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Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

Do you think that Gengarite should be banned from OU?


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As far as I'm concerned, there's virtually no argument that this thing isn't broken. It pairs well with volt-turn cores and can trap and kill virtually anything mid game. It takes 0 skill to hit volt switch on Rotom-w then trap and kill a counter such as Latios. How is this fair? Yes its frail, yes its easily killed. But any player with half a brain is capable of abusing shadow tag in a disgusting manner.

TL;DR

Gengarnite takes no skill to use and makes kill pokemon easily with virtually nothing the opposing player can do. Ban.
 
You can't deny the fact that mega Gengar is really good but it's not Uber. It packs blazing speed and a great ability but is still weaker then regular Gengar packing a life orb so it still can be beaten one on one. Additionally, Mega Gengar is still very frail and will die from many attacks. The loss of levitate also makes Gengar easily OHKO'd by ground type moves. Also, Mega Gengar isn't over-centralizing the metagame. It's not like Mega Gengar is on most teams and you need a counter for it. For these reasons, Gengarite should stay in the OU tier.

Edit: So, if we were judging pokemon on how easy they are to use, then how in the world would Dragonite still be OU? With Multiscale and the slightest support to remove Ice Shard users, it can easily sweep now more then ever thanks to weakness policy. For reasons like this, the "easy to use" argument is invalid.
 
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It takes 0 skill to hit volt switch on Rotom-w then trap and kill a counter such as Latios.
You better pray that thing is not Choice Scarfed...

I think it's worth noting that most Pokémon that are weak to Ghost are also weak to Dark. It's not like Latios wasn't susceptible to being Pursuit-trapped even before Mega Gengar existed...
 
You can't deny the fact that mega Gengar is really good but it's not Uber. It packs blazing speed and a great ability but is still weaker then regular Gengar packing a life orb so it still can be beaten one on one. Additionally, Mega Gengar is still very frail and will die from many attacks. The loss of levitate also makes Gengar easily OHKO'd by ground type moves. Also, Mega Gengar isn't over-centralizing the metagame. It's not like Mega Gengar is on most teams and you need a counter for it. For these reasons, Gengarite should stay in the OU tier.

Edit: So, if we were judging pokemon on how easy they are to use, then how in the world would Dragonite still be OU? With Multiscale and the slightest support to remove Ice Shard users, it can easily sweep now more then ever thanks to weakness policy. For reasons like this, the "easy to use" argument is invalid.

The end bit of your post is irrelevant. Gengar being frail really isn't the point, any half decent user won't try and tank hits with Gengar and is only going to abuse shadow tag on mons which are helpless to do anything weather they be weak to gengar's attacks or need to be removed from the game in order to win the game through the bullshit use of perish song.

You better pray that thing is not Choice Scarfed...

I think it's worth noting that most Pokémon that are weak to Ghost are also weak to Dark. It's not like Latios wasn't susceptible to being Pursuit-trapped even before Mega Gengar existed...

Christ, sorry for suggesting latios. Ghost has amazing coverage and gengar can pick off or kill outright many offensive threats with nothing the opposing player can do about this.
 
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You can't deny the fact that mega Gengar is really good but it's not Uber. It packs blazing speed and a great ability but is still weaker then regular Gengar packing a life orb so it still can be beaten one on one. Additionally, Mega Gengar is still very frail and will die from many attacks. The loss of levitate also makes Gengar easily OHKO'd by ground type moves. Also, Mega Gengar isn't over-centralizing the metagame. It's not like Mega Gengar is on most teams and you need a counter for it. For these reasons, Gengarite should stay in the OU tier.

Edit: So, if we were judging pokemon on how easy they are to use, then how in the world would Dragonite still be OU? With Multiscale and the slightest support to remove Ice Shard users, it can easily sweep now more then ever thanks to weakness policy. For reasons like this, the "easy to use" argument is invalid.

We are NOT judging how Mega Gengar performs as a Sweeper! It isn't a Sweeper, and nobody has argued that it is. Sure, Mega Gengar is frail. It's also incredibly fast, incredibly powerful, contains a move pool that can allow it to be perfectly customized to whatever you want it to kill, and it stops opponents from running away.

