Poll for our default simulator tiering level

[Agent Gibbs]

People keep talking speed tiers this and memorizing stat that. Without seeing the actual, solid changes, in writing, a number of the people reading through this are going to feel like they are being pushed back and forth by boogie men within the community. This sounds less like a Smogon policy discussion and more like the American Politicians duking it out.

Just as an example, at level 100, 252/252+ Hippowdon can always survive 2 Close Combats from Choice Band Terrakion at full health. At level 50, Terrakion can 2HKO ~6% of the time. It's not much, but that's the sort of power creep you'll start seeing all across the board. Seeing as how a common complaint about new games is the power creep, this is pretty significant. As for speed tiers, one example would be Scarf base 60s. They ordinarily failed to outspeed Starmie at +1, which gave Tyranitar (base 61 Spe) a cool advantage as a Scarf user since it could. At level 50, Scarf base 60s now outspeed Starmie. Likewise, Scarf base 70s can now outspeed base 130s, which they were previously unable to do.

The OP is also misleading in saying lv.50 is the only Wi-fi option, when several people have pointed out that lv.100 is wholly possible in non-random matches.

Also, this. People are acting like if we don't drop the mark to level 50, we're no longer staying true to the game. It certainly is possible to battle other people at whatever level you want. Yes, it takes more work. So does EV training. So does breeding for the right nature, ability, IVs, and moves. The point of Pokemon simulators are to remove the extra work so that you can make an ideal team and jump right into battles. I don't see why we have to adjust level for Wi-Fi players when they could just as easily get a level 100 team with enough effort.

 

[Piccolo289]

Guys, Gibbs is right. Too me, personally, lvl 100 pokes bst is easier to calculate than lvl 50

 

[vileguy]

I think it makes the most sense to move to a level 50 format. It shouldn't have a huge impact on the game. A few minor EV adjustments to make, but with every new generation there are already numerous changes to account for anyway, even if this one has fewer than previous ones. I certainly plan on playing both and would appreciate the consistency.

 

[Fuzzball]

A lot of people here don't seem to have ever played on the cartridge... Like others have said, if Smogon were to switch to level 50, the level max would just change to 50 rather than 100. In flat battles (which this would mimic), Pokemon are scaled DOWN but not necessarily up. No moves are lost. Level 1 strategies still can be used, etc.

EVing and even breeding for quint-31 IV mons are easier than leveling to 100 in X and Y. I mostly use the simulator for testing teams I plan to breed on my game, so if Smogon supported level 50 ladders and analyses, then it would benefit me MUCH more than just following the tradition of level 100. I know a lot of people that play the same way I do.

Sure level 100 battles are possible, but level 50 is the official main mode, and therefore Smogon should support it. Otherwise it may become distanced from the community that prefers to play on cartridge.

 

[Salemsectra]

I suppose we really need to think about what Smogon's point in existence really is. Are we here as godly rule-makers, to shape and form the Pokemon metagame in ways that GameFreak never intended? If so, why not allow CAPmons? -- they're supposed to make OU even more interesting and diverse. Clearly, we are not trying to completely reshape the metagame, the way we see fit: the basic mechanics of the core tiers must lie in the cartridge games. The 'About Smogon' page says that "Smogon is the most comprehensive and accurate online resource for competitive Pokémon battling." IMO, Smogon is here to give slight touches to the metagame to maximise fun, enjoyment, and balance, but maintain "accuracy". We're trying to give "a resource" to in-game players who are battling on in-game cartridges. Yes, we use Showdown!, but Showdown! simply pretends we have infinite money and time (besides a time machine) to obtain the perfect Pokemon we want. Through banning and changing things, we're trying to make an interesting game to play, based on what GameFreak has given us. It only makes sense, especially for such a small change, to stick with GameFreak's lv 50 rules -- especially if its really the easiest and most popular way to play in the cartridge.

