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Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking
- Thread starter Chou Toshio
- Start date
What if Wild Charge became 120 base power?
This would make it equal to Double-Edge and Flare Blitz. Would physical electric types become more useful and would it be used more often as coverage?
This would make it equal to Double-Edge and Flare Blitz. Would physical electric types become more useful and would it be used more often as coverage?
We already got a Water-type Lava Plume. I might actually quit Pokemon if that happened.
EDIT (Wild Charge is buffed to base 120): ARCANINE FOR OU. But really, three base 120 attacks, all of them 100% accurate, One of them being STAB and the other two helping with coverage. Now if we tossed on Drought and/or Swords Dance...
EDIT (Wild Charge is buffed to base 120): ARCANINE FOR OU. But really, three base 120 attacks, all of them 100% accurate, One of them being STAB and the other two helping with coverage. Now if we tossed on Drought and/or Swords Dance...
http://tervari.psim.us/battle-outheorymon-1587
Snaq was using a triple rush stragety that ripped me apart, after a couple stupid plays for Landorus-T.
Snaq was using a triple rush stragety that ripped me apart, after a couple stupid plays for Landorus-T.
As mentioned, it's unlikely that this would make a big impact on the game, but there are some funny tricks you could do with it. One would be using a fast setter like Uxie (actually, Uxie is the only mon I could think of to abuse with). Let's take the situation of Uxie v. Taunt Jellicent.
Turn 1:
Uxie outspeeds Jellicent, uses TR
Jellicent uses Taunt (too late)
Turn 2:
Jellicent outspeeds, uses Scald (hits Uxie, unable to hit TR Sweeper)
Uxie uses U-Turn, switches safely to a TR sweeper
Very situational, so again, not likely to create big changes-- but it would be change.
I'm not sure it would be too popular, only because Scald is so good. Most defensive Water types would much prefer that game-changing chance at 30% burn compared to healing.
Just think about if the shoe was on the other foot-- what if Grass got a 30% paralysis 80 base power move? Very few if any defensive grass types would use Giga Drain. Sure, offensive ones like Venusaur would still much rather have giga drain-- but Water has Surf and Hydro Pump. How likely are people to want to use water-giga over Surf or Hydro Pump on an offensive water-type?
Even on a really physically defensive water-type like Slowbro, water-giga is too repetitive with his other attacks/ability to be really useful.
Now, if we were talking about a water-type Horn Leech (ie. physical, not special), then there's one's Pokemon who'd obviously love to have it! Gyarados. With its good bulk, intimidate, and offensive set-up sweep play style, Gyarados would absolutely love a physical water gigadrain (water horn leech)!! This would be very similar to Giga Drain > Energy Ball, when you think that the best current option is water fall. Plus, with Gyara's bulk and playstyle, Water Horn Leech would make him an absolute monster!! (even more so than now)
Not too many others though-- there aren't a whole lot of other physical water-types besides Gyarados and Feraligatr. Feraligatr wants to get into Torrent range, so a healing attack is counter productive. Plus, if it gets Sheer Force, then Waterfall would be even better.
a physical version for Gyarados is probably the most (if only) relevant possibility.
What if Togekiss got Hurricane and Thunder?
With decent bulk and a base 120 SpA, a STAB Hurricane could be very annoying. Due to Serene Grace it would also have a 60% chance to confuse the opponent, leading to a 30% chance of the opponent attacking themselves if they are slower. The move Thunder would also have a 60% chance to paralyze, making a terrifying Parafusion combo. An option is also using Air Slash to flinch, and if all three effects are in play, the opponent will have a mere 23% to move. A moveset of Hurricane, Thunder, Nasty Plot and Roost would be scary to deal with. It could also potentially be used alongside Jirachi, as they have decent synergy and corresponding goals. However, it could be checked by pokemon such as Mamoswine, who are immune to thunder and have a power SE STAB move.
