Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[eriados]

buddy, you've been arguing about vaporeon for pages, and practically everyone has told you that you're wrong, with arguments to back it up. can you just accept that you are wrong on this one and move on?

 

[Magcargo]

Nominating Donphan for D-Rank
Donphan's sole purpose in OU is being a sun rapid spinner and more than half the time, it fails at that job, similar to sandslash and claydol. Donphan has a horrible defensive typing, granting it weakness to the common ice, water and grass attacks, while only resisting the rock and poison (and only the former is a relevant offensive type). While it has some nice physical bulk, its special bulk is awful, meaning that it gets 2HKO'd by several common special attacks like fire blast, draco meteor and ice beam. Because donphan usually runs a physically defensive spread, its attacks are so weak that it becomes setup bait for various pokemon. For example, after an intimidate, its ice shard doesn't even 3HKO defensive landorus-t. Even things like salamence can live an uninvested Ice shard and KO back with draco meteor / Fire blast once its weakened. With its uninvested attack in mind, donphan cannot 3HKO physically defensive jellicent, while it 2HKOs in return with scald. Against gengar, ice shard only 6HKOs the sub disable sets, while it gets 2HKO'd in return with shadow ball.
Another reason that donphan should move down to D-Rank is that its outclassed by forretress. Forretress may not be able to beat common spinblockers, but it does have a better defensive typing, volt switch, a more powerful gyro ball and spikes, making it much more useful in the long run.​

Sorry if my reasoning was confusing, but its very late where I live.
Completely agree with the user above me. Accept the fact your wrong instead of continuing a pointless argument.​

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Ill make some nominations that i feel are deserving:
Stoutland B->B+: An excellente revenge killer for sand teams with great bulk and
coverage. Its speed under sandstorm allows it to revenge kill even scarfers (except terrakion/keldeo/latios).

Breloom A->A+: Spore, 130 atk, technician stab bullet seed and mach punch, swords dance. Not much need to be said. Breloom can effectively remove from play one pokemon on your opponent team, cripple another then switch out and revenge kill shit midgame with mach punch. Late game when its counters are removed (and there arent many) it can just setup swords dance and destroy everything. A top tier threat that should never be understimated. If your team lacks a safe switch in for this thing youre going to have a hard time.

Gyarados A-->A: Great bulk, key resistances to bug, fighting, steel, water and an immunity to ground, moxie, dragon dance, water stab. All of these features combined make gyarados one of the best setup sweepers in the game. It can setup on the likes of sp def jirachi, scizor, forretress, tentacruel, gastrodon, lucario, LANDORUS, some KELDEO among others and wreck havoc after just one dragon dance. Moxie only makes it better to ensure the opponent cant afford to sack anything to bring a revenge killer safely.

I disagree for Stoutland going to B+ because it is dependent from sandstorm to be a good revenge killer; its Normal STAB is mediocre and easily walled; it does not have any resistances, making it rather vulnerable to priority despite being bulky; there are some Pokémon very capable of walling him if they switch on the right move (they generally only fear one move that Stoutland may be carrying), with some of them even being capable of switching on every move that Stoutland carries (I will bold those): Jirachi, Scizor, Forretress, Ferrothorn (fears Superpower), Skarmory (fears Wild Charge), physically defensive Hippowdon, and even some lesser Pokémon like Sableye and Metagross. Finally, there are arguably better options like Terrakion and Landorus.

For Breloom, I am not sure if it deserves to go to A+. While all that was said about it is true, Breloom has some serious flaws. Once it has used Spore, it isn't as threathening. It is badly walled by Celebi, which has became very common because it can wall Keldeo and Sheer Force Landorus. There are many faster Pokémon that resist Mach Munch, such as Tornadus, Starmie, Lati@s, Landorus, and even rare threats like NP Celebi and sun Pokémon like Venusaur and Victini; each of them also have attacks that can easily get rid of Breloom. However, Breloom is still good. There were many times that I swept unprepared opponents with this thing. A fun fact: Breloom can OHKO an 4/0 Volcarona with +2 Adamant Mach Punch after Stealth Rock. You do not know how many times the opponent switched their Volcarona thinking they could simply defeat Breloom without a second thougth due to Volcarona's resistance to Mach Punch.

