Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

[November Blue]

This thread, quite honestly, surprised me. I've been playing OU Beta all week and Gengar hasn't been an issue at all. I've barely even seen it. I can remember one instance of M-Gar in which it caught me with Destiny Bond, but I think I still beat it... can't remember exactly.

So where did this discussion stem from? Did something happen that I'm unaware of?

Anyway, my current thoughts are that Gengarite should NOT be banned yet. OU is still in its developmental stages, and I don't think we should make any big tiering decisions until PokeBank, at the very least. One advantage of is that, as people are still using slapdash teams that focus more on experimenting and testing new stuff, we don't yet have an accurate representation of Gengar's impact on the metagame. Given time, I think people will learn how to use it properly (akin to Deoxys-S once it was let loose in OU), and only then can we make an informed decision. All we have right now is conjecture, tbh. "Gengar can perish trap everything!"

I'm a huge Gliscor player, and I think he would fare quite well against M-Gar. Consider this:

Let's say that I switch Gliscor in to wall something, and get outsmarted by my opponent, who seizes the opportunity to switch Gengar in on say... Roost. My Gliscor set is EQ, Roost, Taunt, and Aerial Ace/Rock Slide/Ice Fang. Gengar can't really switch into any of these moves safely (which could be true for most walls) so let's assume that Gengar has already Mega-evolved, and both Pokemon are at full health.

Now, if I know Gliscor well enough, I'd guess that Shadow Ball would deal about 80-90%. It wouldn't OHKO, but it'd come close. Gliscor has Taunt, and can EQ Gengar for an easy KO. Let's say that Gengar has Protect, Perish Song, Disable, and Shadow Ball. If I predict correctly, Gliscor wins. Gengar can't use Perish Song or Shadow Ball or it'll get KOed. It can attempt to Protect-Disable EQ, but I can just Taunt it. If Gengar goes for Perish Song on turn 1 I can Taunt, then force Shadow Ball vs. EQ.

Gengar can win by using Shadow Ball Twice while I Taunt, or... actually, I think Gliscor straight-up beats Perish trap. Trapping a foe doesn't always mean that the opponent is doomed, and Gengar's susceptibility to Taunt + inability to just mow stuff down with Shadow Ball means that it doesn't always get a free ride.

I've never seen Perish trapping used in a serious competitive scenario before. It's a fiddly strategy that requires good conditions, and its reliance on proper execution means that Gengar isn't an automatic win button.

 

[DaiGuren]

This is nice to know but not relevant. People, everyone within this thread is well aware that Gengar is frail, its base stats are everywhere. Furthermore everyone is well aware that Priority from certain pokemon can OHKO Gengar. This however, has limited impact on the Mega Gengar discussion as a whole, because Gengar will trap something, and then switch out when you bring in your Priority user, and then come in later to trap and kill something else. Even if your priority user killed Mega Gengar, I don't care, because Mega Gengar already achieved its goal in trapping what I wanted it to. Anything else is seriously just a bonus (and Destiny Bond can get me an extra KO if you are slower). I feel this needs to be spelled out again, since as a moderator, I am frustrated with this exact line. We know its frail, now prove to me how the priority arguement is even relevant to the discussion when Gengar already succeeded in its job before you could even bring in your priority user.

^this +100000000

A trapping Gengar has no real counterplay, because it's not countered by conventional means.

Lets take Talonflame and Tyranitar for example. Tyranitar is a counter to Talonflame because it can switch in on Talonflame, and OHKO next turn if Talonflame decides to stay in. So the only real logical step for Talonflame is to switch out, no? We call this to be a counter. Why? Because whether Talonflame stays in or switches out, Tyranitar will have prevented Talonflame from doing its job, which is to sweep.