Okay, yes, I hear a lot of you saying that it won't be such a "small change." Things will be different! Attacks will be stronger! It will change everything -- not necessarily for the better! But the point is, with the advent of XY, we are forming a new metagame. We won't maintain Oldmon's old stats; we won't maintain Steel's resistance to dark/ghost; we won't maintain Aldaron's proposal. Instead we are essentially building an entire new game. With new rules. With new Pokemon. There is no reason to maintain anything: all the old cards have been swept aside for a new deal. The new metagame might just be like this -- we'll have to deal with attacks being slightly stronger, etc., but that's what a new gen means! New pokemon, abilities, types! New levelling does not actually seem that outlandish, in the end.

There's the age-old phrase, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." The problem is, because our traditional way of playing is not really supported in-game, our traditions are broke. We are players of GameFreak's Pokemon, albeit with some fun-, balance-enhancing rules, not players of some strange cult offshoot that has lost touch with the core mechanic and the way the game is actually played.

Even if we can play XY at lv 100 in the games (there's been some confusion; I'm not entirely sure because I don't own the games and people seem to be saying different things), we should still stick with lv 50 because of the point of Smogon. I, like most of the rest of you here (I think), came to Smogon a couple years ago wanting in-game help so I could beat my friend. What is the point, if we're so attached to lv 100 mons, if these new players can't really get help? We are supposed to be "the most comprehensive and accurate online resource," but will we really be that if we've shifted away from the simplest way to play in-game?

tl;dr: we should do lv 50 because we are supposed to be a "comprehensive and accurate online resource for competitive Pokemon battling," not our own cultish offshoot from GF's game, sticking with tradition because we're too afraid to change.

 

[PKMN1]

Just as an example, at level 100, 252/252+ Hippowdon can always survive 2 Close Combats from Choice Band Terrakion at full health. At level 50, Terrakion can 2HKO ~6% of the time. It's not much, but that's the sort of power creep you'll start seeing all across the board. Seeing as how a common complaint about new games is the power creep, this is pretty significant. As for speed tiers, one example would be Scarf base 60s. They ordinarily failed to outspeed Starmie at +1, which gave Tyranitar (base 61 Spe) a cool advantage as a Scarf user since it could. At level 50, Scarf base 60s now outspeed Starmie. Likewise, Scarf base 70s can now outspeed base 130s, which they were previously unable to do..

That does not seem too bad for me, actually seems better than the some of the changes that happens between gens. Tyranitar has been OU for 4 generations, scarf or no scarf, getting that outspeed thing does not exactly seem like a huge deal. same with Starmie, it outspeeds many pokemon itself, and seeing some pokemon being able to outspeed it seems sort of like a good thing.

 

[Roadsigns]

It is supported in-game, it just takes more effort.

Also, Fuzzball, why should Smogon go through the trouble to change all of their already established standards? I don't understand why everybody should re-learn how EVs work so that you don't have to spend more time using calcs.

Just play wifi if that's what you want so bad. Adjust the level 100 analyses based on the little changes and calc it out.

You're the minority here, so...

 

[Aura Flare Riolu]

There is a "No Restrictions" option that's the same as Normal Rules but it doesn't set levels. And considering how it's easy to Level Up in this game, I guess there's that...

 

[Piccolo289]

Let's just make a lvl 100 cap tier and 50 cap tier

 

[Stallion]

If we're gonna make the default level 50, we might as well remove sleep clause, ban Celebi and Jirachi and strictly enforce item clause. After all, it's what the cartridges want.

Why mess with something that's been in place since Gen 1 for the sake of change?

 

[Manaphy]

I suppose we really need to think about what Smogon's point in existence really is. Are we here as godly rule-makers, to shape and form the Pokemon metagame in ways that GameFreak never intended? If so, why not allow CAPmons? -- they're supposed to make OU even more interesting and diverse. Clearly, we are not trying to completely reshape the metagame, the way we see fit: the basic mechanics of the core tiers must lie in the cartridge games. The 'About Smogon' page says that "Smogon is the most comprehensive and accurate online resource for competitive Pokémon battling." IMO, Smogon is here to give slight touches to the metagame to maximise fun, enjoyment, and balance, but maintain "accuracy". We're trying to give "a resource" to in-game players who are battling on in-game cartridges. Yes, we use Showdown!, but Showdown! simply pretends we have infinite money and time (besides a time machine) to obtain the perfect Pokemon we want. Through banning and changing things, we're trying to make an interesting game to play, based on what GameFreak has given us. It only makes sense, especially for such a small change, to stick with GameFreak's lv 50 rules -- especially if its really the easiest and most popular way to play in the cartridge.

