Item Assault Vest

[Jaroda]

20% may seem well and good but being able to not fear burns whatsoever lets you maintain momentum and Drain Punch Rotom-W right in the spin cycle. Giving your opponent fewer options and you less circumstances of being forced to switch is far superior to boosted punching moves. Especially since the punch moves themselves don't have amazing BP, and because of Drain Punch many opponents are actually downright forced to use Toxic or Burn. I'll never run Iron Fist personally.

 

[Ryolain]

I've been flipping between Guts and Iron Fist and I find Iron Fist more reliable. That way I don't have to lure out something with status and get a good switch into it in order to effectively threaten everything else that I want to switch him into.

 

[kizux]

Do you/most people find Guts to be inherently better than Iron Fist on AV Conkeldurr? I run him with Iron Fist because I prefer the immediate power increase and I usually have something to either take a status move or outright kill the status user before it becomes the issue. Though it is sad that Iron Fist does nothing to increase the power of Knock Off, it already OHKO's a majority of threats weak to it and does a number on others.

That really depends on what's prominent on the metagame on your side. I've seen a lot of people running bulky Rotom-W and prankster Sableye both with the mentality of burning and cripple physical threats. (Unless you're confident in a Heal Bell support)

 

[Ogami]

Guts on Conkeldurr is 1000 times better than iron fist or sheer force right now. Those power boosts are going to mean nothing when conk is burned, and that will happen very often in this meta. If status stops being one of the most common ways to fight physical threats then maybe the other abilities have a shot, but guts is so important to be able to continue going on a rampage long past the time most other physical threats can.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Assault Vest Slowking -> My way to deal with Lucario, Charizard X and more!
Slowking
@Assault Vest
Relaxed , Regenator
EV's: 252 HP / 248 Def+ / 8 S.Def
Scald
Flamethrower
Ice Beam
Dragon Tail

Before people try to convince me that Slowbro is better, I should emphasize how important Dragon Tail really is:
-You are dealing super effective damage on Charizard X and phaze it out
-It allows you to shuffle - each AV User should have in my opinion an utility move (Like Drain Punch, Knock Off)
-Psychic against fighting types usually isn't enough anyway (see AV Conkeldurr above)
-It's special defense with AV is HIGHER than a 252 252+ spread without AV !!
And of course it has reg. for recovery. I use it in Pokebank and it is pretty good to deal with stuff like M Lucario and Genesect and Charizards

 

[kizux]

-Psychic against fighting types usually isn't enough anyway (see AV Conkeldurr above)

That's why Psyshock exists and people tend to use it more on Special Attackers to have something to do against Special walls.
I'm running slowbro just to get the mixed defenses and it actually works out. And Regenerator is an amazing way of healing. As good as Dragon Tail is, I think I'm going to stay with my high defense over an utility move.

 

[Karmacharged]

Another guess of a candidate: Swalot

Pretty much, you may think that Swalot would be pretty terrible either way with a balanced 100/73/83; your (sort of) wrong.

Reasons why Swalot is such a badass with an Assault Vest:

1. (Like every Assault Vest user out there) Swalot has a number of viable moves: Power Up Punch, Infestation, Giga Drain (For Recovery), Bulldoze for those speed decreases, and Earthquake/Ice Beam for coverage; it doesn't have Knock Off, say, but atleast it has something to work with.
2. Since it has 100 HP, and if given enough EV's in either stats, Swalot will have a whopping 397.5 Sp Def (303, if I'm wrong sorry, shitty at calculating stats), and if you maxed out it's Def EVs', 436.5 Def; pretty much, those "balanced" stats now actually mean something now, making it more of a Pseudo-Goodra, and it's weakness to Psychic and Ground is 1/2 obliterated, especially with that high HP Count.
3. Infestation; it's so good, we had to list it twice! Pretty much, with Giga Drain and Infestation, he can become more of a Trapper, and leech off of others health (I.E: Switch into Water Types, and just suck away).
4. While a 73/73 in offense is sort of redundant, atleast you can mix up Swalot's movepool to either be a mixed attacker, Special Based, or Physical Base. (Just make sure that you added enough EV's to get those stats up, or otherwise, it won't hit as hard).
5. Poison may be only weak to Ground and Psychic, but it is the Fairy Type's Achilles Heel > Pretty much explains for itself; Swalot can team up perfectly with a Dragon Type, and can take a hit from a Fairy STAB easily (Just as long as said Fairy isn't named Florges, or Gardevoir. Otherwise, Psychic Spam, away).
6. Liquid Ooze; switch into a Grass Type Pokemon with Giga Drain, and watch the sparks fly. Bonus Points: Trap said Pokemon, and hit right back.

