Pokémon Venusaur

[stoneyesquire]

What makes M-Venasaur so great isn't just his offensive capabilities, but his defensive stats matched with his offensive power. Synthesis (a reliable form of recovery) helps accentuate M-Venasaur as a tanky pokemon. I'd say Synthesis is THE most important move for M-Venasaur to have. Coverage is nice and all, but it shouldn't supersede the necessity of healing for a pokemon such as M-Vensaur. He can definitely take a hit and Synthesis allows him to stick around for a while.

even when i did the standard physical/special defensive (and mixed) that this thread suggests, using appropriate personality and everything. synthesis did nothing but use up the other players PP. or i could take the hit and counter and kill it with better coverage.

like i said maybe im using it wrong, but everytime ive put synthesis on his moveset it either sits there with me staring at it or i use it and simply have venu die a turn later or maybe 3 with no way to offensively attack.

 

[zachmac]

even when i did the standard physical/special defensive (and mixed) that this thread suggests, using appropriate personality and everything. synthesis did nothing but use up the other players PP. or i could take the hit and counter and kill it with better coverage.

How much do you swap out?

The only explanation I can think of for Synthesis being useless is if you're not swapping out Venusuar any and keeping it in on pokemon that do around 50% damage to it. If you're only using it against pokemon it counters(Rotom-W, Azumaril), then Synthesis makes is last so, so much longer.

 

[stoneyesquire]

How much do you swap out?

The only explanation I can think of for Synthesis being useless is if you're not swapping out Venusuar any and keeping it in on pokemon that do around 50% damage to it. If you're only using it against pokemon it counters(Rotom-W, Azumaril), then Synthesis makes is last so, so much longer.

i switch out vs flying/psychic attackers automatically. outside of that not always. so say i switch in on a rotom wash, eat some damage, then they either volt turn or hard switch...now i either switch out because they have a pokemon with a good flying/psychic attack in wich case...i dont use synthesis, or i stay and use synthesis repeatedly trying to survive the power stab moves being sent my way, because if i dont, will i be able to take 2? and if they switched in a pokemon that i can take 3+ attacks from they are either already losing...so no reason for synthesis, or they are playing poorly/have a poor team.

again i could just suck...

 

[zachmac]

i switch out vs flying/psychic attackers automatically. outside of that not always. so say i switch in on a rotom wash, eat some damage, then they either volt turn or hard switch...now i either switch out because they have a pokemon with a good flying/psychic attack in wich case...i dont use synthesis, or i stay and use synthesis repeatedly trying to survive the power stab moves being sent my way, because if i dont, will i be able to take 2? and if they switched in a pokemon that i can take 3+ attacks from they are either already losing...so no reason for synthesis, or they are playing poorly/have a poor team.

That explains things.

Don't use synthesis against pokemon Venusaur can't beat otherwise. That does nothing for you. You it against pokemon in which it will heal it more then the foe will hurt it. Continue using 'Saur like you usually do, and when it gets down to say, 40% HP, use Synthesis against something it counters, like Azumarill or Rotom-W. Sure, they'll swap out, but next time you face Venusaur's counter, it'll be at 80% or 90% health, ready to swap in.

You don't use it to delay inevitable death, you use it so it can continue to guard your team from the things it does check. That's how recovery moves are generally used anyway.

 

[farranpoison]

i switch out vs flying/psychic attackers automatically. outside of that not always. so say i switch in on a rotom wash, eat some damage, then they either volt turn or hard switch...now i either switch out because they have a pokemon with a good flying/psychic attack in wich case...i dont use synthesis, or i stay and use synthesis repeatedly trying to survive the power stab moves being sent my way, because if i dont, will i be able to take 2? and if they switched in a pokemon that i can take 3+ attacks from they are either already losing...so no reason for synthesis, or they are playing poorly/have a poor team.

again i could just suck...

Why would you recover against mons that threaten you?

