Landorus-I Discussion: Evaluating a Potential Suspect

[Soul Fly]

About Scizor. It's right, you are wrong:
Detailed Result:
252 SpAtk Life Orb Landorus Earth Power vs 248 HP/0 SpDef Scizor: 79,88% - 93,88%

Detailed Result:
252 Atk Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Landorus: 55,49% - 65,2%

Oh so how am I wrong?

About Azumarril, I said in SandStorm conditions, you are assuming in rainy conditions the aqua jet, and I assumed the earthquake in sand conditions, it's right too:
Detailed Result:
252 Atk Life Orb Landorus Earthquake vs 252 HP/0 Def Azumarill: 80,2% - 94,31%

Scizor and Azumarril could be OHKO after rocks. Mamoswine can revenge Lando, I didn't say the contrary. Review my message, your calculator and don't fool about my intentions.

Oh so I have to assume that Landorus will always have 100% health left over ALL the time after rock polish and you get the convenience to assume the opposing Pokemon won't be at full health?
And somehow Rain isn't at common as rocks?
So you get to assume all favorable conditions?

Please learn to read?

 

[ginganinja]

Couple of things

Firstly, ihatesmogan, your list needs work since you state a few things which are untrue. Chief among them is your use of "counter" mentioning several pokemon you think counter, but actually don't (Scizor being just one of them when Timid has a 43% shot at OHKOing (after SR), while Modest has like 93% or something (after SR), also, you don't OHKO unless your using Natural Gift Yache Berry or something fuck idk). Remember the differences between a check and a counter please (id edit and fix the entire post but there are a number of issues and iv already had to edit it once today, and I really shouldn't need to be editting a post _THAT_ much or Pocket might kill me!!!).

I would also like to repeat that lando is not dominating the metagame. It is not even on the top ten in usage stats. If lando was truely broken, it would be overcentralizing the metagame and would be used on the majority of teams.

Ok I know this was touched on by someone else earlier, but I cannot stress this enough, the above quote is a terrible argument to use as justification to not suspect something. Its a pet peeve of mine esp especially as its not like Landorus-I is sitting at 50th in usage or whatever. Usage has nothing to do with when we suspect / ban something so please please please don't bring it up.

 

[Ojama]

As I said it in my previous post: do not bring terrible arguments to prove that Landorus-I isn't broken. I'm obviously talking about ihatesmogan's list that is 80% wrong. Firstly, you're assuming that Landorus-I can't switch out against those checks/counters and that it's 1 vs 1. It is true that Politoed can either 2HKO or OHKO Landorus-I but correct me if I'm wrong but your opponent has the right to switch out hasn't he? 90% of the Pokemons in your list are Defensive Pokemons which means they come in against Landorus-I and don't really make powerfull damage. It is much easier to keep the momentum with a Sweeper than with a Staller. The biggest issue with Landorus-I is that it's almost impossible, I would even say impossible, to stall it out due to its great double typing and fantastic ability. On paper your Politoed, Vaporeon, Jellicent, Celebi, Rotom-W, Hippowdon etc can all take a hit and 2HKO it (only Ice Beam OHKO's it) but that's another story during the game. Landorus-I comes in against a Pokemon that can do nothing in return, let's say SDef Heatran. You obviously have to switch, let's say to Hippowdon. Earth Power 2HKOs it and Landorus-I is faster and so doesn't take any damage. Same thing with Landorus-I vs SDef Jirachi. You have to switch out. What about sending Politoed or Vaporeon. Same story, you're 2HKO'd and don't do any damage to it. Rotom-W is at least 2HKO'd by Focus Blast and Celebi is 2HKO'd by U-Turn. Nothing that is 2HKO'd by Landorus-I can be considered as a counter and this works for every Pokemon. Something that is 2HKO'd but can either OHKO or 2HKO in return is called a check. Latios is a check to Landorus-I. Chansey is a counter to Landorus-I.

Here is a complete list of all the pokemon that can take a hit and hit back to KO (not including SR)? It's a lot longer than four pokemon. They are:
Politoed => read above
Vaporeon => read above
Jellicent => 2HKO'd, slower and can't OHKO it.
Latios => 2HKO'd and easily trapped by Tyranitar. Obviously not a counter
Latias => Same thing
Celebi => Can be considered as a counter if Landorus-I doesn't carry U-Turn and if Celebi runs Baton Pass (otherwise it's easily trapped by Tyranitar)
Rotom-W => 2HKO'd by Focus Blast if it's Specially Defensive Rotom-W, OHKO'd if its Offensive Rotom-W. Slower unless it's Scarfed.
Chansey/Blissey (3HKOed, can stall with toxic) => here are Landorus-I real counters. Watch out though with Blissey because it can be 2HKO'd by Focus Blast after Stealth Rock. Also, watch out CMLandorus-I...
Keldeo => OHKO'd after Stealth Rock, can only revenge kill it. It's a check, not a counter.
Thunderus-T => OHKO'd by HP Ice after Stealth Rock, Speed tie if they're both Timid/Modest with the same Evs Spread which is often the case since they're both used as RPolisher. Not a counter, a check.
Tornadus => Same as above although Tornadus outruns it.
Dragonite(assuming multiscale is up) => OHKO'd after Stealth Rock, 2HKO'd with Multiscale up.
Zapdos => Almost 2HKO'd without Stealth Rock, easily 2HKO'd after Stealth Rock + slower.
Scizor (doesn't OHKO but can counter because BP has priority) => OHKO'd and does 60% max to Landorus-I. Can be considered as a check, I'm not even sure.
Gyrados => one of Landorus-I real few counters
Gengar => 2HKO'd if Stealth Rock is up, faster but can't OHKO it back
Conkeldurr => takes like 80% on Earth Power...
Slowbro (not common but still...) => you mean Slowking maybe?
Azumarill (again, not common) => check
Hippowdon (assuming it has ice fang) => not sure if it can be considered as a check
Swampert => same as above
Gastrodon => 2HKO'd and can only OHKO it if it runs Ice Beam