Swalot (Special)
@Assault Vest (duh)
Nature: Modest / Timid
EV's: 216 HP / 248 Def / 44 SpA
Ability: Liquid Ooze

- Sludge Bomb / Acid Spray
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam
- Infestation

OR..

Swalot (Physical)
@Assault Vest (derp)
Nature: Adamant / Jolly
EV's: 216 HP / 248 Def / 44 Atk
Ability: Liquid Ooze

- Gunk Shot
- Earthquake
- Insert Elemental Punch Here / Explosion (Last resort much, huh?)
- Power Up Punch

Any thoughts?

 

[Jaroda]

Swalot will be 2HKO from most things carrying Earthquake unless you invest heavily in Df, and even then he won't have recovery options. Weezing on the other hand has Levitate and 65/120/70 defenses, so bulky all around with max HP. He's probably better with WoW but with Assault Vest he CAN use Pain Split and Clear Smog so he'd be great at taking on bulky sweepers.

EDIT:Ack crud, you're right, I forgot Pain Split wasn't an attack. Ignore. Thank you TheEpicBro

 

[mertyville]

Looking at a pokemon with a decent bulk and insane amount of (offensive) moves it can learn, I believe Mew is a very suitable user of Assult West.

Notable Moves:
Scalt
Ice Beam
Super Fang
Superpower
Power up Punch
Fault Play
Drain Punch
U-Turn
Volt Switch
Knock off
Sucker Punch
etc.

 

[Exeggutive]

Looking at a pokemon with a decent bulk and insane amount of (offensive) moves it can learn, I believe Mew is a very suitable user of Assult West.

Notable Moves:
Scalt
Ice Beam
Super Fang
Superpower
Power up Punch
Fault Play
Drain Punch
U-Turn
Volt Switch
Knock off
Sucker Punch
etc.

The thing is though AV benefits mons who not only have the offensive movepool, but also lack the support movepool best.(mostly no recovery moves or good status moves)

Mew will always fall into the Jack of all trades-master of none group. Mostly from average base stats across the board. Ya it's good but is it worth using over other good AVers who can do similar things (like torn-t, conk, slowbro, etc) better because they have better stats, ability or typing. Further more, will AV mew do things that regular mew can't? Cause the only reason to use mew is his support move options like defog, softboiled, wisp, taunt.

 

[Always!]

Swalot will be 2HKO from most things carrying Earthquake unless you invest heavily in Df, and even then he won't have recovery options. Weezing on the other hand has Levitate and 65/120/70 defenses, so bulky all around with max HP. He's probably better with WoW but with Assault Vest he CAN use Pain Split and Clear Smog so he'd be great at taking on bulky sweepers.

Wait, he can use Pain Split with AV?

Pretty sure thats not possible.

 

[Jaroda]

I think somebody mentioned it a long time ago but Meloetta is a peculiar and interesting option.

Meloetta@Assault Vest
Serene Grace
Jolly 4 HP / 252 At / 252 Spd
~ Relic Song
~ Drain Punch
~ Knock Off
~ Last Resort/Ice Punch/Return/Close Combat

This is pretty much a super fast Conkeldurr but with a Ghost immunity and Fighting weakness. Before Relic Song you actually have base 128 SpD meaning you're pretty damn beefy for switching into special attacks. Once they see how little damage you do you get a Relic Song on the switch and get to abuse 128 Spd and Atk. Your defenses change to 100/90/77 which is pretty comparable to Conkeldurr overall (105/95/65). Being faster than even Greninja means you get a super effective Drain Punch if he switches in, and Drain Punch + Knock off is a great combo as we all know with only Fairy resisting both. Your last slot you have options. Considering you have to use Relic Song first it isn't unreasonable to think you could use Drain Punch and Knock Off too giving you access to STAB Last Resort, which with 140 BP outpowers even STAB Close Combat. CC is still there as an option for when you just have to KO something that Drain Punch can't, albeit the defense drops are counterintuitive in conjunction with Assault Vest. STAB Return is a good neutral attack for hitting Fairies otherwise, and then of course there's Ice Punch for Gliscor and other 4x weaknesses.

Having to transform first could be seen as either positive or negative. While your speed will be back in the 90 tier, your much improved SpD makes you a far safer switch in to special moves in the first place, which is kind of the purpose of the vest. Being forced to use a move slot on Relic Song can be seen as a negative as well, although with Serene Grace you do have a 20% chance of putting your target to sleep.

If you don't want max speed, Adamant with full speed lets you speed tie with Mega Lucario, who will likely use priority anyway, and you'll still outrun base 111s and below. Similarly a Jolly spread with 152 Spd EVs puts you one point higher than that and you can put the rest into a defense stat of your choice at the cost of max attack. Overall not bad though.

 

[Ogami]

I'm definitely interested in that build.

