Because it usually doesn't exist, there's a big difference between Sacred Sword and SECRET sword.
So your calcs were for nothing, as most Keldeo run SECRET sword.
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Pokémon Kangaskhan
- Thread starter The Leprechaun
- Start date
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So your calcs were for nothing, as most Keldeo run SECRET sword.
Terrakion can't switch in on PuP or Earthquake and therefore isn't a counter. It's a check at best. If Mega Kangaskhan is forced out by Terrakion then it is successfully checked, so your argument is invalid. Also people I suggest you guys drop the suspecting discussion, it serves no purpose and will just lead to infractions >.>
Check, yes. Counter, no. Terrakion is KOed by Power-up Punch + Sucker Punch. It is also OHKOed by Mega-Earthquake on the switch-in.
So Terrakion can "win" if it is at 100% life and you've sacrificed another `mon to ensure a fully healthy switch-in. Unlike Blaziken who is "countered" by a healthy Slowbro or Azumarril, most of Mega-Khan's "counters" require you to sacrifice a `mon before they even stand a chance. IMO, its more important to run solid revenge-killers vs `Khan, because you're not winning vs it 1v1.
The only true counter to M-Khan is prankster Sableye. Everything else loses to Power-up Punch / Sucker Punch / Crunch / Return. This thing is so stupid that it doesn't even need to run different sets to wreak face.
Variations on Khan's are basically
* Run Ice Beam to KO Rocky Helmet Garchomp without taking passive damage.
* Run Fire Blast to KO Ferrothorn without taking much damage.
* Run Earthquake + Jolly to ensure M-Lucario doesn't mega-evolve during a non-boosted Khan sweep, or to win harder vs Aegislash. (+2 Sucker Punch beats Aegislash... but maybe you don't want to give it King's Shield / Swords Dance shennanigans)
* Run the Seismic Toss + Wish set to completely wreak most opponent's "revenge kill strategy"
MegaKhan can survive a +2 Mega-Khan sucker-punch. But Imposter Ditto cannot, due to much lower HP. This means that +2 Imposter Ditto vs +2 Mega-Khan is a 50/50 in favor of the Khan player.
Ditto's Choices:
* +2 Sucker Punch: Fails to KO MegaKhan, and therefore loses to Mega-Khan's +2 Return.
* +2 Return: Mega-Khan's +2 Sucker Punch OHKOs Ditto's significantly lower HP.
Khan's Choices:
* Sucker Punch: Beat's +2 Return. Mega-khan is "injured" from Sucker Punch, but now Scarf-Ditto is locked into Sucker Punch, giving Khan a free-switchout into a setup `mon.
* Return: Beats +2 Sucker Punch cleanly. Khan is KOed by Imposter Ditto's +2 Return however.
The short-term battle is a 50/50. But the long-term battle heavily favor's `Khan. Imposter ditto is basically forced into using Choice Scarf Sucker Punch, because +2 Return threatens a Khan sweep. Mega-Khan can afford to take chances however and play conservatively with (a potentially failed) Sucker Punch, take the +2 Sucker punch from the imposter, and then the rest of his team laughs at Imposter Ditto's face now that it is locked into the worst choice-scarfed move in the game.
Since Imposter Ditto basically requires some damage on Mega-Khan before reliably KOing, you might as well use the more solid revenge killers such as Talonflame or Terrakion. Terrakion can KO an injured Khan with Stone Edge, discouraging ghosts from switching in. Talonflame CB Brave Bird is ridiculous, and will punish all ghosts sans Aegislash.
Basically... solid revenge killers are Talonflame and Terrakion. Weaker revenge killers like Meinshao serve interesting niches (ie: Knock Off, U-Turn, Regenerator) to mix things up a bit (Substitute a predicted switch, Knock Off the Ghost's item + deal lots of damage, U-Turn+Regenerate all the dmg you lost from Life Orb + Substitute).
If you can force Khan to be at +0, the revenge-"kill" job becomes much easier as Choice Specs Modest Hydreigon mostly OHKOs with Draco Meteor... and survives the +0 Return or Power-up Punch. So "sac a ghost, revenge kill later" is also a strategy vs the Khan. I like the Draco Meteor, because it can OHKO Khan and pretty much any switch-in except Blissey and Fairies.
