Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
@PDC

That was beautifully summarized and gets the point across quite well. Cobalion's ability to hit a wide variety of threats hard and fast (keep in mind, Cobalion has the same Speed as Terrakion and Keldeo) is quite impressive. It works brilliantly as a wall breaker, pivot, and anti-hazard pokemon (if you use Taunt). It especially works well on Volt-Turn teams, where it can bounce around with its teammates and rack up damage and kills. Again, I've found Cobalion to be a rather unique kind of wall breaker, and a very effective one at that. I still believe it is worthy of B- Rank.
 
I totally agree with Cobalion for B- rank, and I actually proposed it for this rank a while ago. It's a very good suporter as well as a team lure (it lures Gliscor and Lando-T in and OHKOes them with HP Ice). There's also Volt Switch which allows it to escape from Fire- and Fighting- types, maintain momentum, and OHKO Gyarados after SR.
 
Nominating Gastrodon For B+ Rank

I think we all know I have a infatuation for the super slug here. Gastrodon is something pretty cool in the current metagame and I really think it should be a higher Rank that B-. It is way out of everything else in B-'s class completely, basically being the elephant in the room for that ranking tier. Gastrodon can fill, although limited to an extent, both defensive and offensive roles while still being a very cool Pokemon to use on a multitude of team archetypes. For starters, lets talk about Gastrodon's qualities and what it does best in the metagame. Gastrodon can function very well as a defensive wall that can handle quite a few Pokemon that otherwise seem extremely dangerous. Many teams struggle against Rotom-W, Starmie, and Keldeo, but Gastrodon can ease all of these problems with one set. A physically defensive Gastrodon set allows you too easily take on most non-Specs Keldeo if you are in a decent amount of health, and Starmie and Rotom-W really cannot touch you at all. Gastrodon also has a very nice bonus of having access to Recover, so you can Recover and heal up whenever you are in low health. Physical Defensive Gastrodon also can act as a bit of a fail-safe against many threats such as Landorus-T, Mamoswine, Garchomp, and Tyranitar. Although the slug seems a bit lackluster, it can take on a lot more than you would think. If your team wants a more offensive role you can take Gastrodon and turn it into a more offensive set with Life Orb, which makes your opponent think twice before he clicks that Hydro Pump. A +1 Life Orb Surf from Gastrodon is very deadly, and can out your opponent into a corner very quickly if they lack a proper counter. It also has rather unique coverage between Surf, Earth Power, and Ice Beam which basically allows you to hit every single type neutrally.

Gastrodon is also pretty anti-metagame if I do say so myself. It handles quite a few top threats currently, including Politoed, Keldeo(only defensive versions really, although any set appreciates a Hydro Pump), Tyranitar, Thundurus-T, Mamoswine(defensive), Landorus-T(defensive), Starmie, and Rotom-W. While it may not be quite A Rank, Gastrodon fills many roles that no other Pokemon really can with its decent amount of power and coverage. It can be amazing as a utility Pokemon, and also a very fearsome offensive Pokemon that can consistently damage the opponents team. Some of Gastrodon's best partners can range from Toxic Spikes support, Pursuiters, strong fighting types, dragons like Latias, and can make an amazing pair with Heatran when using a more defensive set. I'm not quite sure if this has been brought up before, but if it has it has to have been a little while ago. Gastrodon may not be able to sweep or wall half the metagame, but it definitely has some very good abilities that stretch far behind that of a basic simple niche.
 
Supporting Gastrodon for B+
I've made quite a few teams in my time, and most average players never think, "Man, I have to run a grass move on at least one Pokemon to stop Gastrodon!"
I made that mistake with one team. Never again.
Any unprepared team can easily be damaged hard by Gastrodon. It's a pretty lackluster Pokemon, to be honest. The only thing it has going for it is Storm Drain. But that's really all it needs. With all the water type moves running around (we've switched from perfect neutral coverage on Garchomp in Fire Fang to Aqua Tail for example, Latios is also commonly seen running surf over HP Fire or Psyshock) it has plenty of free switch ins, and now with +1 SpA it's free to terrorize anything not named Blissey or Jellicent. But of course, anything that's faster and has a grass move can normally check it (OHKO it).

