Pokémon Kangaskhan

[Ajwf]

Ranevski, if you want to continue this, we can do so by conversation outside the thread. However, I will say that I can use the entire ladder argument against you should you so choose to bring it up again. Saying "His team is garbage and he played terrible" seems more akin to insulting than analyzing. Sash on cloyster is generally surpassed for white herb or even king's rock. Preference. The total list of intimidate users in OU:
Gyarados, Salamence, Landorus-Therian. That's fairy small to draw from. There's something of five ghosts in limbo and OU (gengar, aegi, jelli, gourgeist, trevanant and then mega bannet...).

Oh and edgequake?
Well, you did specify "immune" so I assume you mean levitate. Which means haxorus, excadrill, kyurem-black all hit them. Flying is all weak to rock and the neutral are skarm/glisc.
Resists are bug/grass. Grass is neutral rock, but often carries subtypings giving away the resist (IE ferrothorn, venusaur). All bugs in OU are neutral to EQ, and one is 4x weak to rock. So that's not helpful either.

In fact, the soul reason edgequake is so powerful is because of this difficult double-resist.

So yeah, to a beginner, that was more than harsh. On this subject, though, it is best we continue (as stated before) via conversations.

While it might not JUSTIFY Kan as ubers, it certainly doesn't detract from it. Just remember that, there was such a clear advantage for UR, who is asking advice because HE doesn't know how he'd stop it, that we can take away that kan completely unraveled that game.

 

[Ranevski]

I gave plenty of constructive criticism, why did you only quote the first 8 words? And you aren't meant to use everything, my point was he didn't have any of those.

I'm not going to bother replying to the rest of what you wrote or anything else because it displays a clear lack of understanding of what is competitive pokemon, what a good team build looks like, what is constructive criticism, and how we determine bans here at smogon.

The poster asked for analsysis, which I gave. You just jumped down my neck trying to defend someone who doesn't need defending.

 

[Sharpteeth]

Going back to Kangaskhan:

This is actually an anecdote going back to early Gen 5, right before the Excadrill ban. At that point, people were coming up with entirely unviable sets solely to beat Excadrill. A famous example is Balloon/Magnet Rise Magnezone, who could come in after a kill, take a Rock Slide as it used Magnet Rise, then be immune to EQ for a few turns while it spammed HP Fire. Scarf Politoed was also the most popular set (in fact, it was listed first in the analysis, whereas it dropped down to 3rd by the end of Gen 5) simply for its ability to beat Excadrill.

Usage stats from July 2013 http://paste.ubuntu.com/5939795/
Choice Scarf 9.085% <-less than 1 in 10 at the end. There's no moveset statistic from right before the Excadrill ban, but Scarf-Toed was definitely the most common set.

Compare that to the current situation, where Rocky Helmet is suggested on Skarmory (instead of Leftovers) and Garchomp (instead of Leftovers / Yache / LO / Scarf / Band) solely to beat Mega-Kangaskhan, and where sets such as Skill Swap Cofagrigus pop up (again) solely to stop Kangaskhan. These sets are generally inferior to their alternative, which is a sign that Mega-Kangaskhan is over-centralizing the metagame.

So in summary: Does Mega-Kangaskhan deserve a ban for being broken? That depends on your definition of broken. A ton of posts here are essentially "Mega-Khan beats my team 6-0, ban it." or "Mega-Khan can't get past my Gyarados/Gengar combo, don't ban it." How broken something has to be before it deserves a ban will change depending on who you ask.

Is Mega-Kangaskhan strong enough to force people to use sub-optimal sets solely to stop it? Yes.

Would OU be better off witout Mega-Kangaskhan? For the above reason, yes. It's not simply a matter of "Just run a counter to it." anymore. It's gotten to the point where even the counters have to be specifically tailored to beating Khan. Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn does a worse job of beating Rotom-W than Leftovers Ferrothorn, since you're taking a bit of extra damage each turn. Rocky Helmet Skarmory is more vulnerable to being KO'd without Leftovers restoring its Sturdy.

 

[UR2L8]

His team is garbage and he played terrible.

That wasn't the primary point to focus on here, I was asking if you what you would have done if you were my opponent. I'd like to think that my opponent could have won with that team if he had played better, or if MKang would have just ran over his team entirely no matter how well he played.

