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Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking

I dunno, maybe because Ttar or scizor could still come in and fuck it super badly with little way to stop it? Because it can't phaze or taunt, and a bunch of Pokemon can easily set up on it?

Does sound like it could be a real nuisance though.
 
Chou Toshio said:
I dunno, maybe because Ttar or scizor could still come in and fuck it super badly with little way to stop it? Because it can't phaze or taunt, and a bunch of Pokemon can easily set up on it?

Does sound like it could be a real nuisance though.
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Well it would mostly find its niche on sun teams more than anything else, and sun teams don't really have a problem with Scizor anyway. T-tar is a problem though, and it is true that Cresselia has no way to phaze or to keep the likes of Ferrothorn, Skarmory and Forretress from setting up on it. It would make Cresselia a LOT more useful though on sun teams than just an indestructible wall. I'm not insinuating that it would make Cresselia OU or anything, I was just saying that there would be more of a reason to use it if it got Heal bell.
 
Gary2346 said:
What if Cresselia got Heal Bell?

To tell you the truth, I think this is all Cresselia needs to become a good OU Pokemon, at least on sun teams. Outside of her shitty offensive presence, Heal Bell would make Cresselia one of the hardest things to kill in OU, especially in sun (It would be immortal). Although it faces stiff competition from Celebi, Cresselia is a LOT bulkier, and it's only weak to Bug, Dark, and Ghost, the latter really only seen on Gengar anyway (which Cresselia could actually beat with Psychic). Other than Cresselia's lack of offensive capabilities, Cresselia is completely stopped cold by Toxic. With Heal Bell, Cresselia can no longer be stalled out with Toxic, and it will force the opponent to have to wear it down by attacking. Although Cresselia would still lack a reliable healing move outside of Moonlight, Heal Bell would greatly increase its usage on both offensive and stall sun teams. Outside of sun, Cresselia is a lot easier to wear down, but at the same time her utility would make up for it. I feel that giving Cresselia Heal Bell would make her a staple on most sun teams, and it would give her more of a reason to use her in general. Seriously though, why wouldn't you use Heal Bell Cresselia on a sun team? It would be impossible to KO, and it would provide a ton of support for offensive sun teams that can't afford their Chlorophyll sweeper being paralyzed or their Ninetales crippled by Toxic.
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The issues lies in Cresselia's ability to force out attackers. Sure it can tank a good amount of Pokes, but against many others you have very little to force them out. This gives them many apt opportunities to switch in and get off free hazards or stat boosts, and this is the reason why Cresselia is used so little on teams.

It may come to a point where Cresselia's ability to stall may become a downfall to the team. For example Lucario gets an easy switch in and can secure a +2 with no worry, CBzor only fears HP fire but otherwise gets a free U-turn in, SubCM Rachi will have a hayday of set-ups, and TTar/Toed will have absolutely no fear coming in to change the weather.

I do get your point though, and it would definitely be good for Cress to prevent itself from being Toxic stalled. However, that strategy is not as common as you'd expect, and more often than not you'll just be worn down by damage from attacks. Meanwhile, Cress doesn't provide enough pressure on the opponent as other Pokes would, and as such your opponent will just switch to another Poke who scares Cress or they could just threaten to set-up. It's a good idea and a nice niche, but other doesn't fix any of Cress' other big weaknesses.

Huskisson906 said:
You could run HP fire on it after all it will be used on sun teams. As for TTar. Take it out early.
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As much as HP fire would help you on some match ups, there's still a multitude of Pokes that can come in fearing very little. Also, the attack itself is very weak, and still allows Pokes like Rachi to set-up (Rachi doesn't even fear SE hits after a lot of CMs).

As for TTar, do you really think it's worth it investing a lot of counters for TTar just so you prevent Cress from being toxic stalled? As much as it's easy to write "Take it out early", in practice it's not really so. It's also a very bad concept if you have to kill a Poke before your TANK can even come in.
 