For Gyarados, I definitively agree for it being A. It is an amazing Pokémon right now, capable of walling special Landorus, as well as Keldeo that lack Hidden Power Electric. What is better, is that Gyarados can counter both without being vulnerable to Tyranitar. In fact, Gyarados can beat Tyranitar by itself. Many Fighting-types are stopping using Stone Edge to use Ice Punch because they feel like Gliscor, Landorus, and Dragon-types are higher threats than Gyarados; this means that fewer and fewer Pokémon are carrying attacks that can actually hit Gyarados super-effectively. Is only real flaws are its weakness to Stealth Rock and 4x weakness to Electric-type attacks, because otherwise Gyarados is an excellent Pokémon. Speed is also a minor problem for it because it gets outrun by most Scarf Pokémon even after a Dragon Dance, but with exception of Latios, there aren't any Pokémon that outspeed or pack priority that are going to revenge kill Gyarados unless they pack super-effective attacks to use against it.

 

[Manectrifier]

I was looking through this list, and I saw Bisharp in D! I've been using him on my recent team, and I can say he deserves better than D-rank. I'd say he's at least C-rank. Bisharp has several niches that it can execute well if you play well with it. It's biggest drawback is that it is heavily reliant on prediction, but a good player can use Bisharp to its fullest extent. Bisharp's pros:

-Steel typing with excellent defenses. Can take several Outrages before defeating the opposing dragon with....
-STAB Sucker Punch. After a Swords Dance, Sucker Punch KO's everything in the tier that attacks it and doesn't resist it. Again, pretty prediction-reliant, but very powerful.
-Two immunities. These are key to setting up a Bisharp sweep. Alakazam threathening your Keldeo? Switch in Bisharp. One should play aggressive with Bisharp. It can beat most Focus Blast users with correct prediction and Sucker Punch if you switch in at the right time.
-Defiant. A smaller pro, but definitely wins games. People tend to forget about defiant, and carelessly send in Landorus-T or Gyarados, only for you to get an attack boost.

To end my plea, I don't say Bisharp deserves A-rank. I merely say it should be in C, not in D. Some games, it does nothing for your team, but sometimes, it wins you the game.

 

[vyomov]

I'd disagree with the motion to put bisharp in C. Bisharp is REALLY weak to priority(Mach Punch) and becomes set up fodder for mons like SubCM Latias who can set up a substitute on Sucker Punch and proceed to CM while Bisharp fails repeatedly. The issue with Bisharp is that Sucker Punch is easily predicted and taken advantage of while any other Dark-type STAB like Night Slash is of no use because Bisharp is too slow.
Worse, most OU Dragons can take care of Bisharp with coverage easily: Salamence OHKOes with Fire Blast, as does Garchomp with Earthquake. Kyurem gets around it with Earth Power while Latias and Latios OHKO with HP Fire.

The tipping point is that the 3 most dangerous mons in OU - Keldeo, Landorus and Scizor all hands down beat Bisharp.
So no, Bisharp should stay D-Rank. Tyranitar does a much better job as a defensive Dark-type and as an offensive one as well.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

I'd disagree with the motion to put bisharp in C. Bisharp is REALLY weak to priority(Mach Punch) and becomes set up fodder for mons like SubCM Latias who can set up a substitute on Sucker Punch and proceed to CM while Bisharp fails repeatedly. The issue with Bisharp is that Sucker Punch is easily predicted and taken advantage of while any other Dark-type STAB like Night Slash is of no use because Bisharp is too slow.
Worse, most OU Dragons can take care of Bisharp with coverage easily: Salamence OHKOes with Fire Blast, as does Garchomp with Earthquake. Kyurem gets around it with Earth Power while Latias and Latios OHKO with HP Fire.