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Why are we even talking about counters when: 1. Damn near every good offensive Pokemon has been without a surefire counter since BW1, and 2. He specifically labelled Terrakion a check (btw, I dunno why people aren't using it in Pokebank, it's still really freaking good 9.9). It's kinda redundant to bring up the same Pokemon over and over again, as it's already been established what can and can't safely switch into Mega Kangaskhan.
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Even in Gen5, there were almost always counters to a specific pokemon's "best set". M-Khan has a single set which is only truly countered by Sableye.
The list of +2 M-Khan revenge killers is shorter than even Blaziken's list due `Khan's massive bulk and access to priority. The `Khan pretty much has it all with his powerful Fighting / Normal / Dark coverage (PuP / Return / Crunch)
Plus, Gen6 is much less offensive than Gen5's weather spam / dragon spam. Hydreigon is hard countered by Azumaril, and Garchomp is now forced to run Stone Miss to have a chance against Togekiss. Excadrill is countered by Trevenant / Gourgeist, who also serve as excellent spinblockers. Most of the other "never countered" pokemon relied on Rain, Sand, or Sun, which has been greatly nerfed.
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No there weren't. Taking into consideration the definition you're using, Hydreigon, Terrakion, Keldeo, Thund-T, Gengar, and SD Haxorus had very few "counters"; the latter three are rather frail, but compensate for it with their speed and power, respectively. None of those Pokemon were ever considered broken, as they could be checked through less traditional, but still very effective means--such as not giving them the opportunity to switch in.
Again, why are you people assuming that Mega Kangaskhan will always be at +2? You make it seem as if the lack of healing and Normal typing aren't enough to tarnish any defensive potential it may have.
You're forgetting that the Pokemon you'd mentioned have different means of pressuring their new checks: Hydreigon has U-turn; Doryuuzu can either spam Iron Head, or wait until the aforementioned ghosts are weak enough for +2 Iron Head to KO; and Garchomp... Garchomp didn't really mind running Stone Edge in the past (it's going to have access to Iron Head in a couple of weeks, if that means anything 9.9). Though, how those Pokemon perform now is irrelevant to whether or not Mega Kangaskhan is broken. My point was that we've dealt with seemingly uncounterable Pokemon in the past just fine, and Mega Kangaskhan can be handled in the same manner.
I was under the impression that most revenge killers don't have Shadow Tag; I was also under the impression that losing a Pokemon is generally not preferred. Checking something that seems to only have a few reliable checks doesn't require the loss of a Pokemon beforehand. As I'd said, simply not giving them a chance to get any momentum is very effective, and definitely keeps them at bay.
Moreover, in my other post in this thread, I'd mentioned that planning ahead is a very important part of this game. In that particular scenario ("a weakened TTar"), a bit of planning ahead would prevent Mega Kang from coming in safely. I mean, I can argue that Thund-T can come in on a choice-locked Rotom-W, Jolteon, Lando-T, etc, or a -2 [special attacker], set up, and break teams all on its own; don't make bad choices, and Mega Kangaskhan won't be able to capitalize on them 9.9.
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The traditional means of breaking `mon with no counters is to throw a Focus Sash on something (ie: Magic Guard Alakazam) to 100% guarentee a stop to the sweep. The second means is by utilizing a Choice Scarf to outspeed it. Part of this relies on you doing enough damage on the opponent's setup pokemon.
For example, when Haxorus comes in and is threatening to sweep, you can sac your current `mon to guarantee Haxorus remains at +0... or is injured at +2. For example, if Haxorus comes into a weakened TTar, TTar can crunch it for a good amount of damage on the predicted Swords Dance, and then die to the +2 whatever. You then switch in a revenge killer (ie: Magic Guard Alakazam) who survives either one hit, or KOs the weakened `mon.
`Khan is much more threatening than Haxorus in that situation. A clean `Khan switchin to the same situation has `Khan threatening a Power-up Punch to KO TTar, get `Khan to +2 safely, and taking out your pokemon. Worse, the Khan is surprisingly hard to Revenge Kill due to his access to 100 Base Speed AND access to SuckerPunch. Magic Guard Alakazam for instance is hit with Priority Sucker Punch, and then OHKOed through its focus sash due to Parental Bond.
