Heatran is not weak to SR...
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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Heatran is not weak to SR...
Fire types aren't the only things that resist Fire, right? Latias, Slowbro, Jellicent, Garchomp, Keldeo, Gastrodon, etc. also, Heatran is a thing.
You realize Elektross was NU last gen, right? Abomasnow is so much better than Elektross it isn't funny, ie Blizzard, STaB Giga Drain, more than one resistance.
Ok I shouldn't have been posting this late at night... Yeah there are many viable mons to work with abomasnow. I would have a counter argument but I need to sleep.
Eelektross is a very anti-meta mon IMO but I'm getting off track and I'm not gonna defend eelektross when I'm this sleepy. Abomasnow hits hard and can cover itself well with 3 moves and priority but lacks the power and speed to make it a sweeper and requires a lot of prediction by the user to avoid giga draining a talon flame or blizzarding a rotom-W. IMO the value of potentially wall breaking a ferrothorn or a blissey or a mega venasaur is outweighed by the potential for abomasnow to not do anything useful for a team which can happen if it is surprised by fire type move And it feels like complete deadweight when facing hyper offensive teams because of its weaknesses.
Eelektross is a very anti-meta mon IMO but I'm getting off track and I'm not gonna defend eelektross when I'm this sleepy. Abomasnow hits hard and can cover itself well with 3 moves and priority but lacks the power and speed to make it a sweeper and requires a lot of prediction by the user to avoid giga draining a talon flame or blizzarding a rotom-W. IMO the value of potentially wall breaking a ferrothorn or a blissey or a mega venasaur is outweighed by the potential for abomasnow to not do anything useful for a team which can happen if it is surprised by fire type move And it feels like complete deadweight when facing hyper offensive teams because of its weaknesses.
Considering the state of the ladder, plenty of people are frustrated with running those mons and proceeded to run pure garbage for the sake of it and see how far they can get. Entrainment Durant, Baton pass to a Castform or Delcatty, Delibird-based teams, all kind of shit is around now by good players using alts just for the sake of it. I am one of those people myself, and played plenty of games in Pokébank OU and just a few in current OU, only using a team with Ledian on it and other things residing not in OU.
Screw Genesect, bury MegaLuke under twenty feet of soil and blast everything else that is OU. Frustration galore!
The fact that too many broken things were just released like that caused people to run around with shitty gimmicks and joke teams, I encountered quite a few of those in the past few days.
As such, I can't really say much about the viability of current OU or Gen V OU mons (bar that I despise using them because they aren't fun on the ladder), but can really say that so many previous NU mons are extremely underestimated in how much they can check and counter and otherwise screw over, even though they are likely going to end up in NU again this generation, I see them all having their niches in OU (D rank / C- rank, mostly)
Eelektross is underestimated in every tier it resides in, and will need dedicated support to function in higher tiers. Eelektross has ridiculous coverage and can wreck basically everything if given a boost. Needs Baton Pass support because it can't boost itself on the special side, whereas physical sets need Heal Bell support, but it can muscle through Blissey without SE hits or boosting even if only running Special attacks thanks to Acid Spray, which is ridiculous. It can also run Superpower on a mixed set which also nukes Blissey.
Furthermore, there is absolutely nothing that can counter Eelektross more than once. Excadrill can switch into Flamethrower once but certainly not twice, and other Earthquake users can't even hit it for SE damage at all.
Eelektross has a defensive Coil set, an Acid Spray set, a defensive set with Roar and Toxic and T-Wave, a Choiced pivot set with U-Turn and/or Volt Switch. There are only very few offensive moves it doesn't have but also misses some moves that could be useful.
However, as I said, it has its flaws like its low speed as well as Excadrill and various others, and as such needs a LOT of support. I suggest it to be put in D-rank.
Now, I'll bring in some suggestions of my own. D-rank is so empty but so many mons have their uses to be put in there. I suggest Exploud, Golem and Mismagius for D-rank
Exploud: STAB Boomburst, all you need. It is also a solid check to Garchomp and many other mons, being bulky enough to tank a hit and deal solid damage back.