Now MegaGar, nothing can truly stop it from doing its main job, which is to trap a threat/wall that hinders your team. That is to say, yes there are pokemons that can counter and force MegaGar out, even kill it before it can do anything. But remember, MegaGar's job is not to stay in on something it can't take, but to trap something it can deal with and take it down. So basically, if we go back to basic logical terms, a counter to MegaGar is a mon that prevents it from doing its job.

So going with that, a counter to MegaGar should be able to trap it and kill it. Such an answer exists, in the form of Pursuit. However, MegaGar also has ways around that, mainly Sub + Disable. If somehow a mon:

gets STAB Infiltrator Pursuit while

being faster than MegaGar
or
can take a STAB Shadow Ball coming from a base 170 Sp. atk and survive

, then that mon would truly be called a counter to MegaGar.

 

[AuguryOfRuin]

Mega Gengar is the only Pokemon that gets Shadow Tag + Perish Song in Pokebank? This has been pointed out multiple times: A complex ban is illogical in this case because it only affects one Pokemon. Seriously people, stop bringing this up. It's ridiculous.

Its a puzzle thats guite great... I feel sad for the fact that a pokemon is banned because of one move. Its a powerfull pokemon but why is it worthy of a ban because of one move? I just find it ridicolous to ban a pokemon because it happens to learn a move x and can actually utilise it. There are many checks and counters for a mega gengar. I don't see Kyurem-b on the banlist, and its lackluster move pool has wrecked teams easily with what its got. Mega gengar isn't any different from any trapper. You send it in, you trap one pokemon, you kill and maybe kill a second pokemon, most likely just dying horribly. it can utilise perish song pretty well, but it still will only kill most likely one pokemon with it. After that pokemon dies, people will send something that can kill it. Lets leave this fella for future suspect testing, quick banning is not justified if you ask me. Theres way too many checks to this thing for it to be justified for quick ban.

 

[GaleYamanaka]

Just curious here, but is there anything inherently wrong with banning ST+perish song?

 

[Ultimathunder]

Just curious here, but is there anything inherently wrong with banning ST+perish song?

Because there is ONLY ONE USER OF THAT COMBINATION. Like someone said earlier, it's like banning Sand Stream + pursuit.

 

[GaleYamanaka]

Because there is ONLY ONE USER OF THAT COMBINATION. Like someone said earlier, it's like banning Sand Stream + pursuit.

Right, but the main complaint is that perish trapping with it on that specific 'mon is broken right? I don't see how it's like banning "sand stream+pursuit" if that's not an actual broken combination. It seems like a safer way of doing things and it's not like it would be impossible to change the ban (either removing it or banning mega-gar entirely if it's needed).

 

[Hitaku]

Coming from the fighting game community I have to say that I'm pleased to see all of these people discussing viable counters. From my experience people would rather throw the ban hammer down rather than learn to adapt or play around something. It's crazy to me how quickly people are jumping the gun with this issue. Does he have counters? Yes. Many people in this thread have posted viable options to deal with him. Does it shift the meta a little? Yes. Just the same as many powerful Pokemon before him. While I think that this thread is constructive, I also think a majority of the people voting yes are doing so just because they don't want to adapt their teams to deal with him. Just because you don't want to deal with something doesn't mean that it should be banned.

 

[TROP]

Right, but the main complaint is that perish trapping with it on that specific 'mon is broken right? I don't see how it's like banning "sand stream+pursuit" if that's not an actual broken combination. It seems like a safer way of doing things and it's not like it would be impossible to change the ban (either removing it or banning mega-gar entirely if it's needed).

What part of only one mon gets the combo you don't understand? Also, only users that have not played against good Mega Gengar players(judging by their comments) think the only broken set is the perish trap set; look at previous pages for examples of why that is not the case and/or use the set Marth posted.

 

[farranpoison]

People saying "Yo I have no problem with MGengar" is nothing but anecdotal evidence. They give no hard facts or anything to say that MGengar is not broken. Personal experience by word of mouth only makes no difference to this discussion.