With decent bulk and a base 120 SpA, a STAB Hurricane could be very annoying. Due to Serene Grace it would also have a 60% chance to confuse the opponent, leading to a 30% chance of the opponent attacking themselves if they are slower. The move Thunder would also have a 60% chance to paralyze, making a terrifying Parafusion combo. An option is also using Air Slash to flinch, and if all three effects are in play, the opponent will have a mere 23% to move. A moveset of Hurricane, Thunder, Nasty Plot and Roost would be scary to deal with. It could also potentially be used alongside Jirachi, as they have decent synergy and corresponding goals. However, it could be checked by pokemon such as Mamoswine, who are immune to thunder and have a power SE STAB move.
And I thought Jirachi was bad...It can also run Aura Sphere to fuck over Ttar. Nothing can stop the had now!!!
Watch the double post. Anyway, while Motor Drive is cool and all, I really think he would rather keep Volt Absorb due to his fragility. Being able to patch up some life orb(if using) and SR damage is a big plus for any wall breaker, specially when it keeps momentum going. Yeah, he would love the speed boost, but...it just doesn't -sound- as useful, you know?
I'm assuming Motor Drive Thundy would try to sweep rather than wallbreak. It would be awesome, if very situational.
What if Ninjask got Taunt?
It wouldn't make Jask good, but it would be at least usable. Being able to avoid opposing Taunt and phazing attempts, and to a lesser extent hazards, for a few turns without having to switch to Espeon are big pluses for Baton Pass teams, and teams using Ninjask as a stand-alone passer. Of course, it would still have trouble with priority and its own godawful defenses, but that is unavoidable.
What if Ninjask got Taunt?
It wouldn't make Jask good, but it would be at least usable. Being able to avoid opposing Taunt and phazing attempts, and to a lesser extent hazards, for a few turns without having to switch to Espeon are big pluses for Baton Pass teams, and teams using Ninjask as a stand-alone passer. Of course, it would still have trouble with priority and its own godawful defenses, but that is unavoidable.
Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Ninjask: 198-237 (60.92 - 72.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If it can survive Mamoswine's Ice Shard and still have enough HP left to set up a Substitute, then I think its defenses are at least better than "godawful". I think that Taunt would be a substantial buff that could easily replace Toxic in its moveslots, as it's a far better way to keep things like Volcarona from setting up speed boosts alongside it. Being able to deal with phazers without needing to Protect then immediately pass to Espeon is also great. As one who already considers Ninjask to be "usable", I think this pushes it farther into the "good" territory.
If it can survive Mamoswine's Ice Shard and still have enough HP left to set up a Substitute, then I think its defenses are at least better than "godawful". I think that Taunt would be a substantial buff that could easily replace Toxic in its moveslots, as it's a far better way to keep things like Volcarona from setting up speed boosts alongside it. Being able to deal with phazers without needing to Protect then immediately pass to Espeon is also great. As one who already considers Ninjask to be "usable", I think this pushes it farther into the "good" territory.
What if Garchomp got Dry Skin?
Being a shark, I totally feel like it should have an ability to benefit from Rain. But the question is, would it push Sub SD Chomp over the edge? It's pretty much like a Toxicroak on steroids, but it lacks that sexy evasion boost that made it Uber before. Garchomp would also become a much better supporter under Rain, although it would have more issues switching into Sun. I think it would be very intresting to have it in OU to see its impact, even if only for a few days. What do you guys think about this newfound Rain sweeper?
Being a shark, I totally feel like it should have an ability to benefit from Rain. But the question is, would it push Sub SD Chomp over the edge? It's pretty much like a Toxicroak on steroids, but it lacks that sexy evasion boost that made it Uber before. Garchomp would also become a much better supporter under Rain, although it would have more issues switching into Sun. I think it would be very intresting to have it in OU to see its impact, even if only for a few days. What do you guys think about this newfound Rain sweeper?