But it isn't without (a whole host) of flaws, like being relatively frail if it comes to taking boosted attacks or SE attacks, it is pretty slow, and only 91 Base SpA makes sure its coverage moves won't do much damage without a boost (and Exploud has no boosting moves at all), making Boomburst somewhat predictable and abuseable. Baton Pass support is very helpful for Exploud, whatever it may be, a Quiver Dance or a Shell Smash, and it's going to wreck house on the spot. Exploud's Boomburst can hit Ghosts thanks to Scrappy, which is great, though; specially defensive Ghosts are absolutely uncapable of switching into Exploud without being in grave danger.
Golem: Checking half the metagame as long as Sturdy is active (and a significant number even without Sturdy) and countering Talonflame cannot be underestimated. It has enough attack to hurt a lot (Earthquake, Rock Blast, Sucker Punch, Fire Punch/Explosion/Stealth Rock), and it won't invest in Speed but will in HP, allowing it to take significant punishment on the physical side. Just don't let it get hit by Grass/Water attacks.
It needs support though, it does not want its Sturdy to be broken by hazards especially if running Lum Berry instead of Leftovers. Wish support is also great. But Golem has very serious flaws of which you need to be aware, but if used correctly it is still a powerful asset.
Mismagius: Gengar, just slightly worse stats. It lacks the advantages and also the disadvantages of the Poison-typing, has Power Gem instead of Focus Blast (if you need a fast ghost that isn't set-up fodder for Volcarona/ZardY), and is somewhat less frail on the Special side, but has to pay with slightly less Special attack and Speed.
But it can do anything Gengar does otherwise. Also, unlike Gengar, Mismagius beats Landorus if it attempts to check while SR is in play, so there's that as well (a Spooky Plate or Life Orb on Missy is recommended though).
A slightly different variant of Gengar, usually outclassed by it (as Gengar and Mismagius have the same flaws but Mismagius is slightly slower and weaker), but still having its own minor niche.
Screw Genesect, bury MegaLuke under twenty feet of soil and blast everything else that is OU. Frustration galore!
The fact that too many broken things were just released like that caused people to run around with shitty gimmicks and joke teams, I encountered quite a few of those in the past few days.
As such, I can't really say much about the viability of current OU or Gen V OU mons (bar that I despise using them because they aren't fun on the ladder), but can really say that so many previous NU mons are extremely underestimated in how much they can check and counter and otherwise screw over, even though they are likely going to end up in NU again this generation, I see them all having their niches in OU (D rank / C- rank, mostly)
Eelektross is underestimated in every tier it resides in, and will need dedicated support to function in higher tiers. Eelektross has ridiculous coverage and can wreck basically everything if given a boost. Needs Baton Pass support because it can't boost itself on the special side, whereas physical sets need Heal Bell support, but it can muscle through Blissey without SE hits or boosting even if only running Special attacks thanks to Acid Spray, which is ridiculous. It can also run Superpower on a mixed set which also nukes Blissey.
Furthermore, there is absolutely nothing that can counter Eelektross more than once. Excadrill can switch into Flamethrower once but certainly not twice, and other Earthquake users can't even hit it for SE damage at all.
Eelektross has a defensive Coil set, an Acid Spray set, a defensive set with Roar and Toxic and T-Wave, a Choiced pivot set with U-Turn and/or Volt Switch. There are only very few offensive moves it doesn't have but also misses some moves that could be useful.
However, as I said, it has its flaws like its low speed as well as Excadrill and various others, and as such needs a LOT of support. I suggest it to be put in D-rank.
Now, I'll bring in some suggestions of my own. D-rank is so empty but so many mons have their uses to be put in there. I suggest Exploud, Golem and Mismagius for D-rank
Exploud: STAB Boomburst, all you need. It is also a solid check to Garchomp and many other mons, being bulky enough to tank a hit and deal solid damage back.
But it isn't without (a whole host) of flaws, like being relatively frail if it comes to taking boosted attacks or SE attacks, it is pretty slow, and only 91 Base SpA makes sure its coverage moves won't do much damage without a boost (and Exploud has no boosting moves at all), making Boomburst somewhat predictable and abuseable. Baton Pass support is very helpful for Exploud, whatever it may be, a Quiver Dance or a Shell Smash, and it's going to wreck house on the spot. Exploud's Boomburst can hit Ghosts thanks to Scrappy, which is great, though; specially defensive Ghosts are absolutely uncapable of switching into Exploud without being in grave danger.
