Gen V Balanced Hackmons

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Redless said:
IMO, Flash fire is one of Esca's best abilities. As a utility counter, it can counter a lot more and be much harder to kill with it's weakness removed. I know that magic bounce Esca is quite effective, but what set do you run with prankster? I'm assuming something with copycat and gyro ball, but what else? Also, I notice that most people beat Esca with imposter. Is there any viable way to make it harder for imposter to check it? I have used Esca quite a bit, and these are the things that I have noticed. What thoughts do you guys have on Escavalier?
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Personally, I've found that while Flash Fire has its uses, it's not really the best ability for Escavalier. Prankster Escavalier is a great user of Destiny Bond due to the fact that it can extend the duration of Destiny Bond to two turns because of its slow speed and is able to hit its opponent with two Gyro Balls immediately afterwards, or can continue to alternate Destiny Bond And Gyro Ball. This makes it great for taking down sweepers that lack their own priority and will almost always take out at least one opponent.

TailsTheeFox said:
;D Is there a way to effectively use Noramlize? I heard Gengar was a good user of it but he's too frail for my tastes, are there any other good users?
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Giratina can be used. It's hardly frail, but it can't sweep in the way Gengar can after one turn of setup because of its low speed and offenses.
 
I have a great idea for Illusion:
Most people expect you to use Illusion/Belly Drum with Slaking or Regigigas, right? Well, how about if you use it on Giratina-O? It can take advantage of Belly Drum (unfortunately, though, not quite as much as the others), but when the opponent tries to use a Fighting-type move to take out what they think is probably Slaking/Regigigas, it becomes too late for them... :P

Seems like a good plan?

EDIT: Ninja'd by DrRobotnik... although I think that he was talking about Giratina-O in a different context than I was.
 
At first it looks mediocre but it can be so gamebreaking that it will guarantee a win if it gets impostered.

Credit goes to me and Nyph (aka Everyone-Test or just Everyone)

Jirachi @ Mind Plate
Trait: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
IVs: null Atk
- Stored Power
- Protect
- Shell Smash
- Aura Sphere

Both a horribly dangerous sweeper and a lurer. After all only heart swap prankster will fully stop this set and of course imposters will give you a win condition.

Jirachi @ Mind Plate
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
IVs: null Atk
- Aura Sphere
- Stored Power
- Copycat
- Shell Smash

This jirachi is also imposter bait which guarantee's victory against many skilled foes using imposter. After he functions as the sweeper.

Spiritomb (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Bold Nature
- Night Daze
- Acupressure
- Substitute
- Baton Pass

Once one of the jirachi's are impostered. Simply switch to him and almost guarantee victory by repeatedly using Acupressure until it uses struggle. After baton pass a substitute.

I know you are all skeptical so I saved a replay:
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons13261548

Let me know what you think, Because at first I thought it might be too gimmicky but it is doing surprisingly well.
 
Belly Drum, Rest, Shadow (whatever), Outrage. Harvest-Lum Berry, Giratina-O or Slaking. Mah gawd. Anywho, thay imposter bait his hilarous as it actually works. Nicely done! :D
 
played a really good game yesterday, probably the best game ive been involved in in a while, i would warstory it... but commentary on 76 turns woudl be way too much work....

anyways it showcased just how effective prankster sub lugia is (and i think if hed had baton pass i would have lost)
 
That specific set is one that I would like to take credit for. I was originally using it on a lead Giratina, and in fact Klang uses Lugia specifically for its ability to outspeed Giratina. I also run stealth rock on mine, last I checked, Klang runs spikes. IMO, prankster leads are really underused in the metagame right now, as the ability to pull off a sub with a bulky Pokemon is great when most leads are deoxys speed with relatively low damage output. It is incredibly difficult to deal with a lead like that with your lead while also maintaining a viable lead for yourself. Later in the game, it can still wield a prankster spore to quash sweepers that would otherwise demolish a team. I use it with the perish trap Giratina that I mentioned a few pages ago, because once the opposing magic bouncers are dealt with via perish trapping, it becomes incredibly hard to stop. With their insane bulk, Giratina and Lugia are probably the best Pokemon for the job; I prefer Giratina because of it's ability to spinblock while spreading sleep and damage. Prankster substitute is one of the most threatening things to use on the first turn as it beats magic coat and spore, two common first turn choices. In general, Giratina or Lugia with that moveset are two Pokemon that I find I can basically slap on any team in the lead slot and have major success with. Of course, they do better with support, but doesn't everything?
 