The tipping point is that the 3 most dangerous mons in OU - Keldeo, Landorus and Scizor all hands down beat Bisharp.
So no, Bisharp should stay D-Rank. Tyranitar does a much better job as a defensive Dark-type and as an offensive one as well.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 302-356 (88.04 - 103.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 398-468 (124.76 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 378-446 (105.58 - 124.58%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 437-515 (132.02 - 155.58%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 138-162 (42.2 - 49.54%) -- 35.55% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I could go on. The point is once it gets a swords dance boost you NEED something with good bulk, resistance to dark and the power to ohko bisharp or a breloom in order to stop it. Bisharp resists every single priority in ou bar mach punch so i dont see how is it EXTREMELY weak to priority. Also lol at latios and latias checking bisharp. Latios is outright ohkoed by sucker punch while sub calm latias is koed by either night slash or iron head depending of your choice for the fourth slot.

 

[vyomov]

Latios is outright ohkoed by sucker punch while sub calm latias is koed by either night slash or iron head depending of your choice for the fourth slot.

Player X returned Latios and sent out Breloom/any fighting type
Bisharp used Sucker Punch... it failed!
Bisharp returned...
Fighting type set up!

If Bisharp isn't using Sucker Punch, Latias can simply click HP Fire and out.

Also, that's at +2: how often does Bisharp actually get the chance to get to +2? Even if Bisharp tries to set up(which can be predicted), any mon can hide behind a Substitute and troll Bisharp. The issue is that either Bisharp sets up and gets trolled by the Substitute or it uses sucker punch and is trolled by the sub.
Honestly, Bisharp is set up bait for SO many mons who can click Substitute, set up a Sub and kill Bisharp.

Some of the calcs given are meaningless because Bisharp never actually sets up on Garchomp or Salamence because both can outspeed and OHKO.

What you are claiming is essentially that IF Bisharp switches in and isn't OHKOed and IF Bisharp can set up to +2 without being OHKOed and IF Bisharp can use Sucker Punch correctly THEN it can beat some mons in OU. Meaning that:
a) Any mon that sets a substitute during set up or during Sucker Punch and carries Fire, Fighting or Ground Coverage can beat Bisharp
b) Any mon that outspeeds and 2HKOes Bisharp beats it because of the free-turn of switch in followed by the Swords Dance
c) Any mon carrying Spore or Will'o'wisp can beat Bisharp simply by burning it and stalling it out

Just to give you an idea of Bisharp's frailness:
252 SpA Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 186-219 (55.68 - 65.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This means that even with full HP investment(which makes Bisharp either VERY slow or lacking in attack) Bisharp cannot switch into Jolteon.

Heavy reliance on Sucker Punch, bad Special defense and bad speed is what in my opinion keeps Bisharp D-Rank - it needs an SD to actually pose a threat but is OHKOed by most common threats like below:
252+ SpA Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp in rain: 337-397 (118.66 - 139.78%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Superpower vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 749-884 (263.73 - 311.26%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Earth Power vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 312-369 (109.85 - 129.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Jirachi Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 244-289 (90.03 - 106.64%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The list can go on and on, but the point is that Bisharp is too frail and easily beaten by prediction to be a good sweeper in OU.

 

[PK Gaming]

Note: !! At this point all the comments are kicking a dead horse and repeating things said about thirdy times already. Vaporeon doesn't deserve B rank based on my experience and the players I spectated. But if you feel that it should stay C rank for whatever reason. So be it. I don't really care anymore. This ou ranking is already so flawed. The only relevant rank I agree with is A+ and S anyway. I'm not coming back to this meaningless thread that even OU top players don't even visit. I'm done.

What is the appropriate action to take in response to a user who continues to post despite claiming that they're going to leave? You've had your opinion countered by a dozens of players who are far better than you are, and have a accurate idea of the game balance state at the moment. I won't be tolerating your arrogance or colossal Vaporeon fanboyism any longer. In other words, I want you to get the hell out of my thread and if I catch you posting here again I'll infract you.

I'm seriously considering adding blacklist system to this thread.

