Serious The Atheism/Agnosticism thread

Pwnemon said:
but if youre legitimately bitter about being circumcised you should probably learn to forgive. it's a minor thing.
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I'm not bitter about being circumcised; I'm bitter about having no choice in the matter (and the fact that I know it was done due to religion.) Like how you chose to nitpick at that, though.

Also, as for the first sentence thing, that is merely an observation I've made due to my own experiences with certain groups of religious people. That's all. But if it bugs you guys THAT MUCH (even though I stated that observation I've made wasn't the point of this thread) I'll take it out.
 
I honestly think that humans may not be smart enough to actually know what happened... have you ever thought that maybe humans have a limit to our intellectual strength? What if things like physics and calculus are just "human" things that don't actually tell what happened outside of our intellectual bubble? What if some religion is actually right? Our brains obviously have a capacity to which we can see how the world operates... We can only see so many colors etc... What if there were more colors outside of the spectrum that we simply cannot see? What if this extends further to math and science.. We possibly cannot have figured out everything. Interesting hmm?
 
I'm an Astronomy major, Curtains, and that might be odd for a person of Christian faith, but; I honestly believe there are things beyond the human brain's ability to comprehend. If you actually studied galaxies in depth, we probably know only about 30% of the nature of the Andromeda Galaxy, the closest one to us. We will probably never know everything about physics, the universe, nor anything beyond our planet until we can visit those places. It's not a religious thing, but the capability of our brains to process something as large and unfathomable as the universe and its properties is tiny.
 
Of course there's a limit to human intelligence. Not like anything's infinite.

Also, we don't know what actually happened. We weren't there. Nothing on this planet was there, and any life that may exist elsewhere wasn't there either. We have theories to suggest what could have happened, but these are not necessarily what happened. Plus, Tayla brings up a good point - the universe is huge (like, really fucking huge,) and I doubt we'll ever be able to know everything about it.
 
WaterBomb said:
I'm not sure OP realizes that Atheism is also a religion. A religion is simply the rules, routines and practices we undertake as part of holding to our beliefs. A Catholic, for example, goes to mass every Sunday, goes to confession, takes communion, etc. I'm not an Atheist so I can't speak to what their routines are, but they still have certain things they do and rules they follow as part of their religion.
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Atheism is most definitely not a religion, including by that definition. There are no common rituals or routines to all atheists. (The same goes for theism, of course, which is also not a religion.) By your definition, something like secular humanism could be a religion, but not "atheism" in general.

Re atheism vs agnosticism: most people who describes themselves as agnostic share 99% of their beliefs with most people who self-describe as atheist (and vice versa) and in both cases they often define the other position to be something other than what most people who describe themselves that way actually believe. People who call themselves agnostic will usually define atheism as being the belief that there is no god (strong atheism) rather than simply the lack of belief in a god (weak atheism). Similarly, self-described atheists often define agnosticism as the belief that it is impossible to know whether or not a god exists (strong agnosticism) as opposed to believing that we can't know whether god exists with existing information (weak agnosticism).

The thing is, though, that most "atheists" are weak atheists, and most "agnostics" are weak agnostics, and those two positions are very close to being the same thing. Both of them admit the possibility that there is a god, as well as the possibility that there isn't. Both can be generally classified as being a lack of belief rather than an actual belief. If there is a difference, it's that a weak atheist would say that there is probably no god, whereas a weak agnostic might say that we don't even know that much

There also also people who describe themselves as being "spiritually agnostic" or something like that, i.e. not believing in anything specific but feeling like there is something out there. That is pretty different from atheism, but in general those people won't just call themselves "agnostic" with no qualifiers.
 