I think the fact of the matter is it has gotten to the point no one cares about Gastrodon anymore that it becomes a surprise factor. It's easy to sweep unprepared teams with the right threat. Gastrodon is that threat. It's like when you get swept by something stupid when you're just starting out with an alt on the ladder and everyone has Ursarings and Hitmonchans that sweep your team because you don't need to prepare for them so you're weak to them. Except Gastrodon is OU. and can hold its own outside of taking water moves (for the most part). B+.
 
@Spinda
I don't use choice Keldeo, I don't see the point in choicing it because then you're much more vulnerable to Celebi/Jellicent when you can't click Hidden Power because you locked yourself into Hydro Pump. That's just my mentality, if it makes any difference here you go:

252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gothitelle in rain: 271-319 (96.44 - 113.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Correct me if I'm wrong, but most people use Rain with Scarf Keldeo. You need a scarf to outspeed specs, so here's two calcs for you

252 SpA Gothitelle Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 230-272 (71.2 - 84.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gothitelle: 268-316 (95.37 - 112.45%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

In this case I'm only mildy afraid of Scarf Goth and now I have Goth locked into a Psychic move and I can just Pursuit trap her with TTar or Scizor and get my momentum back. Trappers take a crapton of prediction to use effectively, and Gothitelle is no exception. I can't put it as high as A-rank like some people want. I'm not saying we should banish it into D-Rank, because trappers are very effective but Gothitelle is too weak without choice-locking itself into a bad move to be locked into (Psychic) while a top threat in Tyranitar has no problem Pursuit trapping it so now it's gone forever and anything that was scared of it can now have a field day. I don't even need TTar, Scizor works just the same.

I re-read my previous post about me disagreeing with running choiced Fighting types being scared of Goth, but 9 times out of 10 Keldeo is spamming Hydro Pump and is only spamming a fighting type move late-game to clean up what's left of the opponent's team so I don't think posting Secret Sword calcs are necessary when Hydro Pump is more effective.
 
Specs gothitelle can trap Keldeo locked into a fighting-type move and OHKO with Psychic, (252 SpA Choice Specs Gothitelle Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 386-456 (119.5 - 141.17%) -- guaranteed OHKO), but keldeo can predict that and OHKO it with a specs Hydro Pump after Stealth Rock... hmmm. Gothitelle can only reliably beat Keldeo after one of its teammates has fainted.
However gothitelle can trap Politoed and Ninetales (and maybe Hippowdon), so it's a good weather war tool (kinda similar to Dugtrio). I think it does deserve to be A-rank.
 
DoABarrelRoll said:
Specs gothitelle can trap Keldeo locked into a fighting-type move and OHKO with Psychic, (252 SpA Choice Specs Gothitelle Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 386-456 (119.5 - 141.17%) -- guaranteed OHKO), but keldeo can predict that and OHKO it with a specs Hydro Pump after Stealth Rock... hmmm. Gothitelle can only reliably beat Keldeo after one of its teammates has fainted.
However gothitelle can trap Politoed and Ninetales (and maybe Hippowdon), so it's a good weather war tool (kinda similar to Dugtrio). I think it does deserve to be A-rank.
Click to expand...

You usually don't want to switch into Gothitelle in that situation unless you know that Keldeo is locked into something you can take repeated hits from like HP Ice or Secret Sword. With that being said though I think a good argument can definitely be made for A- Rank. I started using Scarf lately to test a team that I was asked to rate and after you get used to it, you are really guaranteed either a KO or a vital Trick that will let you set up with something else, or just completely cripple the poke that you just tricked. It certainly has its flaws, most notably that its piss weak. But at the same time it can revenge kill a really good portion of the metagame and can take on whatever you want it to take on which is probably its most appealing tool. The fact that it can't switch in on a ton of things isn't as much of a problem as it seems either since it is best used as a revenge killer if given a Scarf. Also, just to comment on some other opinions, in Homeslice's example with Pursuit trapping Gothitelle after it took out Keldeo the Goth user won that situation imo. You run Pursuit trappers on Keldeo teams to take out Keldeo's counters, not to revenge KO them. The Goth user has taken out the threat they wanted to deal with in Keldeo and now does not have to worry about it. It doesn't matter that Goth is gone because it did what it was supposed to do. Not to mention you did not gain any momentum in this situation since you are probably Choice Locked into Pursuit which is about as far from having momentum as you can get.
 