 

[Professor Birch]

I was looking through this list, and I saw Bisharp in D! I've been using him on my recent team, and I can say he deserves better than D-rank. I'd say he's at least C-rank. Bisharp has several niches that it can execute well if you play well with it. It's biggest drawback is that it is heavily reliant on prediction, but a good player can use Bisharp to its fullest extent. Bisharp's pros:

-Steel typing with excellent defenses. Can take several Outrages before defeating the opposing dragon with....
-STAB Sucker Punch. After a Swords Dance, Sucker Punch KO's everything in the tier that attacks it and doesn't resist it. Again, pretty prediction-reliant, but very powerful.
-Two immunities. These are key to setting up a Bisharp sweep. Alakazam threathening your Keldeo? Switch in Bisharp. One should play aggressive with Bisharp. It can beat most Focus Blast users with correct prediction and Sucker Punch if you switch in at the right time.
-Defiant. A smaller pro, but definitely wins games. People tend to forget about defiant, and carelessly send in Landorus-T or Gyarados, only for you to get an attack boost.

To end my plea, I don't say Bisharp deserves A-rank. I merely say it should be in C, not in D. Some games, it does nothing for your team, but sometimes, it wins you the game.

I actually completely agree with this. I feel that Bisharp is really not getting the use it deserves. Bisharp seems exactly where the C Rank description came from. The person that was saying he doesnt deserve it because he is beaten by S Rank pokemon and can not take a Mach Punch. Exactly, that is why he belongs in C. No shit it will lose to S Rank mons, that is why they are S Rank. Also, Mach Punch weak would count as a crippling flaw. Let us say you partner it with Gengar or something. Bisharp does great in a situation like this. You have Bisharp and your opponent sends out Breloom, you switch to Gengar and then they switch to Latios. Then Latios will try to kill you and Bisharp can come in and get the free Swords Dance. Also, not being Stealth Rock weak and being Steel type is always a good thing.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

But these Pokemon should really be staples. Zapdos is a stall staple due to its ability to reliably beat Landorus. Amoonguss is again a really great pokemon due to its ability to counter Keldeo and its access to Spore AND Regenerator (amazing). I don't think Pokemon should be lowered because they are rarely seen, as this is a viability thread. Zapdos and Amoonguss are very viable Pokemon. That being said, I think C Rank could do with a cleanup. Lots of these pokemon aren't really viable at all, they just have a very slim niche.

252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 221-260 (59.89 - 70.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (subroost, and watch out for earth power while you roost)
252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 221-260 (68.63 - 80.74%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (offensive lo)

Zapdos doesn't beat landorus reliably.

Zapdos might as well go down to B-, it never really worked for me, I've tried the offensive LO set and it's just too slow and prone to being revenge killed.

I also agree with Donphan for D-tier. I'd rather use forry/hitmontop on sun teams

 

[MikeDawg]

252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 221-260 (59.89 - 70.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (subroost, and watch out for earth power while you roost)
252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 221-260 (68.63 - 80.74%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (offensive lo)

Zapdos doesn't beat landorus reliably.

Zapdos might as well go down to B-, it never really worked for me, I've tried the offensive LO set and it's just too slow and prone to being revenge killed.

What are you doing bro

252HP/220SpD

But even so, if rocks are up, spdef zapdos struggles as well.

I feel as if multiple checks (rotom-w, latias, jelli, etc) are better to try to deal with it (AND many other threats simultaneously) than trying to pack a hard counter (really, there are none)

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

I actually did the calcs on the old subroost set... sorry

252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Zapdos: 161-190 (42.03 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

but then spdef Zapdos is outsped and 2HKOed by hp ice after SR

 

[Gary]

What is the appropriate action to take in response to a user who continues to post despite claiming that they're going to leave? You've had your opinion countered by a dozens of players who are far better than you are, and have a accurate idea of the game balance state at the moment. I won't be tolerating your arrogance or colossal Vaporeon fanboyism any longer. In other words, I want you to get the hell out of my thread and if I catch you posting here again I'll infract you.

I'm seriously considering adding blacklist system to this thread.

Please....please do this. I will get on my knees and beg. I'm really hating to see this wonderful thread slowly becoming tarnished by people who are only bumping Pokemon because they just like the Pokemon. If that was the case, I would nominate Sceptile to S-rank.