So your traditional methods of Focus Sash or speedy pokemon (ie: Gengar or Starmie as a revenge killer) lose to Sucker Punch, and leave `Khan at +2. It also has better bulk than every single pokemon you've listed, so its "staying power" is quite fearsome. (4/0 Khan survives a Choice Banded Garchomp outrage for example).
The traditional means of stopping previously uncounterable pokemon are unacceptable when it comes to `Khan.
Can you do me a favor, and "reply" to posts that are after you? Editing my post into your current post is a bit... weird... for this conversation. I'm going to "double post", and hope that a moderator fixes this conversation later...
So... you're telling me that the "proper response" to Mega Kang is to make sure that TTar never kills an opponent's pokemon with less than 70% HP remaining? You do realize that Jolly `Khan Power-up Punch Kills a 252/0 TTar at 70% HP, right? What you're calling "Planning Ahead" is the realization that you give `Khan the ability to sweep your team as soon as Tyranitar KO's an Opponent's mon. This can be taken advantage of by Khan: if Talonflame is used as a Lead, it can deal ~40% damage over the course of two Brave Birds to a Tyranitar switch in... or even run Steel Wing to get that damage in. Once TTar KO's Talonflame, the death is used as a setup opportunity for Mega-Khan. Bam, your team now has to deal with +2 Khan, period. You can either sacrifice `TTar right now and attempt to revenge kill a full HP +2 Kangaskhan, or you can switch TTar out, give `Khan a free +2 Powerup Punch, and potentially give your team THAT much more trouble.
Or, you can let Talonflame have free reign over your team, and refuse to use TTar as a switch-in. But now your team is composed of two Talonflame counters AND two Mega-Khan checks... your team building opportunity is getting pretty short.
The Talonflame sacrifice vs TTar strategy will work 100% if your opponent's ghosts are dead. It is pretty solid towards giving `Khan the +2 he needs to win the game single-handedly. Even then, if your opponent's Ghost is not Sableye, `Khan can potentially predict the Ghost Switchin with Scrappy Power-up Punch -> Mega Crunch, or even just do double-Crunch to KO the ghost straight up.
To complete the strategy, you realize that these are the things that Mega`Khan fears: Priority Will-o-Wisp from Sableye, and powerful STAB fighting attacks. Oh yeah, and Talonflame's ridiculous priority (vs Weakened `Khan... since Brave Bird doesn't OHKO Khan). Anything else does NOT stop the Khan sweep (Slower Will-o-Wisps like from Rotom or Jellicent are either 2HKOed or OHKOed by Return or Crunch). This makes it brutally easy to build a team around Khan right now. Use a Guts / Flash Fire pokemon that benefits from the Will-o-Wisp, or use a Status Absorber (Natural Cure, Toxic Orb Gliscor)... and Run a Ghost for the obvious Close Combat / High-Jump Kick switch-ins. Some `mon like Trevenant can do both (Natural Cure or Harvest Lum Berry / Rest).
Except Thund-T can be countered by Latios / Latias Draco Meteors, walled by Trace Pokemon or even Revenge Killed by Imposter Ditto (I've shown the logic earlier why Imposter Ditto doesn't win vs Full HP +2 Khan). A weakened Thund-T can be KOed by Focus Sash Alakazam, even if it used Agility.
Finally, I can always leave my current `mon in and HIT Thundurus, giving me the opportunity to potentially revenge kill it. As stated before, part of the issue with Mega-Khan is that it is exceptionally hard to prevent it from getting to +2 while KOing one of your `mon. Thundurus has to lose a turn to the opponent while it sets up, but Khanga is still doing solid damage in the form of Power Up Punch.
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Eh... to be completely honest, I'd replied with an edit with the hope that you wouldn't reply so quickly, so other people would jump in (it's pretty awkward to go back and forth with one person in a thread, imo at least).