Heres the thing about Gohtitelle, it is an amazing trapper which can preform in a lot of roles. Although it may not be able to trap everything like some posts above say, it definitely can cripple a multitude of things and help your team gain an advantage. If you ask me personally I think Gothitelle works best against stall teams when it is a Choice Specs variant. Although sometimes you have to look out for a ScarfTyranitar Pursuit, which is always a problem if there, if the opponent lacks it you can easily adjust and pick apart the opponents team one by one. This is because Gohtitelle works bets with momentum gainers, and I find that the most reliable way to trap Keldeo is to pair Gothtielle with something like U-Turn Scizor, U-Turn Volcorona, or SD U-Turn Landorus-T. As expressed in many posts above Gothitelle has trouble outright switching into Keldeo, and like most trappers it is rather fragile in some aspects and needs to be sent out at appropriate times only. Its not that it is a bad Pokemon at all, but people sometimes forget its flaws. It can be Pursuit trapped easily (although this can work to its advantage sometimes if you have something like Lucario or Scizor), overall is very weak without Specs, and Slow without Choice Scarf. Gothitelle, like I said, is a great Pokemon to pick away at stall wit, but not really the best to combat against offense. It can trap to win weather wars also, but that is completely different.
 
252 SpA Gothitelle Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 320-378 (122.13 - 144.27%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yes, but Gothitelle is screwed over by Scarf Gengar, a good set in the current meta
Same for Salamence, can get an easy moxie boost with gothitelle and also valid for Scarf Landorus-T
In essence, Gothitelle can't switch in to any of these because any of them can carry a scarf AND outspeed.
So Cobalion is pretty much agreed for B- Rank? There was a lot of support for it before it was swamped by the gothitelle discussion so...
 
The problem with that Landorus calc is that the only Landorus-T you see that run 4/0 are offensive variants, and, uh, 252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gothitelle: 186-219 (66.19 - 77.93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Against defensive Landorus-T, you've got a 50% chance to OHKO after Rocks. Keep Gothitelle B+, he's just too slow and too weak.

Yeah, vyomov beat me to it. Whatever.
 
You are both forgetting that Gothitelle comes in after an attack, allowing you to scout for scarf. If you see no Life Orb on Mence after Outrage you won't switch into it. However if it just used Fire Blast to take out your own Ferrothorn, you can then safely switch it in for the revenge KO. Gothitelle can beat scarfers one on one when they are locked into the appropriate move and it will never be switching into a scarfer otherwise. Also, @Lord of Bays, don't construe stats for the benefit of your argument. You used an offensive Lando spread against Goth and a defensive one when taking the hit. You can't have both so Goth wins against Lando locked into EQ as well.
 
Sorry, that wasn't my intention. It's a minute difference anyway. 64+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gothitelle: 178-211 (63.34 - 75.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
It's fine. It isn't minute though because Goth gets two hits on non-scarf Lando-T as opposed to one, so assuming SR and full health (which is more likely for Goth by the way) Gothitelle beats Offensive and Defensive Lando-T, making it an awesome Terrakion partner as stated above.
 
I'm not saying it needs base 110 Speed and base 145 Special Attack to work as a trapper, but base 65 Speed on top of base 95 Special Attack is just too lacking. You can't even get a 2HKO on SpDef Hippowdon with Grass Knot (BP 240 after SE multiplier, by the way) without Specs. I've run Scarf Gothitelle in the past and it just doesn't hit hard enough or move fast enough. It DOESN'T do the job at least 90% of the time, that's my issue with Gothitelle moving up to A Rank.
 
Gothitelle is somehow beaten by the other sets, that's something I would take into consideration.
Click to expand...
Gengar can predict the switch and set up Sub and game over for Gothitelle:
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gothitelle: 240-284 (85.4 - 101.06%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also, most Mences are already at +1 by the time Gothitelle is in, making things quite horrifying for the Gothitelle user.

When stuff like Hydreigon(which is MUCH scarier than Gothitelle) is in B+, I think Gothitelle being A isn't correct.
 