Instead, try and focus on the facts. MGengar has Shadow tag, which basically guarantees no counters. It's not just "OMG SHADOW TAG QQ" but facts. With Shadow tag, you CANNOT switch in a counter to MGengar. And even if you do on the first turn before in MEvos, MGengar (if played by someone with an actual brain) will not stay in. It's done its job of MEvoing without problem. Now it can switch out and wait until the perfect moment to pick off any mon that can't hurt it with no problem.

THIS is why people are afraid of MGengar. Not from stories of terrible MGengar users, but by the sheer potential MGengar has to KO opponents by the mere ability to pick and choose its fights.

 

[nyczxjay]

I'm curious to know how many people in the Pro-OU crowd have actually played in the Pokebank OU metagame (where MegGar has access to Perish Song) or went up against someone who knows how to use MegGar effectively in the Pre-Pokebank OU metagame. I feel that people find MegGar underwhelming because 1) they haven't played against someone who actually knows how to use it and 2) they themselves are using it wrong (i.e. playing it like normal Gengar).

 

[BlowingBubbles]

Does he have counters? Yes.

Haven't we established that by the strict definition of the term counter, the only counter to him is to run shed shell on every pokemon that can't beat him 1-on-1?

 

[ownagepwnage]

Haven't we established that by the strict definition of the term counter, the only counter to him is to run shed shell on every pokemon that can't beat him 1-on-1?

Ghost types (such as the common Aegislash and Trevenant) and practically any pokemon with u-turn or volt switch (Rotom-A and Scizor)

 

[Halcyon.]

Ghost types (such as the common Aegislash and Trevenant) and practically any pokemon with u-turn or volt switch (Rotom-A and Scizor)

Please explain to me how Gourgeist or Aegislash counter Gengar. Last time I checked, they were weak to Shadow Ball .-. yes they can switch out, but that doesn't mean they're counters at all.

U-turn and Volt Switch can be Disabled with Protect + Disable, so that's not necessarily a guaranteed way to escape either.

 

[20comer]

I may not be as experienced or known as some people here, but in my opinion the issue about Mega Gengar is how it alone makes the metagame more offensive. You can't really even think of using anything near stall as long as something can come in, trap and KO you, destroying your offensive core and making you prone to powerful sweepers. Of course you have a turn to switch out, but Gengar can switch out after it mega-evolves too, you unless you send out Pursuit Tyranitar or Spiritomb, which are not in every team. Unless they are Choice Banded, Gengar can actually survive a Pursuit while it switches out if it burns them as they come in or get a sub to switch safely/attack, so they also aren't safe checks. Also, once Gengar mega-evolves, you are already at a disadvantage if you don't have a Mega Gengar as well. Your opponent can wear your team down easily and open holes in it freely, given its great movepool (can defeat anything it really wants to), and it can simply switch out once you send out something that can wall it. MGengar is also not limited to Perish Song sets. Gengar can run an attack for everything it wants to defeat. It can use Hidden Power Ice if it wants to go through Landorus and Gliscor, Sludge Wave to defeat Fairies and some uncommon Grass-Types, Thunderbolt to defeat Skarmory and Talonflame if Gengar can get in at full health (Volturn can be very useful) and even the rare Will-O-Wisp to cripple physically-based Walls and make it easier for set-up sweepers to wreck havoc.
I'm not saying it should be quickbanned or that it is broken, but it certainly should be tested.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Because the prospect of quick banning a pokemon which so many people don't have trouble with seems absurd to some people, so these people joined the forums to voice their opinions on the matter.

I typed this very long, descriptive comment as to why this was one of the most ignorant comments in the thread, but...I read what you said here:

Ghost types (such as the common Aegislash and Trevenant) and practically any pokemon with u-turn or volt switch (Rotom-A and Scizor)

...you know what? That's more like it. That's a very true part of the meta that people sometimes forget: VolTurn. It's a means of escape for Scizor and Rotom, with Ghost-Types being able to avoid the threat entirely. They're the only things that could escape outside of Shed Shell users.
Just one issue: How are these "Counters?" ProtectDisable can stop the moves, so...how would they escape then, especially if they're Choice Locked?