Golem: Checking half the metagame as long as Sturdy is active (and a significant number even without Sturdy) and countering Talonflame cannot be underestimated. It has enough attack to hurt a lot (Earthquake, Rock Blast, Sucker Punch, Fire Punch/Explosion/Stealth Rock), and it won't invest in Speed but will in HP, allowing it to take significant punishment on the physical side. Just don't let it get hit by Grass/Water attacks.
It needs support though, it does not want its Sturdy to be broken by hazards especially if running Lum Berry instead of Leftovers. Wish support is also great. But Golem has very serious flaws of which you need to be aware, but if used correctly it is still a powerful asset.
Mismagius: Gengar, just slightly worse stats. It lacks the advantages and also the disadvantages of the Poison-typing, has Power Gem instead of Focus Blast (if you need a fast ghost that isn't set-up fodder for Volcarona/ZardY), and is somewhat less frail on the Special side, but has to pay with slightly less Special attack and Speed.
But it can do anything Gengar does otherwise. Also, unlike Gengar, Mismagius beats Landorus if it attempts to check while SR is in play, so there's that as well (a Spooky Plate or Life Orb on Missy is recommended though).
A slightly different variant of Gengar, usually outclassed by it (as Gengar and Mismagius have the same flaws but Mismagius is slightly slower and weaker), but still having its own minor niche.
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.
I vote Tornadus-T for S rank:
So ive played around a lot lately with Tornadus-T and I have to say it just as good as the in 5th gen due to losing it's main spam move in Hurricane. Now that we are in a new generation stuff changes and I have to say Torn-T have amazing coverage speed and power, and it's by no means frail either. It 2hko's nearly everything in the metagame on the switct-in bar really bulky pokemon like Mandibuzz, Latias, Chansey, Jellicent and Deoxys-D. While looking at these pokemon they are mainly walls and underused in this meta and are also easy to take switch advantage of, which comes under the "free" turns. But it can also run Knock Off to deter a switch-in or Tailwind to help your team with a sweep. And as I said Torn-T is not frail at all where as nearly no priority kills it, not even Ice Shard from Adamant Mamoswine with Life Orb kills Timid Torn-T but has a pitiful 6.3% chance to ko with hasty ! This means that when Torn-T is in even if you know it's set you make the wrong move you lose a mon or get heavely dented, which also gives you the momentum in the game, which is huge. And not only that, it sports an amazing ability for it's typing in Regenerator which makes Stealth Rock and Life Orb almost not even bother it. So my conclusion is, Tornadus-T is a great wallbreaker, late game cleaner and momentum creater, while also sporting longivity, which in my opinion and my experiences with it this gen is good enough for S-tier.
I vote Tornadus-T for S rank:
So ive played around a lot lately with Tornadus-T and I have to say it just as good as the in 5th gen due to losing it's main spam move in Hurricane. Now that we are in a new generation stuff changes and I have to say Torn-T have amazing coverage speed and power, and it's by no means frail either. It 2hko's nearly everything in the metagame on the switct-in bar really bulky pokemon like Mandibuzz, Latias, Chansey, Jellicent and Deoxys-D. While looking at these pokemon they are mainly walls and underused in this meta and are also easy to take switch advantage of, which comes under the "free" turns. But it can also run Knock Off to deter a switch-in or Tailwind to help your team with a sweep. And as I said Torn-T is not frail at all where as nearly no priority kills it, not even Ice Shard from Adamant Mamoswine with Life Orb kills Timid Torn-T but has a pitiful 6.3% chance to ko with hasty ! This means that when Torn-T is in even if you know it's set you make the wrong move you lose a mon or get heavely dented, which also gives you the momentum in the game, which is huge. And not only that, it sports an amazing ability for it's typing in Regenerator which makes Stealth Rock and Life Orb almost not even bother it. So my conclusion is, Tornadus-T is a great wallbreaker, late game cleaner and momentum creater, while also sporting longivity, which in my opinion and my experiences with it this gen is good enough for S-tier.
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Not sure how losing it's best STAB is helping but...