Prediction works both ways, so please don't use that flawed concept as an argument. Second, please reread my post on how to use Gothitelle before you take it upon yourself to judge its tier placement. "Most Mences are at +1 by the time Gothitelle is in" is an incredibly fallacious argument because you're just making assumptions and situations out of thin air. It's like me saying I just passed Gothitelle +6 to every stat via Baton Pass, so it can beat Tyranitar easily. Do you understand how asinine this kind of logic is and frustrating it is having to respond to it? Finally, Hydreigon and Gothitelle are incomparable at the roles they do; one is a trapper, the other is a wallbreaker. So I do not agree with this comparison and line of reasoning either. One can be placed higher or lower than the other.
Click to expand...
Let me get this straight: you actually think that the chances that Salamence gets ONE moxie boost is AS MUCH AS the chances of Gothitelle getting +6 stats baton passed? 50% of the time, Salamence WILL be at +1, so any checks to it have to be able to deal with it AT LEAST at +1, like Scarf Latios or even Scarf Garchomp, who can outspeed and OHKO.
On the other hand, the chances of Gothitelle getting +6 in every stat is probably at approx 0.01% considering phazing, crits, etc. So how exactly is a 50% chance the same as a 0.01 % chances again?

Yes, Hydreigon and Gothitelle are not comparable in terms of just the pokemon themselves as both fulfill different roles.
However, Viability Rankings discuss HOW effective a pokemon is, and in my mind if Hydreigon is rated as B+ effective, placing Gothitelle as A effective makes no sense whatsoever.
 
vyomov said:
Let me get this straight: you actually think that the chances that Salamence gets ONE moxie boost is AS MUCH AS the chances of Gothitelle getting +6 stats baton passed? 50% of the time, Salamence WILL be at +1, so any checks to it have to be able to deal with it AT LEAST at +1, like Scarf Latios or even Scarf Garchomp, who can outspeed and OHKO.
On the other hand, the chances of Gothitelle getting +6 in every stat is probably at approx 0.01% considering phazing, crits, etc. So how exactly is a 50% chance the same as a 0.01 % chances again?

Yes, Hydreigon and Gothitelle are not comparable in terms of just the pokemon themselves as both fulfill different roles.
However, Viability Rankings discuss HOW effective a pokemon is, and in my mind if Hydreigon is rated as B+ effective, placing Gothitelle as A effective makes no sense whatsoever.
Click to expand...

When Hydreigon is supposed to be a wallbreaker and Gothitelle is still a lot scarier to face when using stall I don't see why it doesn't make sense.
Gothitelle is by far the most threatening pokemon in B+, I'm not sure if it's A material, but it's more threatening than Hydreigon despite the huge power gap.
 
Salamence is not at +1 boost most of the time nor is gothithelle supposed to revenge kill it... You guys are completely missing the point of how game changer is the ability to trap and remove from the game anything you want. This opens rooms for so many things its ridiculous. Thats a lot more threatening than even some A-rank things. I support Gothithelle for A-rank.
 
How do you guys feel about Bisharp? Having the second strongest priority in the game, with a great typing and enough of a movepool to do what it needs. Support options like taunt, thunder wave and stealth rock, along with SD, sucker punch, night slash, low kick, iron head etc. An amazing ability, which means it actually appreciates the common Landorus-T, Gyarados, and other intimidaters switching in.
+3 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 200 HP / 244 Def Landorus-T: 357-420 (96.74 - 113.82%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO
+3 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Night Slash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 306-361 (77.86 - 91.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
A lot of teams use intimidate to keep physical sweepers in check, throw taunt in the mix and it even beats skarmory, and set up on the likes of Ferrothorn comfortably
I could see it fit the B rank quite nicely.
 
Last edited:
Nominating Jirachi for S rank.

People have been debating whether Jirachi should be S rank or not already in previous pages. It fills so many roles, including a great Scarf set, a fantastic SpDef wall, and a deadly CM sweeper. It offers support for the team in the form or Wish, Healing Wish, and Stealth Rocks. Jirachi has seriously good typing, and it's movepool is incredible. And to top it all off, Jirachi can beat some of it's best counters with Iron Head flinch hax. While I don't believe that this pushes Jirachi to S rank, there's a new set floating around on the OU ladder that everyone is using now thanks to Bryce's Team. There's also a similar set which is currently being used in the OU CCAT.

385.gif

Jirachi @ Shuca Berry
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SAtk / 224 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

With this set, Jirachi is now able to best some of it's best counters, with a surprising HP Ice. Generally Garchomp and Landorus-T love to switch into Jirachi, as they counter the usual sets. However, this Jirachi not only supports the team with Stealth Rocks, it also acts as an amazing lure to eliminate these Pokemon. Shuca Berry allows Jirachi to easily live EQ from Garchomp or Landorus-T, while Jirachi KOs them both back. Flash Cannon offers STAB and hits moderately hard, while Thunderbolt offers Bolt Beam coverage.