This is example #27631312 of someone posting a low-rating replay (this guy was ~1500) which is completely worthless.

Not everyone starts at 1800, or retains 1800 rankings. Shoot, My rank fluctuates just because I want to experiment with different ideas/pokes.
Its also a brand new meta, we're still discovering new egg moves. For that, as of now I don't think judging a player by their ranking is a good way to gauge their skill level, I feel we're very much still in a 'testing the waters' phase.

His team has no focus Sash on a Cloyster, that he didn't lead with, he couldn't clear sticky web, he has no Intimidate users, no Ghosts, noone with willowowisp, no revenge killer, and his only EQ immune is a Moxie Gyarados which is weak to Rock.

Lets give my opponent the benefit of the doubt and assume he was running Rapid Spin and LO or King's Rock. And that he determined that Sash on a Rapid Spin Cloyster would be redundant. (Rapid Spin users often need to switch in on hazards, thus breaking the sash.) I would say a sash lead would have changed the way that game was played, but I'd rather not theorymon here.

Moving forward. Intimidate doesn't exactly stop MKang in its tracks, as the incoming intimidator is still getting dented pretty hard by +1 Return without a way to repay an appropriate amount of damage. Ghosts have been debated in the thread on and off. Some MKang use Crunch, some Sucker Punch, which hits for SE. As far as wisping goes, Rotom takes terrible damage from +2 Return and the Grass/Ghosts have Fire Punch to look out for, an iffy strat at best because it doesn't shut MKang down entirely but it makes him way easier to deal with.
Though I'll agree with you that packing a revenge killer on most teams is a good idea.

So.. what would have you done to stop MKang if you were my opponent? I already mentioned that preserving Rocky Helmet Garchomp was his best bet

 

[56k]

How does the move Counter interract with Parental Bond? I've ran calcs and a few key pokemon like Gligar and Crustle can survive any 2 hits and counter back, but does counter return all of the damage x2, or only the weak 2nd hit?

 

[Zebstrika]

One other little way to stop Kang that I've found is to use a fast ghost like Gengar or Froslass with destiny bond. Use destiny bound turn 1. If Khan uses sucker punch, it will go first and fail, so destiny bond will protect your next turn, allowing you to get a cheap shot on that turn (or force Kangaskhan to die with you). If Kang uses an actual attack on your destiny bond turn, you both die, assuming it's strong enough to OHKO, which for most pokemon it probably is. Repeat until Kang switches, kills you or dies. Kang can't really set up on your destiny bond turns (unless it has wish) since PuP does nothing.

Obviously the kang user can easily force you to sacrifice your ghost to take it down, and I don't think forcing you to go 1 for 1 is all that balanced. 2 for 1 if you're afraid you can't switch your ghost in safely, though you're immune to return, PuP and Sucker Punch on the switch and only have to worry about its coverage. And it's also not a perfect strategy if the opponent switches to a pursuiter, then destiny bond is forced to take down the pursuiter instead of Kang.

So.. what would have you done to stop MKang if you were my opponent? I already mentioned that preserving Rocky Helmet Garchomp was his best bet

First, if the cloyster was a rapid spinner, he could have brought that into mandibuzz instead of empoleon, scared you off with the threat of an SE ice move or shell smash and use that free turn for a rapid spin. Mandibuzz can't do anything back besides annoy the cloyster, it has enough physical defense that foul play isn't all that crippling. Also, yes, a revenge killer would have been nice. Zoroark could have been that, it would have finished your Kang easily if it was scarfed or had sucker punch.

 

[silfan]

One other little way to stop Kang that I've found is to use a fast ghost like Gengar or Froslass with destiny bond. Use destiny bound turn 1. If Khan uses sucker punch, it will go first and fail, so destiny bond will protect your next turn, allowing you to get a cheap shot on that turn (or force Kangaskhan to die with you). If Kang uses an actual attack on your destiny bond turn, you both die, assuming it's strong enough to OHKO, which for most pokemon it probably is. Repeat until Kang switches, kills you or dies. Kang can't really set up on your destiny bond turns (unless it has wish) since PuP does nothing.