I think outspeeding Mega-Luc is a good idea with Meloetta-P. Sure they'll probably go for priority but you can take that at a high enough health. Close combat is a different story, though so it's probably good to be safe against him. That also isn't too much more speed than outspeeding 110's anyways, which would be another good benchmark. 128 with a Jolly nature should accomplish that, with the rest being able to put in HP, but I'm looking into seeing if that extra 128 adds any relevant 2hkos to special attacking coverage, with Thunderbolt being my main curiosity. Switching back to Meloetta on Gliscor/Landorus and other physical walls or intimidate users also seems like an interesting option.

While the sleep chance isn't the part of the move the build relies on, that 20% chance is brutal, and if you can be firing off 2-3 a match you're going to see a lot of sleeps. While less likely, it's the most crippling scald ever, which is a nice touch to an AV user. I like it.

Here are some interesting calcs for 128 Special Attack Meloetta P and Meloetta for one using Relic Song/Thunderbolt alongside drain punch/knock off

128 SpA Meloetta Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 356-420 (107.2 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

128 SpA Meloetta-P Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 248-292 (74.6 - 87.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

With thunderbolt you lose less immediate coverage against ground/flyers that would wall your set, but relic song is an interesting option for that while gyarados is a very scary thing to give a set up opportunity to.

Thunderbolt turns you into a really good way to protect your rocks from the premier defoggers of the meta.

252 Atk Meloetta-P Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 252-298 (83.4 - 98.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Meloetta-P Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 228-270 (75.4 - 89.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

128 SpA Meloetta-P Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 164-194 (49.1 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery



128 SpA Meloetta-P Relic Song vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 79-94 (18.6 - 22.1%)

128 SpA Meloetta Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 186-220 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

if you see the Mandibuzz switch coming in on Meloetta, you can go for a relic song/thunderbolt combo and leave mandibuzz hanging on for dear life if they went for the defog.

You don't have much for Scizor, besides relic songing for sleep or maybe trying to win the fight with drain punch, but a lot of defog scizor are going physically defensive now so that's a losing battle.

This is all made much better if these pokes are switching into Meloetta or Meloetta P. I'm not sure how often or easily that can be set up with rocks out now.

 

[Jaroda]

The problem is if you're switching into Mega Lucario you need to use Relic Song first before you can outspeed leaving you bait for Close Combat. If he switches into you, you will always be faster even with Adamant if he hasn't Megavolved first, and Adamant Drain Punch will always OHKO standard Luke. Jolly has a very good chance to do the same, at least 80%, but still not guaranteed even with Stealth Rock thanks to the 4x resist. If he is already Megavolved and you're in P form than Jolly will be at a slight disadvantage to Luke if he took no prior damage. Knowing Meloetta-P's speed in this circumstance he'd somehow have to know you were Adamant to risk using CC and doing no damage to you. Vacuum Wave or Bullet Punch seem far more likely in this scenario. Honestly Adamant is a pretty safe bet overall if you don't mind not outspeeding, say, Greninja and Mega Absol.

What nature are those calcs with? Jolly or something like Naughty? Thunderbolt does have a nice 20% chance to paralyze, but why not risk Thunder at this point for the extra damage and 60% paralysis chance? One Thunder in combination with Drain Punch will do it still.

0 SpA Meloetta-P Thunder vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 180-212 (55.04 - 64.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Risk vs reward but for Serene Grace users the reward tends to outweigh the risk considering you'll never OHKO most things with Thunderbolt anyway.

EDIT: Previous calc was done with Melo not Melo-P. Still a good 2HKO either way with that Naughty nature, Adamant will lower it to a 56% chance or so to 2HKO.

 

[Ogami]

The Mega-Luc argument is very compelling, and Melotta-P would really enjoy the boost in damage to ensure kills on Latios/Latias as psyshock is mighty dangerous. They were calculated with a Hasty nature as i thought defense was the least needed stat for that build.

Yaknow, I though about thunder right after I posted all that and I definitely like it with serene grace. I generally try to stay away from the focus miss accuracy range but it's definitely a risk vs reward thing. With serene grace I feel like maybe it tips in thunder's favor. That extra base power is huge since it's only being used to hit things for SE damage AND Meloetta could invest in more bulk. I like that a lot.

As for things like greninja, that's what AV is for so I don't see them outspeeding and then getting demolished by drain punch as a bad thing.

 

[Jaroda]

Well the whole point about Greninja was being able to outspeed and avoid damage altogether. Sure you can tank 2 of Greninja's attacks, you'll just be at leass HP afterwards but the Adamant boost is still likely more worthwhile overall. Especially since Jolly isn't outspeeding anything that would normally carry a scarf anyway.

The way I see it for Thunder is if Thunderbolt couldn't OHKO in the first place and barely 2HKO than Thunder's paralysis chance makes up for the shaky accuracy and has the potential for more OHKOs overall depending on the opponent.