I guess you can say it's usable; it has a niche at least, though it's small and easily taken advantage of. Idk on the ladder the main team that I use has both a phazer and Icicle Spear Mamoswine so I'm rather biased about it.
Dry Skin Garchomp would be pretty amazing to use for a week. I'd say not much more than that, because if it wasn't broken it would at least see <30% usage. "Toxicroak on steroids" is it in a nutshell. At least we wouldn't be talking about banning Keldeo?
What if Latias got Baton Pass?
Overview: Now we all know what annoys Latias the most, Pursuit. However, what if we took Latias, and gave it something to freely play around pursuit while giving other sweepers an extreme boost/free turn as well?
Meet Baton Pass Latias
This gives Latias a whole new dimension, being able to pass boosts, scout switchins, generally give momentum to teams, and do 1 extremely important thing: Avoid Pursuit. Giving Latias a way to avoid getting pursuited by Scizor and Tyranitar while giving a free switch in and possibly a boost to something like Keldeo or Terrakion, for instance imagine LO latias clicked draco and now something died so ttar comes to punish it and pursuit trap it and kill it- oh wait,LO Latias uses Batton Pass to go into Terrakion and gets a free +1 in attack yeah, so you have a +1 Terrakion on your hands, now time to switch in landorus, oh wait it SDs and KOs your landorus next turn with SD rock gem, isn't that just lovely? Now you have a +2 terrakion on your hands, HAVE FUN. In another scenario you could be using CM latias + Specs/Scarf Keldeo in rain and ferrothorn switches in as you switch in or recover on +0 Latias, so now you can CM while ferro leech seeds, and the next turn avoid the hard hit from gyro and give a free switchin to +1 scarf or specs or possibly Ebelt keldeo in rain ready to spam hydro pump or secret sword, and now it can 2HKO your non sdef latias with hydro pump, HAVE FUN.
What Baton Pass Lets Latias do is not only have a whole new dimension to it, but make it an S rank level support and offensive threat that can escape it's #1 enemy, pursuit. This is kind of an ode to Sdef Baton Pass celebi as back in gen 4 people bitched about celebi not being able to get around pursuits and generally stopping momentum for some offensive teams and then they saw how B-Pass worked with pursuit and thus, a new dimension to NP celebi and regular celebi was born.
Specific Sets that benefit: Now when we think of B-Pass Latias, we know it's awesome, but what sets would run it effectively and how exactly would they do it? Here's a insight on that from me.
Set: Choice
Item
Choice Specs / *Choice Scarf *
Nature
Timid
MovesetEVs
~ Draco Meteor
~ Psyshock
~ Surf / Hidden Power [Fire]
~ Baton Pass 74 HP / 184 SpA / 252 Spe *4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe*
Set overview and general benefit: *Means choice scarf build non * means choice specs build*
Now when you see this set, you may be confused as to why you would use this, now you see, While Latias may be a great Nuke/*Revenge killer*, it has the Ttar and Momentum problem like every other Latias set, what this does is attempt to use Baton Pass as pseudo U-Turn for momentum AND A way to escape Tyranitar, letting you save Latias's power for later in the match, while going into something that can threaten tyranitar easily to remove it for a later latias nuke/kill.
Set: Calm Mind
Item
Leftovers
Nature
Timid
MovesetEVs
~ Dragon Pulse
~ Psyshock / Recover / Substitute / Hidden Power [Fire]
~ Calm Mind
~ Baton Pass 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Set overview and general benefit:
Calm Mind Latias is one of the most fearsome sweepers in the metagame right now, with enough bulk, utility, resistances and speed to set up on near anything and any playstyle of teams lacking scizor, jirachi or ttar (ferro is only considerable because some latias sets can launch a prediction war at ferro between leech and gyro and win). However those 3 pokemon in general just ruin it's day and jirachi just forces it to switch out and lose all it's boosts unless it's special rachi and the other 2 can pursuit trap it, now wait, with baton pass latias can simply boost + pass it's way out of all it's troubles, Meet a Jirachi? Just baton pass your boosts to a keld. Meet a scizor? THat shit can't trap you, Meet a ttar? same as the former!