Imanalt said:
played a really good game yesterday, probably the best game ive been involved in in a while, i would warstory it... but commentary on 76 turns woudl be way too much work....

anyways it showcased just how effective prankster sub lugia is (and i think if hed had baton pass i would have lost)
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That Prankster Lugia set reminds me of my Registeel set that I used to use in the summer of 2012, though I hadn't used it as a lead. Lugia is certainly a better user of it in today's metagame

Regarding Adrian Marin's Magnet Pull Spiritomb strategy, I think it is a great example of why Imposter is as much a disadvantage to your team these days as it is a benefit. But considering how common imposter still is, I think that it's a good strategy. The problem of course is that the Spiritomb isn't very useful if your opponent doesn't use Imposter to counter your Jirachi, or if they don't have Imposter at all. I think it would be better if you used Judgement over Stored Power as then you could replace Spiritomb with something like Magnet Pull Giratina, which would be more useful if you aren't able to pull off your Imposter trapping strategy.
 
Varfor said:
That Prankster Lugia set reminds me of my Registeel set that I used to use in the summer of 2012, though I hadn't used it as a lead. Lugia is certainly a better user of it in today's metagame

Regarding Adrian Marin's Magnet Pull Spiritomb strategy, I think it is a great example of why Imposter is as much a disadvantage to your team these days as it is a benefit. But considering how common imposter still is, I think that it's a good strategy. The problem of course is that the Spiritomb isn't very useful if your opponent doesn't use Imposter to counter your Jirachi, or if they don't have Imposter at all. I think it would be better if you used Judgement over Stored Power as then you could replace Spiritomb with something like Magnet Pull Giratina, which would be more useful if you aren't able to pull off your Imposter trapping strategy.
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Well jirachi is pitifully weak in the first place for such a metagame, Adding judgement only gives you a reason to use another pokemon like Genesect. I think it's a good idea to put Genesect as the Imposter bait if you really are that scared of Imposter, But it does seem a bit counter productive considering the whole point is for Imposters to try and counter it.Spiritomb is deadweight without an imposter pokemon unlike Giratina. It all comes down to personal choice in the end as both will probably do a good job as an Imposter bait pokemon (or whatever it should be called.)
 
Ideas for sun

I use a lugia set in sun that can baton pass ridiculous stat boosts and a substitute 90% of the time:

Lugia @ Whatever pinch berry you need
Timid nature
Ability:Harvest
Max EVs in everything
- Protect
- Substitute
- Ice Beam
- Baton Pass

I. Love. This. Set. Many of my games have ended with a 5-turn sweep of Chlorophyll White Kyurem at 4x SpA. Using this set is simple. Substitute down to Petaya Berry range and then alternate Protect and Ice Beam to get more boosts and remove some Pokemon for your Baton Pass reciever. When your SpA is maxed out, Baton Pass, usually with a Substitute, and have a 4x Sweeper with immunity to status, Dragon Tail, and Imposter ready to wreck everything. Petaya berry is used instead of Salac Berry because by the first use of Ice Beam Lugia has the equivalent of a Tail Glow.
 
I made a new incredibly effective Regigigas set!! (at least it was effective in almost all of my matches.)

