the thing with that is now sitrus berry activates regardless of gluttony at 50% hp and heatmor is rather slow. you could go with salac but then you'll have a much harder time setting up especially since you're weak to rocks. sucker punch is nice but it doesn't have the valuable +2 priority that extremespeed brings and requires prediction to use at times. i still think linoone or even bellyzard would be more useful simply because of their speed.
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Theorymon Sessions
- Thread starter jake
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How about this then?
What if Torkoal got Morning Sun?
If Rapidash and Arcanine get it, Torkoal getting it shouldn't be too far a stretch right?
This grants us the high survivability Rapid Spinner we've all been looking for. Reliable recovery allows Torkoal to not only outlast spinblockers (immunity to Will-o-Wisp helps!) while reducing his hazard weakness, but also stick around to tank threats such as Scolipede, Primeape, Swellow, Tauros...essentially any physical attacker without super effective STAB. Torkoal can also use his newfound tanking ability to check even more physical threats, such as Gurdurr, by removing their boosts with Clear Smog. Hell, if you really want, Torkoal could also find a new niche in being theonly better Shell Smasher with recovery (f**k Magcargo >:( ), allowing him to possibly nab 2 boosts or giving him a second chance at tearing foes a new one.
What if Torkoal got Morning Sun?
If Rapidash and Arcanine get it, Torkoal getting it shouldn't be too far a stretch right?
This grants us the high survivability Rapid Spinner we've all been looking for. Reliable recovery allows Torkoal to not only outlast spinblockers (immunity to Will-o-Wisp helps!) while reducing his hazard weakness, but also stick around to tank threats such as Scolipede, Primeape, Swellow, Tauros...essentially any physical attacker without super effective STAB. Torkoal can also use his newfound tanking ability to check even more physical threats, such as Gurdurr, by removing their boosts with Clear Smog. Hell, if you really want, Torkoal could also find a new niche in being the
Ok here's one.
What if Gabite got Dragon Dance?
Other than making Garchomp Uber, Gabite would finally not be outclassed by the other dragons in the tier. With a great attacking typing, and great bulk with Eviolite, Gabite would be pretty good.
What if Coil was made a Physical Quiver Dance (+1 Attack, Defense, and Speed)?
Other than Arbok's Gunk Shot, the accuracy boost from Coil is really pointless. So what if it raised Speed? Would our slithery friends such as Eelektross, Arbok, and (lol) Dunsparce rise out of the shadows and become formidable sweepers?
What if Gabite got Dragon Dance?
Other than making Garchomp Uber, Gabite would finally not be outclassed by the other dragons in the tier. With a great attacking typing, and great bulk with Eviolite, Gabite would be pretty good.
What if Coil was made a Physical Quiver Dance (+1 Attack, Defense, and Speed)?
Other than Arbok's Gunk Shot, the accuracy boost from Coil is really pointless. So what if it raised Speed? Would our slithery friends such as Eelektross, Arbok, and (lol) Dunsparce rise out of the shadows and become formidable sweepers?
We've discussed the idea of Coil being a physical Quiver Dance a few pages back, actually. We did point out how dangerous it could be with threats like Eelektross, who's main issue is speed, who would be much better than usual and become a truly meta-changing force. It would destroy Arbok, though, imo.
Seviper would find a speed-boosting Coil pretty favourable, as it's always been let down by piddling Speed and it doesn't use Gunk Shot. Serperior I have no idea; it doesn't really need accuracy so it'd probably appreciate the speed boost more, but it's plenty fast as it is, so Coil wouldn't affect it too much other than allowing it to invest more in bulk.
Seismitoad is based on a toxic toad; it has Sludge Bomb, Sludge Wave, Poison Jab, and Poison Touch. This is the segway into the next question:
What if Seismitoad got Toxic Spikes?
Seismitoad would easily be the best Toxic Spikes user in NU. It has better typing and bulk than Scolipede, and Garbodor is already mostly outclassed by Scolipede to begin with (other than Acid Spray + Focus Blast/Dark Pulse). It also has Earth Power/Earthquake to deal with grounded Poison-types (mostly Skuntank) that like to switch in and absorb the T-Spikes. I see a double hazards lead being popular:
Seismitoad (M/F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Poison Touch/Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP/252 SpA/4 Spe (0 Atk IVs)
Nature: Modest/Bold
-Stealth Rock
-Toxic Spikes
-Earth Power
-Hydro Pump/Grass Knot
The hazards are self-explanatory, and Seismitoad's bulk is actually pretty good once you consider that giant HP stat and few weaknesses. Earth Power is the most reliable STAB to hit grounded Poison-types, as well as Electrode, Zebstrika, Camerupt, etc. Hydro Pump is preferred as a secondary STAB for Ground-types (though it still won't do a ton to Torterra) plus Bastiodon and other vulnerable Pokemon. However, the Water-Ground coverage is not great offensively, so Grass Knot is a nice alternative to hit Pokemon such as Walrein, Dewgong, Torterra, and other Seismitoad. Grass Knot also has the nice bonus of being a direct attack, thus potentially activating Poison Touch.