 

[Ogami]

After looking at more calcs Adamant definitely seems like the preferred nature to make sure it gets the kills it needs to. I hear you on outspeeding greninja, but I feel like guaranteeing kills on things like the Latii twins and Lucario that switch in on you are really important. How do you feel about using a lonely nature? Defense is the least used stat, and would make relic song/thunder more tempting options.

 

[Jaroda]

You'd have to do calculations against standard priority moves like Azumarill, Conkeldurr and Scizor. If any of those outright kill you than it is probably not worth it overall. I think I agree on max/max with Adamant nature.

 

[Ogami]

Honestly all of this talk about damage calcs makes me feel like this version of meloetta would enjoy a life orb more so it can run jolly and still get the ko's it wants and outspeed greninja

Even an Expert Belt would get the job done since a lot of these damage concerns are for SE hits

 

[Jaroda]

I was thinking the same. It's odd because that item distinction alone changes it either from really destructive to really bulky. But if you're running Life Orb you might as well forego Drain Punch for Close Combat, ya know? AV+Drain Punch is such a brilliant combo, particularly with STAB, if you want her to hang around I think Assault Vest is a really good option for her, just not necessarily her BEST set. I think that's the distinction to make. Like, Conk is the best user of AV at this point it seems, but does it outclass its Bulk Up set with Leftovers? That's highly debatable.

 

[silenced]

Seconding the interest in the meloetta spread, but I'd slash CC with drain punch. No need to double up on fighting coverage IMO. For the last slot, last resort is a bit too situational so I'd have return for STAB, but also slash U-turn so as to offer more momentum grabbing opportunities/getting out of the way of faeries.

 

[Ogami]

Yeah the item change does so much to the build. You did bring up a good point earlier that Meloetta-P has very similiar defenses to conk. Conk was definitely still scary and hard to get off the field before assault vest, and an expert belt wouldn't compromise health, leaving drain punch as a way to keep her around. Probably the power in CC is more ideal for this, but drain punch is such a dangerous fighting move. Having fighting stab that doesn't make itself more vulnerable like CC can be hard for some teams to stop in a timely manner, which could be devastating with thunders and relic songs potentially being thrown around.

 

[Ryolain]

If we're going to compare Meleotta's bulk to Conk's, shouldn't she be investing in HP? If not she's not going to take hits nearly as well. She also doesn't have a stat she can really afford to drop via nature since she wants a mixed set for coverage but she doesn't really want to lose bulk either, otherwise AV is kind of counterintuitive.

 

[Jaroda]

I considered U-Turn but the problem is it isn't particularly powerful since you need to Relic Song first to benefit from the better Attack stat. I figure if you're going to run AV then its best to run as many useful attack options as possible and let pokes like Landorus-T or Scizor worry about the scouting. I also don't see the point personally in slashing CC with Drain Punch if you're going to use AV since you might as well use Life Orb for the power if you aren't going to use Drain Punch. Either got full longevity or full offensive, don't bother compromising. I only listed CC at the bottom in case something threatening can be defeated outright that Drain Punch could not.

If we're going to compare Meleotta's bulk to Conk's, shouldn't she be investing in HP? If not she's not going to take hits nearly as well. She also doesn't have a stat she can really afford to drop via nature since she wants a mixed set for coverage but she doesn't really want to lose bulk either, otherwise AV is kind of counterintuitive.

The main difference between the two is Melo's huge advantage in speed. Why invest in HP when the speed allows you to outpace many threats that Conk cant and avoid damage altogether? The fact is the base stats remain comparable and the way Melo's are laid out we want to capitalize on that added speed. Like I said you can goJolly with X amount of speed EVs to put into HP if you wish but the compromise to her attack is pretty damn high. Not to mention since you switch in as regular Meloetta your significantly higher SpD means you''ll preserve far more HP every time in the initial switch into special attacks.

 

[Shroomisaur]

Just going to chime in here to say that I messed around with AV Meloetta myself 4-5 days ago, and it wasn't very impressive. I used a set of Relic Song / Drain Punch / Knock Off / U-Turn that looks great on paper, because it has good stats and doesn't rely on status moves. Unfortunately there are a few problems that really hurt the idea.

The most obvious is that you need to burn a turn using Relic Song to transform and gain the higher Speed/Attack stats that an AV set needs. The second problem is that if you spend all your EVs in 252 Atk / 252 Spe, you don't have anything left to invest in bulk, and uninvested 100/90/77 isn't exactly impressive (even with AV). Conkeldurr will have far more Attack and Defenses.

If you're going to spend a turn transforming, you need to make the most of those 128/128 offensive stats. Offensive Mel should simply run Life Orb to maximize its power rather than trying to tank hits with 128 base speed. AV is interesting, but Meloetta is such an unusual Pokemon and I don't think it works very well.