It's not "how easy it is to use", but rather "how easy it is to set up your team perfectly". Nothing can stop Mega Gengar from killing the Pokémon that it wants to destroy, and when it does so, that is usually all it needs to win a match. It is broken for a single Pokémon to be able to assassinate 90% of the metagame with no chance for counter play. Period.
 
Props to Ajwf for very thoroughly responding to a good portion of the stronger anti-ban arguments. At this point it gets a little over my head in terms of my own expertise, so I'll leave it up to Zracknel and other anti-ban posters to rebut, if possible. In talented hands, M-Gengar certainly seems to approach uber support status, and I don't know if there are enough threats to M-Gengar (which are also threats to the sweeper that M-Gengar is trying to support) that players could load their team with them and not call that an overcentralizing force. And this is coming from someone who initially felt a quick ban was hasty. Any thoughts on this? Is it possible to build teams that are solid all-around and still have several mons that make M-Gengar think twice about switching in?

And not to belabor a minor point, but...

I think it's interesting to look at the poll results. Yes, it's still leaning in anti-ban's favor. However, ~5 days ago the poll was 52.5% to 47.5%. The last ~500 votes have shifted the balanced to 50.4% to 49.6%. If you know anything about stats, that's a big difference considering how large the number of votes already was. It shows that lately, more have been pro-ban than against. I think it's safe to say that all of the solid pro-ban arguments in this thread have shifted recent voters' minds.

I realize that the thread poll may not mean much, but your interpretation could not be more incorrect, and I don't think it'd be fair to let your assertion stand unchallenged. As a career statistician, I've seen this kind of misinterpretation sway people's minds unfairly. A minute's worth of number crunching shows that it would only take a 54%-46% vote (favoring ban) across the last ~550 votes to create the changes you listed (roughly from 525-475, to 776-771). That thin spread in numbers does not make your conclusion "safe to say" by any means, whether pragmatic ("eyeballing it") or statistical. Of course, just to be clear, it would be just as meaningless to say "anti-ban is winning by 5 votes!" when in reality the poll is in a dead heat.
 
You can't deny the fact that mega Gengar is really good but it's not Uber. It packs blazing speed and a great ability but is still weaker then regular Gengar packing a life orb so it still can be beaten one on one. Additionally, Mega Gengar is still very frail and will die from many attacks. The loss of levitate also makes Gengar easily OHKO'd by ground type moves. Also, Mega Gengar isn't over-centralizing the metagame. It's not like Mega Gengar is on most teams and you need a counter for it. For these reasons, Gengarite should stay in the OU tier.

Edit: So, if we were judging pokemon on how easy they are to use, then how in the world would Dragonite still be OU? With Multiscale and the slightest support to remove Ice Shard users, it can easily sweep now more then ever thanks to weakness policy. For reasons like this, the "easy to use" argument is invalid.
Total mentions of Shadow Tag in this post: 0

What's the point of saying it's not broken when you don't even mention the broken part of it? That's like saying "Blaziken isn't broken, Fire/Fighting is only a decent STAB combination and its stats aren't even that great."

Anyway, I think the poll is rather biased because it isn't obviously broken to the average ladder player, and on top of that, the first few posts are almost all anti-ban, so if you just vote right away without even reading the thread, you are much more likely to vote anti-ban.
 
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Instead of a long conversation, I will use a very short summary: doing what you just said, MGengar is already evolved. Opponent brings out fire type, you retreat Chestnuaght, Gengar comes in, kills challenger because he can't escape now, Chestnaught comes back in, Mgengar is already being pulled out for the fire type you wished to kill. You can't use phazing to protect your team from MGengar unless EVERY MEMEBER OF YOUR TEAM has it. Trying to argue that one phaser on your team protects it from MGengar is absurd because as soon as the phazer is forced out, Gengar can step in, trap and kill whatever it wants.
Chesnaught is not a counter. Phazing is not a counter, unless you can start dragging it over hazards. Chesnaught isn't even a check. The scout/phazer is there to scout, and if it sees a setup mon to get them the hell out of there before they can set up. This just happens to also apply to MGengar. And once you know what MGengar is trying to hit you can play around it with prediction and mindgames. The problem is not knowing what it wants to hit, which leads to losing a Pokémon to bad prediction.