385.gif

Jirachi @ Leftovers / Shuca Berry
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 152 Atk / 208 SAtk / 148 Spd
Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Iron Head
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunderbolt

Then there's this set, which drops SR for even more coverage. Grass Knot is pretty cruical, as it allows Jirachi to easily get past Gastrodon and Hippowdon, which are also general switch ins to Jirachi. Shuca Berry can be used on this set to also tank an EQ easily, but it's generally pretty easy to hit Gliscor / Garchomp on the switch, since they are such obvious switch ins to Jirachi. Iron Head is used over Flash Cannon for the 60% flinch rate and the ability to hit on both sides, while Jirachi is also packing Bolt Beam for it's amazing coverage.

The fact that Jirachi can get past it's usual counters so easily, as well as providing team support in so many other ways I believe makes Jirachi S rank worthy. I just generally think you're never at a disadvantage if you through Jirachi onto your team, and it can fill so many different roles. This sounds S rank worthy to me.
 
Icecream said:
Where are you getting this from. I'm saying your situation is coming out of thin air, which it is. If you let salamence get to +1 (something that isn't always going to happen, sorry to break it to) then you switch gothitelle into it, you're playing like a fool.
Click to expand...
While there's no guarantee that Salamence can get to +1, I'd imagine that it wouldn't be so hard for him to get that one boost. Only dedicated walls or steel types can survive more than 2 hits from Salamence.


Icecream said:
You want to give me some citations and clarify where these numbers are coming from?
Click to expand...
When people start pulling out numbers, it may be questionable, but there's no doubt in anyone's mind that it's a lot harder to get a +6 Gothitelle than a +1 Salamence.


Icecream said:
It makes sense because Hydreigon isn't the god all-be wallbreaker so many of you think it is. Gothitelle is a very effective trapper and thus deserves A-rank. Hydreigon's performance is not as consistent. Sorry if this doesn't make sense to you, but your arguments and line of reasoning make no sense to anyone with a reasonable amount of intelligence.
Click to expand...
I don't think Hydreigon deserves to be in A-rank, but I don't think Gotheitelle deserves to be in A-rank either. While Gotheitelle has the nice ability to trap ANY pokemon it wants (as opposed to Dugtrio only trapping grounded pokemon or Magnezone on trapping Steel-types), it has neither the power nor speed to do it that effectively. It's poor defensive typing coupled with okay-ish defense stats means that it'll probably only be able to take one solid hit (unless it's coming off from something with no attack EVs). You can patch up it's poor speed with a scarf, but then it would be stuck with a decent-but-not great attack stat. Likewise, you can give it choice specs to give it that extra punch, but then it'll be pretty darn slow.

The power to chose your battles (via Shadow tag) is a great one, which is what made Gothitelle viable in OU, but that by itself does not make it A-rank. Gothitelle has very clear flaws. It's too slow and it's not strong enough. A choice item can remedy one of those problems, but not both of them at once. I believe it is perfect where it is now, in the same rank as Dugtrio and Magnezone. While Magnezone and Dugtrio can't trap as many pokemon as Gothitelle, their stats are much more specialized to suit their needs. While Dugtrio isn't so strong with only a base of 80 attack, it's great speed makes it ideal for revenge killing weakened opponents. It also has good utility moves in the form of Momento, Sucker punch, and Stealth Rock. Magnezone is pretty slow, even slower than Gothitelle, but it has great defensive typing and a great attacking stat. Though Gothitelle's stats aren't nearly as good as Magenzeon's or Dugtrio's, the sheer power to trap literally any pokemon it wants makes Gothitelle on par with those two, but no more.
 
ShootinStarmie said:
Nominating Jirachi for S rank.

People have been debating whether Jirachi should be S rank or not already in previous pages. It fills so many roles, including a great Scarf set, a fantastic SpDef wall, and a deadly CM sweeper. It offers support for the team in the form or Wish, Healing Wish, and Stealth Rocks. Jirachi has seriously good typing, and it's movepool is incredible. And to top it all off, Jirachi can beat some of it's best counters with Iron Head flinch hax. While I don't believe that this pushes Jirachi to S rank, there's a new set floating around on the OU ladder that everyone is using now thanks to Bryce's Team. There's also a similar set which is currently being used in the OU CCAT.