^I agree that status is not Cresselia's biggest problem as a wall. In fact, I don't ever remember relying on Toxic Stalling or full paralysis to beat Cresselia. Moreover, I'm not really convinced that status is a big problem for Sun teams. Venusaur is immune to Toxic and can Sleep any foes that try to status it. Generally speaking, players aren't going to leave Venusaur in on a T-Wave user if they don't think Venusaur can OHKO. You wouldn't want to leave Venusaur in on something like Jirachi or Celebi if you didn't think you were in position to one shot it for instance. Likewise, you're not going to try to set up Volcarona on something with T-Wave or Toxic (unless you have Lum, Sub, or Chesto-Rest). Status can be an issue for sun teams, but Hazards (especially Rocks) is a much bigger one, as is enemy weather. Considering how many team slots Sun already invests in winning the hazard/weather wars, I don't think they have much room for something that just sets up heal bell. Besides, Cresselia already has Healing Wish, which deals with status and helps it do its role on sun teams better-- blocking key threats at the start yes, but then helping with the Sun Team's ultimate goal of setting up Chlorophyll user or Fire-type Sweeper to sweep.

Besides, Cress alreaedy has massive 4 move syndrom.

Morning Sun is part of the whole reason to use it in Sun. It needs HP Fire to get rid of Scizor, which otherwise makes it a liability. Ice Beam is needed if it wants to deal with Dragons / Ground types, but it wants Psychic to help it against Gengar and Fighting types. Without Reflect it's utterly screwed by TTar, but without Status (Toxic or T-Wave) it is just incredibly non-threatening in general. Now we're going to add the ALSO non-threatening Heal Bell?

Hmmm... I'm skeptical. But then, I've never used a sun team, so I could definitely be missing the point.
 
I don't know if this has been already asked.. but
What if we had a pokemon that could automatically set up trick room?
In my opinion, I think this really would change the meta, because things like Rampardos and Escavalier would become top tier threats. Also, another problem would be that the only other way you can cancel the trick room is if you had a Pokemon that could set up trick room, so that the dimensions could become normal. Teams would have to start running trick room just to cancel the effect, or else they would get smashed by Rampardos and such. Essentially you have to knock out the trick room setting pokemon and then put the dimensions back to normal, and since most trick room setters are psychic, pokemon such as slowbro or slowking could be really hard to deal with.
 
Joshers said:
I don't know if this has been already asked.. but
What if we had a pokemon that could automatically set up trick room?
In my opinion, I think this really would change the meta, because things like Rampardos and Escavalier would become top tier threats. Also, another problem would be that the only other way you can cancel the trick room is if you had a Pokemon that could set up trick room, so that the dimensions could become normal. Teams would have to start running trick room just to cancel the effect, or else they would get smashed by Rampardos and such. Essentially you have to knock out the trick room setting pokemon and then put the dimensions back to normal, and since most trick room setters are psychic, pokemon such as slowbro or slowking could be really hard to deal with.
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If this happened, I would just flat out quit playing Pokemon. It would be so broken, to the point of the Ubers metagame possibly being ruined by it. Too many things would become good. CB Aggron would be everywhere, Rampardos, Escavalier, Conkeldurr, Medicham, Victini and its V-Create shenanigans, Heatran, Breloom, Druddigon, Machamp, Swampert, Rhyperior, the list goes on and on. It would ruin the metagame.
 
I think a condition like Trick Room is much too far-reaching for such a dramatic Ability. Personally, I think it would be banned shortly after release. It's too powerful.
 
What if Drought, Drizzle, Sandstream, and Snow Warning lasted for 5 turns (8 with the right items) after the pokemon with said trait is no longer on the battlefield?

To me, the permanent presence of weather conditions that originate from a pokemon's trait is what makes them so effective. Sure you can kill the Politoed or Tyranitar, but you can't kill that Rain or Sand as easily. If those traits acted more like their respective moves, however, that opens up for opportunities for team-building, particularly for stall teams whose goal would be to wait out the storm [pun intended].
 
I really would not mind it at all, from a defensive perspective most trick room sweepers aren't that great, although perhaps some forces like thick-club marowak might become OU again which may be annoying, overall though I think it would be manageable.

I am more interested in a permanent Wonder Room though, physically Defensive Chansey, sign me up.
 