Regigigigear (Regigigas) @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Facade
- Psycho Shift/Filler
- Imprison/Dragon Tail
- Recover/Protect

This set is made to do 3 things at once, Offense, Defense, and a Status Absorber.
Facade hits very hard without boosts, meanwhile Ssychoshift stops most of Regigigas's counters (Common physical walls like groudon and rhydon cannot defeat this set and is easy to switch against most of the time as a Nature Power from groudon will only 4HKO it).If you don't think Psychoshift is a good idea then you could use a move like spore or Rapid spin. Imprison is used to stop the common Imposter pokemons who may annoy your team. while Dragon Tail allows you to phaze foes, while damaging them. The choice between Recover and Protect is entirely up to the user.
 
Adrian Marin said:
I made a new incredibly effective Regigigas set!! (at least it was effective in almost all of my matches.)

Regigigigear (Regigigas) @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Facade
- Psycho Shift/Filler
- Imprison/Dragon Tail
- Recover/Protect

This set is made to do 3 things at once, Offense, Defense, and a Status Absorber.
Facade hits very hard without boosts, meanwhile Ssychoshift stops most of Regigigas's counters (Common physical walls like groudon and rhydon cannot defeat this set and is easy to switch against most of the time as a Nature Power from groudon will only 4HKO it).If you don't think Psychoshift is a good idea then you could use a move like spore or Rapid spin. Imprison is used to stop the common Imposter pokemons who may annoy your team. while Dragon Tail allows you to phaze foes, while damaging them. The choice between Recover and Protect is entirely up to the user.
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I can attest to the effectiveness of this set, at least against my own team. Of course, it gets screwed by Skarmory and other defensive steels, but it seems to do pretty well apart from that.

DrRobotnik said:
@ghana77 you might want to take out all the EVs and IVs in Attack to make payback less effective.
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Foul play, but yes.
 
Redless said:
I can attest to the effectiveness of this set, at least against my own team. Of course, it gets screwed by Skarmory and other defensive steels, but it seems to do pretty well apart from that.



Foul play, but yes.
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Surprisingly, Regigigas can beat the mighty Escavalier:

252+ Atk Regigigas Facade vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Escavalier: 112-132 (32.55 - 38.37%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO

Ok not very strong but its the same for Regigigas with poison heal:

252+ Atk Escavalier Gyro Ball (147 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Regigigas: 201-237 (47.4 - 55.89%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Both are practically a guaranteed 3HKO the former being 99% without leftovers.

But wait how does this make him beat the mighty Escavalier?? Facade has 32 PP while gyro ball has 8 and Recover has 16, which means (Provided Regigigas doesn't get haxed) it will be able to stall it out with Facade and Recover.

Most bulky steels will check regigigas but not all, which makes him even better.
 
I've found this to be a totally broken strategy (probably already discovered but whatever, would like to see thoughts on it). Its sets like these that really make me think balanced hackmons needs sleep clause

Lead: Deoxys-S
Ability: Mold Breaker
Nature: Jolly
-Taunt/recycle
-Spore
-Dragon Tail/Whirlwind
-Stealth Rock

This set abuses two things. BW sleep mechanics and and lack of sleep clause in balanced hackmons. This Deoxys will spore any lead (mold breaker prevents any ability from working). Then you can set up Stealth Rock, and dragon tail or whirlwind your opponent out. Dragon tail helps in sweeping, whilst whirlwind is more reliable since it doesn't miss. But you can literally sweep entire teams with this set as nothing really ever gets a shot at you. If your opponent only has one user of prankster its almost a guaranteed win. Even if they do have more than one, they need luck to counter this. I also pair this with it:

Lugia @ leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Nature: Jolly
-dragon tail
-Substitute
-spore
-heart swap

does the same thing as deoxys, but since rocks are already up, it can afford to run prankster. Heart swap is there for security in regards to the team as a whole and substitute is awesome, as normally the only strategy the opponent can have on this is using spore back at me. This lugia stops the few things that can stop deoxys (Espeed users and things of that nature)
 
nov said:
I've found this to be a totally broken strategy (probably already discovered but whatever, would like to see thoughts on it). Its sets like these that really make me think balanced hackmons needs sleep clause