Obviously the kang user can easily force you to sacrifice your ghost to take it down, and I don't think forcing you to go 1 for 1 is all that balanced. 2 for 1 if you're afraid you can't switch your ghost in safely, though you're immune to return, PuP and Sucker Punch on the switch and only have to worry about its coverage. And it's also not a perfect strategy if the opponent switches to a pursuiter, then destiny bond is forced to take down the pursuiter instead of Kang.First, if the cloyster was a rapid spinner, he could have brought that into mandibuzz instead of empoleon, scared you off with the threat of an SE ice move or shell smash and use that free turn for a rapid spin. Mandibuzz can't do anything back besides annoy the cloyster, it has enough physical defense that foul play isn't all that crippling. Also, yes, a revenge killer would have been nice. Zoroark could have been that, it would have finished your Kang easily if it was scarfed or had sucker punch.

This doesn't work. Destiny Bond only last until your pokemon moves again, which will happen on the next turn if your pokemon is faster.
The turn after you use D-bond, your pokemon will move first and thus, ends D-bond's buff ...
That is, unless you use D-bond again, but Mega Kangaskhan can just stall you out of Destiny Bond with PuP or Return if so.

 

[Zebstrika]

This doesn't work. Destiny Bond only last until your pokemon moves again, which will happen on the next turn if your pokemon is faster.
The turn after you use D-bond, your pokemon will move first and thus, ends D-bond's buff ...
That is, unless you use D-bond again, but Mega Kangaskhan can just stall you out of Destiny Bond with PuP or Return if so.

The idea is: Turn 1, use destiny bond. Either Kang uses Sucker Punch that turn or Crunch.

If Kang uses Sucker Punch, she will go first and it will fail. Then your pokemon will move and use destiny bond. Then, you're free to get an attack off the next turn (I suppose I assumed this attack would KO the Kang although that's been proven in this thread to be suprisingly difficult, so it is still somewhat flawed). If Kang uses Sucker Punch on Turn 2, it will KO you before you get off your next attack, taking you with it. Destiny Bond did not wear off because Sucker Punch went off before your Turn 2 attack. Otherwise, Kang uses an attack with regular priority, so you can use that to get a free hit on it.

If, on turn 1, kang used crunch or some other coverage as you destiny bonded, it ko's your pokemon and both of you die.

 

[RockStarFish]

This doesn't work. Destiny Bond only last until your pokemon moves again, which will happen on the next turn if your pokemon is faster.
The turn after you use D-bond, your pokemon will move first and thus, ends D-bond's buff ...
That is, unless you use D-bond again, but Mega Kangaskhan can just stall you out of Destiny Bond with PuP or Return if so.

Well, if you're a Froslass, you can alternate between Destiny Bond and Avalanche. Mega Kangaskhan can't PP stall you with ineffective attacks, because Avalanche kills it before Destiny Bond runs out of PP; the reduced priority means you get two turns of Destiny Bond for one use.

Of course now we're getting into ridiculously specific tailored movesets, but it's a fun way of using negative priority to beat Mega Kangaskhan.

 

[Mariachi Duck]

What about Unaware Curse Quagsire?

Quagsire @ Unaware
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 DEF / 4 SpD
Nature: Relaxed
- Curse
- Recover
- Waterfall
- Earthquake

This set can take a P-uP for 10% or less after Lefties, ignores the boost while Return goes off, and then can out-heal Return damage thereafter with Recover. This is a boost war Kang can't win, and she's at least forced to switch.

 

[silfan]

The idea is: Turn 1, use destiny bond. Either Kang uses Sucker Punch that turn or Crunch.

If Kang uses Sucker Punch, she will go first and it will fail. Then your pokemon will move and use destiny bond. Then, you're free to get an attack off the next turn (I suppose I assumed this attack would KO the Kang although that's been proven in this thread to be suprisingly difficult, so it is still somewhat flawed). If Kang uses Sucker Punch on Turn 2, it will KO you before you get off your next attack, taking you with it. Destiny Bond did not wear off because Sucker Punch went off before your Turn 2 attack. Otherwise, Kang uses an attack with regular priority, so you can use that to get a free hit on it.

If, on turn 1, kang used crunch or some other coverage as you destiny bonded, it ko's your pokemon and both of you die.

252 Atk Life Orb Froslass Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 185-218 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 341-403 (97.1 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Froslass might be able to force Kangaskhan out with negative priority, but Kangaskhan can just switch out and come later.
And, Froslass can't switch in to Kangaskhan. So you need to sacrifice one pokemon for it to come in.