You recover against mons that can't do beans to you.

 

[stoneyesquire]

That explains things.

Don't use synthesis against pokemon Venusaur can't beat otherwise. That does nothing for you. You it against pokemon in which it will heal it more then the foe will hurt it. Continue using 'Saur like you usually do, and when it gets down to say, 40% HP, use Synthesis against something it counters, like Azumarill or Rotom-W. Sure, they'll swap out, but next time you face Venusaur's counter, it'll be at 80% or 90% health, ready to swap in.

You don't use it to delay inevitable death, you use it so it can continue to guard your team from the things it does check. That's how recovery moves are generally used anyway.

but more then once i was able to use one of my 4 coverage moves to ohko the thing that did 50%+ damage to me. but maybe thats a poor strategy.

from your description and my experience it sounds like synthesis is either win more, or lose slower depending on how its used. but i guess ill keep trying it. im always annoyed when i dont have the coverage i need and am forced to hard switch out.

 

[farranpoison]

uhm, honest question here...why wouldnt i just beat them?

Because unless your opponent is an absolute idiot, they'll switch out when they see Megasaur. So you should use that time to recover if you're at low health.

Opponent has Azumarill out, you switch in Megasaur. Your Megasaur tanks the hit and is around 30/40% health. If the opponent is smart, they'll switch and you'll Synthesis for a large amount of health, allowing your Megasaur to switch in again at later times. Or if they don't switch, you'll recover and get hit by some shitty move that can't hurt you. So in the end you'll still get more health then you lost. It's a win-win.

 

[stoneyesquire]

i asked an honest question, it was not inflammatory, rude, or unjust

 

[stoneyesquire]

Because unless your opponent is an absolute idiot, they'll switch out when they see Megasaur. So you should use that time to recover if you're at low health.

Opponent has Azumarill out, you switch in Megasaur. Your Megasaur tanks the hit and is around 30/40% health. If the opponent is smart, they'll switch and you'll Synthesis for a large amount of health, allowing your Megasaur to switch in again at later times. Or if they don't switch, you'll recover and get hit by some shitty move that can't hurt you. So in the end you'll still get more health then you lost. It's a win-win.

see thats why i like the 4 coverage moves, most of the time its easy enough to predict the switch and use a attack that would be damaging to the switched in pokemon.

now that its explained i see the merit, but it seems not entirely effective, ill try it either way tho.

 

[farranpoison]

see thats why i like the 4 coverage moves, most of the time its easy enough to predict the switch and use a attack that would be damaging to the switched in pokemon.

now that its explained i see the merit, but it seems not entirely effective, ill try it either way tho.

Without recovery, Megasaur can't do what it's supposed to do, which is tank hits. Sure, you can hit with coverage moves, but if uninvested they're not going to do much. The whole point of Megasaur is a tank that can wall most of the metagame and has access to recovery to allow it to stay throughout the game. If you want an attacker, you might want to looks somewhere else.

 

[stoneyesquire]

Without recovery, Megasaur can't do what it's supposed to do, which is tank hits. Sure, you can hit with coverage moves, but if uninvested they're not going to do much. The whole point of Megasaur is a tank that can wall most of the metagame and has access to recovery to allow it to stay throughout the game. If you want an attacker, you might want to looks somewhere else.

perhaps but ive yet to find one that does as well (attack that is) also as i said when im not trying to make the builds here work, i use a special sweeper set with hidden power fire, sludge bomb, giga drain, then EQ for things like heatran.

i dont doubt peoples math or research or experienc eon here, wich is part of the reason im trying to understand. ive considered maybe im supposed to be using chlorophyll stand venusaur as it would be faster, but im not invested towards that end yet.

 

[Edgar81539]

perhaps but ive yet to find one that does as well (attack that is) also as i said when im not trying to make the builds here work, i use a special sweeper set with hidden power fire, sludge bomb, giga drain, then EQ for things like heatran.

i dont doubt peoples math or research or experienc eon here, wich is part of the reason im trying to understand. ive considered maybe im supposed to be using chlorophyll stand venusaur as it would be faster, but im not invested towards that end yet.