Tornadus-T is fast and can hit decently hard, but won't ever even touch stall because Aegislash pretty much walls it unless it uses Heatwave(on top of other things you mentioned). Additionally, it can't really switch in due the fact its SR weak and is frail due lack of any investment (e.g. Mluke 2HKOs after SR with CC+BP, or just CC after it tries to switch into other things a few times). I do agree it's hard to wear down, but seeing as priority is rampant (it can't really take a Jolly LO Mamoswine Ice Shard 252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 205-244 (68.56 - 81.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) and most people that use offense need scarf mons to revenge kill the likes of Mluke and it gets checked fairly easy by offense too. Not really an S Rank imo
Im not even gonna bother saying that they dont have analysis. Exploud isnt ou viable. 104/64/74 bulk isnt impressive and it still is very weak. Also saying that you can baton pass boosts to it isnt an argument. People baton pass +6 to magikarps and sweep, doesnt make it viable.
Golem doesnt check most of the metagame, its pitiful SpDef means it is 2hko'd or ohko'd by nearly all special attackers and its horrible typing makes it weak to very comon types. "Just don't let it get hit by Grass/Water attacks." or ice or steel or fighting or ground or any special attacks or even too many physical attacks as it has no recovery. Golem has no niche at all and is completely outclassed, by skarmory/lando-t/ttar.
"Gengar, just slightly worse stats." doesnt this mean it is outclassed. Power gem shouldnt be used. You're not even mentioning mismagius's only niche, nasty plot, even then it is too weak and slow to abuse, it is too easily revenge killed. Your argument for mismagius is 'its gengar, but worse'
Electrossis outclassed as well (not as badly). The coil set is outclassed by zygarde who has bulk and speed to abuse it. "Needs Baton Pass support", again, if its 'niche' is to be able to sweep only with baton pass, it hasnt got a niche. Yes, it has a good move pool but thundurus(-t) hits harder and faster and can boost as well as having similar coverage.
The mons you suggested mediocre in OU and should not be mentioned as well as your argument dont support them much and are stupid.
Exploud?
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 187-222 (51.3 - 60.9%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 133-157 (36.5 - 43.1%)
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 202-238 (55.4 - 65.3%)
Hmm. Its power is definitely impressive, I haven't used it but imagine that it'd make for a frightening pivot. Exploud is bulky enough to take a hit and boom back, in most cases. With Scrappy, the only resistors are Steel and Rock types. Base 68 Speed is awful though, and I think that Exploud might be sorely outclassed by stuff like Gengar, Aegislash, Chandelure, Latios, Hydreigon, ect.
I'm not sure what to think here. Sure, Exploud has good neutral coverage and excellent power, but it has no resistances or perks that make it stand out, such as Latios' Psyshock, Aegislash's everything, Tornadus-Therian's Regenerator...
Being able to hit harder doesn't make Exploud a better choice, I suppose.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 187-222 (51.3 - 60.9%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 133-157 (36.5 - 43.1%)
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 202-238 (55.4 - 65.3%)
Hmm. Its power is definitely impressive, I haven't used it but imagine that it'd make for a frightening pivot. Exploud is bulky enough to take a hit and boom back, in most cases. With Scrappy, the only resistors are Steel and Rock types. Base 68 Speed is awful though, and I think that Exploud might be sorely outclassed by stuff like Gengar, Aegislash, Chandelure, Latios, Hydreigon, ect.
I'm not sure what to think here. Sure, Exploud has good neutral coverage and excellent power, but it has no resistances or perks that make it stand out, such as Latios' Psyshock, Aegislash's everything, Tornadus-Therian's Regenerator...
Being able to hit harder doesn't make Exploud a better choice, I suppose.
It gets perfect coverage with EQ/Bullet Seed/Rock Blast/Pin Missle anyway and the only thing that it would really want would be sub. so no if it had 5 moveslots it would be affected the same as any other pokemon that got 5 moveslots. (Hint Hint skyrocket in tiers/viability ranking)
*sweats nervously* (U-Turn is mandatory on it.)
I'm nominating Ampharos (Mega, of course.) for A Rank. (B Rank at worst imo.)
Offensively, the Elec-Dragon Dual STAB is a really good one, only walled by Ferrothorn (Because of it's type.), and Venusaur/Blissey/Chansey, who can't really do anything to the RestTalk, and just get Voltswitched by the All Out if they do not pack Toxic. Even if it's really slow, Ampharos can use that to its advantage, either by providing slow Voltswitchs to bring a mate in the field, or by hitting on the switch the checks that try to get on a resisted move. (For example, a Garchomp that tries to get in on a Thunderbolt, but instead gets OHKOed by Dragon Pulse.)