Okay, yes, I hear a lot of you saying that it won't be such a "small change." Things will be different! Attacks will be stronger! It will change everything -- not necessarily for the better! But the point is, with the advent of XY, we are forming a new metagame. We won't maintain Oldmon's old stats; we won't maintain Steel's resistance to dark/ghost; we won't maintain Aldaron's proposal. Instead we are essentially building an entire new game. With new rules. With new Pokemon. There is no reason to maintain anything: all the old cards have been swept aside for a new deal. The new metagame might just be like this -- we'll have to deal with attacks being slightly stronger, etc., but that's what a new gen means! New pokemon, abilities, types! New levelling does not actually seem that outlandish, in the end.

There's the age-old phrase, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." The problem is, because our traditional way of playing is not really supported in-game, our traditions are broke. We are players of GameFreak's Pokemon, albeit with some fun-, balance-enhancing rules, not players of some strange cult offshoot that has lost touch with the core mechanic and the way the game is actually played.

Even if we can play XY at lv 100 in the games (there's been some confusion; I'm not entirely sure because I don't own the games and people seem to be saying different things), we should still stick with lv 50 because of the point of Smogon. I, like most of the rest of you here (I think), came to Smogon a couple years ago wanting in-game help so I could beat my friend. What is the point, if we're so attached to lv 100 mons, if these new players can't really get help? We are supposed to be "the most comprehensive and accurate online resource," but will we really be that if we've shifted away from the simplest way to play in-game?

tl;dr: we should do lv 50 because we are supposed to be a "comprehensive and accurate online resource for competitive Pokemon battling," not our own cultish offshoot from GF's game, sticking with tradition because we're too afraid to change.

Woah there jason

You can type a lot, but you're argument is pretty bad. Everything with do in the sim is possible, including level 100 play, and there's little point to change. If people who need help to beat their friends need EXACT level 50 EV's, then they themselves are pretty bad.

 

[666lumberjack]

I think the major problem with this discussion is that we're having a argument without being able to see any of the real impacts between the changes. If we, as a community, are to have this type of conversation, it needs to be better researched first. Show us some numbers, because while some of us will, I doubt most of us will go to damage calculators and see if a pokemon at lvl 50 is more likely to get a OHKO against something it should counter vs what it does at lvl 100.

People keep talking speed tiers this and memorizing stat that. Without seeing the actual, solid changes, in writing, a number of the people reading through this are going to feel like they are being pushed back and forth by boogie men within the community. This sounds less like a Smogon policy discussion and more like the American Politicians duking it out.

I have made several posts a few pages back about how pretty much all of the really dangerous Pokemon at end of Gen 5 become appreciably stronger at level 50, either due to gaining the ability to kill a wall in less turns than they could previously or due to them having a greatly increased chance to kill a defensive Pokemon before it can retaliate successfully. Keldeon, Landorus, Terrakion and Kyurem-B all become appreciably more difficult to beat with the change, and these are not Pokemon that needed buffing. That's just four examples, but BW was packed will barely-contained threats, many of which may now be simply too good.