 

[Clankenator007]

I won't deny that Mega-Gengar could be broken but with pokebank coming out in just a few weeks I don't see why we are banning anything yet. OU is a temporary metagame about to become something potentially completely different. No generation has ever not had mons that needed to be banned, and 6th gen won't be different. The problem is that we aren't playing 6th gen yet, we are playing generation 5.9. We should just wait a few weeks (it's not like Mega Gengar is making the game completely unplayable) and go through the whole glorious process of suspect testing once we know what we are really dealing with.

 

[Fuzznip]

I won't deny that Mega-Gengar could be broken but with pokebank coming out in just a few weeks I don't see why we are banning anything yet. OU is a temporary metagame about to become something potentially completely different. No generation has ever not had mons that needed to be banned, and 6th gen won't be different. The problem is that we aren't playing 6th gen yet, we are playing generation 5.9. We should just wait a few weeks (it's not like Mega Gengar is making the game completely unplayable) and go through the whole glorious process of suspect testing once we know what we are really dealing with.

The thing is, we already know what we are dealing with. Pokebank is not going to change anything. In fact, Gengar will dominate even more, now being able to trap and kill a plethora of additional Pokemon, such as Jirachi, Heatran, Latias, and Celebi, among dozens of others. We already have a Pokebank ladder that isn't totally inaccurate to what the real metagame will look like given new egg moves/abilities/typings/etc, but Gengar will continue to effortlessly take advantage of dozens and dozens of threats with Shadow Tag and its high offensive prowess. It will even be able to run Pain Split, Perish Song, and Sludge Wave, an even stronger STAB attack that stops Chesnaught from walling it now.

If anything, the OU council can always re-examine quickbanned Pokemon once Pokebank is released and details are finalized. But nothing will change Gengar's game-breaking team support.

 

[newtonja]

I won't deny that Mega-Gengar could be broken but with pokebank coming out in just a few weeks I don't see why we are banning anything yet. OU is a temporary metagame about to become something potentially completely different. No generation has ever not had mons that needed to be banned, and 6th gen won't be different. The problem is that we aren't playing 6th gen yet, we are playing generation 5.9. We should just wait a few weeks (it's not like Mega Gengar is making the game completely unplayable) and go through the whole glorious process of suspect testing once we know what we are really dealing with.

I might be wrong but I am almost sure that no bans will happen for a couple of months (besides the obvious quick ban ones) I think this is just to get a feel for what the community thinks about mega gengar, i'm not sure but I think that is what is .

 

[gr8astard]

I’m actually very surprised that the majority of voters want Mega Gengar to stay OU. A lot of people have already pointed out what makes Mega Gengar broken. Between its attacking set and perish trapping as well as a multitude of other support moves in its arsenal, Mega Gengar has no difficulty whatsoever in removing opposing Pokemon out of the game, multiple times. How is it ever ok for a trapper with 170 base SpA and 130 speed—which allows it to outspeed and trap up to +1 Jolly base 70 and neutral-natured base 81 (scarf Ttar lol)—to roam around in OU? Also, how is a base 170 SpA considered weak? Because it is weaker than a LO Gengar, or because people have been using it poorly?