Defensively, Elec/Dragon + 90/105/110 defenses is very good, the RestTalk (Again, but this set is just too good.) can tank MANY threats : Talonflame, non-F Rotom (Who uses rotom-F anyway.), mixed Aegislash lacking Life Orb/Non Boosted Swords Dancer, defensive Heatran, any Scizor, Gengar, Charizard Y, Skarm, non-LO + Psychock Alakazam, Gyara /w EQ, Espeon, Venusaur, Togekiss, some Volcarona variants, Mandybuzz, Blissey, Klefki, Thundurus, Tornadus (T or not.), non-LO Starmie, Smeargle, Jirachi, Forretress, Sableye, Galvantula, Celebi without EP, Jellicent, Deoxys Speed/Def, Jolteon, Blastoise without Ice Beam, Politoed, Chandelure, Magnzeone, Manetric and many, many, many other special threats, that can't do anything to it. (And, for the most part, have to switch if they dont want to get KOed.)
However, he still has flaws : He needs some support in order to fulfil his Tanking Role (Then something to take out Ferrothorn/Excadrill is needed.), or some Wish/Hazard/Spin or Defog support for the Bulky Pivot, despite its amazing bulk, he still gets easily KOed by STABBed SE attacks, and either needs to get the Pokémons that can kill it on the switch. (Exca if you pack Focus Miss, Greninja, any Dragon slower than it et caetera.) Ampharos can't successfully do its job if his checks and counters aren't KOed, once they are, Ampharos can come in and finish the game by Tanking/Pivoting to death the enemy team.
tldr, he can tank/kill a big portion of the current meta, but needs some support to be effective.
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I don't think Mismagius deserves to be ranked at all. Mismagius is, and always has been, an outright inferior version of Gengar. It's slower and weaker than Gengar, and both of them have Levitate, so there's no advantage for Mismagius. Yes, sure, it can use Power Gem, but why use that outside of hitting Volcarona and Charizard-Y? Gengar is notably stronger than Mismagius and is immune to Toxic as well, so yeah. Mismagius is completely outclassed and I don't think it is viable. It wasn't even that good in last gen's UU, so eh.
On another topic, I want to nominate Cofagrigus for C-Rank. While it has competition from other Ghost-types such as Trevenant and Jellicent, Cofagrigus has its own niche as a bulky offensive sweeper. A Nasty Plot+Trick Room set is quite good, and Cofagrigus's excellent bulk is a great asset when it comes to setting up TR, and Cofag is also one of the better users of the move. Mummy is also a great ability to neuter abilities of Pokemon such as Azumarill, Scizor, and Talonflame, which is really neat. Shadow Ball isn't resisted by Steel-types anymore, which is also very good, and it could either run Wisp to cripple a lot of common Pokemon or run HP Fighting to hit Blissey and Tyranitar if needed. Aside from that, Cofagrigus has some flaws like meh Special bulk, no recovery, and competition from a lot of other Ghosts, but I think it has a viable enough of a niche to warrant a mention here.
On another topic, I want to nominate Cofagrigus for C-Rank. While it has competition from other Ghost-types such as Trevenant and Jellicent, Cofagrigus has its own niche as a bulky offensive sweeper. A Nasty Plot+Trick Room set is quite good, and Cofagrigus's excellent bulk is a great asset when it comes to setting up TR, and Cofag is also one of the better users of the move. Mummy is also a great ability to neuter abilities of Pokemon such as Azumarill, Scizor, and Talonflame, which is really neat. Shadow Ball isn't resisted by Steel-types anymore, which is also very good, and it could either run Wisp to cripple a lot of common Pokemon or run HP Fighting to hit Blissey and Tyranitar if needed. Aside from that, Cofagrigus has some flaws like meh Special bulk, no recovery, and competition from a lot of other Ghosts, but I think it has a viable enough of a niche to warrant a mention here.
That is a bad comparison and you know it. Passing three Shell Smashes is something different than passing a single Speed Boost, Cosmic Power or god forbid Quiver Dance, which is all Exploud really needs, and even if it doesn't get the speed boost it is still a bulky pivot with an incredibly powerful Boomburst to boot, and it has the moves it needs to hit its two resists for SE damage.