This really offers a way out of most of CM latias's regular problems and really makes latias a threat to EVERY team
You can come up with your own sets, I really have though out some more, but I have to go to sleep in a while and I don't want to make this post too long lol. :p Regardless, what do you think about this theory mon? If you request a flavor entry, it's mainly because Latias has many features shared with pokemon who get baton pass, and it's a jet esque dragon, so it seems like it could switch out with a move that lets it do so w/o pure switching.
Overview: Now we all know what annoys Latias the most, Pursuit. However, what if we took Latias, and gave it something to freely play around pursuit while giving other sweepers an extreme boost/free turn as well?
Meet Baton Pass Latias
This gives Latias a whole new dimension, being able to pass boosts, scout switchins, generally give momentum to teams, and do 1 extremely important thing: Avoid Pursuit. Giving Latias a way to avoid getting pursuited by Scizor and Tyranitar while giving a free switch in and possibly a boost to something like Keldeo or Terrakion, for instance imagine LO latias clicked draco and now something died so ttar comes to punish it and pursuit trap it and kill it- oh wait,LO Latias uses Batton Pass to go into Terrakion and gets a free +1 in attack yeah, so you have a +1 Terrakion on your hands, now time to switch in landorus, oh wait it SDs and KOs your landorus next turn with SD rock gem, isn't that just lovely? Now you have a +2 terrakion on your hands, HAVE FUN. In another scenario you could be using CM latias + Specs/Scarf Keldeo in rain and ferrothorn switches in as you switch in or recover on +0 Latias, so now you can CM while ferro leech seeds, and the next turn avoid the hard hit from gyro and give a free switchin to +1 scarf or specs or possibly Ebelt keldeo in rain ready to spam hydro pump or secret sword, and now it can 2HKO your non sdef latias with hydro pump, HAVE FUN.
What Baton Pass Lets Latias do is not only have a whole new dimension to it, but make it an S rank level support and offensive threat that can escape it's #1 enemy, pursuit. This is kind of an ode to Sdef Baton Pass celebi as back in gen 4 people bitched about celebi not being able to get around pursuits and generally stopping momentum for some offensive teams and then they saw how B-Pass worked with pursuit and thus, a new dimension to NP celebi and regular celebi was born.
Specific Sets that benefit: Now when we think of B-Pass Latias, we know it's awesome, but what sets would run it effectively and how exactly would they do it? Here's a insight on that from me.
Set: Choice
Item
Choice Specs / *Choice Scarf *
Nature
Timid
MovesetEVs
~ Draco Meteor
~ Psyshock
~ Surf / Hidden Power [Fire]
~ Baton Pass 74 HP / 184 SpA / 252 Spe *4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe*
Set overview and general benefit: *Means choice scarf build non * means choice specs build*
Now when you see this set, you may be confused as to why you would use this, now you see, While Latias may be a great Nuke/*Revenge killer*, it has the Ttar and Momentum problem like every other Latias set, what this does is attempt to use Baton Pass as pseudo U-Turn for momentum AND A way to escape Tyranitar, letting you save Latias's power for later in the match, while going into something that can threaten tyranitar easily to remove it for a later latias nuke/kill.
Set: Calm Mind
Item
Leftovers
Nature
Timid
MovesetEVs
~ Dragon Pulse
~ Psyshock / Recover / Substitute / Hidden Power [Fire]
~ Calm Mind
~ Baton Pass 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Set overview and general benefit:
Calm Mind Latias is one of the most fearsome sweepers in the metagame right now, with enough bulk, utility, resistances and speed to set up on near anything and any playstyle of teams lacking scizor, jirachi or ttar (ferro is only considerable because some latias sets can launch a prediction war at ferro between leech and gyro and win). However those 3 pokemon in general just ruin it's day and jirachi just forces it to switch out and lose all it's boosts unless it's special rachi and the other 2 can pursuit trap it, now wait, with baton pass latias can simply boost + pass it's way out of all it's troubles, Meet a Jirachi? Just baton pass your boosts to a keld. Meet a scizor? THat shit can't trap you, Meet a ttar? same as the former!