Mega Gengar does exactly what it needs to do, trapping and finishing off or crippling foes with its STAB and coverage moves (pretty much the majority of Psychic, Fairy, Grass types etc) or support moves (Perish Song, Pain Split, Destiny Bond, Will-o-wisp, Disable, Taunt, Substitute, Hypnosis), and that is inherently uncompetitive. The game is getting more and more matchup dependent with the introduction of new Pokemon each generation, and Mega Gengar only serves to worsen this issue. Often times all a team needs to do in order to win is remove one key Pokemon from the opposing team, and Mega Gengar provides just that, in a very easy and cheap manner. Back in BW2, people were willing to expend a team slot on the piece of crap called Gothitelle, a Pokemon with inferior speed and power even with a Scarf or Specs to Mega Gengar. Yet it is often times deemed worthy of a slot just because of its ability to trap ONE Pokemon, often in exchange for itself. Now in Mega Gengar we have a Pokemon that is not only faster and stronger without a choice item, but it also possess better STABs and resistances than Gothitelle, which I think more than makes up for its lack of bulk compared to Gothitelle (literally the only things Gothitelle can freely switch into are weaker fighting moves or walls with no offensive presence whatsoever). The impact MGengar has on the game will be more apparent when people finally realize what works best in XY, what cores to use etc—at which point MGengar will be the ultimate go-to utility Pokemon, as whatever your core can’t handle will be handily eliminated by it.

In addition, as others have pointed out before me, its unpredictability and myriad of support movepool allow it to trap such a diverse range of Pokemon, and when well played, more than once. There is no counter to this Pokemon as nothing stops it from doing its job (and even if you think you have a Pokemon that counters MGengar, chances are it has a way to dent or severely cripple you in the process), that is eliminating the things it can kill as it chooses, with minimal team support. It doesn’t matter whether you have a Pokemon that MGengar can’t touch unless it prevents MGengar from doing its job, and even if you have the means to kill MGengar it doesn’t mean that you will, as unlike you who can’t double switch, MGengar can simply retreat and wreak more havoc later. All common pursuit users including scarf Tyranitar and Scizor, and even Weavile are outsped and can be killed or severely crippled by Will-o-wisp, and thus eliminating it still requires an element of prediction.

I also find comparisons to other trappers silly. I can’t comment on Chandelure as I have never played DW in BW (even though I’m still convinced Gengar is superior to it), but most trappers we know are either too slow (Magnezone), too weak (Dugtrio), or both (Gothitelle), not to mention the former two can only trap very specific things. As Badabing has pointed out before, this thing is an “unprecedented forced kill machine.” It traps 90% of the game with minimal support such as volturn, finishing off any weakened walls or offense Pokemon that are slower than it, thus severely restricting the team building process in this generation. Ban this abomination.

 

[TROP]

I won't deny that Mega-Gengar could be broken but with pokebank coming out in just a few weeks I don't see why we are banning anything yet. OU is a temporary metagame about to become something potentially completely different. No generation has ever not had mons that needed to be banned, and 6th gen won't be different. The problem is that we aren't playing 6th gen yet, we are playing generation 5.9. We should just wait a few weeks (it's not like Mega Gengar is making the game completely unplayable) and go through the whole glorious process of suspect testing once we know what we are really dealing with.

Pokebank will only change a few things we know so far:

• stat changes for mostly irrelevant to OU mons that won't matter until UU/RU/NU are made
• A few potential egg moves, that except for maybe Goodra getting recover, won't really change a thing.
• Non in XY mons getting a few new level upmoves. Only major ones I can remember are Tornadus apparently getting Aeroblast and Entei with Sacred Fire(only really relevant for the ones of us that like to play RU sometimes), both of them hinted/confirmed by the maison(or just ai cheating which is also likely).

None of these look like something that would make Gengar easier to stop or slightly less effective at what it does.

And PGL pretty much confirmed nothing else is getting fairy-type. This should be obvious after a mon with everything moon related(Cresselia) didn't get it, but still listing it for those that don't know that.

 

[Thorhammer]

People saying "Yo I have no problem with MGengar" is nothing but anecdotal evidence. They give no hard facts or anything to say that MGengar is not broken. Personal experience by word of mouth only makes no difference to this discussion.