Curtains said:
I honestly think that humans may not be smart enough to actually know what happened... have you ever thought that maybe humans have a limit to our intellectual strength? What if things like physics and calculus are just "human" things that don't actually tell what happened outside of our intellectual bubble? What if some religion is actually right? Our brains obviously have a capacity to which we can see how the world operates... We can only see so many colors etc... What if there were more colors outside of the spectrum that we simply cannot see? What if this extends further to math and science.. We possibly cannot have figured out everything. Interesting hmm?
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That's a great point, which is another reason why religion doesn't make any sense. This is part of the reason why I'm agnostic, because if there is a God who is all-mighty, all-power, all-everything, then why would it be concerned about whether or not tiny little lifeforms worship it? I believe might be some sort of conscious-ish force that could've had a hand in the Big Bang and shit like that, but as far as I know that's not what the religious textbooks say; the religious textbooks basically say that if you don't do that and if you do that you're going to be punished. Why would a God care if you ate pig? Why would an all-mighty being care if you murdered someone? Humans say they care, because in our eyes who wouldn't care about the fantastic species we aren't? Like I said before, religion is a way to keep everyone in line, explain things we can't explain, and provide comfort for those deprived of it because we're infinitesimally small compared to the rest of the Universe.
 
Only read a few post on this thread.
Just gonna leave my two cents.

I'm a Jesus lover. Religion didn't die for me.
I'm a lover of his presence.

I wasn't always that way. Never been in church until I was 17 or 18. Before then I was an atheist. I would read the bible and hate on it. I think it is funny how some atheist know more about the bible than most Christians. Christianity isn't about knowing the bible. It is about knowing Jesus. I've come to learn that Lord God wants us to know him. (He already knows us, and our habits. He wants us to get to know Him and His ways.)

One thing I am upset is the lack of true Jesus lovers out there in the world. Admittedly I maybe an attributing factor of 'false' Christians. I sometimes find myself living more in the flesh than in The Spirit. :(

I'm often told be the change you want to be. I'm trying to live by His ways. Its not easy but I have truthfully gave Him my heart and he has changed me.

Thanks for your time. Jesus Bless all of you :)
 
LucaroarkZ said:
I'm not bitter about being circumcised; I'm bitter about having no choice in the matter (and the fact that I know it was done due to religion.)
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i did say exactly that in my post :p

Like how you chose to nitpick at that, though.
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well, yes, and it had nothing to do with the thread topic, but harboring resentment against your mother for something so minor that can't be undone really isn't going to take you anywhere positive and life and i was just trying to be helpful. you really have to stop adopting an us vs them mentality of theists vs atheists (which is what we were all saying when we disagreed with the first sentence of op) because we all just want to get along lol


@above: unfortunately, given the nature of the internet, i cannot tell if you are being a response-baiting troll just looking to laugh at gullible Christians, but I'll bite.

it's great to hear the testimony of someone who's decided to change their life for Christ! I myself was also recently convicted to try and reform myself, since my life wasnt really showing Christ-like principles at all though I'd been saved when I was really young. You say that God wants us to learn His ways, which is true, but the only way we can do this is through reading the Bible in the guidance of the Spirit, which is exactly what I decided to do—read the Bible cover to cover in a year. I'd encourage you to dig into His word, too (i know you have had some different experiences with the Bible as an atheist, but if you look at it through a less cynical perspective I think you'll find a lot less contradiction and stupidity than you did as a nonbeliever.)

pps @ op you kinda asked for this derailment when you opened the religion can of worms as a whole but if you truly want to keep this thread confined to the atheist fan club then i'll take this to pm or something (or make my own thread for more broad discussion of topics of religion but i know a forum too well to think i wouldn't get trolled lol)

e@below: you're right shade, sorry @ lucaroark if i implied that being forced into a religion wasnt justification for some anger; however, it'd be better to continue focusing on a positive relationship with your mother than to harbor resentment over something from the past
 
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i am an atheist and very glad of it, as atheism is a conscious choice made based on facts (or lack of) that have been presented to them. religion is generally a by-product of an upbringing in a religious household - belief because it was learned from significant others. for this reason, i can understand why lucarioarkz is bitter about being circumcised, it was forced upon him by his parents. i don't think he is adopting an us vs them mentality pwnemon, i think he is justifiably upset by forced disfigurement. i view this kind of acts by parents as child abuse and indoctrination, everyone should be allowed to make their own choices and be respected for them.

you're right though pwnemon, no use crying over spilt milk

edit: i made a serious post in a forum wtf
 
What religion you believe in is generally based around your environment. I just don't see how someone can decide which religion is right. There are so many religions and so many Gods that you can potentially believe in, and if you don't choose the correct one you're going to "hell". Also, the way I look at religion is that if our heavenly father loved us so much, surely he'd provide some significant proof that he exists to save billions of his children. Yes you can bring up faith and that it's a test, but if God loves us like a normal father loves his children, he wouldn't send them to hell for lacking belief in something that has little to no evidence.
 