This really offers a way out of most of CM latias's regular problems and really makes latias a threat to EVERY team
You can come up with your own sets, I really have though out some more, but I have to go to sleep in a while and I don't want to make this post too long lol. :p Regardless, what do you think about this theory mon? If you request a flavor entry, it's mainly because Latias has many features shared with pokemon who get baton pass, and it's a jet esque dragon, so it seems like it could switch out with a move that lets it do so w/o pure switching.
As
As mentioned in the OP, people are free to retouch on older subjects. I think dry skin both makes sense and would be a cool ability. Sub Sd would be killer in rain. Being a perfect stop to scarf rotom would be cool too.
As mentioned in the OP, people are free to retouch on older subjects. I think dry skin both makes sense and would be a cool ability. Sub Sd would be killer in rain. Being a perfect stop to scarf rotom would be cool too.
Oh, this is actually super interesting. I don't know about the Specs set, but on basically any other set you really do make Tyranitar and Scizor your bitch. Well, for Scizor you could be running HP Fire, but you get my point. I actually ran Choice Band Scizor for the first time in a long time a week or so ago and trapped six or seven Latios in a row (then Scizor was hit with a -2 Draco crit...) and Latias having a way around that smells like trouble for some special sweepers trying to get by. I would have more eloquent thoughts but I just finished tonight's episode of Breaking Bad and I need to go lie down and think about things.What if Latias got Baton Pass?
Overview: Now we all know what annoys Latias the most, Pursuit. However, what if we took Latias, and gave it something to freely play around pursuit while giving other sweepers an extreme boost/free turn as well?
Meet Baton Pass Latias
This gives Latias a whole new dimension, being able to pass boosts, scout switchins, generally give momentum to teams, and do 1 extremely important thing: Avoid Pursuit. Giving Latias a way to avoid getting pursuited by Scizor and Tyranitar while giving a free switch in and possibly a boost to something like Keldeo or Terrakion, for instance imagine LO latias clicked draco and now something died so ttar comes to punish it and pursuit trap it and kill it- oh wait,LO Latias uses Batton Pass to go into Terrakion and gets a free +1 in attack yeah, so you have a +1 Terrakion on your hands, now time to switch in landorus, oh wait it SDs and KOs your landorus next turn with SD rock gem, isn't that just lovely? Now you have a +2 terrakion on your hands, HAVE FUN. In another scenario you could be using CM latias + Specs/Scarf Keldeo in rain and ferrothorn switches in as you switch in or recover on +0 Latias, so now you can CM while ferro leech seeds, and the next turn avoid the hard hit from gyro and give a free switchin to +1 scarf or specs or possibly Ebelt keldeo in rain ready to spam hydro pump or secret sword, and now it can 2HKO your non sdef latias with hydro pump, HAVE FUN.
What Baton Pass Lets Latias do is not only have a whole new dimension to it, but make it an S rank level support and offensive threat that can escape it's #1 enemy, pursuit. This is kind of an ode to Sdef Baton Pass celebi as back in gen 4 people bitched about celebi not being able to get around pursuits and generally stopping momentum for some offensive teams and then they saw how B-Pass worked with pursuit and thus, a new dimension to NP celebi and regular celebi was born.
Specific Sets that benefit: Now when we think of B-Pass Latias, we know it's awesome, but what sets would run it effectively and how exactly would they do it? Here's a insight on that from me.