As far as I am concerned, this isn't an argument about game mechanics, it's about the mechanics of matchmaking online in the games vs what we can implement on a simulator. The game will differ from what Pokemon Showdown! uses anyway because Pokemon Showdown! has various tiers available for matchmaking where Wi-Fi has only one. We already have a generation 5 global link tier, there's nothing stopping us updating that for gen 6 and having it be a familiar welcome for wifiers looking to join Smogon. Perhaps, having experienced that, they might choose to move on to Smogon's metagames and perhaps they might not. Hell, Smogon already has a Wi-Fi battle finder that people could use to look for level 100 battles on the cartridge if they wish to. It's not as thought the only options for a cartridge player are 1. level 50 or 2. only with RL friends. How can we justify a major change to metagame balance just to make our format slightly more similar to nintendo's - it's not as if people won't have to adapt to our banlist anyway so I don't see the "it will confuse people who are used to global link" argument either. Imagine for a second that Blaziken ends up broken in XY and we ban it. It won't be banned on the global link. People who are looking to test global link strategies might want to use Blaziken, but they wouldn't be able to even IF we switched to level 50. In this respect, a separate global link metagame is better than changing our main one to level 50. We can have nintendo's bans, a nice subforum and a tier on showdown. All the wifiers get to test the strategies they want in an appropriate, accurate meta, and we don't have to make balance scrafices regarding our main tier for the sake of acclimatising newcomers. Surely this way everybody wins?

 

[PKMN1]

It is supported in-game, it just takes more effort.

Also, Fuzzball, why should Smogon go through the trouble to change all of their already established standards? I don't understand why everybody should re-learn how EVs work so that you don't have to spend more time using calcs.

Just play wifi if that's what you want so bad. Adjust the level 100 analyses based on the little changes and calc it out.

You're the minority here, so...

Ev's are changed by only a couple points and is not going to change much. the only real issue is some pokemon out speeding others when they previously would not, which happens anyway in between gens thanks to new pokemon, new moves, and new abilities.

 

[MrMewTwo]

I am for level 50. It makes logical sense to have the simulator in level 50 format. To the people making the speed tier debate: although this is true and it can significantly change which pokemon outspeed one another, one cannot help but observe that the consequences of scarfing still hold. That being said, this could fundamentally improve the tiers. Many pokemon are considered nonviable due to their low speed. This could significantly close the gap and potentially introduce some new kinds of playstyles. I fully support the level 50 format.

 

[Piccolo289]

Flygon thanks for elaborating on what I meant.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

That does not seem too bad for me, actually seems better than the some of the changes that happens between gens. Tyranitar has been OU for 4 generations, scarf or no scarf, getting that outspeed thing does not exactly seem like a huge deal. same with Starmie, it outspeeds many pokemon itself, and seeing some pokemon being able to outspeed it seems sort of like a good thing.

If you think a ~3% power increase across the board in a game where stall has already suffered more and more with each new generation is a good idea, then I'm not really sure what to say.

 

[Fuzzball]

It is supported in-game, it just takes more effort.

Also, Fuzzball, why should Smogon go through the trouble to change all of their already established standards? I don't understand why everybody should re-learn how EVs work so that you don't have to spend more time using calcs.

Just play wifi if that's what you want so bad. Adjust the level 100 analyses based on the little changes and calc it out.

You're the minority here, so...

It's a new metagame and a lot of stuff is changing anyway. Move power changes, Pokemon base stat changes... If there's any time to change it would be now, before everything settles.

I know I'm likely the minority, but this thread is for sharing my opinion. Maybe if everyone in my situation posted and voted, then we might not be the minority? I'm just rallying for the direction I would personally like to see Smogon go in, as you are.

 

[PKMN1]

If you think a ~3% power increase across the board in a game where stall has already suffered more and more with each new generation is a good idea, then I'm not really sure what to say.

The nerfs to special move probably have a much bigger impact than 3%.

 

[BattleStar]

Yes! I have always battled at level 50 and hated how level 100 battling was always the norm. Level 50 battling I find is a lot more fun and much easier to EV train. It also in my personal opinion makes reading EVs and stats easier.

 

[dende5416]

Just as an example, at level 100, 252/252+ Hippowdon can always survive 2 Close Combats from Choice Band Terrakion at full health. At level 50, Terrakion can 2HKO ~6% of the time. It's not much, but that's the sort of power creep you'll start seeing all across the board. Seeing as how a common complaint about new games is the power creep, this is pretty significant. As for speed tiers, one example would be Scarf base 60s. They ordinarily failed to outspeed Starmie at +1, which gave Tyranitar (base 61 Spe) a cool advantage as a Scarf user since it could. At level 50, Scarf base 60s now outspeed Starmie. Likewise, Scarf base 70s can now outspeed base 130s, which they were previously unable to do.