I just cannot believe that a kind god would let murderers, kidnappers, and rapists roam free. Therefore I have come to the conclusion that God is either nonexistent, is absent and unconcerned with us, or is evil. I do not think that option C is likely, but it IS a possibility.
 
WaterBomb said:
I'm not sure OP realizes that Atheism is also a religion. A religion is simply the rules, routines and practices we undertake as part of holding to our beliefs. A Catholic, for example, goes to mass every Sunday, goes to confession, takes communion, etc. I'm not an Atheist so I can't speak to what their routines are, but they still have certain things they do and rules they follow as part of their religion.

Honestly, if you're hoping this thread will go anywhere, you have to somewhat involve other beliefs besides Atheism and Agnosticism. It's fine to discuss your challenges in holding to these beliefs, but those challenges usually relate to opposing viewpoints, which need to be addressed if you want discussion to be complete. Good luck with this, as religion threads in a forum are notoriously dangerous and almost always degenerate into something unpleasant.
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wut?
 
Geodude6 said:
I just cannot believe that a kind god would let murderers, kidnappers, and rapists roam free. Therefore I have come to the conclusion that God is either nonexistent, is absent and unconcerned with us, or is evil. I do not think that option C is likely, but it IS a possibility.
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I'm not sure if I should be the one answering this for I am only a man.

Before I begin I would like to say rain falls on the just and the unjust.
Meaning that bad stuff happens to all people no matter if you are good or bad.

Man's heart is desperately wicked. We do as we please. Lord God acts as a Father. He loves us (equally) and lets us do as we please. My Father chose to give us free-will (in hopes we would chose Him over the evils of this world.) But as we have God the Father wanted to spend time with us we have the pleasures of the world pulling and tugging to get you away from Lord God.

God is always watching. Besides I should mention that there is one man who suffered all things including death. Jesus understands the pains of this world He walked in the flesh like us.

There is a song "What if God was one of us." All I can say is "I am one of Gods." and he gives us the choice to be His or to be one with this world. I should also mention that Lord God forgives. Yes he punishes, but he also forgives. Sometimes I here before you come to Christ you must be broken down.
These guys who murder, rape, and steal all need Jesus. Hell I need Jesus, and I believe in Him.

Jesus didn't come down to earth to save perfect people. Jesus came here for all of the "mess ups."

God Bless You.
 
GatoDelFuego said:
Atheism is kind of silly.

"There's no God!"
"Why?"
"Uh, because that's what I believe!"

Atheism and agnosticism are 100% different. I don't see much purpose for faith in my life, so I don't practice religion. If I die and it turns out that there is a God, I'll be pleasantly surprised I guess.
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or that belief is that they do not feel any spirituality, that they have never seen any evidence of any holy overlord in this often completely fucking terrible world, or that any amount of gods creating the world is still just as illogical as the world banging together from molecules slamming around exploding because any god existing is as preposterous an existence.

That you capitalized god is in your post is selfish, you are only thinking of your religion while trying to act like you can somehow accurately speak for the religion of others. Your religion is not necessarily the holy one truth, no matter how much you think it is. Speaking for the godless while invalidating what I guess everything but Judaism/Christanity/maybe Islam? Please.

Your post is especially ineloquent, and again even more selfish, in that it can be completely reversed to mock a religion that has a single or couple of gods at its head. If anything, religions without a god figure at the top make by far the most sense, the ones that try so hard to construct morals just based around what is good and just and sensible without injecting an authority figure into it. That is what being an atheist is like - at least for plenty of us, we see no need for a god because we are not evil, out of control, in pain, and in need of someone to tell us there is an afterlife. I think I am going to be dust, dirt, ashes, whatever when I die, and I am completely satisfied with this. Not "uh just because i stupid durr", but because I have already lived the life that I wanted to.