What if Seismitoad got Toxic Spikes?
Seismitoad would easily be the best Toxic Spikes user in NU. It has better typing and bulk than Scolipede, and Garbodor is already mostly outclassed by Scolipede to begin with (other than Acid Spray + Focus Blast/Dark Pulse). It also has Earth Power/Earthquake to deal with grounded Poison-types (mostly Skuntank) that like to switch in and absorb the T-Spikes. I see a double hazards lead being popular:
Seismitoad (M/F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Poison Touch/Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP/252 SpA/4 Spe (0 Atk IVs)
Nature: Modest/Bold
-Stealth Rock
-Toxic Spikes
-Earth Power
-Hydro Pump/Grass Knot
The hazards are self-explanatory, and Seismitoad's bulk is actually pretty good once you consider that giant HP stat and few weaknesses. Earth Power is the most reliable STAB to hit grounded Poison-types, as well as Electrode, Zebstrika, Camerupt, etc. Hydro Pump is preferred as a secondary STAB for Ground-types (though it still won't do a ton to Torterra) plus Bastiodon and other vulnerable Pokemon. However, the Water-Ground coverage is not great offensively, so Grass Knot is a nice alternative to hit Pokemon such as Walrein, Dewgong, Torterra, and other Seismitoad. Grass Knot also has the nice bonus of being a direct attack, thus potentially activating Poison Touch.
A metagame with Toxic Spikes Seismitoad is a scary metagame indeed. He, as you said, would be by far the best Toxic Spiker in the tier, and just as well it would be a Toxic Spiker who can carry its own weight offensively and defensively. Seismitoad only sports a single weakness, allowing him to easily shrug off most special and physical attacks alike. His great STABs allow him to easily best common spinblockers such as Golurk and Misdreavus (well, he would have to work hard to damage it effectively, but its possible.). It would be a force to be reckoned with for sure, and would be a really good partner for mons such as SD Charizard and SubNP Misdreavus, who force tons of switches, allowing you to poison the majority of the opponent's team and do some major damage due to constant switching while firing off super-powered attacks. it would be an awesome mon for sure, more awesome than usual.
How would it need a "lot" of support when Seismitoed is one of the single best answers to Poison-types in the tier besides Roselia or Vileplume? Unless you're talking about those two (which might I add, they're not particularly common for the time being), I ask that you please think a bit more logically and realistically as to what you're trying to proclaim.
Anyways, Toxic Spikes Seismitoed would be a neat idea, as stated already, Seismitoed already wrecks most Poison types in the tier and opposing Stealth Rock users to begin with, giving it plenty of time to make use of it. It would carry nice placings to more defensive playstyles or offensive playstyles with setup sweepers that like to drag a bit of time as they're setting up, such as SubBU Braviary or Calm Mind Musharna and be a nice addition to more defensive teams thanks to its excellent typing, good bulk and ability that allows it to counter a lot of specific threats.
Seismetoad is definitely not one of the best, as roselia and vileplume can kill with secondary satb, scliopede set up a spikes or swords dance, and skuntank can taunt, though it probably wants to avoid earth power, which is weak for the weak special defensive set. However, toxic spike seismetoad would be very cool. Problem is, it cannot actually absorb toxic spikes, in which you can have a scoliopede to form very great synergy. Stealth rock seismetoad with toxic spikes, hyrdo pump and earth power would be a pretty good set.
...Scolipede is not going to do something as mindless as setting up against a Seismitoed when it will takes a lot of damage on the process with Scald (and potentially get burned) or whatever Water-type move that you're referring to. I guess you're right within the fact that it isn't the best answer against Scolipede but this scenario still stands true. Skuntank is on the same boat here, since it can't really do much damage to with while Seismitoed can strike back hard with Earth Power/Earthquake or Scald, therefore it loses to Seismitoed as well. If you're going to retaliate with a claim against mines as least be remotely accurate as to what you're contending to.
Scald vs. scolipede 39-46%
Scoliopede life orb jolly megahorn vs seismetoad: 60-71%
What the hell is unreasonable that scoliopede comes in on a stealth rock or toxic spike and set up or attack? if seismetoad scalds, it's not setting up hazards. In swarm range, scolipede has a 43.75% to OHKO. Yeah, you have a 30% chance to burn. Nice.