385.gif

Jirachi @ Shuca Berry
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SAtk / 224 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

With this set, Jirachi is now able to best some of it's best counters, with a surprising HP Ice. Generally Garchomp and Landorus-T love to switch into Jirachi, as they counter the usual sets. However, this Jirachi not only supports the team with Stealth Rocks, it also acts as an amazing lure to eliminate these Pokemon. Shuca Berry allows Jirachi to easily live EQ from Garchomp or Landorus-T, while Jirachi KOs them both back. Flash Cannon offers STAB and hits moderately hard, while Thunderbolt offers Bolt Beam coverage.

385.gif

Jirachi @ Leftovers / Shuca Berry
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 152 Atk / 208 SAtk / 148 Spd
Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Iron Head
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunderbolt

Then there's this set, which drops SR for even more coverage. Grass Knot is pretty cruical, as it allows Jirachi to easily get past Gastrodon and Hippowdon, which are also general switch ins to Jirachi. Shuca Berry can be used on this set to also tank an EQ easily, but it's generally pretty easy to hit Gliscor / Garchomp on the switch, since they are such obvious switch ins to Jirachi. Iron Head is used over Flash Cannon for the 60% flinch rate and the ability to hit on both sides, while Jirachi is also packing Bolt Beam for it's amazing coverage.

The fact that Jirachi can get past it's usual counters so easily, as well as providing team support in so many other ways I believe makes Jirachi S rank worthy. I just generally think you're never at a disadvantage if you through Jirachi onto your team, and it can fill so many different roles. This sounds S rank worthy to me.
Click to expand...

The Shuca set is absolutely amazing. I think this set is so successful at not only getting SR up on the field, but it's coverage is amazing to the point that Jirachi will most likely always nab at least 1 kill. It's one of the best SR leads in the entire game because only powerful Fire-type attacks can threaten to OHKO this thing, which pretty much always guarantees that Jirachi will get up SR. Grass Knot fucks Gastrodon and Hippo, HP Ice is for Garchomp and (BAN ME PLEASE) that try to setup first turn one with D-Nite, Thunderbolt is for Skarmory, and Iron Head is for Terrakion and Mamoswine. So basically, this thing is really good. Combined all of this with Jirachi's dangerous Sub CM set, CM +3 attacks, invincible specially defensive set, and the Scarf set that glues a lot of offensive teams together Jirachi is probably S-rank at this point. It's just so fucking versatile and it can fit on almost every team that needs a reliable special wall, revenge killer, or just a straight up sweeper. Jirachi is incredibly dangerous in the rain because it's no longer hit super effectively by Fire-type moves, it can use a 100% accurate Thunder that has a 60% chance of paralyzing (more like 95%). It can hard wall Tornadus and Latios, both very powerful threats in the OU metagame that normally tear teams apart. It's just such an amazing Pokemon in OU right now, and there's so many factors that would push it to S-rank. I understand that T-Tar is pretty much metagame defining and it's one of the best Pursuit trappers in the metagame, but even with its myriad of flaws, it still manages to be an amazing Pokemon. Jirachi has MUCH less flaws then T-tar, and it's more versatile, while being able to fit on more teams then T-Tar as well due to mass amount of niches in has on teams.

Jirachi is S-rank, no doubt. It's just so good in this meta game right now.
 
Last edited:
If we are creating an A- Tier, then this is what it should look like:
205.png
Forretress
576.png
Gothitelle
635.png
Hydreigon
448.png
Lucario
373.png
Salamence
641.png
Tornadus
Forretress: One of the best utility pokemon in the tier. It offers all three entry hazards and Rapid Spin. It can run either a defensive set, or a Custap lead set, both of which are very effective in the current metagame. However, Forretress's lack of offensive presence makes it prone to becoming set up bait. However, the utility Forretress provides makes it worthy of Low A-Rank.
Gothitelle: Shadow Tag allows it to trap and KO several important threats, allowing something else to sweep. However, Choice Specs Gothitelle doesn't due very well against offense, as it is rather slow. Scarf Gothitelle does a bit better against offense, but it can really only kill things that are weak to its moves. Despite this, the support that Gothitelle provides is enough to bring it to Low A-Rank.
Hydreigon: While Hydreigon does sport several common weaknesses and a rather average Speed stat, it has many attributes that make it worthy of low A-Rank. A Choice Specs Draco Meteor flat out murders anything that doesn't resist it and Hydreigon's excellent movepool makes it much harder to switch into than similar Dragon-types such as Latios. Hydreigon also has access to U-turn, allowing it to maintain momentum throughout the match. It has a large amount of flaws, but its pros make it Low A-rank material.
Lucario:
Salamence:
Tornadus:
I shall edit the explanations with more info later.