WaterBomb said:
I'm not sure OP realizes that Atheism is also a religion. A religion is simply the rules, routines and practices we undertake as part of holding to our beliefs. A Catholic, for example, goes to mass every Sunday, goes to confession, takes communion, etc. I'm not an Atheist so I can't speak to what their routines are, but they still have certain things they do and rules they follow as part of their religion.
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This is honestly basically trolling/lying? I mean sorry but dude come the fuck on. Yeah I make sure to masturbate to reddit while wagging my tongue and (the one not in use) middle finger at god before having an immoral orgy every Tuesday. We piss on every holy book we can think of at the end of it! Atheism is not a religion, and yes your examples of what a Catholic does might be very accurate. Since atheism is not a religion, we do not do anything like any of those. Ever. Our "rites", routines, and practices are to not ever remotely consider religion, to not think of it for one second, except when forced to argue with people who want to force it on us, or in the US at least when dumb media talking heads yell about Jesus, dumb athletes pretend some god granted them athletic success, or dumb media talking heads bash them scary Muslims for the 1 billionth time.

If the term atheist makes people like you have to try to stuffily stuff us into a religion just by having a name, feel free to go with godless, heathen, degenerate, any combination of those. Because there is nothing about being an atheist that is anything more than being godless.

If anything in this post is too heated, whatever sorry. I tried to actually not flame more than the words that I thought were manipulative. It is hard to react on both sides of a topic like this, and I do not hate anyone for trying to stand up for their religion, and I have no problem with you guys expressing your views of your own religiosity and why they are good and just or whatever (I do hate people for evangelizing when you express quickly you have no desire to be evangelized to, or who say shit like "without god, saturday would be shatterday, friday would be cryday, etc on facebook). I do get a little pissy about people who act like I cannot be convinced that being godless is right, as if you are the only person with conviction ever (not you so much WaterBomb, as the person above). There will never be a second in my life when I consider turning to any religion, this is a certainty. I will also never try to convince anyone to be an atheist - I will argue with them that their religion is crazy, but only because I strongly express what I think to be is true, the same as anyone else when it is a topic of discussion. If a person is genuine, kind, and chasing a vision of love, that is not such a bad thing. If a person (any religion, not specific at all) wants to act like their religion makes them superior, to tell people they are sinners or unclean, etc then that is a pretty big problem though.
 
CaptKirby said:
or that belief is that they do not feel any spirituality, that they have never seen any evidence of any holy overlord in this often completely fucking terrible world, or that any amount of gods creating the world is still just as illogical as the world banging together from molecules slamming around exploding because any god existing is as preposterous an existence.

That you capitalized god is in your post is selfish, you are only thinking of your religion while trying to act like you can somehow accurately speak for the religion of others. Your religion is not necessarily the holy one truth, no matter how much you think it is. Speaking for the godless while invalidating what I guess everything but Judaism/Christanity/maybe Islam? Please.

Your post is especially ineloquent, and again even more selfish, in that it can be completely reversed to mock a religion that has a single or couple of gods at its head. If anything, religions without a god figure at the top make by far the most sense, the ones that try so hard to construct morals just based around what is good and just and sensible without injecting an authority figure into it. That is what being an atheist is like - at least for plenty of us, we see no need for a god because we are not evil, out of control, in pain, and in need of someone to tell us there is an afterlife. I think I am going to be dust, dirt, ashes, whatever when I die, and I am completely satisfied with this. Not "uh just because i stupid durr", but because I have already lived the life that I wanted to.
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I capitalized god because my fucking phone did it automatically.

I'm seriously confused with what you're saying. If you finished reading my post, you'll see I say I'm not religious at all. Assuming you did see this, you tell me I claim my religion is superior (my "religion" being agnosticism/atheism) and then go and say that atheism isn't a religion. The only way this would make sense is if you didn't actually finish reading what I said.

My post was mocking people that turn to atheism because "lol thers no god" but if asked why, they'd only come up with "Because it's what I believe!". That's basically a religion. Every religion in the world is "atheistic" toward most other religion's gods. Hell, probably every modern religion doesn't believe in the greek gods. I consider these types of atheists to be a more "religious" type of atheist, not practicing any religion because of what they believe and not on other reasons, such as scientific proof or whatnot. Reasons outlined in this other post I made, which you probably didn't read.
 