You're using MVenusaur to something it clearly isn't tailored to. If you want a sweeper, go ahead and use Clorophyll Venusaur. MVenusaur is a tank. It takes hits and hits hard back, it isn't going to sweep anytime.

 

[FrostFire]

Re. Synthesis => I've actually been using Protect > Synthesis, and it's been working out really well. Using a physically defensive tank set of Giga Drain/ Leech Seed/ Toxic/ Protect, you generally get all the healing you need (via leech/ protect), and allows you to stall out leech seed/ toxic damage. It also does some other nifty things like get saur into Mega forme safely and scout out choiced mons (pretty good against CB Talonflame).

Probably my only general gripe about MegaSaur is dat 4MSS. Generally speaking, tanking sets want to run: Giga Drain, Leech Seed, Synthesis, Toxic, Sleep Powder; excluding other tangential options like Earthquake and Protect (Stun Spore too, I suppose?). Venusaur-M is really great though, and nice to have a solid answer to Genesect/ Rotom-W Volt-Turn.

 

[guustavooo]

Re. Synthesis => I've actually been using Protect > Synthesis, and it's been working out really well. Using a physically defensive tank set of Giga Drain/ Leech Seed/ Toxic/ Protect, you generally get all the healing you need (via leech/ protect), and allows you to stall out leech seed/ toxic damage. It also does some other nifty things like get saur into Mega forme safely and scout out choiced mons (pretty good against CB Talonflame).

Probably my only general gripe about MegaSaur is dat 4MSS. Generally speaking, tanking sets want to run: Giga Drain, Leech Seed, Synthesis, Toxic, Sleep Powder; excluding other tangential options like Earthquake and Protect (Stun Spore too, I suppose?). Venusaur-M is really great though, and nice to have a solid answer to Genesect/ Rotom-W Volt-Turn.

Wait, how exactly is MegaSaur an answer to Genesect?

 

[vayu]

Wait, how exactly is MegaSaur an answer to Genesect?

genesect cannot damage megasuar at all

 

[guustavooo]

genesect cannot damage megasuar at all

Err... Iron Head can do solid damage and MegaSaur can't do anything back to Genesect.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

+1 252 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 156-184 (42.8 - 50.5%)
Genesect does just fine against sp def venusaur but loses against modest variants with hp fire and phys def variants. Not exactly a reliable check but it still beats the most common venusaur set.

 

[guustavooo]

+1 252 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 156-184 (42.8 - 50.5%)
Genesect does just fine against sp def venusaur but loses against modest variants with hp fire and phys def variants. Not exactly a reliable check but it still beats the most common venusaur set.

Exactly, making MegaSaur not an answer to Genesect.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Exactly, making MegaSaur not an answer to Genesect.

Genesect doesn't always have the Atk boost. Also there's Genesect that don't run max Atk, but instead run max SpAtk. Also, 1 vs 1 Genesect loses unless it can flinch Mega Venusaur. It gets outstalled by Leech Seed and Synthesis. That calc only proves that specially defensive MegaSaur can't safely come in on a +1 Iron Head from physically based ScarfSect. In all other cases, Genesect loses because Venusaur either runs Def EV's, Genesect doesn't get the Atk boost, Mega Venusaur lives two hits and puts you to sleep, it has HP Fire, and so on.

I fail to see how Mega Venusaur is not an answer to Genesect.

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

It's interesting to look at team options for various pokemon now that the metagame's starting to flatten out a bit, and since I've been trying to work out a team to try Mega-Venusaur with, I've been looking a lot at Pokemon that help Mega-Venusaur fit into a team.