Joshers said:
What if we had a pokemon that could automatically set up trick room?
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One thing should be noted about Trick Room in that is only affects Speed. Unlike weather, it doesn't affect damage, accuracy checks, or triggers abilities, but only towards the Speed stat. However, Speed manipulation is definitely the stronger effect, moreso than anything that weather can bring. In most scenarios, Speed is the difference between killed or be killed (to be a check or not), and it affects EVERY single Pokemon. Weather on the other hand primarily affects damage dealt or damage taken, and so it's only the difference between hitting hard or hitting for normal. We've seen a lot of hate towards Speed in the past, the big one being the banning of Swift Swim on Drizzle teams. Pokemon had a lot of power with Rain up, but their strengths were further secured with the Speed manipulation that Swift Swim gave them.

That's where we see the strength in an immediate Trick Room, it creates Speed advantages and awkward disadvantages. Suddenly, checks lose their ability to actually "check", fragile sweepers lose their sweeping potential, and many bulky hitters become not only tanky and hard-hitting, but fast as well. Speed investment becomes questionable in teambuilding, and if anything the entire metagame would begin to revolve around bulky hitters to accommodate the unreliability of hitting first (just take a look at the VGC). As for sweepers you'd have Pokes that can utilize TR or can take some punishment without it, and maybe priority sweepers will see a rise as they reliably bypass Speed checks.

TR is also very easy to abuse. -Spe Nature, 0Spe IVs, 0Spe EVs (which means more investment in tankiness), this means that entire teams can utilize it (as opposed to weather with only a few abusers), and your opponent is at an immediate disadvantage if they have any Pokes with Spe investments since they're squishier and now slower. Even if it lasted a few turns, the fact that you save a turn for setting it up means you have no problem getting TR back up.

In another completely different wording, imagine this. A Pokemon has an ability which, when entering battle, paralyzes ALL of your opponents Pokemon with a respectably high Spe stat, while ignoring any form of parahax. This is almost exactly what TR does; it cripples a lot of fragile sweepers who rely on their Speed to avoid damage. Automatic TR becomes very scary knowing this, as just by bringing it up means that many Pokes are reliably kept in check. Weather can barely do this and if it does it only cripples a select few.

In lieu, automatic TR is immensely powerful and easily abused. Essentially game-changing and even ban-worthy.

Sorry if I went a bit off topic. To be completely honest, this actually sounded much better in my head -.-
 
I do think that a TR setter wouldn't be too broken if it only lasted 5 turns like the move itself, but it would most likely follow the pattern of auto weather by lasting for the entire match, which just seems t a bit too absurd. The scary thing about the common TR sweepers such as Aggron, Escavalier, and Reuniclus, is that most of them are rather bulky, and are pretty hard to KO in 1-2 turns. Reuniclus is probably one of the worst out there, because the only way to stop it is to attack it, and you can't wear it down with Toxic. Aggron has a monstrous 396 Defense uninvested, and a 344 HP when fully invested, with Rock Head to prevent recoil from Head Smash and an extremely powerful Heavy Slam. Marowak is pretty bulky as well, and after one SD boost, its attack reaches like over 1000 or something crazy like that. I'm sorry, but to anyone who says that a permanent TR ability wouldn't be broken, you're just plain silly. It would be so broken. Remember that everything in TR is very fast and bulky, because instead of investing in speed they'll be investing in bulk.
 
I agree that a permanent-TR is broken, but a 5-turn TR makes perfect sense.
One interesting thing to note is that with a TR-inducing ability, as a result of TR, Scarfers will be seen far less in the meta.
An interesting strategy that might be seen on TR Stall is Trick + Salac Berry.
 
Here's an interesting question to think about: If a five turn automatic TR ability was released, who do you think GameFreak would give it to?