I said skuntank isnt a great counter, as it is 2hko by earth power, but it can do 35-40%, and taunt to prevent hazards.
I don't know what your big deal is dude, you've been pretty aggressive in general as I've noticed, but dont be offensive to me. Thanks.
Scoliopede life orb jolly megahorn vs seismetoad: 60-71%
What the hell is unreasonable that scoliopede comes in on a stealth rock or toxic spike and set up or attack? if seismetoad scalds, it's not setting up hazards. In swarm range, scolipede has a 43.75% to OHKO. Yeah, you have a 30% chance to burn. Nice.
I said skuntank isnt a great counter, as it is 2hko by earth power, but it can do 35-40%, and taunt to prevent hazards.
I don't know what your big deal is dude, you've been pretty aggressive in general as I've noticed, but dont be offensive to me. Thanks.
I wonder if you actually took the time to realize that it is unreasonable within the fact of Scolipede switching in on Seismitoed in general because it could just be the offensive Swift Swim set as well, meaning that it will generally lose on the process if that's the case. Even within the defensive set, it is still 2HKO'd after Stealth Rock is up and still has a pretty realistic chance of getting burned on the process of taking two potential Scalds. I understand that I came off as rude and aggressive as you've stated, so I apologize and will try keep it civilized, but you still need to be more realistic and understand that it's very unlikely that Scolipede would be switching on Seismitoed at all because of what I just stated and the fact that the majority of Seismitoed's switch-ins tends to be resists or something that doesn't take very much from its STAB attacks between both of its sets. Scolipede is not a good example at all.
Also, regarding Skuntank, it's not "countering" Seismitoed at all, lol.
Also, regarding Skuntank, it's not "countering" Seismitoed at all, lol.
If I recall/searched correctly, this hasn't been mentioned.
What if Misdreavus got access to Recover or Moonlight?
Missy is a great mon, however it misses out on reliable recovery outside of Pain Split, meaning it's a lot harder for it to last compared to the Regenerators (Alomomola and Tangela) and Weezing, which has Leftovers, while Missy is forced to use Eviolite. Missy currently is one of the more popular physical walls right now, However, its Nasty Plot set is pretty good at the moment, too. Would this make you change how you use the NP set? Or would this be better fit on just the purely defensive set? Would this make Missy more of a threat in the metagame with reliable recovery? Would you still use Pain Split in some instances? Share yo thoughts.
What if Misdreavus got access to Recover or Moonlight?
Missy is a great mon, however it misses out on reliable recovery outside of Pain Split, meaning it's a lot harder for it to last compared to the Regenerators (Alomomola and Tangela) and Weezing, which has Leftovers, while Missy is forced to use Eviolite. Missy currently is one of the more popular physical walls right now, However, its Nasty Plot set is pretty good at the moment, too. Would this make you change how you use the NP set? Or would this be better fit on just the purely defensive set? Would this make Missy more of a threat in the metagame with reliable recovery? Would you still use Pain Split in some instances? Share yo thoughts.
If Misdreavus would get access to Recover / Moonlight, I'd still use Pain Split at some occasions, as it's a solid damage doer, if you use it against a pokémon that has full health or a lot of health. The alternatives Recover and Moonlight would give it way more ways to play it. As you say, the more Special defensive stuff would work, or you could go mixed. While using Eviolite, Misdreavus would get alot more scary. The sets would vary alot too, so Misdreavus would become a bit more unpredictable, imo.
I feel like Misdreavus with Moonlight or Recover would honestly push it up to S-Rank. Its ability to wall so much of the meta is hindered only by the fact that it can't utilize any reliable Recovery--it doesn't even get to utilize Leftovers due to Eviolite.
With a form of immediate, reliable recovery, it would have the potential to beat many of its current checks. The main way for teams to handle Misdreavus at the moment is through wearing it down over time. This isn't so easy with a form of Recovery.
With a form of immediate, reliable recovery, it would have the potential to beat many of its current checks. The main way for teams to handle Misdreavus at the moment is through wearing it down over time. This isn't so easy with a form of Recovery.
Ok. We don't normally have these, but here's a type change.
What if Kangaskhan was Normal/Fighting?
Lets face it, Kangaskhan looks like a Normal/Fighting type, it has the movepool of a Normal/Fighting type, and think of how much it would benefit. Unresisted STAB due to Scrappy, STAB Drain Punch, a resistance to Stealth Rock, and most importantly, STAB focus punch. Kangaskhan would likely run a set of Fake out/ Substitute/Focus Punch/Sucker Punch or a set with Drain punch. Would this new typing push Kangaskhan out of NU?