I guess you get the point, I'm not doing the same thing with the rest of your list but it's exactly the same thing. Just want to repeat myself once again, because when I see

Finally, these pokemon can check it situationally:
Ditto (transforms and KOs with HP ice) => you must have the right IVs because it doesn't copy the same Hidden Power
Alakazam w focus sash intact
Heatran w air baloon intact => FOCUS BLAST??
Amoogus (Puts to sleep with spore)
Infernape (Standard leap ape w focus sash intact) => ...

This makes me laugh to see you all bring absurd arguments to prove that Landorus-I is not broken. What will be the next check/counter to Landorus-I? Focus Sash Metagross? If you didn't realize it, by bringing all those terrible and absurd arguments you just prove that Landorus-I is broken and has only a few checks/counters. You're all using your imagination to find out a Pokemon with a non-existent set to prove that it doesn't deserve to be suspected, at least could you come with a real check/counter like Slowking? It's RU but is a real answer to Landorus-I thanks to Regenerator and its amazing Bulk. Or even Mandibuzz as it has already been said.

 

[Nutrix]

While I agree that Lando merits a suspect test, I think there's a major problem with our arguments:

Latios => 2HKO'd and easily trapped by Tyranitar. Obviously not a counter
Latias => Same thing
Celebi => Can be considered as a counter if Landorus-I doesn't carry U-Turn and if Celebi runs Baton Pass (otherwise it's easily trapped by Tyranitar)

While it's true that many counters to Landorus are very vulnerable to Tyranitar, and that Tyranitar is a very good and common teammate for that reason, automatically assuming that a) Tyranitar is an fact a teammate and b) the opponent has no way to take advantage of or play around a Pursuit-locked Tyranitar.

We shouldn't discount Tyranitar as an argument, but nor should we say NO TTAR TRAPS IT CAN'T COUNTER EVER. (I do agree that Latios is a horrible counter to Landorus)

We should look at Landorus and its potential in its own right: very powerful, fairly fast, quite difficult to wear down by most means, and with a pretty small pool of viable counters, all of whom it can lure KO to help another teammate, and all of whom are quite easy to take advantage of with many Pokemon

For example, if we take Specially Defensive Celebi, there's quite of list of Pokemon that can easily switch in on it and set up or just attack (off the top of my head, most dragons, hazard setters, and yes, Pursuit-trappers).

If Landorus-I gets a suspect test, we might move closer to a ban, but we'll at least get to fairly evaluate the impact it has on the metagame.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Something I want to point out about team support: you can really only look at landorus when it comes to sweeping things, but when you look at its counters you have to consider how viable they are. Are latias and Celebi both viable counters with tyranitar paired on every team with landorus? Sure, they're great counters, but depending on the metagame they just may not be good enough to stop landorus completely. I definitely think landorus is something that needs to be looked at more closely, which is honestly the only purpose of this. It has something like 170 special attack with sheer force iirc? That's on the level of Kyurem-B without such a sucky typing and low speed.

Another thing I don't like about the anti-suspect argument is talking about how to deal with landorus; you'll just hit it as it rock polishes, let something die, and then switch into your defensive vaporeon or gastrodon or jellicent or conkeldurr or forretress or hell, all of them after another. The problem with that thinking is that if you're running a defensive team, landorus won't rock polish. Landorus makes such an awesome sweeper because it has all its power right from the start. It only needs to set up a rock polish if you're running a fully offensive team that's going to outspeed it. Even with a couple of pivots that are faster than it, like latias, it's not going to OHKO with its standard sets. If you've got a defensive team with defensive switch-ins to landorus, it's just going to smash you with powerful moves right off the bat.

Also, if you've got an offensive team, you require mamoswine to kill this thing. Scizor is just not good enough, only dealing ~65% with bullet punch. That means that if it gets off a rock polish at full health, it's already over. A lot of offensive teams are hard to get soloed by + speed sweepers, like Thundurus-T, as they just don't have enough power to 6-0 everything on a standard offensive team, while landorus carries a huge deal of power right off the bat.