Anyway, you do know that this is nothing new, right? Lots of Pokemon can become extremely threatening in this particular scenario, but it isn't really realistic if both players are taking into consideration what is and isn't important in a match. Ok, so you sacced your Talonflame early, and for what? To aggressively play something that the opposing team likely has a check for? To trade KOes with your opponent and lose two excellent revenge killers? It's very poor planning on both ends; and frankly, if that team's only answer to Talonflame is TTar, then it's a pretty bad team, as it's not taking into account Talon's possible teammates (U-turn Talon (+ Dugtrio in some cases) is pretty popular 9.9). In any case, it's a very specific scenario--and I'm sure that there are more--but aggressive handling of Kangaskhan makes for a poor argument. Mega Kangaskhan isn't capable of plowing through many old and new cores alike, let alone taking entire teams by itself, so I really can't see the logic in essentially saccing it just because an opportunity arises for it to... get to +2. Granted, it DOES take something down with it, but I can argue that the opposing team, at that point in a match, has more than enough resources to silence Mega Kangaskhan with little trouble.
I can't believe I forgot about U-Turn in that post above. If Talonflame gets a good U-Turn against the TTar, its pretty much GGs right there. The Talonflame / Khan team loses nothing but ~6% dmg to Sandstorm, and you lose a `mon and now you're staring at the face of a +2 Mega-Khan.
Trust me, its a pretty solid strategy. Best part is, Talonflame switches into predicted Will-o-Wisps all day and threatens with Swords Dance. The number of WoW users who can take on Khan and Talonflame are pretty low...
Trust me, its a pretty solid strategy. Best part is, Talonflame switches into predicted Will-o-Wisps all day and threatens with Swords Dance. The number of WoW users who can take on Khan and Talonflame are pretty low...
If I'm running two pokemon to take on 3 or 4 members of your team, then I've already won. If you're running 2, or 3 Khan checks AND 2 or 3 talonflame checks, good luck beating the rest of my team.
Ghosts are the only things checking Khan... because of their immunity to Mega-Power Up Punch. Remember, Terrakion is NOT a check, because the blatantly obvious Power-up Punch -> Sucker Punch takes out Terrakion. Once you get into that situation where Mega-Khan is about to use a Power-up Punch against your team, you are losing a pokemon if you aren't running Sableye. PERIOD. If you disagree with me, run some damage calcs that prove your point.
Hippowdon is 2HKOed by Power-up Punch / Mega Return. Skarmory whirlwinds him out, but without Rocky Helmet never really does damage to Khan. Skarm takes something like 70% damage from Power-up Punch + Crunch, and Mega-Khan is left at full HP. Terrakion isn't even a check, although he can revenge-kill.
IIRC, there was some discussion about Eviolight Dusclops who manages to switch into two Crunches, hit Khan with a WilloWisp... and then promptly dies. But that's the closest "counter" outside of Sableye that I've seen in this thread.
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Riiiiiight, because Lando-T + Rotom-W was a very good core in BW2 (and still is, mind you) only due to Talonflame... not existing. There are effective cores and Pokemon that don't check Talonflame specifically, but are capable of doing so without much effort. Talonflame is just that mediocre of a Pokemon lol
Just so you know, a "check" isn't supposed to be fully capable of switching into a particular threat. Rather, a check can reliably neutralize said threat, and forces the hand of the player using it; in Terrakion's case, it gives the player using Mega Kangaskhan more incentive to to PuP or Earthquake immediately, rather than actually use its STAB, which can be risky if the team is built to not be overwhelmed by Lando-T, Garchomp, Fighting STAB, etc. There are several other means of checking Mega Kangaskhan, but most of them boil down to overall smart play--from both ends--and/or offensive pressure.
Lando-T doesn't check Mega-Khan, nor does Rotom-W.
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus: 375-442 (98.1 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 333-393 (109.5 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You know what? Lets leave OU, and switch to Ubers for a second... to demonstrate just how ridiculous Mega-Khan is.
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 292-343 (70.1 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ SpA Life Orb Lugia Aeroblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 142-168 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Even Lugia isn't a check against Mega-Khan. Power-up Punch breaks Multi-scale on the switchin, and Return greatly outdamages Roost.
So you ask, why am I only focused on ghosts? Because the +2 Power Up Punch Returns hurt hard. When the premier Uber's wall like 252/252+ Lugia is unable to stop Khan from setting up to +2 and owning a team, you have to start getting creative with types and stuff.
