Here we go again. Mr. Scytha, let's go by this little by little again.
Needless support is unnecessary forms of support that hinders your teams in the long run.
...oddly enough, I have no major gripes with this definition. Personally, I find Needless Support closer along the lines of "supporting a competitively dead Pokemon", but this works out.
Using Delibird, etc. won't help your case, cuz they are just extreme examples of needless support. NS can apply to OU viable pokemon in situations such as having some one like Volcarona on your team after having two other Pokemon (EXP: Charizard Y and Talonflame) weak to Stealth Rocks, cuz then your game plan will be too focused on keeping rocks off the field, than actually dealing damage. Running 3 Pokemon weak to SR would require more Spinners/Defoggers on your team than the average team, cuz if your spinner/Defogger should die, you are screwed!!! This all could have been prevented if you decided not to add another Pokemon weak to SR on the team.
Now we have a new problem when it comes this needless support: What brain-dead monkey would make a team consisting of Volcarona, Talonflame, AND Charizard Y? Having more than one typing on a team is fine if you have ways to support the Pokemon, but THAT would just be overdoing it. Forget Needless Support; the person responsible for such a team requires needed tutoring or brain surgery.
Getting back on track, it's typically bad team building to put more than two Stealth Rock weak Pokemon on a team without some form of Rapid Spin/Defog Support. That is an example of needed support. Need to remove those Faeries for Hydreigon to pull off a sweep? That's needed support. Support could be as simple as a well made core, not unlike Heatran/Rotom-W/Mega Venusaur.
Also note that Delibird is a "competitively dead Pokemon", therefore it'd be worthless trying to support it (even if Gamefreak gave it Spikes and Destiny Bond...wait a minute...they did?) because it's absolutely dead weight. To avoid needless support, stick to the teambuilding basics and give thought when adding Pokemon. To be fair, if a team of those three Stealth Rock Weak Pokemon did exist, the gameplan for the team would be as you said it would be, which is why teambuilding logic is needed to avoid such a dilemna.
Ammongus is too predictable in today's OU metagame.
1 point for being correct about Amoonguss. This is something I will not argue.
Grass/Poison typing does allow him to beat Fairies, but remember he's still weak to Fire, Psychic, Flying, and Ice, all very common types today. His bulk and recovery options are his biggest strengths, but his slow speed, and his predictability are weaknesses.
Every Pokemon has weaknesses--that's why we throw in teammates that can aid them. That Heatran isn't going to live long against a Ground-Type, so throw in Rotom-W. Have problems with Fight-Types? Throw in a Poison-Type and you're good! Teammates are meant to support each other in some way, whether it be the Double Dragon strategy of Rayquamence where one dies and the other finishes or, as mentioned before, a Defensive Core.
The OU Analysis even stated this for Amoonguss:
"once Sleep Clause is activated, Amoonguss is fairly easy to counter"
I'm not denying that fact, yet there are plenty of Pokemon like that. Once they have done their primary role, some Pokemon ARE relatively easier to counter. Focus Sash Alakazam, for example, will likely lose its Sash, so throw some Priority in the mix. Once Heatran has tanked a few hits, it's likely to have less health and therefore more manageable. I'm just throwing examples out the door, though.
Yes, no one would appreciate a Spore at first, but there are many Counters to this move such as Sap Sippers, Sleep Talkers, Lum Berry Sweepers, and Grass Types.
There is this magical thing called Double Switching, but maybe I'm just being silly. A couple things to note:
Sap Sipper is such a rare ability. What uses it, Goodra? ResTalk Pokemon have come up in the ranking, but Spore can prevent them from using Rest and recovering health, so that's a small boon. If a Sweeper is carrying Lum Berry, they're typically using a boosting move, so Clear Smog. Grass-Types...that's an obvious "duh" when stopping Spore.
[quoteThe calcs i showed earlier shown Pokemon 2HKO/3HKO Amoonguss with powerful SE moves[/quote]
I hate to be THAT guy, but your calculations were a bit silly. To quote:
4 SpA Flash Fire Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 270-320 (62.5 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (you have flash fire on)
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 273-322 (63.1 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (weavile has so many counters, why would you stay in on him)
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Amoonguss: 299-354 (69.2 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (can't switch in, unless you predict the water type move, but at least he can take the hit and put it to sleep)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 270-318 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (no azumarill runs ice punch! it is either knock off or superpower on their last move slot. amoonguss doesn't mind a knock off thanks to regenerator and superpower on him, isn't really that super).
I think this explains the silliness a bit.
but what if they have set up?!
GG, you lost.
No, I wouldn't be that cruel, but let's take this one a bit more seriously. Amoonguss is going to switch into a threat it knows it can tank, so when a set-up sweeper comes in, they take the Spore and Amoonguss switches out to another Pokemon. If a Pokemon HAS already set up, I don't expect even Mega Venusaur to be able to tank their most powerful attack. Once a Pokemon has completely set-up, there aren't many Pokemon (if any to begin with) that can wall them. Your only hope would be to sacrifice a Pokemon and Revenge Kill if possible.
The analysis for Ammooguss for OU, UU, and RU list Pokemon that can handle it well. Some of the Pokemon listed, like Crobat in the UU Analysis, are not even OU viable today.
I have fun when people like to bring up checks to Pokemon that are in lower tiers. Terrakion with Golurk, Tangrowth, and Claydol? Should the checks be OU and Terrakion be NU (let us never imagine this again...)? How about Shedinja against Kyogre? Each Pokemon has flaws; it's the team builder's job to make sure that each Pokemon support each other to make sure the synergy is as close to perfect as possible...at least in my eyes. I could just be a bad teambuilder...
As stated earlier:
"D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current OU metagame, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time."
With that being said, Ammongus has very noticable flaws, with it's only use being to take hits and Recover, or use Spore/Cripple, and thus should be ranked no higher than C-/D, if not, no rank at all.
If you believe that Amoonguss should be given that kind of rank, all to you. I think Amoonguss more closely fits the C Rank, though.
OU Viability Thread said:
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
Amoonguss can be effective when given the right support, with it being usable in a few teams. It has crippling flaws that does prevent it from consistently executing its strategy AND is eclipsed by Mega Venusaur. As I've stated before, I'll maintain my
Amoonguss for C Rank, but I will not deny the flaws of Pokemon when it comes to ranking.
I have to say, this wasn't a post that overly bothered me. I've seen much lousier posts by much lousier people and the fact that you attempted thought with posting...you have a bit of respect from me.
ShadowMarioGalaxy64 Ulevo The problem is when we reach the point that things that have literally no niche and therefore no reason to be used, are being ranked. Amoonguss vs venusaur, darmanitan vs victini, kyurem vs kyurem black is not the same as florges vs sylveon. Amoonguss still has regenerator and doesnt eat a mega slot, darmanitan hits harder and doesnt suffer life orb recoil, kyurem has pressure+subroost. Florges however has no niche that sylveon doesnt fill better and is a clear example of something that should not be ranked ever. Thats also the reason the D rank is useless ''
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current OU metagame, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.'' If they are not worth the trouble most of the time then why would i ever want to use them and what exactly is the point of ranking them in first place? Maybe if we reach another ''dusclops in uu'' situation, where something is useless in the tier it is in but we have to rank it because it has enough usage to be part of said tier this rank could be useful but for now theres no reason for this to exist.
I never said anything about wanting Florges ranked (if anything, let it remain unranked), but I will say this: I brought up Pokemon barely anybody ran that had merits. Florges...it's entirely outclassed. Maybe it will get something new later...maybe not. Hard to say as is, but until then, Sylveon is fine where it is and Florges is fine where it isn't.