Balanced teams will have the easiest time dealing with landorus, as they may have both faster checks and defensive ones that can take one hit. However, this still puts the burden on you to predict what it's going to do IMO. If the landorus player predicts wrong and rock polishes or uses a resisted attack as you switch into a defensive poke, he can just switch out with no consequences due to sheer force. However, with the sheer offensive pressure landorus has, it makes you keep all of your checks 100% ready to deal with landorus all the time just in case it gets to that one game winning turn where landorus shows up and makes the correct move and it's all over. I know it's old but Kd24's replay is a great example of this.

 

[shrang]

This is not entirely correct, at least from my understanding:

Something that is 2HKO'd but can either OHKO or 2HKO in return is called a check. Latios is a check to Landorus-I. Chansey is a counter to Landorus-I.

If a Pokemon can switch into the target and defeat it, it is a counter. Landorus has nothing that can OHKO Latios as it switches in, and since Latios can outspeed and OHKO in return that turn, it is a counter. Either you Rock Polish as Latios comes in and lose to it because you cannot OHKO with HP Ice, or you hit it with HP Ice but cannot 2HKO it without getting OHKOed in return. Latios is a counter to Landorus in that strictest sense of the word. Probably not the best long term counter, but definitely a counter. A check is a Pokemon that cannot switch in safely (either gets OHKOed by an attack, or gets 2HKOed because it cannot OHKO the target before getting 2HKOed, which Latios CAN do) but can defeat the Pokemon if it IS in safely.

 

[Lavos]

shrang, i think you've misunderstood the definition of a counter vs that of a check. my understanding was that a counter was the same thing as a check, except that a counter can stick around and wall landorus for the duration of the game, whereas a check (such as the latios example you bring up) would be something that, yes, can take an hp ice once and threaten landorus out, but can't take repeated hits from landorus and continue to heal it off. a different sort of check would also be something that can't switch in and take a hit, but can still threaten landorus out no matter the situation, e.g. weavile. i hope that's become a little more clear to everyone in this thread. hopefully we can all come to an agreement on these definitions, since they seem to be the centerpiece of both sides' arguments.

 

[shrang]

Traditionally, a counter is a Pokemon is exactly what I have described. Maybe this may have been changing lately, but a counter is a Pokemon that can switch into the target and defeat it 100% of the time (or close enough that the difference is insignificant), assuming 1v1, and both are at either full health with standard battle conditions (SR) and favourable weather conditions for the aggressor. I guess you could differentiate counters, that a hard counter is one that can come in repeatedly and cockblock the target every single time. Weavile is a check. Latios is a counter. Chansey is a hard counter.

 

[ihatesmogan]

As I said it in my previous post: do not bring terrible arguments to prove that Landorus-I isn't broken. I'm obviously talking about ihatesmogan's list that is 80% wrong. Firstly, you're assuming that Landorus-I can't switch out against those checks/counters and that it's 1 vs 1. It is true that Politoed can either 2HKO or OHKO Landorus-I but correct me if I'm wrong but your opponent has the right to switch out hasn't he? 90% of the Pokemons in your list are Defensive Pokemons which means they come in against Landorus-I and don't really make powerfull damage. It is much easier to keep the momentum with a Sweeper than with a Staller. The biggest issue with Landorus-I is that it's almost impossible, I would even say impossible, to stall it out due to its great double typing and fantastic ability. On paper your Politoed, Vaporeon, Jellicent, Celebi, Rotom-W, Hippowdon etc can all take a hit and 2HKO it (only Ice Beam OHKO's it) but that's another story during the game. Landorus-I comes in against a Pokemon that can do nothing in return, let's say SDef Heatran. You obviously have to switch, let's say to Hippowdon. Earth Power 2HKOs it and Landorus-I is faster and so doesn't take any damage. Same thing with Landorus-I vs SDef Jirachi. You have to switch out. What about sending Politoed or Vaporeon. Same story, you're 2HKO'd and don't do any damage to it. Rotom-W is at least 2HKO'd by Focus Blast and Celebi is 2HKO'd by U-Turn. Nothing that is 2HKO'd by Landorus-I can be considered as a counter and this works for every Pokemon. Something that is 2HKO'd but can either OHKO or 2HKO in return is called a check. Latios is a check to Landorus-I. Chansey is a counter to Landorus-I.

As i said, the pokemon can not switch in directly. What you can do however, is sack heatran. If the landorus attempts to set up, flamethrower will do a lot of damage. If landorus kills it, you can switch in something like vaporeon. Yes your oppoment can switch out. The point is that then, landorus is forced out and cannot sweep. I Would also like to point out that not all of the pokemon are stallers. There are offensive politoeds, rotom-w, celebi, etc. the oppoment is likely to be carrying at least one if the pokemon mentioned in the list. Rotom-w, politoed, scizor are all very common. Also, please don't try to say that landorus can get by pokemon like celebi with u-turn as the move is rarely, if ever seen on landorus, unless it is a physical set. Finally, I would like to point out that focus blast only has a 49% chance of hitting twice. This means that you are essentially relying on a move like zap cannon to knock out a rotom-w.

 

[Vemane]

http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou12959326

I feel like this replay showcases a lot of the ideas presented in this thread.