Mariachi Duck
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 195-231 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kangaskhan do not need to use PuP. Returns 2HKO Quagsire after Leftovers, has more PP than recover and Quagsire is slower than Kangaskhan.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Well, if you're a Froslass, you can alternate between Destiny Bond and Avalanche. Mega Kangaskhan can't PP stall you with ineffective attacks, because Avalanche kills it before Destiny Bond runs out of PP; the reduced priority means you get two turns of Destiny Bond for one use.

Of course now we're getting into ridiculously specific tailored movesets, but it's a fun way of using negative priority to beat Mega Kangaskhan.

Mega Banette can do a similar thing, alternating between priority Destiny Bond and an attack coming off of its horrid speed to have a constant state of Destiny Bond. Unfortunately, doing this requires you run either of Return, Double Edge or Gunk Shot in order to actually hit Khan for useful amount of damage.

 

[Salemance]

a@ Mariachi Duck While I will always be one the first people to applaud the use of Quagsire, I don't even think he can reliably check this thing.

I say this because I run a Quagsire on almost all my teams, and when it comes up against a Kang, it goes two ways:

they think its set up opportunity and prepares to use PUP as you use curse.

Or its one of the people who knows how to fight a Quagsire, and they proceed to just Return you to heck and back.

and the damage he does with a return assuming young have a boost up is massive, and assuming jolly, its about 55 to 65. I think then it becomes a possibly 2HKO. Adamant is easily a 2HKO. So yes I love him to death, but idk if he could truly do it.

EDIT: Oh silfan knew that too. Well ninja'd by me not reading that bit.

 

[Mariachi Duck]

You're both right; Quagsire can win after a Curse, but there's no way for him to get a Curse off against Khan unless she wastes a turn on PuP. Assuming opponent will make a mistake =/= counter. I'll keep thinking, but I don't think I will find anything better than Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn.

 

[Punchshroom]

For the record, the fast Destiny Bond user thing would only KO Mega-Kanga if the big mama Sucker Punches twice in a row, with the Destiny Bond user attempting to attack on the second turn. It's a nice way to put Mega-Kanga in a 'damn-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't' situation if it Sucker Punches 1st turn, allowing you to damage or draw with Mega-Kanga on the second turn, but if Mega-Kanga has another move other than Sucker Punch to hit your Ghost (Fire Punch) you have to cross your fingers that Mega-Kang doesn't go for it.

 

[UR2L8]

Another replay, guy disconnected, but it doesn't mean MKang wouldn't have destroyed the remainder of his team.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-68886460

Though this person did not have a Ghost type to work with and really should have Secret Sworded me with Keldeo, again this is here to demonstrate the brute force MKang brings to the table.

Same as last time, if you were my opponent there, what would you have done to stop MKang?
Also, think about if MKang weren't part of the equation, would my team still have the necessary tools to win against this opponent? Dipping into theorymon territory, but don't go too far.
For extra credit, in this battle, try and replace MKang with a Pokemon who might have been able to pull off the same effect in this battle.

 

[Xiammes]

What about Unaware Curse Quagsire?

Quagsire @ Unaware
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 DEF / 4 SpD
Nature: Relaxed
- Curse
- Recover
- Waterfall
- Earthquake

This set can take a P-uP for 10% or less after Lefties, ignores the boost while Return goes off, and then can out-heal Return damage thereafter with Recover. This is a boost war Kang can't win, and she's at least forced to switch.

After stealth rocks, it still gets 2hko'd by seismic toss variants who will be investing in extra bulk.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Banette does have Prankster on the turn it Mega Evolves. It has normal Banette's speed, but the Priority check comes after the mega evolution. When I said Shedinja is a check, I meant vs. EQ variants (which has an easier time dealing with bulky steels and Rocky Helmet). Kangaskhan might run Fire Punch, but certainly not Fire Blast; it's special attack is awful.

The issue is, that while every Megakang set has its counters, your battle going well depends on which Kang your opponent has and which one you planned to counter. If they don't line up, you're screwed. If they do line up, you're still likely saccing something to her to get her off the map.

