scizor isn't even on the Top Ten of the Checks and Counters list, despite people throwing it's CB Bug Bite around as one of the Sure fire ways to stop Deoxys-D.

4/5 HO Deo-D's I meet in Standard OU are the SpD set, even though I wished it would be otherwise. The Standard Mix Bulk Speed variant seems more popular with mixed teams with 2-3 Set Up Sweepers along with Gengar and people.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

I completely disagree with this. If Deoxys-D only had one viable set I wouldn't be pro-ban, especially if that one set was the Mental Herb set that you listed. I honestly don't see why you'd use Mental Herb at all in this meta - the only Taunt users are like lead Terrakion, Sableye and Gliscor, with only Terrakion of those 3 being common and you're probably better off with Magic Coat there anyway.

I think what makes Deoxys-D broken is its ability to reliably get up hazards whilst also having the potential to beat practically whatever you lead off against it. Using a set like the Mental Herb one, which loses to every spinner every time, isn't making good use of Deo-Ds assets at all, and loses to any team with a spinner or magic bounce Pokemon. Just like Deoxys-S, Deo-D has a ton of offensive options in its movepool to ensure that there are very very few "safe" things to lead off against it. People can claim that Life Orb Thunderbolt + Psycho Boost Deoxys-D isn't good, but its consistently able to beat two of the most common answers to Deo in OU. If that doesn't make it good then I'm interested to hear what peoples definition of a "good" set are, especially since its still very consistent at getting up multiple hazards against teams that lack these 2 spinners. Its this massive range of offensive options that pushes Deoxys-D over the edge for me. With access to Thunderbolt, Psycho Boost, Superpower / Low Kick, Hidden Power [Fire] and many others, Deoxys-D can be tailored to lure in and dispatch almost any would-be counter, and people can trash-talk these offensive sets as much as they want, but it doesn't change the fact that they are effective when they need to be, and consistent even when the moveset isn't ideal for the match-up.

KeyWord. Theyre good sets. Much like a bunch of pokes can run random hidden powers/coverage to deal with its counters. Deoxys-D is nothing special.

 

[alexwolf]

This is a whole heap of wrong, so let me educate you.

Deoxys-D does nothing to stall teams because Starmie can spin on it all day. Even Tentacruel can barring that Psycho Boost set. You don't need Magic Coat or Taunt to beat Deoxys-D on a stall team, almost any common spinner nowadays beats it. When you have Gengar spinblocking for a lot of these HO teams, it becomes even simpler to spin away hazards. And don't give me "Sash Gengar" bullshit, sand teams have no problem with this and almost all Rain stall teams can get SR up as they proceed to kill Deoxys.

No one uses Skill Swap because you remove a moveslot that could be used for something else. If Deoxys-D doesn't have an attacking move like Seismic Toss, any HO team that decides to boost turn 1 wins (I forget what ST9 match I watched this in, but literally it was Deo-D versus Dragonite, and Dragonite DD'd twice and swept the entire Deo-D offensive team, and no two scrubs were not playing).

To your last point, I won a #pokemon challenge in BW using a rain stall team with Deoxys-D as the defensive spiker. Not only did I get to #1 on PO but I used the team in several key tournament games. While Deoxys-D might not be used on stall teams in BW2 yet, it is not outclassed by other spikers - having access to Taunt and Recover is amazing, and you can stall out so many things with the set.

The metagame is so offensive anyway that banning Deoxys-D won't hamper offensive teams. SR Terrakion leads will become more common, or suicide spikers or whatever. Deoxys-D doesn't define offense - the sweepers in the metagame define offense. I don't care whether it gets banned or not, but a lot of the "facts" you posted weren't correct.

First of all cut the attitude. If you really wanted to educate me and make me learn you would not start with such a provoking way. Anyway let's go to your points.