In particular, the strategy I've found to be most useful is "sac a ghost", forcing `Khan to Crunch, and then hope that my revenge-killer can build momentum against the opponent's team. Its not a winning strategy, but its the best one I've found so far.
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EDIT: I forgot about Intimidate. But defensive Landorus-T is not able to win vs Mega Khan, it just doesn't do enough damage.
0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 150-177 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Landorus-T: 307-364 (80.3 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
When Landorus switches in, Khan is usually 3HKOed by the Landorus. Khan finishes at +1 (Intimidate only somewhat hurts the sweep), and finishes at +1 with roughly 50% hp. Rotom-W just dies to PuP boosted Returns and Khan takes no damage at all.
Why the hell isn't Mega-Kangaskhan using PuP on the turn it Mega Evolves? Do you have any battle experience in Gen6 at all? PuP is Mega-Khan's win condition. The thing is so stupid to use that I can only really think of two ways that Khan's first turn should be used right now:
1. Mega Evolve + Power up Punch
2. Scrappy + Power up Punch, if you predict a non-Sableye Ghost Switchin. Then you use Your +1 Crunch to KO all ghosts sans Sableye and other trash.
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Fixed that for you.
You completely missed the point lol
There are risks associated with using PuP on the turn Kangaskhan MEs. For one, not every Pokemon that Kangaskhan switches into will be at low HP and / or weak to PuP. Second--and you even mentioned this lol--Kangaskhan may just have to remain in its current state to weaken a ghost with Return / Double-Edge; if Kang Mega Evolves and uses Power-Up Punch while a ghost / Chomp / Fighting resist is still alive and healthy, then it's not going to be dealing much damage, let alone sweeping a single thing. Third, there ARE times at which Mega Kangaskhan is better off using its coverage move or STAB than it is attempting to boost. Lastly... you generally don't play your win condition so aggressively lol.
Oh, and to answer your question, I've been laddering on PO (before their Kang-ite ban) and PS since October and frequently test teams with other players. I'm not THAT credible, but I at least know what a smart Mega Kangaskhan user is capable of--and it's not anything more threatening than a Terrakion used in the hands of a good player.
is what I was referring to, and neither of those Pokemon are Kangaskhan bait.
And here comes the arrogance!
There are risks associated with using PuP on the turn Kangaskhan MEs. For one, not every Pokemon that Kangaskhan switches into will be at low HP and / or weak to PuP. Second--and you even mentioned this lol--Kangaskhan may just have to remain in its current state to weaken a ghost with Return / Double-Edge; if Kang Mega Evolves and uses Power-Up Punch while a ghost / Chomp / Fighting resist is still alive and healthy, then it's not going to be dealing much damage, let alone sweeping a single thing. Third, there ARE times at which Mega Kangaskhan is better off using its coverage move or STAB than it is attempting to boost. Lastly... you generally don't play your win condition so aggressively lol.
Oh, and to answer your question, I've been laddering on PO (before their Kang-ite ban) and PS since October and frequently test teams with other players. I'm not THAT credible, but I at least know what a smart Mega Kangaskhan user is capable of--and it's not anything more threatening than a Terrakion used in the hands of a good player.
Yeah, the thing is pretty OP, and is actually a brain-dead pokemon to use. Teaming Kang up with Talonflame, Rotom-W, Excadrill, and a ghost of your choice is such a devastating team that I have faced many times now. There is only so much you can do, and by the time Kanga comes out, all the counters are most likely going to be dead from the other threats, leaving Kanga there to just mop up everything unopposed.
Since I've nothing better to do at the moment, here are some funny calculations involving M-Khan and the hardiest walls in all of Pokémon, Ubers included. I think they speak for themselves.
And yeah, it's mindless autopilot sweeping of the most disgusting kind. M-Gengar was harder to use than this thing.
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 343-405 (81.8 - 96.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 176 Def Landorus-T: 163-193 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 176 Def Landorus-T: 364-429 (95.5 - 112.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 234-276 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (a likely KO after Scrappy PuP, and you can't do anything back)
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 168-201 (59.3 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (all it can do is WoW in return, in which case...)