I assumed you were religious because of the God thing, I assumed no actual atheist buy into that "Him" shit and all (non-christian based religions capitalize crazy shit too to coopt religious meaning).

The reason to be an atheist can be as simple as there being no good answer, it does not really matter. Belief is religious when you start creeping to words like "blind faith" or "I just know it", not when you say things like "I do not know it" or "I cannot believe, it would feel ridiculous". The language might be close, but you are still mocking the wrong shit. Being an atheist can be apathy, disconnecting because of how people who are religious commonly act...what matters is the actual specific attitude someone adopts about religion from there, not how eloquently they can defend themselves. That is really what I took offense to.
 
1. Really, try reading a post carefully before you make a three-paragraph rant

2. People capitalize stuff prevalent towards their religions out of respect for their deity. Calling it "that Him shit" is a bit rude

If you look at the wikipedia article on atheism, you'll see there's different versions of atheism. When I say "atheism is silly", I mean "explicit atheism is silly", which is saying that "there is some kind of deity" is automatically false and then arguing that point. The more "inclusive" version of atheism aims for "I don't see how there are any deities" other than "there are no deities". From an argumentative standpoint, I can't understand in a debate why you would start off with "you're wrong, here's why you're wrong. I am right and you are wrong." other than saying "based on this evidence, I don't see how you can be right. I may not be right either, but I don't see things in black and white"
 
I wouldn't really call atheism a religion. At it's base, it's just a lack of a belief in a god or gods due to a dearth of evidence. It's not based on belief or faith at all, which separates it from religion, where belief is (generally speaking) a central tenet. I merely see it as an evidence-based perspective through which one views the world where the atheist discounts as implausible anything there is not convincing evidence for. I don't think it can be considered something that requires a substantial amount of faith, even though some people will tell you it takes a lot of faith to believe there isn't a god; however, that's not entirely correct, as atheist don't think there isn't a god, merely that there is no evidence to support the idea that there is one (or many). It's a subtle distinction, but a very important one.
 
I thought we were going to be civil on this thread.
When I was an atheist I called Atheism a religion (or not). Opinions on whether or not Atheism is a religion comes down to the individual. It is like arguing over if your thumb is a finger (or not).

This thread should be more about our life decisions (and about our beliefs.)
No matter who you are you believe in something.

I would hope none of us here would be to flame one another.
I'm actually here to get to know a few people (and possibly talk to a few people about my beliefs (Jesus) and learn a little from what others believe.)

#Cat of Fire is AugustBurnsRed

@LucaroarkZ I'm sorry if the subject of your thread turned into something else, but I don't think you should hide your beliefs from your mother. When I was 14 I told my mom straight up. I didn't believe in God she got so mad. Blamed my dad and nearly crashed the car (we were driving at the time). Bro don't be mad about being circumcised. You're American, besides being circumcised isn't a Christian thing anyway. It is a Jewish thing (that America adopted). Anyway how you doing?
 
I'm an atheist myself. I was brought up with a minimal amount of religion at home (it was almost never addressed at all), and actually took some Christian side-education when I was around 14 (I think it's called Confirmation in English too, right?). However, after learning (and thinking) more about religion, I decided that no, I don't believe in this. It's simply asking me to suspend my disbelief too much. Still, I stayed with the church choir as a technician for three years, learning yet more and still realizing that I didn't believe (though it's good to know what I don't believe in, at least). And, let it be said, Christianity has quite a few brilliant points about moral and ethics. It's not that I dismissed everything they stand for once I realized I didn't believe the core story.

One of the things that got me thinking was the religious view on other religions. I mean, if Christianity is true, that would mean Hinduism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism and all the others are false, right? Logically speaking, and asking a few Christian friends, how could that be? The answers I got were eerily similar to what I had thought myself about Christianity: "They got it wrong somehow", "There's just one religion that everybody worships, a single god to answer all the prayers, but their interpretation is the false one", "Their religion is a construct by man", etc. They could easily see why other religions were false, citing a number of various reasons, but were quite adamant that the same logic could not be applied to their own religion (or the interpretation of the "one religion everybody worships"). It's like they were excempt from the criteria that falsified the other belief systems. When asked why, most said it came down to faith. Now, I don't doubt for a second that the Hindus, the Sikhs or for that matter the ancient Greeks or Vikings had any less faith in their religion that Christians have in theirs, so that argument didn't convince me. If the faith of some people is built on a "lie" and thus can be discarded, how could the faith of other people prove them right? Also considering that everything we know about the universe states it works perfectly without divine intervention, I decided to drop deities altogether and be an atheist.