Anyways jokes aside, I feel that this thread needs a become a bit more strict and less lenient on ignorant posts. This thread is obviously meant for high quality discussion amongst players that know what they hell they're talking about, so we can try to discuss exactly how good certain Pokemon are fairing in this current metagame. The thing that really pisses me off is why some people seem to care so much about moving Pokemon up or down a certain rank. I remember a long time ago when there was a huge argument that broke out when someone wanted to move Amoonguss down to C-rank. For some reason, a huge fight broke out, both sides refusing to give up and some even becoming almost hostile. That was just so ridiculous to me, and that's when I realized that this thread was starting to tumble into a downward spiral. This recent Vaporeon argument was ridiculous, and it pains me to see someone insult everyone on this thread just because they can't except the fact that they're wrong. This is the problem. No one can except the fact that they are wrong. Everyone is so hostile towards each other, and it pisses me of to see people fight over a game. People are acting rude, selfish, and ignorant.

Why is it that the other viability ranking threads seem to not have this big of a problem? If someone argues against something, but is later corrected, they apologize for being wrong. But here, if they're wrong, they don't give a shit. They beat the living crap out of the topic until they get what they want. That is why this thread is failing. If we want this thread to become what it used to be, it needs more Mod involvement.

That is all. Grow up people, or get off this thread. You know who you are. I'd hate to see my favorite thread die because of immaturity.

 

[Soul Fly]

I'm seriously considering adding blacklist system to this thread.

I shall be willing to provide you oral pleasure if you do that.

And I agree with everything Mr. Gary<numbers> said. Keep your fanboyism in-game please. This is meant to be a cruel objective view of the current OU meta.

 

[Kidogo]

I mentioned this a while ago, but something everyone really needs to be aware of is that there is a tendency to move mons upwards--if you like a mon, or use it on your current team, you may see more potential in it. People like moving mons that they believe are criminally underrated up a few tiers, etc. Just be aware of this tendency, and remember--on average, there should not be much of a net shift up or down, so if we've had five mons in a row move up a tier and a half, something may be up.

Related to this, bisharp discussion. Honestly just ask yourself this question. When are you really going to choose bisharp for a comptitive OU team? Remember, this is the OU viability thread--not the "can this pokemon be made to work in OU" thread. Bisharp is horribly frail, slow, and basically is a one-trick pony with sucker punch, which is ridiculously easy to abuse given how slow and frail it is. Any sub user will beat it 9/10 times, it needs an SD before it can KO anything not weak to sucker punch, it is straight-out OHKOed by the most common priority in OU and is 4x weak to one of the most common attacking types and 2x weak to another. It does have a cool steel typing, which sorta lets it set up once in a while, but honestly, when are you going to use bisharp instead of, say, lucario? Or, if pursuit is the main thing, ttar? Or if you don't like lati@s, even weavile? This thing is D-tier, seriously.

Donphan actually could be worthy of C-tier imo. One thing it has over other rapid spinners (except hitmon) is odor sleuth, which does the same thing as foresight in allowing it to spin on ghosts. This means it actually fares awesomely vs common hazard-spamming leads, including custap skarm + gar. If I bring skarm down to sturdy with tales as he SRs, then go to donphan on the spikes, I can odor sleuth the gar switch-in and spin for free. This is a significant advantage it has > forry, who it is often competing with for a teamslot. Also, ground is not a horrible defensive typing at all for a physical wall--look at hippowdon (who is in A+), one of the premier defensive walls in the tier! I'd say donphan should stick in C.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

I'd like to nominate Liepard for D-rank. I've used it recently and trolled many people with it. Here's the set I used:

Liepard (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Swagger
- Thunder Wave
- Foul Play
- Substitute

With this EV spread Liepard will always survive a Mach Punch from LO breloom. Of course trolling is the only niche liepard has. If you're really bored, use Liepard and start trolling. Of course you have to rely on luck, but if you are lucky liepard can even 6-0 teams.

Basically use swagger on the first turn and see if your opponent hits itself in confusion. Even if not, if it's a support pokemon it'll probably be trying to set up on your liepard. If it's a support Pokemon use Substitute next turn and then spam foul play, possibly swagger if has insane physical bulk or snaps out of confusion. If it's an offensive pokemon, use Thunder Wave and then spam Foul Play, regardless if your opponent's confusion wears off.