They go to switch out to something that can take out Chesnaught, but get re-switched by Chesnaught Roaring them for the sake of caution. Or you now know what they're going to target with Mega Gengar. They are, as you said, going to switch to whatever hits Chesnaught, then switch back to MGengar. So just switch in whatever annihilates that MGengar set, because on a Stall team there's bound to be Prankster Taunt/etc. to stop setups and Baton Pass. You can run a Pursuit trapper with Taunt, too. Infiltrator Crobat with Focus Sash and running Pursuit and Taunt laughs in its face.

That said, if Perish Song + Shadow Tag is such a problem, banning Perish Song + Gengarite is not really such a big deal in my opinion.

All in all, I think there are a number of ways to mess up an MGengar once you know what it's running, with correct prediction, even if you are running defensive/stall. It's possible that it might still become over-centralising, but I think a suspect test is necessary, and that one more month of MGengar existing before tests can be run won't be a major problem in the long term.
 
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Chesnaught is not a counter. Phazing is not a counter, unless you can start dragging it over hazards. Chesnaught isn't even a check. The scout/phazer is there to scout, and if it sees a setup mon to get them the hell out of there before they can set up. This just happens to also apply to MGengar. And once you know what MGengar is trying to hit you can play around it with prediction and mindgames. The problem is not knowing what it wants to hit, which leads to losing a Pokémon to bad prediction.

They go to switch out to something that can take out Chesnaught, but get re-switched by Chesnaught Roaring them for the sake of caution. Or you now know what they're going to target with Mega Gengar. They are, as you said, going to switch to whatever hits Chesnaught, then switch back to MGengar. So just switch in whatever annihilates that MGengar set, because on a Stall team there's bound to be Prankster Taunt/etc. to stop setups and Baton Pass. You can run a Pursuit trapper with Taunt, too. Infiltrator Crobat Focus sash with Pursuit and Taunt laughs in its face.

That said, if Perish Song + Shadow Tag is such a problem, banning Perish Song + Gengarite is not really such a big deal in my opinion.

What part of "Shadow Tag" don't you get? If you have time to spot what Mega-Gengar is running, you CANNOT pull Chesnaught out. And Chesnaught has neither the stats nor move pool to stop Mega-Gengar one on one. You're hoping for Roar to force out Mega-Gengar? You probably will get to scout out a single move, because that's all Mega-Gengar will need for your single threat, and that still likely won't tell you which target Mega-Gengar wants to kill, since a lot of Mega-Gengars will probably have moves that can eliminate Chesnaught on any set they run. And that's if Mega-Gengar doesn't decide to just switch out because Chesnaught is not its target, and it doesn't care about even trying to take it on. Chesnaught can't stand up to most sweepers, so why would Mega-Gengar even want to stay in to kill it? Which it could do easily, at the cost of only revealing a single move of four that it carries.

Also, since Mega-Gengar is the only Shadow Tag + Perish Song user, that makes it a complex ban that can only be used by a single Pokémon, it's an unnecessary complex ban that should result in just banning Gengarite. Otherwise, why not ban other Pokémon move combinations to keep them OU? Make an Attack Deoxys that can only run support moves, or moves with 40 or below Base Power. Suddenly, Deoxys is OU territory, right?

And, once again, Perish Song is not the most devastating set that Mega-Gengar runs. Destiny Bond + three attacks stops threats to a lot more teams than Perish Song + Shadow Tag, which is only really useful for certain tanks.
 
No, I meant get the setup mon out. That's why he's running a phazing move, hence why it's called phazing. Your scout/phazer is assumed to be bulky enough to take a neutral hit at +1/+2 from those Pokémon that bother to setup sweep, or to have Sturdy/Focus Sash if it can't. The fact that he can also use a phazing move to force MGengar out, thus allowing him to scout MGengar, is simply a good application of an already-existing set.

Perish Song trapping may not be its most devastating set, but without that option MGengar can be walled. Removing that one move from its options gives MGengar available checks that don't require a scout/phazer.
 