1. Overloading: My opponent had THREE lando "counters." Yet, even without ttar's pursuit support, they were worn down somewhat easily, at least by the end of the battle. This match really did change my mind about how easily lando's counters could be dismantled. But even so, that may all go to waste because....

2. Coverage Sucks: Lando's options for coverage moves are focus blast and hp ice. While this is great in terms of typing, focus blast has 70% accuracy... and even when lando's counters were all very sufficiently weakened, this halted the sweep. Not only that, but hp ice is 70bp unstabbed... and it causes lo recoil. So, from what I've gathered, although it is somewhat easy to weaken his counters, lando's coverage can still make it difficult to sweep properly. Last but not least...

3. Team support isn't /that/ important: While the whole lando+keldeo+ttar core is nice, it is somewhat unnecesary and doesn't work as planned in practice. On paper, it seems like ttar could come in and pursuit both of their counters, allowing either to sweep. But in reality, many of his/their common checks+counters (rotom, gyarados, etc.) aren't even pursuit weak and can harm ttar, and even the ones that are (latis) can easily play around the pursuit, not to mention that pursuit is huge setup bait for something like lucario (just an example, as he can then ko lando or w/e).

Despite this, though, in practice lando truly doesn't actually need the support that in paper seems so vital. Although teammates play a huge rule, it isn't as direct as everyone is making it out to be. Based off of that it is clear that momentum is vital when using lando. Finding safe switch ins to either set up or just fire off super strong attacks is absolutely key.

tl;dr: I (now) think lando does derserve a test, but I don't think he is broken due to the huge flaws (coverage) that inhibit his sweep.

 

[MMII]

hopefully we can all come to an agreement on these definitions, since they seem to be the centerpiece of both sides' arguments.

What's that you say?

Advertising dieing threads aside, I don't think Smogan's list is as useless as many say. The way I see things Landorus fares differently against different team types.

Against Stall: Lando just eats it up for breakfast. Those short list of counters combined with tricks like U-Turn and Tyranitar as well as that natural resistance to passive damage makes Stall very sad indeed. Sadly, Landorus is not the only one in the metagame that can do this at the moment. The list of major threats to stall is so long that the playstyle is arguably unviable (or pretty close to it) in the current metagame. I'm all for throwing a bone to Stall but there are many more culprits than Landorus for it's decline.

Against Balanced: Things aren't as nice as for Lando here as it is for Stall. All the same, there are a fair amount of Pokemon found here that are naturally slower than Landorus which means he can use these as opportunities to take a kill. It'll have a harder time pulling off a RP sweep (especially early game) due to the multiple defensive, and possibly offensive, checks but it'll definitely show it's worth.

Against Offense: Honestly, I think this is where Landorus has the hardest time. Most of the team will outspeed Landorus if it doesn't have a RP in which means it'll have less chances to come in and flew it's muscles, especially if the player plays smart and makes sure to minimize the activity of their sluggish memebers. (Please don't say this is proof of brokeness, it's just smart play like it is with not DM spamming a Latios on a TTar team) This playstyle also cares the least about its members so for the few chances Lando does come in to abuse its power the offense player has little problem sacking the slower mon while attacking (in case Lando decides to RP). These teams only really need to pack a soft check or two in the case Lando does hit +2 since the genie will rarely ever have the opportunity to do so.

This is where Smogan's list shows its worth. Many things can come in after a kill and stop a weakened Lando from pulling off its RP sweep. In a balanced metagame I'd be quicker to call Lando broken but since BW2 has a strong lean towards offense I'm not sure the sand Genie really separates itself from other threats. (For example, a SubSalac Terrakion can easily sweep an offensive or balanced team if Ttar has taken out that Scarf Latios)

Just for funzies:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 203-239 (59.53 - 70.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Machamp Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 181-214 (53.07 - 62.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dat power


(Just so you know, I did vote for it to at least be suspect tested)

 

[Lavos]

vemane's log demonstrates really well how landorus isn't a threat if you know how to play. his opponent makes a ton of blunders, including going to gyarados when he could have sacked rotom-w instead and given gyara more opportunities to check, not switching in latios on several blatantly obvious focus blasts, switching latios out when cbtar is 2hkod by lo or specs surf, and worst of all, protecting with heatran on a 28% landorus. that was plain stupid. any reasonable player there realizes his heatran isn't worth much anymore and that 6% lefties isn't going to make a difference ever, and therefore uses lava plume and shuts down landorus before it even gets going. i mean, come on. if you're going to show us how good landorus is, then, well, show us. this log is a perfect example of a bad player getting beaten by a pokemon he doesn't know how to play around.

edit: interestingly enough, the poll numbers have been hovering right around an even split. however, the anti-suspect side just pulled ahead for the first time in the duration of this thread.