@Gary2346 Rotom-w takes pitiful damage from grass knot thanks to its low weight. However, I agree with moving rachi to S-rank.
 
Icecream said:
@TrippingRocks The point was that his arguments are asinine and coming out of nowhere. The examples are all just brought out of thin air, I don't understand why you would defend something like that.

Anyway, I disagree with your argument. I don't know how many times I need to underline how you use Scarf and Specs, but I'll restate it one last time and I'd appreciate if you guys could please read my previous posts before submitting an argument I've already broken down. You use Choice Scarf vs offensive teams, I've already put out a decent number of damage calculations showing that Scarf isn't that weak as you're making it out to be.
Click to expand...
You cannot switch between Choice scarf and choice specs on the fly. Whether you're facing an offensive team or defensive team, you won't have time to switch to the appropriate choice item once the battle has begun. You can get lucky and face the appropriate team with the appropriate item equipped or maybe not.

Icecream said:
Do you know how amazing it is to remove Pokemon like Breloom and Landorus-T from play? It opens up so many opportunities for your Pokemon to get a sweep going; stuff like Scizor and Terrakion really love this kind of support. Choice Specs on the other hand can take out defensive Pokemon and Gothitelle's reasonable bulk allows it to even take an attack from offensive Pokemon, so Choice Specs isn't deadweight vs offense. Now back to Scarf, even IF Gothitelle isn't powerful enough to 2HKO a defensive Pokemon it can just as easily cripple it with a Trick. I'd imagine that Choice Scarf Hippowdon and Chansey are dead weight and very easy to set up on. I think the ability to trap everything exceeds Dugtrio and Magnezone because as you said, they're more specialized. Gothitelle can trap so many different things and is the only trapper with access to Trick, which is pretty cool. It has good bulk, good coverage, and good enough stats, and an ability that can abuse those trait to a tee. It's A-rank in my mind without a doubt.
Click to expand...
Gotheitelle's ability to trap pokemon, which is undoubtedly great, is still not enough to make him A-rank alone. Choice specs against an offensive team, while not deadweight, is pretty meh. With his poor speed, poor typing, and decent defenses, Gothitelle definitely can get one hit in, but probably not much else. If it manages a kill, Gothitelle is very vulnerable to being pursuit trapped by Tyranitar or Scizor. Gotheitelle is good at removing one threat from the field, but it usually costs it's life.

While the prospect of eliminating any one of your opponent's pokemon by exchanging one of your own pokemon may be very good, that is all Gothitelle can do. The only other form of utility that Gothitelle has is Trick and if you give away your choice item, Gothitelle will have a hard time eliminating any other threat. While Gothitelle can certainly cripple a pokemon with Trick, he also really needs his choice item. And while Gothitelle can literally trap any pokemon in the game, it can't literally get rid of any pokemon in the game. Run HP Ice and Jirachi has nothing to fear except maybe Trick (which is a bit risky as Jirachi can benefit from any choice item depending on its set). Run HP fire and dragon types can survive their encounter with Gothitelle. Gothitelle needs a super effective move to do its job, thus he can't effectively kamikaze against certain pokemon.

Gothitelle has one of the greatest abilities in the game and he has a good move pool to back it up. However, his stats aren't good in OU standards, only decent. He also has poor offensive and defensive typing. He can't wall or sweep or provide any much utility besides Kamikaze. Kamikaze is a magnificent utility, it can easily decide the game for you if your opponent only carries one counter to your main sweeper, but other A-rank pokemon have more than just one purpose. Gothitelle is quite literally a one-trick pony. Trap something and kill it and promptly get pursuit trapped afterwards. It is difficult to stop Gothitelle from killing at least one pokemon, but once it kills that one pokemon, it can easily be rid of. No other A-rank pokemon has such little versatility. Gothitelle also has to be wary of Volt switch, U-turn, Baton Pass, and shed shell as they threaten his sole niche as a trapper (other trapping pokemon can do more than just trap).

Gothitelle simply isn't versatile enough to be A-rank.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top