Also, calling something weak that can OHKO Garchomp with a neutral attack... yeah right. If you are talking about its coverage moves, yes, you are right, but its STAB hits everything for massive damage.
Ground-type means you can't really compare it with T-Tar since it doesn't die to three U-Turns from Talonflame lol. Rhyperior is a better comparison but lacks Sturdy as well as Sucker Punch. Skarmory is Taunt-bait itself whereas Golem is not and has an entirely different typing to boot. A better typing in many cases? Yes, certainly. But I wouldn't dare to compare them.
Landorus is a decent comparison, but misses out on Rock Blast, Sucker Punch and Explosion, no Sturdy which is easy to keep intact with the new Defog, and cannot take special attacks well either because it runs Speed investment instead of HP investment, etc.
You are surprised how much physical attacks as well as special attacks Golem can survive, actually, even moreso because it will run maximum HP investment.
Ofcourse, Landorus is far easier to fit on a team. That is why I suggested Golem for D-rank, and not for C/B/A/S or whatever.
I have been surprised plenty of times by Golem - originally I ran it in OU as a joke and I will be the last to deny it.
Mismagius is pretty frail if it comes to safely setting up Nasty Plot, and prefers straight up attacking or burning the T-Tar switch-in. Besides, it isn't that much weaker than Gengar. Besides, it looks worse on paper than it actually is. It beats many random mons even without boosts. Landorus, Volcarona, CharizardY, Rotom-W.
Common switch-ins can't escape without being crippled either (Assuming T-Tar switches into a Shadow Ball, T-Tar still eats a Burn while it Pursuits, which Missy survives and then hits again with Energy Ball. Guess T-Tar will not like that, and if it was anywhere below 40% HP it is dead).
Mismagius is like Gengar, and as I said will be commonly outclassed - just not always.
True about the Coil set. Eelektross can run it, but it is outclassed and I am not going to deny that. Eelektross does however have an entirely different typing as well as more variety and the coil set does have entirely different counters - Zygarde won't lure in that Blissey for example while Eelektross will. And Baton Pass support, I mean that only a single CM is enough.
Not massive stacks of Bulk Ups/Calm Minds/Quiver Dances/Shell Smashes or whatever because that is ridiculous and everybody knows it.
Then again, I somehow always make a team with 5 decent mons, and then I did something wrong, replacing the sixth mon two dozen times before finding something obscure that suddenly fixes everything. That, however, does not go for the team I'm currently using; I am only using random mons for the sake of it, and I wanted to say these positively surprised me in how much they can actually handle on their own.
How is Chansey in A rank when in this generation, at least imo its completely outclassed Blissey? And how was Blissey not ranked before Chansey? Yeah I know Chansey with Eviolite has more bulk than Blissey and can take physical hits better but as special walls, which they should be used for, the bulk doesn't make to much of a difference especially when you factor in Leftover recovery. However the biggest reason Blissey outclasses Chansey this gen is due to the rise of Knock Off. Knock Off has become such a great utility move to carry on your team this gen. Nearly every team I've faced in my last few battles have carried it and usually on a Pokémon you wouldn't expect. As a result of this its not uncommon that your Blissey/Chansey will get their item knocked off. When this happens Blissey loses Leftover recovery which Chansey doesn't have anyway however Chansey loses Eviolite, the sole reason it became comparable to Blissey in the first place. In the case of both them getting their Items Knocked Off, if your using Chansey your basically left with a inferior Blissey.
Okay in saying all this I want to nominate Blissey for A Rank.
I really don't want to go on a make a big argument with damage cals and all that stuff as its very late over here but I'm basically nominating for the same reason Chansey is currently in A rank. It can wall a good portion of the metagame but has its flaws and requires some team support to work effectively.
I also want to nominate Chansey for B Rank.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
This is where Chansey fits in. Its not totally eclipsed by Blissey but at least imo is outclassed by it. Like I said before the rise of Knock Off hurts a Pokémon like Chansey that relies on its Item more so than Blissey. If it gets its item knocked off it basically becomes a completely inferior Pokémon to Blissey. Not only that but Blissey does have some other stuff over Chansey other than the Knock Off argument. Most notably Leftover recovery and Blissey can also have some offensive presence and doesn't totally have to rely on Seismic Toss to deal damage.