 

[alexwolf]

Something else i don't like in the arguments of the pro-suspect Landorus is that they always assume Tyranitar as a partner to Landorus but that the check or counter that is being discussed is always alone. Landorus is a top tier threat and if you don't have a hard counter for it or the common strategies that revolve around it (Pursuit support in Landorus's case) it is only logical that you should pack multiple checks for it. I even saw some people here say that carrying multiple checks for a threat is unhealthy for the metagame, but how is this true when a bunch of other top-tier Pokemon force every team to do the same? Terrakion, Keldeo, Dragonite, and many other Pokemon can never be held back without hard counters or multiple checks, so the fact that you need multiple checks to deal with Landorus is nothing new at all.

As someone else has posted, Keldeo + Latios check Landorus pretty good, as Landorus has to predict right or else his team will be in serious danger, and not even a Tyranitar partnership can change that. There are many other ways to check Landorus with multiple Pokemon and there is no need to mention them all, as Landorus has many checks that create many dual combos. I have already mentioned some of them in a list one or two pages behind and it is very easy to think of more right now:

Rotom-W + Latios
Gengar + Rotom-W
DD Gyarados + something to deal with its checks (btw DD Gyarados destroyes the team that kd24 has posted)

So i want to see some clever thinking and some effort to deal with the threat called Landorus, and after this happens we can see if he deserves to be a suspect or not. I think that everyone getting crazy about how good U-turn Landorus is and how effectively it beats some counters to the Rock Polish set, after just a few days it was used effectively on the ladder, speaks volumes of what i want to say. Some people are too hasty to suspect something without even trying to find other ways of dealing with it instead of their cookie-cutter 2-3 ways that work in the teams they usually make and they like to make. Adapt to a threat before suspecting it, and if adaption doesn't work, THEN hunt down the culprit.

 

[Hemp Man]

vemane's log demonstrates really well how landorus isn't a threat if you know how to play. his opponent makes a ton of blunders, including going to gyarados when he could have sacked rotom-w instead and given gyara more opportunities to check, not switching in latios on several blatantly obvious focus blasts, switching latios out when cbtar is 2hkod by lo or specs surf, and worst of all, protecting with heatran on a 28% landorus. that was plain stupid. any reasonable player there realizes his heatran isn't worth much anymore and that 6% lefties isn't going to make a difference ever, and therefore uses lava plume and shuts down landorus before it even gets going. i mean, come on. if you're going to show us how good landorus is, then, well, show us. this log is a perfect example of a bad player getting beaten by a pokemon he doesn't know how to play around.

edit: interestingly enough, the poll numbers have been hovering right around an even split. however, the anti-suspect side just pulled ahead for the first time in the duration of this thread.

Yeah the player seemed too protect-savy with Heatran, it was almost like a free invite for Rock Polish. Also, I wouldn't have tried to Dragon Dance when the foe still had a Skarmory, unless I was running Taunt on that same set.

 

[ginganinja]

As i said, the pokemon can not switch in directly. What you can do however, is sack heatran. If the landorus attempts to set up, flamethrower will do a lot of damage. If landorus kills it, you can switch in something like vaporeon. Yes your oppoment can switch out. The point is that then, landorus is forced out and cannot sweep. I Would also like to point out that not all of the pokemon are stallers. There are offensive politoeds, rotom-w, celebi, etc. the oppoment is likely to be carrying at least one if the pokemon mentioned in the list. Rotom-w, politoed, scizor are all very common. Also, please don't try to say that landorus can get by pokemon like celebi with u-turn as the move is rarely, if ever seen on landorus, unless it is a physical set. Finally, I would like to point out that focus blast only has a 49% chance of hitting twice. This means that you are essentially relying on a move like zap cannon to knock out a rotom-w.

Yea, I really dislike this line of thinking. Sure, it happens in matchs, but if you have to sac something every time to Landorus-I to get in your "vaporeon or whatever". then you really have a problem. In your own example, I just OHKOed your Heatran, you bring in Vaporeon, and now that iv gotten a 1 for 0 trade, I can switch out to something that beats Vaporeon (like idk, a Celebi), and then later on in the match, I can bring in Landorus-I on something else I threaten to KO, and again you have to sac something to bring Vaporeon in, and again I switch out and the cycle goes around and around. I seriously don't know why you endorse sacing something whenever Landorus-I switchs in as its sort of proving my point but ok.

Secondly the moment you start bringing up "Offensive Politoed" and "Offensive Rotom-W" your check gets pretty shaky. For instance I was watching kd24 ladder and Focus Blast just flat out OHKOed Rotom-W with SR, 4/0 Politoed takes a boatload from EP as well, so your Offensive Rotom-W / Politoed / Scizor actually do a worse job at checking Landorus-I if they EV themselves to be more aggressive. Also don't ignore U-Turn on Landorus-I, its an excellent move for crippling a Celebi / Lati@s switch since you get excellent damage on them AND get the free switch to Tyranitar for the Pursuit / Crunch (depends on if your CB or Scarf). Sure, its giving up Rock Polish to sweep, but the entire point is using it as an excellent lure so you usually have something like Scarf Keldeo which will rip through offensive teams when you take out those mons, while against balance or something you don't really need a Rock Polish anyway.