Uhm no, it doesn't. The turn order is determined before attacks are selected, so Bannette DOESN'T have Prankster on the turn it Mega Evolves. Shedinja is never used in any tier aside from Ubers, and even there it's only niche is walling Kyogre and Xerneas. (And Defog Arceus helps it too). Mega Kangaskhan can definitely use Fire Blast to 2HKO Ferrothorn, Trevenant and Skarmory, even bypassing Rocky Helmet. It also OHKO's Forretress through Sturdy as well as Scizor. Also has a better chance to burn the opponent thanks to Parental Bond, worth noting. All of this without any investment (nature has to be Naughty though, but hardly makes a difference). Don't write it off just because it looks gimmicky, as long as it's viable you should take it into consideration.

 

[Dragontamer]

Another replay, guy disconnected, but it doesn't mean MKang wouldn't have destroyed the remainder of his team.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-68886460

Though this person did not have a Ghost type to work with and really should have Secret Sworded me with Keldeo, again this is here to demonstrate the brute force MKang brings to the table.

That match... was bad in many ways. But in regards to the Keldeo vs Khanga fight.

0 Atk Life Orb Keldeo Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 195-229 (55.5 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Keldeo Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 260-307 (74 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I've never heard of a 252 Atk Keldeo, but even if it were one... Mega Kang was still going to win that fight with Power-up Punch -> Sucker Punch.

Same as last time, if you were my opponent there, what would you have done to stop MKang?
Also, think about if MKang weren't part of the equation, would my team still have the necessary tools to win against this opponent? Dipping into theorymon territory, but don't go too far.
For extra credit, in this battle, try and replace MKang with a Pokemon who might have been able to pull off the same effect in this battle.

I'd cut out one of his `mon and put in a Sableye. You can't win vs MKang unless you're running two or more checks, and/or Sableye.

 

[Psydork]

I'm starting to think the only real counter to Megakhan as a whole is 4MSS.

I mean Choice Scarf Darmanitan was what I used to counter it, but if they run sucker punch or invest in Bulk it's useless.
Status Ghosts work well too, but if it carries crunch it decimates them.
It seems to have a possible coverage move that can KO anything it out-speeds.

I'm seriously getting the impression that Choice-Scarf imposter Ditto is the best bet to salvage the match once Khan comes in, but you've got to sacrifice 1 to work it. I suppose though, at leas then you get your own speedy sweeper without need for set-up. Call me an idiot, but I see MegaKhan probably going Uber.

 

[Chillarmy]

Chilled, that's probably because you're watching Yuttt, TFL, and myself mainly. Yuttt runs his Rhyperior/Skarm core, I run cofagrigus, and TFL runs sableye. All of us run rocky helmet skarmory to force damage on Khan.

But yes, it is tough for stall, simply because our 'counters' take massive amounts of damage and mainly rely on usage stats to determine what the khan will have. I get woefully destroyed by crunch, Yuttt would hate a Drain punch variant, and TFL probably is best off with all resists being sableye but is using a pokemon that doesn't have any bulk.

Just look at the calcs and how limited the top counters are. Really, Ferro (bar fire/drain punch) skarm (bar fire/drain), Sableye and Cofagrigus (can take crunch, does not enjoy it) are the best off counters. Four, and two determinant on the move pool. All other ghosts (bar perhaps spiritomb) are reliant on no crunch (and it could easily become a thing).

It might not even be that bad if there weren't four other really, really strong megas to worry about (them being Garchomp, Lucario, pinsir, Charizard X/Y). Right now, however, this overwhelming amount of power is way too much for most stall. Khan is just leading the way, and he is much more deadly than any other mega bar perhaps lucario.

Well first of all, I don't follow Youtubers, if that's what those players are (never really heard of them (frankly, I don't even know who you are)); it makes you look really ignorant when you assume that only a few stall players know how to combat Mega Kangaskhan. Second, stall teams don't rely on usage to determine what Mega Kang is using lmao. Most stall teams will be packing a spinblocker, or something at least capable of forcing Mega Kang to predict a bit (i.e, not Mega Evolving or using PuP from the get-go), and chances are that Pokemon will be coming in first; and at that point, because stall teams are generally very safe, it's not out of the ordinary for any player with at least half of a brain to switch in order to scout Mega Kang's coverage move. I really think that you're approaching this way too simplistically. Just because something can deal high amounts of damage doesn't mean that it breaks stall (just look at Haxorus!). Mega Kangaskhan won't to be switching into a team consisting of, say, Hippo / Blissey / Skarm / Jellicent / Amoonguss / Clefable without at least some kind of thought beforehand, and it's definitely capable of being stopped if it does happen to get some momentum. Furthermore, as far as synergy with other powerhouses goes, the aforementioned team shouldn't have too many problems with the Pokemon which offensively complement Mega Kang well. That said, I have my strongest doubts that any stall team not using something as useless as Rhyperior or Mega Aggron won't have trouble with Mega Pinsir, regardless of whether or not Mega Kang is around; however, that's another discussion for another thread.