 

[Punchshroom]

It's just that Donphan is not a physical wall like Hippowdon who has Slack Off. I'd like to think of Donphan as physical tank of a Rapid Spinner who has an interesting movepool in EQ, Odor Sleuth, Rapid Spin, Stealth Rock, Ice Shard, Seed Bomb, Head Smash, Roar, Counter and Assurance but suffers massive 4MSS as a result., since EQ and Spin are givens.

Edit: Oh nonono, don't let me catch you trying a T-Wave Liepard without at least giving Encore a shot first. T-Wave can slow down fast threats (but is useless against Lando and Thundurus-T), but Encore can actually buy the free turn Liepard needs to get its Substitute up (and stay up). The difference between Liepard and Whimsicott in terms of Prankster Encore users is that Liepard actually has offensive presence in Swagger + Foul Play or Nasty Plot + Dark Pulse. With that said, mono-Dark coverage isn't spectacular in OU, and am hesitant as to even include Liepard in the Rankings considering that Prankster Encore with the ability to fight back is its only niche. The above set is not at all recommended as it is purely reliant on luck which isn't optimal, seeing as Liepard risks a 75% (T-Wave) or 50% (Swagger) chance of death turn 1.

 

[Manectrifier]

First of all to make this clear, I didn't mention Bisharp because it's my favorite pokemon. It isn't that I want to see it move up just for the sake of moving something up. And yes, I agree with all your arguments. I'm not gonna deny them all like what happened in the Vaporeon discussion. This is a discussion thread, where we try to convince each other of our statement. If at the end most people agree about it: fine, I won't get mad when Bisharp doesn't get moved up. Really, not all people argue untill they are almost getting banned from this thread.

So, on to Bisharp. In reply to someone who asked when you are going to use Bisharp in OU: I personally needed an offensive check to especially Lati@s, but also other dragons and psychic types. Bisharp checks them nicely and threatens them with Sucker Punch. It works better than Weavile here as it resists SR and takes outrages nicely. In fact, having a Bisharp on your team completely stops the opponent from using outrage at all. When they do, Bisharp comes in, sets up a SD and KO's.

Secondly, Bisharp shouldn't really be facing for example a Terrakion at the start of a turn without a sub. Prediction is key: One should try to hit the Terrakion with Iron head or Low kick on the switch, or set up a sub. And, Bisharp does not always lose against sub users either. He can play mind games with them and constantly break their sub with Iron Head/Low Kick. People often do not want to attack a Bisharp in fear of a Sucker Punch. You should take advantage of that and attack them with for example Iron Head.

Lastly, Bisharp should be used near the end of the game. A burned Scizor or a trick scarfed Ferro are way easier to set up on than a healthy Dragonite, for example. However, this goes for every poke, it's just that this is very important when using Bisharp.

To conclude, I definitely think Bisharp is hard to play with. There is often a way around his Sucker Punch, which is his main weapon. I do, however, think that Bisharp is good enough for C-rank, as if you predict well with it, it can be very rewarding.

Also, it is as least as good as for example Durant and Moltres, right?

 

[Chou Toshio]

^Moltres is actually pretty damn legit; I do think I'd rather use Bisharp than Crobat or Crustle though...

In general, the C-Rank could do with some restructuring. While there is a clear break between B and C, within C there is a mess. Pokemon like Slowbro, Donphan, Smeargle, and Cresselia put in the same boat as Crobat and Scrafty. We probably need a + / neutral / - break.

By the way, I personally think the break between B+ and B is bigger than the break between B (general) and C (general)

 

[Meru]

I agree with the above post. There's a lot of things in C-rank that I've never seen used in any competitive BW2 team. These pokemon are Crobat, Empoleon, Rotom-H, Staraptor, and Togekiss. To say they have the same strength of a niche as Moltres (why did someone say this is bad?), Slowbro, or Sharpedo is insulting, although Slowbro and Sharpedo are probably prime candidates for promotion to B-

 

[Magcargo]

K, here's a list of pokemon I think should go down to D-Tier

Hide

Crobat
Crustle
Donphan
Durant
Nidoqueen
Scrafty
Shaymin
Smeargle
Snorlax
Togekiss
Vaporeon

There are a few pokemon I missed, but all of these pokemon seem to fit the definition of D-Tier IMO.