Rotom-W + Latios

yea, I really, really don't like that core at defending that common core used with Landorus-I that you just mentioned. Latios is total Pursuit bait, and it cannot really switch in on Landorus-I since a) it might have U-Turn and b) even a Focus Blast gradually lowers its health for a Keldeo to sweep / Landorus to RP the moment Latios drops to like 70% health? All the while your Latios has to dodge the Tyranitar, and your Rotom-W has to worry about a 2KO from Focus Blast and potentially wants to be at high health for that Keldeo you mentioned etc etc. The other 2 cores, I can maybe see, since I havn't played those cores enough with Landorus-I, but against Rotom-W + Latios its often very easy to crack open and sweep (Unless its like Latios / Rotom-W / Celebi in which case your borderline stacking but w/e).

 

[alexwolf]

yea, I really, really don't like that core at defending that common core used with Landorus-I that you just mentioned. Latios is total Pursuit bait, and it cannot really switch in on Landorus-I since a) it might have U-Turn and b) even a Focus Blast gradually lowers its health for a Keldeo to sweep / Landorus to RP the moment Latios drops to like 70% health? All the while your Latios has to dodge the Tyranitar, and your Rotom-W has to worry about a 2KO from Focus Blast and potentially wants to be at high health for that Keldeo you mentioned etc etc. The other 2 cores, I can maybe see, since I havn't played those cores enough with Landorus-I, but against Rotom-W + Latios its often very easy to crack open and sweep (Unless its like Latios / Rotom-W / Celebi in which case your borderline stacking but w/e).

Latios is not Pursuit bait, it can be pursuited after you sacrifice something and those two situations are very different. Second, of 'course Latios can switch into Landorus, not particularly caring about half of the U-turn set (EP and FB) or 3/4 of the RP set (EP, FB, and RP), as long as you have the right pivots of 'course. If Landorus wants to fuck around with U-turn then go to Rotom-W and suffer little damage, and next time Landorus comes in it will have 65% life left (10% from LO and two SR switch-ins), getting OHKOed by practically any offensive Pokemon and CB Scizor if it uses any move that trigers LO once more. If Landorus goes for HP Ice and you switch to Rotom-W, bad news for Landorus once again, as it has to switch out and either let something get paralzed/burned or let you have the momentum due to Volt Switch. Finally if Landorus goes for Focus Blast, that's were Latios(or LO Latias) comes and saves the day, tanking the hit and seriously threatening the oppostion with a kill. Of 'course Landorus can come in later and get past the combo just by spamming FB once Latios is weakened, but at this moment the Latios user will already have gotten a kill, residual damage on Landorus, and the momentum on his favor if Landorus kills it.

Also, you should still have revenge killers to Landorus, aside from the two checks i mentioned. Most balanced teams have 2-3 offensive Pokemon, and Latios is only one, meaning that there is room for 1-2 more, be it a priority user or a scarfer, the fact is that they will be able to revenge kill Landorus too. So between Rotom-W, Latios, and the other 1-2 Pokemon that can revenge kill an unboosted Landorus, Landorus can in no way sweep easily. With the proper predictions and weakening of 'course he can, but not easier or better than any top tier sweeper in OU. Not to mention that Landorus is not a reliable seeper at all due to Focus Blast.

 

[ginganinja]

Just for reference

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 169-200 (55.96 - 66.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Is what HP Ice does to Latios while Focus Blast does 31-36%. This means that you can switch in on a Focus Blast ONCE, but then HP Ice WILL kill you next time. It isn't hard to get Latios into that KO range especially when LO is losing 16% per turn, as well as taking SR damage. Worth noting thats Timid which means you have even less leeway against Modest Landorus-I.

Secondly I just wanted to highlight something

it can be pursuited after you sacrifice something

Finally if Landorus goes for Focus Blast, that's were Latios(or LO Latias) comes and saves the day, tanking the hit and seriously threatening the oppostion with a kill. Of 'course Landorus can come in later and get past the combo just by spamming FB once Latios is weakened, but at this moment the Latios user will already have gotten a kill, residual damage on Landorus, and the momentum on his favor if Landorus kills it.

So to get this straight, when you bring in Latios on a Focus Blast, you lose 30% ish, and you then...switch back out? The moment you get a kill, Latios is gone baby, heck, just bringing it in risks a double switch to Tar which is always something I am aware of when I use Lati@s. So really, If Latios switchs in on a Focus Blast, you are now in HP Ice kill range, you cannot kill anything because Tyranitar traps you, heck, using anything other than Surf is risky due to Tyranitars presence, Recover is out as wellso yea, I just don't see it man, im really sorry but in my actual experience on the ladder, I'll just overload your core and bring in Keldeo / Landorus (which ever one overloaded) and clean up.

Also, you should still have revenge killers to Landorus

If its not named Azumarril or Mamoswine (or Weavile I guess) you really need a weakened Landorus-I if you want to kill it, which means it needs to have taken a fair bit of SR damage (which means its switched in say around 4 times (lets assume its gotten 4 attacks off as well) and severely damaged your core). If your revenge killer is scarfed, then awesome, ill Rock Polish and laugh as you fail to revenge kill me.

Latios is not Pursuit bait

Pretty sure it is but hey if you want to argue that point im fine with it.