Set: Choice
Item
Choice Specs / *Choice Scarf *
Nature
Timid
MovesetEVs
~ Draco Meteor
~ Psyshock
~ Surf / Hidden Power [Fire]
~ Baton Pass 74 HP / 184 SpA / 252 Spe *4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe*
Set overview and general benefit: *Means choice scarf build non * means choice specs build*
Now when you see this set, you may be confused as to why you would use this, now you see, While Latias may be a great Nuke/*Revenge killer*, it has the Ttar and Momentum problem like every other Latias set, what this does is attempt to use Baton Pass as pseudo U-Turn for momentum AND A way to escape Tyranitar, letting you save Latias's power for later in the match, while going into something that can threaten tyranitar easily to remove it for a later latias nuke/kill.
Set: Calm Mind
Item
Leftovers
Nature
Timid
MovesetEVs
~ Dragon Pulse
~ Psyshock / Recover / Substitute / Hidden Power [Fire]
~ Calm Mind
~ Baton Pass 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Set overview and general benefit:
Calm Mind Latias is one of the most fearsome sweepers in the metagame right now, with enough bulk, utility, resistances and speed to set up on near anything and any playstyle of teams lacking scizor, jirachi or ttar (ferro is only considerable because some latias sets can launch a prediction war at ferro between leech and gyro and win). However those 3 pokemon in general just ruin it's day and jirachi just forces it to switch out and lose all it's boosts unless it's special rachi and the other 2 can pursuit trap it, now wait, with baton pass latias can simply boost + pass it's way out of all it's troubles, Meet a Jirachi? Just baton pass your boosts to a keld. Meet a scizor? THat shit can't trap you, Meet a ttar? same as the former!
This really offers a way out of most of CM latias's regular problems and really makes latias a threat to EVERY team
You can come up with your own sets, I really have though out some more, but I have to go to sleep in a while and I don't want to make this post too long lol. :p Regardless, what do you think about this theory mon? If you request a flavor entry, it's mainly because Latias has many features shared with pokemon who get baton pass, and it's a jet esque dragon, so it seems like it could switch out with a move that lets it do so w/o pure switching.
Baton Pass Latias = super cool, I'd love to see more experienced Latias users talking about it.
Calm mind, dragon pulse, roost, baton pass sounds like a scary set. Basically play it like a standard cm latias but when ttar, scizor, ferrothorn or whatever else that walls you, comes in, just baton pass to another attacker. Think keldeo, thundurus-t, heatran, venusaur or whatever else you want. Lol latias could even find use in full baton pass chains. This would also give celebi a run from its money since its competition has been significantly improved and can now escape pursuit too.
Would baton pass latias be broken though? It now gets past pursuit, passes stat boosts and wishpasses. The scary thing is that it can do it all on the same set.
Latias w/leftovers
dragon pulse
cm
wish
baton pass
what do u think? Also,
what if mew had an ability that changed its type to match the type of its 1st attack?
So if mews 1st attack was ghost type, then mew would become a ghost pokemon, and so on. Would this mew be ou viable or would it be outclassed at every type.
Latias w/leftovers
dragon pulse
cm
wish
baton pass
what do u think? Also,
what if mew had an ability that changed its type to match the type of its 1st attack?
So if mews 1st attack was ghost type, then mew would become a ghost pokemon, and so on. Would this mew be ou viable or would it be outclassed at every type.
Isn't that what Conversion does? Anyway, I don't think it would be that good. You would have to waste a turn using it and Mew isn't the fastest Pokémon out there so things could still hit you before you get the chance to change type. Still, I suppose you could keep your opponent guessing as to what type you would turn into once you used it, but taking up a moveslot and a turn doesn't seem appealing to me.
He says an *ability*, not an attack. Like, put Thunder as the first attack in your moveslot before battle and boom, you have an electric type Mew when you enter the battle.
Now, this depends on whether the opponent sees what type you are or not. Either way, it looks like it'd just be a decent gimmick and nothing that will impact the metagame. Nasty Plot Mew with STAB Aura Sphere to get past Heatran/Ferrothorn sounds cool, though.