Yes, but my point wasn't so much that the numbers aren't there, its that only a few people in this conversation are actually using them. The original OP didn't do the topic justice without providing the numbers originally, and so people are blindly swinging at each other now.

 

[Roadsigns]

Ev's are changed by only a couple points and is not going to change much. the only real issue is some pokemon out speeding others when they previously would not, which happens anyway in between gens thanks to new pokemon, new moves, and new abilities.

That's just not true. Seriously dangerous mons from the last gen get severely more dangerous! Look at FastFlygon's posts, please.

On the other hand, what viable reasons other than "It goes against what GameFreak wanted" and "It'll make it easier for wifiers" can you offer in return?

Because...neither of those things are even intrinsically true. There are wifi tiers on the simulator, and you can do level 100 wifi battles by unchecking a goddamn box.

 

[Haruno]

Ev's are changed by only a couple points and is not going to change much. the only real issue is some pokemon out speeding others when they previously would not, which happens anyway in between gens thanks to new pokemon, new moves, and new abilities.

A base 108 will still outspeed a base 90 if that's what you're talking about, rather than spout claims why don't you list examples rather than repeating yourself over and over again with no facts/calcs to back it up?

 

[blitzlefan]

Just as an example, at level 100, 252/252+ Hippowdon can always survive 2 Close Combats from Choice Band Terrakion at full health. At level 50, Terrakion can 2HKO ~6% of the time. It's not much, but that's the sort of power creep you'll start seeing all across the board. Seeing as how a common complaint about new games is the power creep, this is pretty significant. As for speed tiers, one example would be Scarf base 60s. They ordinarily failed to outspeed Starmie at +1, which gave Tyranitar (base 61 Spe) a cool advantage as a Scarf user since it could. At level 50, Scarf base 60s now outspeed Starmie. Likewise, Scarf base 70s can now outspeed base 130s, which they were previously unable to do.
Also, this. People are acting like if we don't drop the mark to level 50, we're no longer staying true to the game. It certainly is possible to battle other people at whatever level you want. Yes, it takes more work. So does EV training. So does breeding for the right nature, ability, IVs, and moves. The point of Pokemon simulators are to remove the extra work so that you can make an ideal team and jump right into battles. I don't see why we have to adjust level for Wi-Fi players when they could just as easily get a level 100 team with enough effort.

Yeah, I personally favor the level 100 cap, because although convenience for people who play on cartridges would definitely be appreciated, as soon as this starts to screw with Speed tiers and damage calculations which are fundamentally much more important to competitive battling (Smogon's focus) than adhering to cartridges, it's just not okay. I'm not opposed to change, but this just messes with competitive battling as it has been in an unnecessary way. I definitely see why convenience would be nice, but it comes at too great a cost.

And PKMN1 please stop.

 

[PKMN1]

A base 108 will still outspeed a base 90 if that's what you're talking about, rather than spout claims why don't you list examples rather than repeating yourself over and over again with no facts/calcs to back it up?

I am talking about the several people who mentioned for example the fact that now base 60 speed scarfers can outspeed standard Starmie, which they mentioned as a niche of T-Tar who is at base 61 (like he needs any more niches then he already has) It was not me who even posted it, but someone AGAINST level 50 who posted that it hurts T-tar and Starmie.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

The nerfs to special move probably have a much bigger impact than 3%.

The damage nerf was a small blessing for stall teams, so I'd rather not undo that. Not only that, but this says nothing about moves that were not nerfed. Perhaps you missed when I specifically mentioned CB Terrakion, one of the fiercest wall breakers in BW OU? Close Combat isn't any weaker, nor is Stone Edge. Not every move was nerfed, and stall will still suffer from this power creep regardless of whether or not some moves were nerfed.