However with Chansey higher bulk and ability to take physical hits better than Blissey while wielding an Eviolite it does have some advantages over Blissey. It probably also fits stall teams better. Its for this reason that it fits B rank rather than C as its probably only partially outperformed by Blissey.
Okay in saying all this I want to nominate Blissey for A Rank.
I really don't want to go on a make a big argument with damage cals and all that stuff as its very late over here but I'm basically nominating for the same reason Chansey is currently in A rank. It can wall a good portion of the metagame but has its flaws and requires some team support to work effectively.
I also want to nominate Chansey for B Rank.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
This is where Chansey fits in. Its not totally eclipsed by Blissey but at least imo is outclassed by it. Like I said before the rise of Knock Off hurts a Pokémon like Chansey that relies on its Item more so than Blissey. If it gets its item knocked off it basically becomes a completely inferior Pokémon to Blissey. Not only that but Blissey does have some other stuff over Chansey other than the Knock Off argument. Most notably Leftover recovery and Blissey can also have some offensive presence and doesn't totally have to rely on Seismic Toss to deal damage.
However with Chansey higher bulk and ability to take physical hits better than Blissey while wielding an Eviolite it does have some advantages over Blissey. It probably also fits stall teams better. Its for this reason that it fits B rank rather than C as its probably only partially outperformed by Blissey.
Actually, Exploud does have an analysis. You can find it here:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/exploud-qc-1-3.3495478/page-2
Exploud actually has a decent niche because of Boomburst. We're talking about a STAB move that's stronger than Draco Meteor and has no drawbacks at all. A Modest Choice Specs Exploud's Boomburst is even powerful enough to 2HKO some resists, such as Choice Band Scizor. Granted, it is pretty slow, and its coverage moves aren't all that impressive coming off a base 91 SpA stat. However, Boomburst still gives it a small niche, and I see no reason why it shouldn't qualify for a measly D-Rank.
Aasgier, you do realize the Gengar and Mismagius comparison is remarkably similiar to the Sylveon and Florges matchup, right? One far outclasses the other in base stats alone, and has much more options in terms of movepool. Florges was taken out of the rankings altogether as a result of being totally outclassed, so why include Mismagius in D-Rank at all? Power Gem won't even OHKO the bulkier 4x Rock weak Fire-types (Volcarona and YZard), and Gengar has Thunderbolt for the latter anyway.
Analysis or no, I really don't think there is an excuse for using Exploud in OU. Yes, it has a 140 base power STAB move. 140 is a big number, I know. But when you look at it, you'll realise that Exploud's Boomburst is pretty much exactly as powerful as adaptability Porygon-Z's tri-attack, a move that doesn't just lack drawbacks, but has substantial positive effects. And we've known that Porygon-Z, which is almost as bulky, more powerful, and much faster, isn't a good Pokemon in OU since gen 4.
Exploud does have scrappy, which actually makes it slightly better than Porygon-Z in my opinion, but both Pokemon are really bad. They completely lack resistances, and are frail and quite slow. D rank if I've ever seen it.
Exploud does have scrappy, which actually makes it slightly better than Porygon-Z in my opinion, but both Pokemon are really bad. They completely lack resistances, and are frail and quite slow. D rank if I've ever seen it.
I don't think anything with 70% accuracy on its main stab could ever be s-rank. He is a very good mon tho, a solid A rank. I prefer the assault vest set to the pure offensive sets because his ability to pivot with regenerator is really nice. Also a solid mega Luc check with heat wave (altho heat wave falls just short of the OHKO, you need a lil prior damage).
I don't think we should be nominating anything for D-rank at all. There are plenty of Pokemon who have a niche that allows you to get away with using them in OU, even if they do have their issues. Lanturn is easily a D-rank pokemon. A Talonflame / scizor /rotom-W counter that has access to scald and discharge while being a cleric with heal bell (giving you a valid reason to use it over rotom-W). And aside from goodra, dragons have no business switching into a potential ice beam. He learns volt switch too, so you can't just switch in grass types or ferrothorn and call it a day.
But...there haven't been any arguments for lanturn, have there? Because even if he does have a niche in OU...is it really worth the discussion?
But...there haven't been any arguments for lanturn, have there? Because even if he does have a niche in OU...is it really worth the discussion?