Lead: Deoxys-S
Ability: Mold Breaker
Nature: Jolly
-Taunt/recycle
-Spore
-Dragon Tail/Whirlwind
-Stealth Rock

This set abuses two things. BW sleep mechanics and and lack of sleep clause in balanced hackmons. This Deoxys will spore any lead (mold breaker prevents any ability from working). Then you can set up Stealth Rock, and dragon tail or whirlwind your opponent out. Dragon tail helps in sweeping, whilst whirlwind is more reliable since it doesn't miss. But you can literally sweep entire teams with this set as nothing really ever gets a shot at you. If your opponent only has one user of prankster its almost a guaranteed win. Even if they do have more than one, they need luck to counter this. I also pair this with it:

Lugia @ leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Nature: Jolly
-dragon tail
-Substitute
-spore
-heart swap

does the same thing as deoxys, but since rocks are already up, it can afford to run prankster. Heart swap is there for security in regards to the team as a whole and substitute is awesome, as normally the only strategy the opponent can have on this is using spore back at me. This lugia stops the few things that can stop deoxys (Espeed users and things of that nature)
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Which is why I have my regigigas set for anti status and my lead, Arceus:


Arceus @ Life Orb
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Lonely Nature
- Fake Out
- Attack Order
- Draco Meteor
- ExtremeSpeed

It counters all deoxys-s with fake out and attack order so its not really brokened as you might think it is as a lead

Nyph gave me the idea about speed boost.

Magic Coat is also extremely common so good luck.
..
However that Lugia set is extremely effective with Baton Pass in the set so be sure to test it out.
 
nov said:
I've found this to be a totally broken strategy (probably already discovered but whatever, would like to see thoughts on it). Its sets like these that really make me think balanced hackmons needs sleep clause

Lead: Deoxys-S
Ability: Mold Breaker
Nature: Jolly
-Taunt/recycle
-Spore
-Dragon Tail/Whirlwind
-Stealth Rock

This set abuses two things. BW sleep mechanics and and lack of sleep clause in balanced hackmons. This Deoxys will spore any lead (mold breaker prevents any ability from working). Then you can set up Stealth Rock, and dragon tail or whirlwind your opponent out. Dragon tail helps in sweeping, whilst whirlwind is more reliable since it doesn't miss. But you can literally sweep entire teams with this set as nothing really ever gets a shot at you. If your opponent only has one user of prankster its almost a guaranteed win. Even if they do have more than one, they need luck to counter this. I also pair this with it:

Lugia @ leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Nature: Jolly
-dragon tail
-Substitute
-spore
-heart swap

does the same thing as deoxys, but since rocks are already up, it can afford to run prankster. Heart swap is there for security in regards to the team as a whole and substitute is awesome, as normally the only strategy the opponent can have on this is using spore back at me. This lugia stops the few things that can stop deoxys (Espeed users and things of that nature)
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There are two major reasons why sleep clause isnt needed, and every bh team should have both: magic bounce and magic coat. Its very hard to spread sleep against a competent player with the prevalence of these things.
 
nov said:
I've found this to be a totally broken strategy (probably already discovered but whatever, would like to see thoughts on it). Its sets like these that really make me think balanced hackmons needs sleep clause

Lead: Deoxys-S
Ability: Mold Breaker
Nature: Jolly
-Taunt/recycle
-Spore
-Dragon Tail/Whirlwind
-Stealth Rock

This set abuses two things. BW sleep mechanics and and lack of sleep clause in balanced hackmons. This Deoxys will spore any lead (mold breaker prevents any ability from working). Then you can set up Stealth Rock, and dragon tail or whirlwind your opponent out. Dragon tail helps in sweeping, whilst whirlwind is more reliable since it doesn't miss. But you can literally sweep entire teams with this set as nothing really ever gets a shot at you. If your opponent only has one user of prankster its almost a guaranteed win. Even if they do have more than one, they need luck to counter this. I also pair this with it:

Lugia @ leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Nature: Jolly
-dragon tail
-Substitute
-spore
-heart swap

does the same thing as deoxys, but since rocks are already up, it can afford to run prankster. Heart swap is there for security in regards to the team as a whole and substitute is awesome, as normally the only strategy the opponent can have on this is using spore back at me. This lugia stops the few things that can stop deoxys (Espeed users and things of that nature)
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As Imanalt said, pretty much every good player has either magic coat or magic guard on everyone (if not the majority) of their pokes. I personally dont have a team with less than 4 magic coats.
 