Although it's only five turns, this would still be an extremely dangerous ability, because every time the Pokemon enters the field TR is automatically in play. This is important, because now it doesn't have to worry about spending an entire turn just to setup. Because the ability itself is a very dangerous one, it would probably be given to a lackluster Pokemon. GF knew that Drizzle and Drought would be extremely powerful play styles in competitive play, so they decided to give two shitty Pokemon (Politoed and Ninetales) these abilities so that they wouldn't be deemed too powerful for competitive play outside of Ubers. So, what would be some shitty Psychic-type Pokemon that could receive this ability and not be broken with it? I was thinking Chimecho and Chingling. Both of these Pokemon are pretty lackluster, there stats aren't that great either, and they're pure mono Psychic-type, making there defensive typing rather shitty. Like Politoed and Ninetales, Chimecho would bring to OU an extremely potent play style, but Chimecho is such a bad Pokemon that it wouldn't make the ability itself broken. Keeping Chimecho alive would be a chore, and it would probably be even harder to sustain TR with Chimecho that the ability itself would that much less broken. Chingling on the other hand, would probably be broken in LC. With Eviolite, it's decently bulky, and it has a great supporting movepool. LC has threats like Aron and Clamperl to abuse TR down there, and we all know how scary Clamperl is. It would still be a rather underwhelming Psychic-type, but Chingling would actually be a bit more broken with the ability in the lower tiers than Chimecho would in OU for example.

That's just my idea.
 
I understand this is a theorymon thread, but this non-permanent weather shit isn't even viable to be discussed because there isn't a single ability that GameFreak has made where the effect stops after a certain amount of time. Some abilities have to get triggered to eb put to use, but there isn't a turn limit to any of them and that's why I cannot see something like a rain, sun, hail, or sand based ability not being permanent. I would see a permanent trick room ability happening before that, and even that I am very skeptical of.

What if pokemon like Swampert and Gastrodon got Sap Sipper?

Their only weakness, a big 4 times weakness at that, is to grass so this would make them become a whole lot bulkier. This would help Swampert more since he would also gain a boost to his already powerful EQ's and Waterfalls, but Gastro becomes damn near unkillable since it has reliable recovery.
 
G-Von said:
I understand this is a theorymon thread, but this non-permanent weather shit isn't even viable to be discussed because there isn't a single ability that GameFreak has made where the effect stops after a certain amount of time. Some abilities have to get triggered to eb put to use, but there isn't a turn limit to any of them and that's why I cannot see something like a rain, sun, hail, or sand based ability not being permanent. I would see a permanent trick room ability happening before that, and even that I am very skeptical of.
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Yes it is viable to discuss. Pretty much anything can be discussed in this thread to theorymon how the metagame would react to specific Pokemon getting new moves, abilities, play styles, etc. I don't see what's wrong with talking about a five turn TR ability. Anything is possible with GF, and there's no harm in discussing it. What makes you think that a 5 turn TR ability couldn't be a new thing? GF might want to not make it permanent in order to make the ability fair for competitive play, because I think they'd realize how amazing a permanent TR ability would be. It would be unique, and different. There's no harm in discussing it.
 
Gastrodon's main niche is being immune to Water-type attacks, honestly I would think that losing that would hurt it. Although there are some perks to it, mainly then being a solid counter for sun sweepers, Venusaur can't touch Sap Sipper Gastrodon, so it may have use, the choice between them would be extremely team dependent.

As for Swampert, like Gastrodon I guess it would help against sun, but I think Swampert needs more than a grass immunity to work in today's meta.
 
What if pokemon like Swampert and Gastrodon got Sap Sipper?
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For Gastrodon, I'm actually a bit torn as to how effective Sap Sipper would be. While having a Pokemon with zero weaknesses sounds great, what makes Gastrodon actually viable is Storm Drain. If you opt for Sap Sipper over Storm Drain, you're essentially giving up Gastrodon's utility against Rain teams. Sure, things like Celebi now have a harder time killing you, and HP Grass (whoever runs that as coverage) will be useless, but losing that niche ability to check the most popular playstyle in the metagame is a hell of a thing to give up. Plus, Gastrodon on its own isn't really the best Pokemon in the meta. It's got a good HP stat, but its bulk is just slightly above average, and its offensive presence is mediocre, relying on STABs and Toxic. It also can't really support the team in any meaningful way, lessening its individual ability. I would still think Storm Drain would be the superior ability in this metagame, but Sap Sipper is far from unusable. Best comparison would be the decision to run Levitate or Heatproof on Bronzong.