Exploud does have viability in a OU trick room team with very poor speed and decent bulk with 102 hp and the ability to spam boomburst with no real counters because of the sheer power of Boomburst + Scrappy (it actually hits harder with boomburst being 2x resisted than any neutral base 90 move from Exploud). It is a very, very small niche in OU and requires multiple supports (I.E. a trick room team) but this use of Exploud outclasses Porygon-Z. So it does have a very small niche above Porygon-Z so it should at least be mentioned as C- IMO.
Yeah you could literally say this could work in a Trick Room team therefore viable in OU thereofore, C rank for a lot of mons that are cleary not OU viable any other way so D rank is kinda worthless...
I'm gonna suggest Amoonguss for C. I've been running him lately, and I've been very impressed. It handles a variety of threats like Keldeo, Rotom-W, and it's just a really nice pokemon with Spore and Regenerator.
Hell, even Genesect struggles with it:
+1 4 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Amoonguss: 178-210 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Amoonguss: 158-188 (36.5 - 43.5%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
28 SpA Amoonguss Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 164-196 (57.9 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hell, even Genesect struggles with it:
+1 4 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Amoonguss: 178-210 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Amoonguss: 158-188 (36.5 - 43.5%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
28 SpA Amoonguss Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 164-196 (57.9 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I never said you didn't take it into account, I just said you didn't mention it.
As for Mega Aggron, I did mention that Rest talk is the only way to heal, but I also said it has heavy 4MSS that it cannot afford it.
As for the ranking, yes it depends on his main niche, his niche is to be a heavy tank, much like Goodra but with Attacking stats that are way better, yes it would be B+, but if I want it a tank, I wouldn't put SR on it, because Skarmory outclasses it in putting Hazards, but Mega Aggron is definitely good.
Honestly I've seen it on Tentacruel before even the buff, Landorus-T was rarely seen using it, but I still saw a good amount of players use it, the Dual Screen Reuniclus, I have sometimes seen Knock off on him, Deoxys-D commonly carries Knock off tbh, as I have seen it way too many times.
Toxicraok and Mega Mawile do prefer Sucker Punch yes, Pinsir doesn't need dark move yes, but I have to disagree about Knock off on Heracross, as I have seen it, used it, and worked greatly, as when I run ScarfMoxie, I find myself better to be locked in Knock Off instead of EQ or Stone Edge, especially when I'm fighting Aegislash or Chandelure. For Mega Absol, ALL the mega absols I have seen carry both Knock Off and Sucker Punch, as relying on Sucker Punch (Yes even with Magic Bounce, he can just set up) is not as reliable, especially when the opponent is smart enough to PP stall it. Ambipom may not be OU viable, but I still have seen it on him, and have seen him in OU more than one time.
Lol I thought I mentioned Gliscor, in fact I myself use Knock off on Gliscor on PS and in-game.
What does this tell you about the OU ladder people?
So far the only mons I've seen run Knock Off are Gliscor and Tangrowth. It's not common to the point of making Porygon2 unviable.
Heracross has too many other moves to be running to run Knock Off really. Against Aegislash I'd rather be locked into Earthquake so I don't get a King's Shield in my face. Mega Absol just died to quickly to my Talonflame I guess.
Porygon2 is still viable in today's metagame, and I would still give him a B/B- Ranking because of his defensive capabilities.
Let's calc:
Still a lot of damage, Volca does not appreciate and now it absolutely lacks SpA investment because it is focused on HP and Speed, even at +1 it cannot OHKO Mismagius (unlike Gengar who would be complete set-up bait). Another Power Gem will easily KO.
And that is without the boosting item that Mismagius requires if you do not run Nasty Plot.
Even with a Specs it is likely fail to OHKO.
But as I said, I am vouching for D-rank, not any higher for obvious reasons ^^ .
Since I often (Weekly I believe) create new account to try out new pokemons, Knock off is extremely common in the lower ladders, I have seen Knock off on Alakazam (Not kidding), but as I go +2000, Knock off does get rarer, but it is still quite common, as really, Tentacruel DOES use it, for the sake of removing the item and not the damage, and so does Deoxys-D.
That's not my point tho, being locked to EQ is generally bad, as tons of things are immune/resistant, but Knock off only gets stronger.
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