 

[Curtains]

I have been testing this thing out and I must say that this thing isn't really living up to the expectations put up in this thread. If you can get in safely and put up a RP and then not miss a FB a possible 2-3 times then yeah this thing is broken for you. Otherwise it functions well as solid midgame pokemon. I like the (ground move)/hp ice/(filler move)/u-turn set with the appropriate boosting ability. It certainly isn't broken and has many checks and counters. I used the standard sand cheese core of keldeo/tyranitar and land-i. It was okay... I think ginganinja kd and friends really underestimate what pokemon like lati@s and celebi can do. They both can bring on the same amount of unpredictably as land-i. U-turn also isnt winning strongest attack of the year either. The fact is any pokemon can counter land-i depending on the set. It is still the burden of both players to scout each set and proceed from there. I don't get the crazy feeling of power like I got from Genesect. Genesect should be the model of a raw suspect/uber pokemon. Not some guys pub stomping on a random afternoon (sorry kd). I don't feel it with land-i. The problem with land-i's suspect argument is that nothing is automatic or guaranteed. I don't think this pokemon can simply be broken down into simple counter A counter B theorymon. With so many other key threats around the metagame I don't see this thing functioning as a metagame changer. Land-i is just another OU powerhouse I have to successfully team build for. I have to play good meaningful pokemon to beat it. Yes land-i makes for an interesting win condition endgame pokemon with the right teammates. It is really good at that. But there are other very good win condition pokemon that do not rely on the shittyness of focus blast and the waste of a move to be at its fullest potential.

summary:

• It needs teammates and hazards to really be a awesome threat.
• The coverage moves it has really hinder its ability to be a metagame sweeper. It doesn't beat 2-3 pokemon of a good time easily.
• it's u-turn ability is shaky since its u-turn is so weak and it can't come in and out of SR for long.
• Rock polish sets work good as a win condition but it takes time and risk to set up. Also depending on the team you will not set it up at all.

edit: alexwolf's last post really sums up the problem with the lati@s pursuit bait deal.... the lati@s user has a move as well (actually 2!)

edit 2: also i want to comment on the point of "overloading". It doesnt really work in this offensive metagame. If your opponent is only thinking defensive minded then yes his counters will get overloaded. But if you play correctly and play in your own playstyle then overloading should never be an issue because naturally you have offensive and defensive ways to beat those pokemon. Many top teams in RMT have this motif. This metagame is more about thinking ahead and smart attacking than defense (gen 4 was more about defense imo).

 

[alexwolf]

Just for reference

Is what HP Ice does to Latios while Focus Blast does 31-36%. This means that you can switch in on a Focus Blast ONCE, but then HP Ice WILL kill you next time. It isn't hard to get Latios into that KO range especially when LO is losing 16% per turn, as well as taking SR damage. Worth noting thats Timid which means you have even less leeway against Modest Landorus-I.

Secondly I just wanted to highlight something

So to get this straight, when you bring in Latios on a Focus Blast, you lose 30% ish, and you then...switch back out? The moment you get a kill, Latios is gone baby, heck, just bringing it in risks a double switch to Tar which is always something I am aware of when I use Lati@s. So really, If Latios switchs in on a Focus Blast, you are now in HP Ice kill range, you cannot kill anything because Tyranitar traps you, heck, using anything other than Surf is risky due to Tyranitars presence, Recover is out as wellso yea, I just don't see it man, im really sorry but in my actual experience on the ladder, I'll just overload your core and bring in Keldeo / Landorus (which ever one overloaded) and clean up.

Ok i worded it wrong. Of 'course when you bring Latios in you get the KO on whatever you have the chance to (most of the time) and then you get trapped, but you still have the momentum and a dangerous sweeper that can abuse the hell out of Tyranitar (or whatever you use to take advantage of a choice locked Ttar, and if you dont that's your fault, you gotta have some Ttar insurrance when using Latios, it is common sense). And if the opponent doesn't have Tyranitar, then hapens what i mentioned the first time (switch into Landorus for the first time, KO something, die to Landorus on the second switch-in).

If its not named Azumarril or Mamoswine (or Weavile I guess) you really need a weakened Landorus-I if you want to kill it, which means it needs to have taken a fair bit of SR damage (which means its switched in say around 4 times (lets assume its gotten 4 attacks off as well) and severely damaged your core). If your revenge killer is scarfed, then awesome, ill Rock Polish and laugh as you fail to revenge kill me.