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond burned Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 84-100 (29.6 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (...it probably kills you through the burn. Fantastic.)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 153-180 (45.9 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 151-178 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (holy fuck are you shitting me)
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 204-240 (59.4 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 270-318 (78.7 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Very likely KO after PuP. keep in mind, M-Aggron isn't usually EV'd like this. The thing that can probably stop M-Mawile flat-out loses to this thing.)
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 274-324 (90.4 - 106.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 288-339 (95 - 111.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 180-213 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 267-315 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond burned Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 133-157 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 177-210 (42.6 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 354-417 (85.3 - 100.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 337-397 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (excuse me?!)
252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus: 102-122 (22.9 - 27.4%) -- possible 9HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (accounting for the +1 in the second hit)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus: 171-202 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Normal: 339-400 (76.5 - 90.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (for what it's worth, this same Arceus can survive +2 Play Rough from M-Mawile and retaliate.)
252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Rock: 102-122 (22.9 - 27.4%) -- possible 9HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (accounting for the +1 in the second hit)
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Rock: 441-522 (99.5 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Rock: 178-210 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 176 Def Landorus-T: 163-193 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 176 Def Landorus-T: 364-429 (95.5 - 112.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 234-276 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (a likely KO after Scrappy PuP, and you can't do anything back)
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 168-201 (59.3 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (all it can do is WoW in return, in which case...)
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond burned Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 84-100 (29.6 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (...it probably kills you through the burn. Fantastic.)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 153-180 (45.9 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 151-178 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (holy fuck are you shitting me)
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 204-240 (59.4 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 270-318 (78.7 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Very likely KO after PuP. keep in mind, M-Aggron isn't usually EV'd like this. The thing that can probably stop M-Mawile flat-out loses to this thing.)
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 274-324 (90.4 - 106.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 288-339 (95 - 111.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 180-213 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 267-315 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond burned Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 133-157 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 177-210 (42.6 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 354-417 (85.3 - 100.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 337-397 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (excuse me?!)
252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus: 102-122 (22.9 - 27.4%) -- possible 9HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (accounting for the +1 in the second hit)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus: 171-202 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Normal: 339-400 (76.5 - 90.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (for what it's worth, this same Arceus can survive +2 Play Rough from M-Mawile and retaliate.)
252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Rock: 102-122 (22.9 - 27.4%) -- possible 9HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (accounting for the +1 in the second hit)
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Rock: 441-522 (99.5 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Rock: 178-210 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And yeah, it's mindless autopilot sweeping of the most disgusting kind. M-Gengar was harder to use than this thing.
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Alright, so lets do this.
Garchomp:
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 67-79 (18.7 - 22%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 265-313 (74 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Total: 92.7% to 113%. KO'ed by Power-up Punch + Sucker Punch. Garchomp isn't gonna get one turn to do anything, especially if any hazards are on the field. What about a revenge-kill? What can Garchomp do with the 1 turn it outspeeds Mega-Khan (forcing Mega-Khan to use +2 Return for the OHKO):
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 294-346 (83.7 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 508-598 (141.8 - 167%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Woops, Choice Band Garchomp isn't even a clean revenge killer. Mega-Khan kills itself due to Return self-inflicted damage from Rough Skin, but easily kills Garchomp with +2 Return. Chances are however, Garchomp isn't going to use Choice Band Outrage anymore, lest he be Togekiss setup bait.
Fighting Resist? You mean Lugia? I've already posted the calculations for LUGIA UBER-WALL earlier, and that 4x fighting-resist wasn't good enough to take on Power-up Punch + Return from Mega-Khan. Any fighting-resist with less defenses than Lugia is going to lose to Khan. For example:
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 420-496 (99 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Ghost? I already told you, Khan requires prediction to win. Which is why I'm focusing on Ghosts in my discussion. Nonetheless, `Khan does quite fine against Ghost switch-ins. All he has to do is Mega-Crunch on the switch-in and then do it again for the kill.