FlameUser64
Besides the fact that Technician Pursuit from the likes of 0 Atk Scizor (which is about as strong as Crobat's) doesn't even come close to KOing MGengar on switch, I'm guessing Crobat doesn't fare any better.

And, working from this, Gengar has nothing to fear from Crobat and can thus switch out fearless. And unless you can predict a double switch to MGengar, you're not switching in unless you have Shed Shell on whatever was in prior to the switch to Crobat due Shadow Tag. And if it was a Physical wall that you were saving from MGengar, chances are it's likely an offensive variant, so if you are able to switch in due Shed Shell, you have to take a hit. And then your Sash is broken. Next time, Crobat is dead. And then what?

Complex bans are a slippery slope, as that will lead to headaches if applied on a large scale (E.g. Blaze Blaziken is allowed but SB Blaziken isn't, SV Chomp is banned, but Rough Skin Chomp is not etc).

As a side note, I have to say that, at this point, discussing is pointless (said by some already), as there is nothing else left to say. People on the fence should just read through and take a stance, if any at all, nothing new is going to be said anyway.

Edit: Ninja'd by Skyblade
CavemanCossy
Thing is, the ability itself got banned, not a complex ban like "Mon+SV/SC is banned" or "Sand Stream + Sand Veil is banned".
 
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FlameUser64
Complex bans are a slippery slope, as that will lead to headaches if applied on a large scale (E.g. Blaze Blaziken is allowed but SB Blaziken isn't, SV Chomp is banned, but Rough Skin Chomp is not etc).
It's not like it hasn't been done. Last gen, Snow Cloak and Sand Veil got banned, which made Garchomp OU and prevented Frosslass from abusing Hail and getting lucky
 
No, I meant get the setup mon out. That's why he's running a phazing move, hence why it's called phazing. Your scout/phazer is assumed to be bulky enough to take a neutral hit at +1/+2 from those Pokémon that bother to setup sweep, or to have Sturdy/Focus Sash if it can't. The fact that he can also use a phazing move to force MGengar out, thus allowing him to scout MGengar, is simply a good application of an already-existing set.

Got you, I misunderstood.

I still don't think it helps. What are the calculations of Chesnaught vs Sludge Wave or Psychic?

And if you are running a 3 Attack + Destiny Bond set, then Gengar has multiple moves it can wield depending on its target. Spotting the one it chooses to employ for Chesnaught is not necessarily helpful for spotting what it does against your team. Also, if you do know what Mega Gengar is going to kill, so what? How do you propose to stop it? Never send out that wall or counter? That disables it just as assuredly as KOing it with Mega Gengar, so the objective is still secure. If you send it out, Mega Gengar will kill it, especially since you phazed out its one-turn of no Shadow Tag.

And, again, Mega Gengar is a Sniper. It doesn't face anything it doesn't want to. So your scout won't catch it unless the Mega Gengar player actually wants your Chesnaught dead (in which case, your Chesnaught is dead). And the victory condition is then assured.

No, Perish Song trapping may not be its most devastating set, but without that option MGengar can be walled. Removing that one move from its options gives MGengar available checks that don't require a scout/phazer.

And, again, opens up a bad precedent for complex bans just to make a broken Pokémon OU. Not to mention, it only really allows walling by a very small, dedicated group of Pokémon, as a ton of them will still fall to Mega-Gengar. So everyone now has to run a wall that it can only threaten via Perish Song, or they'll get destroyed. Not only, that wall also has to be one capable of stopping the Mega-Gengar team's sweeper, which is not necessarily the case. This will clearly result in an over centralized metagame.
 
Please no discussion of complex bans, we're not going to make any ban of Pokémon+move or Pokémon+ability.

CavemanCossy, you're wrong. In B/W we banned Sand Veil/Snow Cloak as a whole, not in conjunction with a particular Pokémon.

Oh, also, nobody is questioning that Mega Gengar can be walled, in fact it can be stopped by several Pokémon depending on the set it runs. The problem with Mega Gengar is that, in common battle conditions, you're usually able to "wall" it only after it has already accomplished its task of removing a key Pokémon on your team and that's why we're having this discussion.
 