After a few SR rounds and a couple of LO recoils, Landorus dies to pretty much any offensive Pokemon, as i already mentioned. I don't get where you base you irony around. Are two SR switch-ins and one LO round so far-fetched to happen in a battle? Bring Landorus in and HP Ice something on the switch and then get forced out, then boom, next turn you come in you have 65% life. To be able to succesfull use Rock Polish and sweep you must have first managed to eliminate SpD Rotom-W (we were talking about Latios + Rotom-W VS RP Landorus + CBTar), which didn't happen in the scenario we talked about. It went like this: Latios comes into whatever move Landorus uses and then gets a kill. Then Tyranitar comes in and traps. Next time you bring in Landorus it will be between 65% and 75% life (depends if it used HP Ice on the Latios switch-in), assuming it got in twice safely and SR is up. As you see you can't get a sweep with Rock Polish as Rotom-W is still healthy enough to halt your sweep, so the best you can do is 2HKO Rotom-W with Focus Blast (assuming you predict correctly the switch-in and win the coinflip of two FB connecting). Then you will be forced out by the scarfer/Mamo/Weavile/Azumarill/any faster offensive mon and you will need to get in safely for a third time and find a free set-up chance in order to sweep (not so easy with 53%-63% life left). So all i want to say is that Rotom-W + Latios can hold Landorus back just fine, as long as you have enough offensive pressure to prevent Landorus from getting too many free switch-ins and outspeed it with a few Pokemon when it is unboosted (or with priority).

 

[Vashimus]

Maybe Lati@s + Duggy can get around T-tar, but it requires a lot of prediction and at that point we're grasping at straws I guess...

 

[shrang]

Just saying

Yea, I really dislike this line of thinking. Sure, it happens in matchs, but if you have to sac something every time to Landorus-I to get in your "vaporeon or whatever". then you really have a problem. In your own example, I just OHKOed your Heatran, you bring in Vaporeon, and now that iv gotten a 1 for 0 trade, I can switch out to something that beats Vaporeon (like idk, a Celebi), and then later on in the match, I can bring in Landorus-I on something else I threaten to KO, and again you have to sac something to bring Vaporeon in, and again I switch out and the cycle goes around and around. I seriously don't know why you endorse sacing something whenever Landorus-I switchs in as its sort of proving my point but ok.

Weren't you just using this argument just before, about how you death fodder something to Latios, Pursuit it, then set up and sweep with Landorus? You're still acting like Landorus gets team support but your counters don't. That's the big flaw in all these arguments right there, because you're comparing two different things.

 

[Ricky Horror]

Baton pass Celebi to Dugtrio end of Tyranitar and this nonsense combo. Beginning to look like the Genesect+Dugtrio argument.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Just saying



Weren't you just using this argument just before, about how you death fodder something to Latios, Pursuit it, then set up and sweep with Landorus? You're still acting like Landorus gets team support but your counters don't. That's the big flaw in all these arguments right there, because you're comparing two different things.

There's a big difference. If you sack something to Latios and then kill it with Pursuit, then it's finished. You don't have to worry about Latios anymore. However, if you're having to sack something to Landorus every time you want to bring in your Vaporeon or something, but at the same time you're not doing anything to keep Landorus from just switching out and coming back in later, then you're really getting nowhere fast.

 

[ginganinja]

Weren't you just using this argument just before, about how you death fodder something to Latios, Pursuit it, then set up and sweep with Landorus? You're still acting like Landorus gets team support but your counters don't. That's the big flaw in all these arguments right there, because you're comparing two different things.

There is are big difference between the 2 cases. Firstly, in the case of Landorus, its a 1 for 0 scenario, in that I get a free KO and you get nothing. Against Latios, I don't have to sac anything, I can if I want, and if Latios gets a kill then I trap with Tar for a 1 for 1 trade. I really don't see how you can compare them and I do find it ironic that you acuse of me come comparing 2 different things and then you go and do it -_-. I don't have to sac something to Latios every single time however the poster I was responding to was actually encouraging sacrificing a mon to Landorus-I each time to get your full health Vaporeon in.

I really am utterly confused at how much you misinterpreted my post but w/e

Not going to respond to alexwolf since its apparent we are talking about 2 different things rofl

EDIT

ninjaed by Agent Gibbs who basically said the same thing I did (TY)

 

[shrang]

There's a big difference. If you sack something to Latios and then kill it with Pursuit, then it's finished. You don't have to worry about Latios anymore. However, if you're having to sack something to Landorus every time you want to bring in your Vaporeon or something, but at the same time you're not doing anything to keep Landorus from just switching out and coming back in later, then you're really getting nowhere fast.

However, this does not equate to Landorus getting a free sweep. Many things could happen between Latios getting Pursuited and you getting that sweep which could prevent the sweep from happening at all. You're acting like Latios dies, the game is finished, Landorus has free rein. It doesn't. Therefore, getting rid of Latios via an external method doesn't help the case at all. Easiest case is you send in Tyranitar, Pursuit the Latios, then in comes an opposing SubSD Terrakion and wrecks your ass. If you're going to bring team support into the equation, then I may as well bring team support for Latios too. This is why talking about team support just complicates matters.

EDIT: I guess I could also address your "Pursuit Latios, it's gone, but Landorus can keep coming back". I won't contest that because it's true, but if I sack my Heatran or something like that your Landorus, I'm saccing it for a good reason. If I make a team where 3 or 4 Pokemon utterly lose to Landorus and risk it setting up on, then I've made a bad team. If I sac Heatran, the most likely reason is that I can make up for that loss later, not as a last ditch attempt to stop Landorus from setting up. You can kill Heatran and get a 1-0 advantage, but you're unlikely to kill anything else with Landorus, or set up on anything else later in the match.