Now, Swampert on the other hand lacks a truly competitive ability. Swampert has much better individual stats (100 / 90 / 90 bulk is nice, and 110 / 90 offenses are usable) when compared to Gastrodon. By giving it Sap Sipper, you're giving it more things to switch into than without Sap Sipper, as compared to Gastrodon's removal of Storm Drain. Plus, Swampert at +1 with 110 Attack actually can hit something for good damage AND it get access to Stealth Rock and Roar. It still has its issues, like lack of recovery and low Speed, but I could see Sap Sipper Swampert making a push for lower-end OU.
 
Gary2346 said:
Here's an interesting question to think about: If a five turn automatic TR ability was released, who do you think GameFreak would give it to?
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I'd say Musharna. Slow, bulky, Psychic type, but with enough Special Attack to be potentially lethal in TR. It has Baton pass too. Musharna's also bad enough to fall to the NU tier (albeit, this is mostly because of being out competed, rather than Musharna actually being bad). However, Politoed too actually has stats that are overall not that bad; just that there are a million water types, and a thousand with better stats.

If going for an old, forgotten Pokemon that could use a revisit (much like Ninetales and Politoad pre-BW), I would say Exeggcutor is your man. Slow, but with that SEXY 125 Special Attack, and 2 interesting STABs. Exegg was a king of RBY and did well in GSC, but fell off the map after. However, it can be lethal under trick room, and has the bulk and typing to switch into some stuff.

Overall though, I'd say Hypno best fits the Ninetales/Politoad mold. Decent looking bulk, slow, forgotten psychic type that was never a real star... it can't really sweep intuitively, but it could be dangerous considering it has Baton Pass, Wish, and NASTY PLOT
 
G-Von said:
I understand this is a theorymon thread, but this non-permanent weather shit isn't even viable to be discussed because there isn't a single ability that GameFreak has made where the effect stops after a certain amount of time. Some abilities have to get triggered to eb put to use, but there isn't a turn limit to any of them and that's why I cannot see something like a rain, sun, hail, or sand based ability not being permanent. I would see a permanent trick room ability happening before that, and even that I am very skeptical of.

What if pokemon like Swampert and Gastrodon got Sap Sipper?

Their only weakness, a big 4 times weakness at that, is to grass so this would make them become a whole lot bulkier. This would help Swampert more since he would also gain a boost to his already powerful EQ's and Waterfalls, but Gastro becomes damn near unkillable since it has reliable recovery.
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What I meant by lasting onlt so many turns is that it'd keep raining a long as politoed is out, but once its not, the rain only lasts for awhile. This would make weather heavy teams a bit more reliant on presercing theie weather startwrs as opposed to bringing them right out and not giving two damns bout saving them.
 
5 turn Trick Room = good/usable
ever-lasting Trick Room = broken AF
Also i agree Musharna would get the Trick Room start up thing, although if such an ability existed it would be weird because Drizzle/Drought/Sand Stream/Snow Warning are ever-lasting. Even still, that'd be really cool.
 
What if haxorus got Fire Fang?

I mean, it has strong fangs, why doesn't it learn Fire Fang? It would improve him a little I guess. It would be much more in Sun teams where Fire Fang is boosted to hit hard things like Skarmory or Bronzong and it would be more threatening in general. I am pretty sure dragons like Dragonite, Garchomp and Salamence would still outclass it but Fire Fang could improve Haxorus a bit, as I already said.
 
Fire Fang is generally far too weak to be worth the effort, not to mention its chance to miss is more damning than the coverage. It hits Ferrothorn slightly harder than Superpower does, but Superpower has far far better coverage generally. Fire Punch would be something and maybe even make DD Dragonite a little less used, but that's the line, I think.
 
Alexander. said:
What if haxorus got Fire Fang?
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i don't think it will help much. Shure Ferrothorn and Forry will get hit harder but it is ultimately weaker than Superpower/Earthquake. Also i don't think they are fangs i thought they are the cheek bones. It Just won't be that beneficial for Haxorus.
 
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