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1.) M. Gengar uses Levitate.
2.) The meta evolves much less around hazards than last gen. M.G has problems to reliably kill enemies with 1 blow
3.) M.G takes a turn to evolve and make use of Shadow Tag combined with 1.) it's easy to force him out and set up (non song set)
4.) Shadow Tag is less powerfull than last gen.
5.) In order to use song, he actually has to survive a blow.


I get why he is considered frightening, then however I also see what he looses by mega-evolving.


In my opinion a ban would be ahead of time.
Let's talk about it in a month or two.
Okay, I'm gonna try and refute each of your points one by one.
1) Mega Gengar uses the Levitate to get the free switch in if possible.
2) You say that Mega Gengar has trouble killing enemies; with the right moves he can super effectively OHKO pokemon. Now you're gonna say; he can't run 257 moves to destroy the whole OU metagame. That's not Mega Gengar's role. Mega Gengar's role is to see your team, look at what troubles it and take those pokemon down. So Mega Gengar will switch into those pokemon that need to be taken down and will kill them within one blow with the super effective hit.
3) I feel like we really shouldn't discuss this because then we'll all start bringing up examples of situation stuff that no one enjoys. But just to refute: So what if Mega Gengar takes a turn to mega evolve? Let's say you decide to switch into your Pursuit user, either Tyranitar of Scizor. I can easily predict that as well. So now you're stuck in the tough spot of keeping in your wall that you have to save or switching in your Tyranitar or Scizor and taking a blow so I can hit you again next turn either a. killing you or b. giving you so much damage you can't do anything else except to be death fodder.
4) If your going to argue this, please give reasons and explanations. As it is now, I have to guess at what you're trying to say or talk about something else completely. But Shadow Tag imo is still OP. It takes out any skill, trapping that wall, so you can only switch out with a Ghost, which are uncommon believe it or not, not all of them are viable, or with Volt-Turn. Volt-Turn is always a threat of course, but Shadow Tag still traps and takes out the things it needs to.
5) The Perish Song set is commonly used when you have trouble with stall teams and you need something to rip them apart. And most stall teams don't hit hard enough, and rely on the super effective hit or the poison damage, or the hazards. So Mega Gengar can easily take the neutral hit (Mega Gengar is still bulky enough, it can take Brave Bird from Talonflame, and BP from CB Scizor) and use Perish Song. Or if the pokemon is really shit weak, set up a Sub to take the hit, use Perish Song, and then you can Protect / use Sub again to stall them out.

Also, on a side note. You only have that one window of opportunity before Mega Gengar Mega evolves, before it IS mega gengar for the rest of the match. Hopefully my points are clear and that you can at least see for a little more that Mega Gengar has too much of dat powa for OU. I say that we should quick ban Mega Gengar.

(On a second side note, just in case you say that Mega Gengar has to take a hit while switching in as well, I can just use a really powerful 252 Hp / 252 Atk CB Scizor U-Turn to tank a hit before switching into Mega Gengar to only take one neutral hit or use a Sub.)
 
It's not like Chesnaught is the only scout/phazer in existence; Skarmory, for example can run scout/phazer as well, but most likely not against MGengar; Vaporeon has amazing SpD and can run scout/phazer, as well. You do bring up a good point in that MGengar may simply leave when Chesnaught, or whatever other scout/phazer you're using, shows up. This is especially problematic if scout/phazer sets see common usage.

There will inevitably be something that can deal with a 3 attacks set, even if it does have perfect neutral coverage. If you're running stall/defence, you probably have multiple walls for both Special and Physical. If you're running offence then MGengar is too frail for most things that carry SE moves. As long as you can carry an SE move with Scarf or just high speed/a high-powered priority on something that isn't MGengar's intended target, you tie with your foe in a 1-1 trade and they lost their one counter to their team's biggest weakness.

Defeating an MGengar requires amazing prediction, but so does using one effectively.
 