 

[PDC]

Bisharp is good enough for C Rank. I know this may seem strange, but it is actually a very good Pokemon. Something definitely interesting. I have found it very useful on Rain teams and how it absolutely destroys those bulky Landorus-T if it gets a Swords Dance prior. With Defiant on its side Intimidate can only help it. A +3 Jolly Life Orb Iron Head does 95.39 - 112.46% to standard 200 HP 244 Def Landorus-T on average, of course that's assuming that he Swords Danced prior. But even then, a +1 Life Orb Iron Head on the switch does 57.18 - 67.75%, a clean 2HKO. This leaves Bisharp at a very favorable position, and I find it is definitely a very strong threat.

I really do like Bisharp, it is something that is definitely unique in the metagame and does have some redeeming qualities. Although it may not be very bulky and be completely walled to death for the most part by Keldeo, it can still function well in the metagame. Bisharp does have a pretty cool niche, and I believe it does belong in the C Rank.

 

[RabidChipmunk]

Bisharp is good enough for C Rank. I know this may seem strange, but it is actually a very good Pokemon. Something definitely interesting. I have found it very useful on Rain teams and how it absolutely destroys those bulky Landorus-T if it gets a Swords Dance prior. With Defiant on its side Intimidate can only help it. A +3 Jolly Life Orb Iron Head does 95.39 - 112.46% to standard 200 HP 244 Def Landorus-T on average, of course that's assuming that he Swords Danced prior. But even then, a +1 Life Orb Iron Head on the switch does 57.18 - 67.75%, a clean 2HKO. This leaves Bisharp at a very favorable position, and I find it is definitely a very strong threat.

I really do like Bisharp, it is something that is definitely unique in the metagame and does have some redeeming qualities. Although it may not be very bulky and be completely walled to death for the most part by Keldeo, it can still function well in the metagame. Bisharp does have a pretty cool niche, and I believe it does belong in the C Rank.

Just one question: why would you run Jolly Bisharp? He's slow as hell anyway, and the extra speed isn't too important since most of your work is coming from priority. Unless you were just giving an example, I wouldn't see why you wouldn't just use Adamant.

 

[Magcargo]

Nominating skarmory for top A-Rank
While the defensive set is mid A-tier worthy, I think that skarmory's lead set is enough to warrant a spot in high A-rank or even low S-rank. Skarmory is the fastest pokemon with sturdy to get both forms of entry hazards and taunt. Thanks to sturdy, skarmory is guaranteed to setup at least two layers of hazards, as long as the foe doesn't have a magic bounce, or priority user. Thanks to taunt, slow walls like ferrothorn and setup sweepers like breloom cannot setup on it as it is setting up hazards.
While rapid spin users and magic bounce users like espeon and starmie spell trouble for skarmory, Skarmory's main offensive partner, gengar, can beat all of the spinners/magic bounce users if it is wielding a choice scarf and switches into the correct move.
The hazards the skarmory provide are extremely useful for hyper offensive teams since offensive teams generally force a ton of switches and the hazards skarmory provides punishes switching.
While not as good as deoxys-d, skarmory isn't very far from it in terms of providing hazards and High A-Rank/Low S-Rank would be a decent position for it.

 

[MikeDawg]

Looking through the rankings, there are a few pokes that I find out of place.

If you argue against any of the move and I don't respond, my response would have probably been "I'm nominating it from A+ to A... not A+ to D," and I trust PK to properly judge any minor changes of this sort

Thundurus-T => A Rank or A- Rank

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While thundurus-t is certainly a threat, it struggles in this meta. The double dance set struggles against any who resist thunder (ferro, mamoswine, etc.) while the agility set has issues with special walls and the nasty plot set finds itself far too slow to sweep. Scarfing it isn't too good an idea as a ground switchin is huge momentum loss. It's frailty holds it back some and it fares rather poorly against offense. Even the agility set has a lot of trouble setting up. It is not a bad pokemon by any means, but it simply isn't not as top tier as originally perceived.