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Trevenant: 219-258 (58.5 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 231-273 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Gengar: 354-417 (109.2 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Sub-Disable set, max HP / Max speed)
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 180-213 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Aegislash has the most issues because of King's Shield. On the 2nd turn, Khan can simply use Sucker-punch to deal with Aegislash, and then follow up with Crunch since King's Shield will probably fail on the 3rd turn. Khan fears no Swords Dance or Weakness Policy because he's faster than Aegislash and immune to Shadow Sneak. The standard Khan strategy only fears Automatize + Weakness Policy, but can spam Sucker Punch against them or outpredict with Crunch on the Automatize.
If you don't like that "mind game", then run Earthquake for the easy KO, even against Automatize + Weakness Policy (Crunch on the switch-in, Earthquake on 2nd turn to predict the King's Shield... KO's the Aegislash if they use Automatize, and King's Shield doesn't lower EQ attack).
Now, you've forced Khan to be at +0 by saccing a Ghost, and can retaliate with a _real_ revenge killer, like Meinshao or Terrakion. Mega-Lucario survives a +0 Power-up Punch and OHKOs with Close Combat or +2 Vacuum Wave as well, potentially setting up for a mega-Sweep... (which is why I suggest Earthquake on Khan). But its important to remember that to get to this point, you had to sac a ghost pokemon.
Another potential "out", (which is why I suggest to run Earthquake on Khan), is Mega-Lucario. Mega-Lucario's battle-plan is "sac a Ghost" to ensure Khan is at +0, use Nasty Plot on the mega-Evolution turn, and KO with Vacuum Wave.
252 Atk Mega Kangaskhan (70 BP Fighting Attack) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 166-196 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 368-436 (104.5 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
70BP Fighting Attack simulates the effect of +0 Power-up Punch. So... Lucario survives a +0 Power-up Punch, and gets a successful Nasty Plot. Then, it OHKOs Mega-Khan with Vacuum Wave, and can potentially sweep the opponent. But Khan can stop this potential reversal by just running Earthquake. Or... switching out to another team member.
So Mega-Khan's strategy is so braindead simple. Use Power-up Punch on turn 1, or if you predict a Ghost, use Crunch instead. Outside of Sableye, Eviolite Dusclops, and Gorgeist, you are going to 2HKO all of them with Crunch. Eviolite Dusclops and Gorgeist is 3HKO by the Burned Mega-Khan however, and therefore are not considered counters. The only true counter is Sableye who has access to Prankster Will-o-Wisp and Prankster Recover. (Recover off the damage, and watch `Khan die).
The ONLY time Khan needs to play careful is if the opponent has Sableye. Otherwise, if he gets to +2, he basically singlehandedly wins the game for you.
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Now, please, enlighten me. What magic strategy do you have against Mega-Khan? You keep telling me losing strategies that have been analyzed through dozens of pages of discussion already. You don't even seem to understand why `Khan's first turn is almost always Mega-Evolve + Power up Punch...
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Wholeheartedly agree. If it weren't so bulky, M-kang wouldn't be too much of a problem as you could easily revenge kill with something that outspeeds and has a strong priority move or OHKO with something that can take the +2 suckerpunch/ eq/ return (lol) but as it stands, this thing is much like azumarill in that it can take at least one hit and deal a ton of damage in response OR OHKO you with its strong prioity, but M-kanga has the added advantages of being able to freely switch between its four moves (and is even able to boost to +4 without too much trouble) while still dealing huge damage, AND having decent speed AND bypassing sturdy/ focus sashes with parental bond.
You can bring up calcs all day, but that doesn't change the fact that Kangaskhan won't be getting in completely unscathed, and isn't particularly fast, making it easy to revenge if it happens to net any kind of momentum. Did you even take into consideration that "Fighting resist" could also be something a bit more offensively oriented, like Latios or Crobat (Hypnosis)? Likely not, because apparently Sucker Punch automatically invalidates anything faster; prediction is a two-way street, granted, but Sucker Punch only has 8 PP, making it risky to use haphazardly.
That said, "Braindead" Pokemon are nothing new, and that trait doesn't contribute much to how good a Pokemon is. Taking what is seemingly the most beneficial route with Mega Kangaskhan isn't likely yield positive results.
So you're telling me that once Mega Kang has revealed that has Crunch, the best course of action is to... stay in and take the second one? Kang just revealed what checks it and what doesn't; the opposing player should be smart enough to adapt and regain control of the match from there.