I don't get at all your first paragraph. Starmie and Tentacruel can spin against Deo-D? Ok we all know this. That's why Gengar is put in such teams. So go ahead bring Starmie in while i set-up SR. Then spin it away as i paralyze your Starmie, and then i spam SR until you get fully paralyzed. Then i got to my Focus Sash Gengar in the next turn and you don't spin, and possibly don't even break Gengar's Sash. After the offensive teams starts gaining momentum it is really hard for the spinner to come and spin again, which will almost always result in its death, and possibly the death of teammates too, from the free turn you provide as you use Rapid Spin. Same with Tentacruel, except that Gengar can actually beat Tentacruel without needing it paralyzed, as long as it has D-Bond.

You say that nobody uses Skill Swap. And i will say to you that this has no relevance. Skill Swamp is one of the best options Deo-D has for its last slot and the matter ends here. If you don't like it it is ok, but you can't deny the fact that it is a viable option, as evidenced by my team, and the testimony of many other OU players. And how will anything boost in Deo-D's face when it has Taunt? Dnite gets Taunted easily. Only faster threats can set-up but they have to fear T-Wave, which limits the best options to set-up against Deo-D to Rock Polish Landorus, Agility Thundurus-T, SubSD Garchomp, and that's it i think.

I also think you missed my point. I never said that Deo-D is not viable on stall. I said that the benefits to stall of Deo-D leaving far outweight the cons (not being able to use it on your stall team). This is something everyone can agree with i think.

Finally, i don't know if Deo-D leaving will hamper offensive teams or not, what i do know is that Deo-D is one of the biggest threats for the stall teams i have used and seen being used, so his departure will only be a positive things for stall.

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I also agree with Pocket that Deo-D's best all around set is the one he posted. It is the one that leaves the less set-up chances, and requires the less team support. Of 'course Red Card, Rocky Helmet, S-Toss, Skill Swap, and Magic Coat are all excellent as well, but i think that the overall best set is this one.

I completely disagree with this. If Deoxys-D only had one viable set I wouldn't be pro-ban, especially if that one set was the Mental Herb set that you listed. I honestly don't see why you'd use Mental Herb at all in this meta - the only Taunt users are like lead Terrakion, Sableye and Gliscor, with only Terrakion of those 3 being common and you're probably better off with Magic Coat there anyway.

I think what makes Deoxys-D broken is its ability to reliably get up hazards whilst also having the potential to beat practically whatever you lead off against it. Using a set like the Mental Herb one, which loses to every spinner every time, isn't making good use of Deo-Ds assets at all, and loses to any team with a spinner or magic bounce Pokemon. Just like Deoxys-S, Deo-D has a ton of offensive options in its movepool to ensure that there are very very few "safe" things to lead off against it. People can claim that Life Orb Thunderbolt + Psycho Boost Deoxys-D isn't good, but its consistently able to beat two of the most common answers to Deo in OU. If that doesn't make it good then I'm interested to hear what peoples definition of a "good" set are, especially since its still very consistent at getting up multiple hazards against teams that lack these 2 spinners. Its this massive range of offensive options that pushes Deoxys-D over the edge for me. With access to Thunderbolt, Psycho Boost, Superpower / Low Kick, Hidden Power [Fire] and many others, Deoxys-D can be tailored to lure in and dispatch almost any would-be counter, and people can trash-talk these offensive sets as much as they want, but it doesn't change the fact that they are effective when they need to be, and consistent even when the moveset isn't ideal for the match-up.

Mental Herb is useful for Lead Terrakion, a very common sight, opposing Deo-D match-ups, where you don't have to bang on a 50-50 chance, against Sabelye which is a popular mon among good plaeyrs and a very real threat to HO teams and finally against any other random Taunt user. Magic Coat is good, but very unreiable. You want to use Magic Coat against the opposing Terrakion? What if he goes for SD instead? Yeah you get the point.

Also nobody claimed that the attacking Deo-D sets are not good, it is only have been stated that they are not the best Deo-D sets, because they need more team support, and leave more set-up chances to the opponent. The Taunt + Dual Hazards + Filler move is arguably the best set, and the only that can make Deo-D broken. Everything else is the icing in the cake to me.