Instead, try and focus on the facts. MGengar has Shadow tag, which basically guarantees no counters. It's not just "OMG SHADOW TAG QQ" but facts. With Shadow tag, you CANNOT switch in a counter to MGengar. And even if you do on the first turn before in MEvos, MGengar (if played by someone with an actual brain) will not stay in. It's done its job of MEvoing without problem. Now it can switch out and wait until the perfect moment to pick off any mon that can't hurt it with no problem.

THIS is why people are afraid of MGengar. Not from stories of terrible MGengar users, but by the sheer potential MGengar has to KO opponents by the mere ability to pick and choose its fights.

Remember, "counters" are a bit of an outdated concept. Teams don't expect to be able to outright counter a foe; they simply deal with it by whatever means they have available. And if you're trapped, fleeing is not an available means. That's how it's been for as long as we've had Pursuit and abilities like Arena Trap and Magnet Pull.

 

[AuguryOfRuin]

THIS is why people are afraid of MGengar. Not from stories of terrible MGengar users, but by the sheer potential MGengar has to KO opponents by the mere ability to pick and choose its fights.

Again, this is just like any other trapper. It sits and lurks in your team untill it finds its prey, traps it and kills it, before dying itself. You cannot switch in a counter on dugtrio? you cannot do it on gothitelle either? He does the same job as the other trappers, just in a different way. Yes its stronger than the other trappers but you cannot claim it doesn't do the same thing as any other trapper: It comes into what it wants to kill and kills it. Anything after that is just a plus. But again, quick ban is just not justified. I'm fine with Mengar going into suspect testing after the dust has settled in, but its not like Mega Blaziken whom sweeps an entire team by itself and if it can't kill something it just gives its boosts to another thing. That's worthy of a quick ban, but Mengar is not. Leave him for the suspect testing as I have suggested, its the best way to disguss this matter.

 

[Edgar81539]

Again, this is just like any other trapper. It sits and lurks in your team untill it finds its prey, traps it and kills it, before dying itself. You cannot switch in a counter on dugtrio? you cannot do it on gothitelle either? He does the same job as the other trappers, just in a different way. Yes its stronger than the other trappers but you cannot claim it doesn't do the same thing as any other trapper: It comes into what it wants to kill and kills it. Anything after that is just a plus. But again, quick ban is just not justified. I'm fine with Mengar going into suspect testing after the dust has settled in, but its not like Mega Blaziken whom sweeps an entire team by itself and if it can't kill something it just gives its boosts to another thing. That's worthy of a quick ban, but Mengar is not. Leave him for the suspect testing as I have suggested, its the best way to disguss this matter.

I couln't say it better. Leave him alone until Pokebank comes out and we can see what he can do with his full movepool, because right now, we're just theorymoning.

 

[farranpoison]

Again, this is just like any other trapper. It sits and lurks in your team untill it finds its prey, traps it and kills it, before dying itself. You cannot switch in a counter on dugtrio? you cannot do it on gothitelle either? He does the same job as the other trappers, just in a different way. Yes its stronger than the other trappers but you cannot claim it doesn't do the same thing as any other trapper: It comes into what it wants to kill and kills it. Anything after that is just a plus. But again, quick ban is just not justified. I'm fine with Mengar going into suspect testing after the dust has settled in, but its not like Mega Blaziken whom sweeps an entire team by itself and if it can't kill something it just gives its boosts to another thing. That's worthy of a quick ban, but Mengar is not. Leave him for the suspect testing as I have suggested, its the best way to disguss this matter.

Again, this also has been discussed. Dugtrio can't trap a good amount of mons (flyers/levitate) and isn't that strong. Gothitelle can trap anything, but seriously, its mediocre stats is what is keeping it down. MGengar has amazing power and the ability to pretty much disrupt/kill anything it deems worthy enough to do so.

Now, I am not saying OMG QUICK BAN. I am pointing out why he's better than other trappers. I do not believe that he warrants a quick ban, but I do believe, given his strengths and Shadow Tag, that he will be found worthy of a ban in the future.