What if Kangaskhan was Normal/Fighting?
Lets face it, Kangaskhan looks like a Normal/Fighting type, it has the movepool of a Normal/Fighting type, and think of how much it would benefit. Unresisted STAB due to Scrappy, STAB Drain Punch, a resistance to Stealth Rock, and most importantly, STAB focus punch. Kangaskhan would likely run a set of Fake out/ Substitute/Focus Punch/Sucker Punch or a set with Drain punch. Would this new typing push Kangaskhan out of NU?
We can't change a Pokemons typing, it's against the rules :(
I would honestly prefer Normal Kangaskhan as it doesn't have to worry about a Psychic and a Flying weakness (which became much more prevalent in this meta). The idea of STAB Drain Punches is really cool though, as it can hit Regice and Lickilicky hard unlike the non-STAB one. A SubPunch set would definitely be something to watch out for, but since Kangaskhan only has a decent 90 Base Attack, the likes of its common counters such as Alomomola and Musharna ruins its day.
What if Luxray got Agility?
With great coverage in the form of Wild Charge, Superpower, and Crunch, two good abilities in Guts and Intimidate, would Luxray having access to agility make him a more frequent sweeper in the tier?
Agility would potentially solve one of Luxray's biggest issues, it's speed (the other being it's frail nature between Wild Charge recoil and status damage if guts is being used).
With great coverage in the form of Wild Charge, Superpower, and Crunch, two good abilities in Guts and Intimidate, would Luxray having access to agility make him a more frequent sweeper in the tier?
Agility would potentially solve one of Luxray's biggest issues, it's speed (the other being it's frail nature between Wild Charge recoil and status damage if guts is being used).
Roost:
Japanese: Hane Yasumi (resting my wings)
...^see the problem? Rotom has no wings...
This is why Pokemon like Volcarona and Flygon have Roost while Gyarados and Shaymin-S don't.
Doesn't explain why Mew has Roost though (yes, I know Mew learns all moves, but it had to be pointed out).
Also, Dunsparce. It has such little wings resting them would not matter.
About the earlier point of Misdreavus with Recover;
That would be pretty damn scary. It can easily go over Pain Split (it's better unless you face Alomomola, Wigglytuff or Lickilicky, basically) without causing any hassles on the defensive set, and it would undoubtedly go S-Rank, if not RU.
It would still be pretty interesting, Missy with reliable recovery. Even if that was in the form of Wish, for that matter. Missy has enough bulk to wait a turn against most physical attackers and to use WoW for the turn.
Also, Dunsparce. It has such little wings resting them would not matter.
About the earlier point of Misdreavus with Recover;
That would be pretty damn scary. It can easily go over Pain Split (it's better unless you face Alomomola, Wigglytuff or Lickilicky, basically) without causing any hassles on the defensive set, and it would undoubtedly go S-Rank, if not RU.
It would still be pretty interesting, Missy with reliable recovery. Even if that was in the form of Wish, for that matter. Missy has enough bulk to wait a turn against most physical attackers and to use WoW for the turn.
You answered yourself-- Mew has nothing to do with it because Mew learns everything. And Dunsparce has wings... so yeah
This actually goes with my question...
What if Mantine learned Roost? He's got wings... sort of...
So I saw talk in the BW2 General Metagame thread that Mantine can be used as a sort-of counter to the popular Tyranitar/Keldeo/Landorus core, and I thought about for a little bit. It makes perfect sense (great SpD, resists fighting, ballin' typing), but that lack of recovery throws it off.
I think Roost would also be a great boon for it in NU too. Stealth Rock would no longer be as big a hassle for it (since keeping rocks off the field in NU is a bitch), and he'd be able to check dangerous special attackers like Ludicolo and Gorebyss even better.
I've come to notice that Mantine is a popular topic in this thread, and its easy to say why. Mantine's fantastic typing and SpDef make it a viable counter to many of the powerful special attackers, easily shrugging off any attack from Ludicolo, Gorebyss, and even Jynx bar Psyshock. The only thing really holding back this potentially S-Rank Pokemon is its lack of recovery outside of Rest. Giving Mantine Roost would instantly send him out of NU, no questions asked. He would become a favorite when paired with Electric- immune Pokemon like Gligar in UU if it had instant recovery, allowing him to effortlessly take the Water-, Grass-, and Ice- type attacks that plague him. It would be great for Mantine and great for the metagame.
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