It's not like Chesnaught is the only scout/phazer in existence; for one thing, Skarmory can run scout/phazer as well, but most likely not against MGengar. You do bring up a good point in that MGengar may simply leave when Chesnaught, or whatever other scout/phazer you're using, shows up. This is especially prob

There will inevitably be something that can deal with a 3 attacks set, even if it does have perfect neutral coverage. If you're running stall/defence, you probably have multiple walls for both Special and Physical. If you're running offence then MGengar is too frail for most things that carry SE moves. As long as you can carry an SE move with Scarf or just high speed/a high-powered priority on something that isn't MGengar's intended target, you tie with your foe in a 1-1 trade and they lost their one counter to their team's biggest weakness.

Defeating an MGengar requires amazing prediction, but so does using one effectively.

"Something that can deal with it" doesn't matter, because that "something" is not its target, and there is absolutely nothing drawing in Mega-Gengar until its target shows up. Even if you manage to draw it in (which probably means playing its target), you can't switch out because you scouted it and wasted the one turn of no Shadow Tag. So you can Revenge Kill it. With your wall dead, and your party set up to be swept.
 
It's not like Chesnaught is the only scout/phazer in existence; Skarmory, for example can run scout/phazer as well, but most likely not against MGengar; Vaporeon has amazing SpD and can run scout/phazer, as well. You do bring up a good point in that MGengar may simply leave when Chesnaught, or whatever other scout/phazer you're using, shows up. This is especially problematic if scout/phazer sets see common usage.

There will inevitably be something that can deal with a 3 attacks set, even if it does have perfect neutral coverage. If you're running stall/defence, you probably have multiple walls for both Special and Physical. If you're running offence then MGengar is too frail for most things that carry SE moves. As long as you can carry an SE move with Scarf or just high speed/a high-powered priority on something that isn't MGengar's intended target, you tie with your foe in a 1-1 trade and they lost their one counter to their team's biggest weakness.

Defeating an MGengar requires amazing prediction, but so does using one effectively.
Again, that depends on the TEAM of the player using Mega Gengar. I would only use Mega Gengar to fill gaps. If my team is weak to stall, I would use the Perish Trap set, if my team struggles more against offense, the 3 Atks + Destiny Bond set is more effective so I would use that. So if you were a stall player and I had a Mega Gengar with a team weak to offense, then my team would probably be up to the task of dealing with you while Mega Gengar would play a secondary role. However, if I was weak to stall, you would find yourself facing the Perish Trap set, which, any stall team has trouble against.
 
Let's get a couple things straight here:

1. Stop comparing Mega Gengar to anything else. Yes, other things have insane special offense. Yes, other things have Shadow Tag. But Mega Gengar is special in that it has both, which nothing else does.

2. There is no such thing as a Mega Gengar counter. It has checks yes but realistically you are not staying in on them unless they are Pursuiters, in which case they are not guaranteed to deal with Mega Gengar in the first place.

3. Don't assume Mega Gengar can only run four moves. It has like 10 useful moves depending on the set. Some people want Taunt, others might not. I prefer Substitute, a lot of people like Destiny Bond better. The standard attacks are Shadow Ball/Sludge Bomb/Focus Blast but nothing prevents you from using Thunderbolt or HP Fire/Ice.

That should save a lot of time for all of us if everyone keeps this in mind.
 
What I don't understand is why we aren't talking about Protect's role in all of this.

For MGengar to get off a Perish Trap it needs to 1) use Perish Song 2) Protect 3) Protect a second time in a row 4) Switch out to a "safe" pokemon

If MGengar is doing all 4 of these actions and you cannot cause sufficient damage to 1) kill gengar on the turn he Songs 2) kill gengar at the point there is a 50% chance you get a second attack on him 3) use a move on the pokemon he switches to that makes setting up to sweep 4) In the case of spamming sub instead of spamming protect the very fact you could have taunted him to prevent sub even if he were faster than you on the turn he songs (your opponent has to make a perfect prediction that you will either A) taunt him or B) attack him and either perish song or taunt that turn)... et cetera

If MGengar has Sub, Taunt, Protect, Perish Song he must correctly taunt to block your taunt on turn one, then song on turn two - but you're forced to attack him now anyway so he does damage this turn. Or, in the case of perish song on turn one and you taunt him, he can no longer protect/sub/taunt and has to switch out or take struggle damage on top of the damage you will cause him next turn... or you attack him when he perish songs anyway and receives that said damage... And really, if you have uturn/volt switch he can't stop you from switching out the turn he songs (and this forces him to switch out in 2 turns)... And really, if you have roar/whirlwind he also can't stop that, since protect no longer makes you immune... If you outspeed MGengar (like a Ninjask or something), you can also baton pass to a counter before he songs (or hell, after he songs, doesn't really make a difference).