I was under the impression you were DeliciousChill from pokemon showdown. If I was wrong, that's my bad and I apologize.
Stall does rely on it, mainly for designing which pokemon to choose. Would a ghost such as Mismagius (kind of random, but more for the levitate purpose ability) be a good counter if the usage stat of crunch was higher than it currently is (10%)? Probably not. In fact, Aegi makes a terrible counter and Trevanant doesn't do bad because of the usage of EQ over Fire punch (although I since this shift is coming once people see dark/fight/normal has very few resists anyways). My usage of cofagrigus is largely based on me not wanting sableye, cof's ability and the fact that only 10% are going to hit him for about 40-47% damage by running crunch.
Power equates to good wall breaking, and the fact is Haxorus is a good wall breaker. A lot of stall is still very, very slow which makes pokemon like garchomp-mega and kyurem really good even with mediocre speed.
And the short answer for mega pinsir is max defense rocky helmet skarm. The only and best check I've seen, better than ttar-mega for sure, just as good as aggron-mega most likely.
Base 100 Spe is pretty significant, and having Sucker Punch makes it that much more dangerous. Also, Hypnosis? Really? Using a 60% accurate move is risky at best, and completely devastating at worst for the pokemon using the move. Almost NO ONE uses Hypnosis on anything. Also, Sucker Punch is not really that big a deal to use when you want. Almost nbody is going to be leading with Mega-Khan. You start dwindling their team down with other threats, send out Kanga when there are only two or three pokemon left, and watch the world burn because there are no real answers after that. The fact that Kangaskhan can totally trump almost any possible switch-in just makes things worse.
Except that it usually does. :/
That only matters if there is anything to regain and if the rest of your team isn't depleted after the rest of the battles to matter. M-Kanga is unfair for the sheer fact that there is nothing you can do against it at all late game. You will be Returned/EQed/Crunched/Sucker Punched to death while doing little to nothing in return after a single PuP.
This is the main issue with it, I think. If you try and set up early game with m-kang, it will likely cost the opponent a lot to get rid of it unless they have an outright counter to it (of which there are not many of to my knowledge), and late-game those counters are usually even less available so kang is free to sweep because of its decent speed with a priority move, massive damage, good coverage, and ability to take one or several hits.
By letting their non-Ghosts get smacked around by Return? Dunno what you're trying to say here, Chillarmy. You kinda need your Ghost to stop Kanga from boosting up and wrecking, but you can't switch it in on Crunch either...
Lugia calcs and Ho-Oh calcs:
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 4-6 (0.9 - 1.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
then,
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (Broken Multiscale) Lugia: 319-378 (76.6 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lugia gets killed off with SR on the field, yep, one of the top Uber walls. Then we have Lugia:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lugia Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 325-384 (92.5 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
A 140 BP Move off of STAB and a 90 SpA, along with 252+ and a Choice Specs, isn't enough to kill off MegaKhan. No one even runs Psycho Boost/Choice Specs anyways, it is just an example. Then Ho-Oh:
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 25-30 (6 - 7.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 375-442 (90.1 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
this adds up to 96.1 - 113.4. Seriously, this thing is too strong. Oh, and when Ho-Oh fights back:
252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Kangaskhan: 300-354 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Just a 6.3% chance. Wow.
Also, food for thought, but Facade ignores the Burn and hits with a monstrous 140 BP, might be worthwhile...
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 4-6 (0.9 - 1.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
then,
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (Broken Multiscale) Lugia: 319-378 (76.6 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lugia gets killed off with SR on the field, yep, one of the top Uber walls. Then we have Lugia:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lugia Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 325-384 (92.5 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
A 140 BP Move off of STAB and a 90 SpA, along with 252+ and a Choice Specs, isn't enough to kill off MegaKhan. No one even runs Psycho Boost/Choice Specs anyways, it is just an example. Then Ho-Oh:
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 25-30 (6 - 7.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 375-442 (90.1 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
this adds up to 96.1 - 113.4. Seriously, this thing is too strong. Oh, and when Ho-Oh fights back:
252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Kangaskhan: 300-354 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Just a 6.3% chance. Wow.
Also, food for thought, but Facade ignores the Burn and hits with a monstrous 140 BP, might be worthwhile...
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