How did society react? With a shrug, if anything. In Norway, about 70% of the population are members of the (former) state church, due to your automatic inclusion upon birth if both your parents were also members. Still, polls reveal that the number of people defining themself as Christians are below 35%, and falling (the exact question being "Do you believe Jesus was/is the son of God?"). Less than 2% of the population go to church more often than every other month, and even on Christmas Eve, the definite Church Day of them all, attendance is still in the vincinity of 10-15%. Most Norwegians are agnostics or atheists, and being explicitly Christian is, in most of the country, considered a lot weirder than being an atheist. The State Church was decoupled from the State a couple of years ago, now having a name nobody remembers (something to do with Lutheranism or something like that). Even my parents, when I told them, said "Atheist? OK, no big deal" and went on with whatever they were doing. I've got quite a few Christian friends, and quite a few atheist ones too, but in general, religion (or lack thereof) is regarded as "no big deal", something personal you shouldn't flaunt before others.
 
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Curtains said:
I honestly think that humans may not be smart enough to actually know what happened... have you ever thought that maybe humans have a limit to our intellectual strength? What if things like physics and calculus are just "human" things that don't actually tell what happened outside of our intellectual bubble? What if some religion is actually right? Our brains obviously have a capacity to which we can see how the world operates... We can only see so many colors etc... What if there were more colors outside of the spectrum that we simply cannot see? What if this extends further to math and science.. We possibly cannot have figured out everything. Interesting hmm?
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not really, science produces results quite consistently. Cars go, planes fly, bridges stay up, bombs explode, you know how it goes. Science works pretty well, there's no reason its methods cant examine everything.
 
WaterBomb said:
I'm not sure OP realizes that Atheism is also a religion. A religion is simply the rules, routines and practices we undertake as part of holding to our beliefs.
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I don't know... I'd say it's hard to define what a religion is. For instance, I'd like to look at Shinto as an example. Shinto is basically, to put it simply-- evolved/developed Japanese nature worship. That said, almost all Japanese go through Shinto rites throughout their lives, without them having much significant impact on faith. Many Japanese Buddhists and Christians follow Shintoism without thinking much about it.

Part of this is because most Japanese care so little about Religion.

Part of this is because Shintoism has no "higher beings"; no capital "G" God. There are millions of "kami" in Shintoism, and "kami" is often translated as "gods", but it's more like "spirits"-- in that, be they nature spirits or deceased people, kami are falible and stuck on this same earth-- we co-exist, but there's no upper-lower relationship. Praying to a shinto kami isn't like asking God for salvation-- it's more like asking a neighbor if he'll let you borrow his lawn mower. And if he doesn't, you say "fuck you" and go ask a different neighbor (or in this case, tie your bad luck fortune paper to a tree and go to a different shrine to try again, lol).

To put this in perspective, a Christian who also followed Shinto rites doesn't see Shinto kami as gods-- but just other things on the earth, like people, animals, and other parts of nature; they to are just fallible creations of God that exist on the same plane as us. Well, that's why I'm Christian and don't give a crap about praying at a shrine anyway.


There are several scholars of Japanese culture, and many Japanese, who don't consider Shintoism a religion at all-- but perhaps just another innate part of Japanese culture; like the way they take their shoes off, or the way Americans eat peanut butter sandwhiches.

Even this non-religion makes people pissed though. For instance, Yasukuni Jinja is a shrine for dead soldiers-- amongst whom enshrined include some of the war criminals of WWII. It's funny because the Chinese/Koreans are pissed at this, thinking the Japanese there are worshipping war criminals. From a Shinto stand point though, you're not worshipping them or anything else. Shintoism doesn't exist to judge the good or bad, but only to help living people co-exist with spirits (from nature or deceased people). You don't enshrine a person to worship them, you enshrine them to put their soul at rest (so it doesn't cause trouble for the living).

Is Shintoism a religion? I wonder.
 
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