There are numerous potential counter plays and your opponent needs to make perfect prediction in order to avoid them all.

Really, if you analyze the actual set of circumstances that have to occur for a Perish Trap to work without the MGengar/his team suffering a debilitating amount of damage that negates the loss of your pokemon... you will come to the conclusion this discussion is overblown and full of theory; theory that can only be properly debunked at this point with a suspect test.
 
Skyblade12
Predicting double switches. As I said, you have to predict an incoming MGengar and switch to your counter-pick simultaneously.

MoosyDoosy
Yeah, okay. That's what the scout/phazer is for, as it finds out what MGengar aims to counter, which also gives the scout/phaze player some information on the rest of your team's sets.

anubite
Actually, MGengar switches on the third Perish turn in order to not be KO'd by his own Perish Song, and the opponent can't switch because Shadow Tag is in effect. The way Shadow Tag works, it disallows the player from even choosing to switch, so you can't even elect to try to switch on the basis that MGengar will switch out. Now, if a patch was released by GAME FREAK/Nintendo that changed this to allow the player to choose to switch regardless of whether it will necessarily work, Perish Trap in singles would be finished.


I suppose I must agree, however, that MGengar's presence in a match vastly changes the pace and playstyle of the match on both sides, as letting it deploy successfully can be game-ending. I think, though, that there is a possibility that MGengar can be beneficial to the competitive scene. Yeah, okay, laugh all you like, but hear me out first:

MGengar is essentially the single most anti-meta thing ever to exist. If you want to survive/mess with teams running MGengar, you will have to run unpredictable sets. MGengar wants to snipe a foe with a particular role on the team, a particular set, but most often relies on the target's typing to do so. If you can run those same sets on the wrong Pokémon, MGengar's nicely customised moveset might turn out to be completely ineffective. MGengar can end up taking out a target Pokémon, only to be revenge-killed and then find out that that Pokémon wasn't running the set Gengar wanted to counter, but a different Pokémon on the team was. Pokémon that fill a particular role with an unusual typing but end up UU/RU/NU due to being "suboptimal" in that role can suddenly become OU-viable because MGengar fails to predict them. If this tactic is sufficiently successful, MGengar will see less usage while at the same time the tactic becomes universal; the relative "suboptimal" nature of these sets ceases to matter as many different Pokémon see common distribution because MGengar cannot predict this many different viable sets. The previous domination of a few select Pokémon due to their stats and relative comparison to "other Pokémon in the metagame" ceases to exist as that list includes 200+ Pokémon.

TL;DR version: Mega Gengar encourages people to use obscure Pokémon from other tiers, which in turn encourage even more obscure Pokémon to be used. Smogon OU collapses in a fairly spectacular manner, and Mega Gengar ceases to be an overpowering threat as its success depends on there being a very limited number of "viable" counters to any particular core. Not as likely as I wish it was, but still possible.
 
What I don't understand is why we aren't talking about Protect's role in all of this.

For MGengar to get off a Perish Trap it needs to 1) use Perish Song 2) Protect 3) Protect a second time in a row Or, Mengar could Substitute instead of relying on a 50/50 4) Switch out to a "safe" pokemon Considering that the opponent cannot switch, of course the Pokémon Mengar switches with will be safe since no smart player would switch in something that would be significantly hurt that one turn the opponent's Pokémon is still alive.

If MGengar is doing all 4 of these actions and you cannot cause sufficient damage to 1) kill gengar on the turn he Songs 2) kill gengar at the point there is a 50% chance you get a second attack on him 3) use a move on the pokemon he switches to that makes setting up to sweep 4) In the case of spamming sub instead of spamming protect the very fact you could have taunted him to prevent sub even if he were faster than you on the turn he songs (your opponent has to make a perfect prediction that you will either A) taunt him or B) attack him and either perish song or taunt that turn)... et cetera This is entirely situational, and an unlikely situation at that. Perish Mengar is not going to come in on something that can either kill or taunt it. And even if you bring in something that threatens it the turn when Gengar hasn't Mega Evolved yet, Mengar still has the freedom to switch out while you don't. This situation insults the intelligence of the opponent.