Mold breaker Deoxys as a spore abuser is typically better in the mid to late game, after most of its checks (magic coat users and toxic orb holders) have been eliminated and lum berries are more likely to be broken. Deoxys S is one of the most commonly prepared for leads, and Mold Breaker Deoxys S with hazards and spore is probably the most common version of Deoxys S sent out as a lead. It's a very good pokemon, but there's no reason not to bring it out later in the game.
Also, imprison+magic coat works nicely for getting around both pranksters and magic coat, two things that commonly threaten Deoxys S. Typically, this set won't run hazards, relying on an earlier pokemon to set them. And even if you lack hazards, sleeping and phazing multiple pokemon should still give you enough of an advantage to win.
 
imo, sleep clause would be really beneficial to the metagame. As imanalt said, a good team needs to have a lot of magic coat users or lum berries, which really shows how centralizing sleep is. Sleep clause being gone would allow for less restricted team building and therefore more variety. Magic coat/bounce users are only a check to sleep though, since anything could be carrying spore. If you were to switch your magic bouncer or use magic coat on something that you think might have spore, it could lead to free setup or a sub. The dangerous thing is that spore could be stuck onto any sweeper, and after setup it can easily sleep any prankster heartswap users or unaware mons that would normally beat it. I know that my stall team can't deal with setup sweepers with spore due to this.
 
lokt said:
imo, sleep clause would be really beneficial to the metagame. As imanalt said, a good team needs to have a lot of magic coat users or lum berries, which really shows how centralizing sleep is. Sleep clause being gone would allow for less restricted team building and therefore more variety. Magic coat/bounce users are only a check to sleep though, since anything could be carrying spore. If you were to switch your magic bouncer or use magic coat on something that you think might have spore, it could lead to free setup or a sub. The dangerous thing is that spore could be stuck onto any sweeper, and after setup it can easily sleep any prankster heartswap users or unaware mons that would normally beat it. I know that my stall team can't deal with setup sweepers with spore due to this.
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The fact is sleep clause wouldnt remove magic bounce and magic coat. Frankly i consider them valuable primarily because they beat stall, which often doesnt employ sleep at all. The fact is a metagame in which any mon can use any status move makes status in general very powerful, which is why magic bounce and coat are used
 
Okay can someone please hear me out. I am a fairly active player in hackmons and bh ranking #4(hackmons) and #2(bh). There is an issue with the tier bh concerning the use of rapid spin scrappy. Unfortunately this tactic is so OP in bh unlike it is in hackmons simply because there is no way to block a scrappy spinner in bh. I am advocating for the ability scrappy to please be taken off the bh ladder. I feel obviously people should have access to rapid spin but not to a rapid spin thats unblockable. Feel free to respond. Thanks!
 
eze2 said:
Okay can someone please hear me out. I am a fairly active player in hackmons and bh ranking #4(hackmons) and #2(bh). There is an issue with the tier bh concerning the use of rapid spin scrappy. Unfortunately this tactic is so OP in bh unlike it is in hackmons simply because there is no way to block a scrappy spinner in bh. I am advocating for the ability scrappy to please be taken off the bh ladder. I feel obviously people should have access to rapid spin but not to a rapid spin thats unblockable. Feel free to respond. Thanks!
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scrappy spin isnt even that good... the lack of an ability that lets you do anytihng other than spin is a really big issue for scrappy mons...
 
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