The first pokemon that I've looked to is Heatran; Heatran possesses a lot of awesome qualities that allow it to work really well with M-Venusaur. Not only does Heatran resist both of M-Saur's weaknesses (psychic and flying), but it also provides a counter for two of the most problematic pokemon for Mega-Venusaur: Genesect, who can't really do anything aside from Thunderbolt Heatran, and Talonflame, who, while threatening to set up on Venusaur, is countered hard by Heatran (especially ancientpower varients of Heatran, if one feels so inclined). Heatran also fits into the same sort of playstyle as M-Saur, providing a useful component to Bulky Offense or Balanced teams.

Steel types in general provide both psychic and flying resists, making them good team partners. Another pokemon who might be of interest would be Bisharp, who has the capability to absolutely destroy sticky web reliant teams thanks to defiant + sucker punch alongside an extremely powerful knock off (if switched in against a team with Sticky Web, choice Band Bisharp's knock off is powerful enough to 2HKO Tyranitar, even though Ttar resists).

It's also interesting to pair M-Venu with a pokemon who can reliably lure in and KO Tyranitar, who represents a major problem bringing Sand Stream to limit Venusaur's recovery and it's colossal special defense (especially with assault vest). Again, Bisharp seems like a possible candidate with Iron Head; although it can't lure Ttar in, it can easily dispatch it. A classic choice band scizor fills much the same roll. I can't think up anything off the top of my head to lure in and hit Ttar particularly hard (although Toxic is a fairly good answer for TTar on M-Venu). You could try a specs Rotom-H with Hidden Power Fighting, but it would probably be situational and gimmicky.

 

[Turbopasta]

Besides Talonflame, what beats M-Venusaur?

 

[Leica]

Besides Talonflame, what beats M-Venusaur?

Offensive LO Deo-S comes really close but just misses out on an OHKO with Psycho Boost, probably not the best answer but I've been having trouble myself and I happened to use that and it works after some hazard damage etc.

Latios deals with him OK too.

 

[Turbopasta]

Offensive LO Deo-S comes really close but just misses out on an OHKO with Psycho Boost, probably not the best answer but I've been having trouble myself and I happened to use that and it works after some hazard damage etc.

He's a serious problem for my team comp in wifi 3v3. Every time I fight one I either barely win or lose by a huge margin. I'm trying not to use Talonflame since I already have a pretty big rock weakness. A hard check/counter to him has to be able to do all the following:

1. Can avoid sleep powder. Possibilities: grass pokemon, magic bounce, fast substitute, taunt, lum/chesto berry, protect+toxic/flame orb guts pokemon, insomnia, magic coat
2. Can 2HKO Mega Venusaur possibly with leech seed recovery. Possibilities: Pokemon with strong psychic/flying moves OR mold-breaker pokemon with fire/ice moves (which don't really exist outside of Haxorus so it doesn't matter much anyways)
3. Can survive Mega Venusaur's offensive moves while also doing damage. Possibilities: Anything tanky enough to survive his attacks, but strong enough to at least 2HKO
4. Can survive residual damage from Leech Seed or avoid it completely. Possibilities: grass pokemon, magic bounce, magic guard, magic coat, recovery pokemon, taunt, fast subsitute

Unless I'm missing something, the counter basically has to be able to do all that to really be effective vs M-Venusaur. I honestly feel like M-Venusaur is just as uber as M-Kanga tbh

 

[-NLMRY-]

252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venusaur: 186-222 (51 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Espeon Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Venusaur: 236-278 (64.8 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Besides Talonflame, what beats M-Venusaur?

Getting a burn on Mega Venusaur really puts a damper on its survivability, which is one reason I think Will-O-Wisp is worth using on Heatran now. Other than that, your best bet is to threaten it with Flying and Psychic attacks, or with something that can Taunt and proceed to stall it out.

For what it's worth, a hard counter to every Mega Venusaur variant is Reuniclus, who does not get 2HKO'd by anything it has, and is also immune to Leech Seed.