I don't get why people are treating Mega Kangaskhan like it's capable of switching into everything and will always be able to end up at +2. It can and does get pressured and subsequently locked down like any big offensive threat we've faced in the past.

 

[I2edShift]

I'm starting to think the only real counter to Megakhan as a whole is 4MSS.

I mean Choice Scarf Darmanitan was what I used to counter it, but if they run sucker punch or invest in Bulk it's useless.
Status Ghosts work well too, but if it carries crunch it decimates them.
It seems to have a possible coverage move that can KO anything it out-speeds.

I'm seriously getting the impression that Choice-Scarf imposter Ditto is the best bet to salvage the match once Khan comes in, but you've got to sacrifice 1 to work it. I suppose though, at leas then you get your own speedy sweeper without need for set-up. Call me an idiot, but I see MegaKhan probably going Uber.

Hoping 4MSS matches up in a favorable way to you team composition is not a way to counter something with Mega Kanghas offensive presence, bulk, and solid speed. One you've figured out its whole set you've already sacked one of your 'Mons and your second is maybe half gone

*Removed stuff about Suspect testing*

 

[Orga777]

I'm starting to think the only real counter to Megakhan as a whole is 4MSS.

I mean Choice Scarf Darmanitan was what I used to counter it, but if they run sucker punch or invest in Bulk it's useless.
Status Ghosts work well too, but if it carries crunch it decimates them.
It seems to have a possible coverage move that can KO anything it out-speeds.

I'm seriously getting the impression that Choice-Scarf imposter Ditto is the best bet to salvage the match once Khan comes in, but you've got to sacrifice 1 to work it. I suppose though, at leas then you get your own speedy sweeper without need for set-up. Call me an idiot, but I see MegaKhan probably going Uber.

No, I think MKang should go to Uber, too. It is mostly for the same reasons Mega Gengar went to Ubers and why Blaziken is back in Ubers. The thing can set up rather safely with PuP, and then has +1/2 Sucker Punch/Crunch, EQ/Fire Punch, and STAB Return... all hitting twice. Most counters are going to be ravaged by this thing and it would probably end up costing the player TWO Pokemon just to get rid of Kanga since the counter will be hard to swap in and risking getting hit twice if Sucker Punch is not used, and would probably end up harshly damaged itself. I have faced so many of these things now and it is hard as hell to kill each and every time without a bit of luck, and usually only after it kills at least two of my Pokes in the process.

 

[NoahStar]

Has anyone tried using Terrakion to check Kanga? Terrakion easily outspeeds and OHKO's with Close Combat while the only thing Kanga can do is either switch out or Sucker Punch which will effectively give Terrakion a +2 thanks to Justified (the ability finally isn't completely worthless!).

I personally hate banning things. I believe that given enough time, people can find counters and ways around even the most threatening things. However, Mega Kanga may have to be put on suspect. It really can't be countered right now without losing 1-2 Pokemon in the process. Hopefully, players will find a way to deal with Kanga before its put on the chopping block.

 

[Orga777]

Has anyone tried using Terrakion to check Kanga? Terrakion easily outspeeds and OHKO's with Close Combat while the only thing Kanga can do is either switch out or Sucker Punch which will effectively give Terrakion a +2 thanks to Justified (the ability finally isn't completely worthless!).

I personally hate banning things. I believe that given enough time, people can find counters and ways around even the most threatening things. However, Mega Kanga may have to be put on suspect. It really can't be countered right now without losing 1-2 Pokemon in the process. Hopefully, players will find a way to deal with Kanga before its put on the chopping block.

The things is, yes, Terrakion may be a good counter, but M Kang can just switch out to something that can handle Terrakion like Scizor or Azumarill. And once Terrakion is gone, Kanga is still there as a late game sweeper against a weakened team, with most likely a Talonflame as back-up.