If MGengar has Sub, Taunt, Protect, Perish Song he must correctly taunt to block your taunt on turn one, then song on turn two - but you're forced to attack him now anyway so he does damage this turn. Again, Mengar is not coming in on something that will taunt or threaten it. Or, in the case of perish song on turn one and you taunt him, he can no longer protect/sub/taunt and has to switch out or take struggle damage on top of the damage you will cause him next turn... or you attack him when he perish songs anyway and receives that said damage... And really, if you have uturn/volt switch he can't stop you from switching out the turn he songs (and this forces him to switch out in 2 turns)... And really, if you have roar/whirlwind he also can't stop that, since protect no longer makes you immune... If you outspeed MGengar (like a Ninjask or something), you can also baton pass to a counter before he songs (or hell, after he songs, doesn't really make a difference).

There are numerous potential counter plays and your opponent needs to make perfect prediction in order to avoid them all. There is NO such thing as a counter since you can't switch out of Mengar. You can check it, at best. But even then, Mengar is simply going to say "bye" and bring in a counter to your check. Or, alternatively, if Mengar's job is done, it'll go down and the player won't care since Mengar most likely set up a sweep.

Really, if you analyze the actual set of circumstances that have to occur for a Perish Trap to work without the MGengar/his team suffering a debilitating amount of damage that negates the loss of your pokemon... you will come to the conclusion this discussion is overblown and full of theory; theory that can only be properly debunked at this point with a suspect test. This isn't theory. Remember, you only have ONE shot at bringing in a counter, and that's when Gengar hasn't Mega'd yet. And even that, Mengar is just going to switch out and come back at another opportunity. After that has happened, then what? Mengar is going to come out on a sitting duck and you can't do anything about it. Your entire argument is based on the theory that your opponent is stupid, won't be using Mengar correctly, and that the Perish set is the only set Mengar could possibly be running. What makes Mengar so formidable, and broken, is that it can tailor its sets to trap whatever is detrimental to your team to set up a sweep. And unlike other Pokémon, you can't do a thing about that once Gengar is Mega'd

I mostly lurk these forums because I prefer to learn from other people's posts, but I thought I might as well throw my two cents here. As other people have stated, this thread has really gone downhill after page 20 or so, and people are pretty much resorting to circular reasoning and constant repetition to prove their theses. Also, people keep saying that Mengar has a counter when it doesn't by definition. -_-
 
What if you run Taunt on the Pokemon that MGengar is there to snipe? Of course, this only works for Pokemon that don't normally run Taunt as part of their set but still learn Taunt, and even then they will be forced to use a moveslot that might be taken up just to deal with MGengar. Of course, this could simply cause players to devise strategies through which Taunt is useful on that set, or a similar one, to benefit them outside of dealing with MGengar.

What if you scout/phaze MGengar as I suggested? You are then forced into a prediction war with your opponent, where you have to predict if he'll predict you switching to the Pokemon he needs MGengar to take out. It's all about mindgames; for example, you could lead your opponent on by playing into their hand just long enough for them to switch in the thing that needs MGengar's protection. They'll likely predict you switching to the counter, as you've been making fairly obvious plays thus far, and switch in MGengar, to which you switch in your counter-pick on the same turn.
 
AOPSUser:

Caveats-
I don't see why you wouldn't compare MegaGengar to other pokemon just because it has attributes no other pokemon has. It happens all the time.

Mega Gengar is not mega until it mega evolves- so it has counters once.

Also, don't assume mega gengar can use whatever moves it wants- its also constrained by 4 moves, same as any other pokemon with a good movepool.
 
@Flameuser64 none of your arguments make any sense at all , none of your scenarios work unless by sheer luck ( and that Chesnaught idea is just insane )

Mega Gengar has no place in OU , its has 0 true counters , it rapes stall ( witch i hate btw) it deserves a quick ban , and its not the only one but thats for another day
 
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