Garchomp => A Rank

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Without dragon dance, garchomp is the "slow" dragon. With slow of course being relative to the rest of the offensive metagame, but slow nonetheless. As such, it has trouble sweeping due to the fact that so many things can come in and outspeed and ko it (keldeo, terrakion, latias, starmie, latios... pretty much everything faster than it). Not to mention it is weak to the somewhat common ice shard. However, that isn't to say garchomp isn't fearsome. Keep in mind this is a nomination for it to be moved down a single notch. With a yache berry, keldeo and the like, which the opponent may have preserved simply to keep chomp at bay, it can survive hp ice and ko in return. Scarf sets are viable, but scarf outrage is not the best thing to be locked into, and earthquake is so easily abusable. Maybe when keldeo is gone things will be different for chomp, but as is sweepers have a very difficult time when they don't meet the 108 speed threashold (and even then they do), so I feel as if it isn't a tippy-top tier threat.

Tentacruel => (tentative)A- Rank

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This one I wasn't too too sure about, but after consideration on both sides I feel is proper. Tentacruel is a great spinner and a very nice wall, serving as a nice keldeo counter amongst other things. However, there are a couple of things holding it back: fitting it on a team and the top threats. First of all, tenta should be run on a rain team, otherwise it is likely outclassed. This means that between politoed and tentacruel, you already have two electric weaknesses. Add on keldeo and you are sitting at three. Tornadus (which appreciates spin support) adds another, etc. In essense, tentacruel is great at amplifying already prevelant weaknesses, which is not good for a defensive poke, while offensive ones could someone get away with it. Besides this though, the amount of pokes who can deal with it is unfortunately large. Arguably 22 pokemon just in the S and A ranks can either outspeed and 1hko tentacruel, or can wall it without fear while also being able to react in some capacity. Of course, this number decreases if tenta is behind a sub, but let's keep in mind that those 22 are just comprised of A and S rank. Changing the weather as well is extremely detrimental to tentacruel's abilities. So yeah :P Still a great pokemon, but A- seems to fit. (especially if keldeo leaves)

Gyarados => A Rank

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See above posts

Dugtrio => B Rank (tentative) B- Rank

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Dugtrio is a mixed bag... it's an awful pokemon with great utility. It works very well on sun teams to eliminate ttar, but it can't do the same for the equally threatening politoed. On a rain team it can do away with ttar and ninetales, but politoed doesn't exactly struggle against these two itself, plus rain teams are rather strapped for space. It's also embarrasing when your dugtrio loses to jirachi. Any form of hazard ruins sash dugtrio. It has a rather large potential to be complete deadweight against the opposing team.

Tornadus => A Rank

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See above posts

Magnezone => B+ Rank

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Magnezone is really the only pokemon who can eliminate defensive steel types so consistently, opening the way for MANY offensive behemoths. Besides this though, it is crazy powerful. Specs magnezone is ridiculous against anything that doesn't 1hko it (which is quite difficult to do with large hp investment and that typing). Resisting bolt beam is great. The real gem, though, is analytic magnezone. While it is unreliable (not really... da ladder), showdown mechanics make it so even without magnet pull the opponent seems to be trapped unless they try and switch out, which most people don't bother doing. Alongside this, though, you get absurd power. It 1hkos spdef jellicent with tbolt, does around 70% to spdef rachi, 1hkos Garchomp, 1hkos +2 Spdef Terrakion, etc. Analytic magnezone was central to the team that I used to make both reqs (with no lando or keldeo or ttar, might I add!), even when the opponent did realize it did not have magnet pull. B+ rank is certainly nothing too generous considering its very valuable niche and general abilities as a pokemon even without said niche. /unlike dugtrio and gothitelle

Ditto => B- Rank

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Okay, ditto has a niche like no other. But who actually uses setup sweepers anymore? Especially with things like lando and the like running around where setup is unnecesary. And if you switch a ditto into a scarf keldeo, you have a scarf keldeo with less health. He's fun I suppose and he could be a great utility (in fact, he could be ANY UTILITY WOAHHHH) but he's too unreliable and such.

It's getting late and these are getting weird, I'll stop here I suppose :P