Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Ajwf]

Okay so this is in fact very impressive. I can see him in B+, maybe A. Do you find that regenerator is always enough to keep him going throughout a match? He doesn't look too difficult to wear down, but I know from experience that regenerator is deceptively effective.

Nah, his job as a defensive pivot allows him to avoid it. He's generally in, take a hit/give a hit and out. I have chansey around but I might pass one wish to him in a 90+ turn game. Unless the opponent is running full pressure, there are just too many easy in/out switches for him to get worn down easily.

I think that Slowbro should rise to B+, but not A. Its not outclassed by any pokemon and is a great part to a defensive core with mega venesaur. I believe you, I've played against your stall team with it. However it has a few problems of its own that prevent it from functioning as well as it would like and it can't be thrown on any team. Its special defense is somewhat lackluster, and an assault vest prevents it from using healing on the spot and using thunder wave. It can be pursuit trapped by Band Tyranitar, and actually as a chance for OHKO. It can also be walled by pokemon such as mega venesaur (if they have some sort of status support) or celebi. I think that B+ is still pretty good (up there with skarmory) and that it definitely is viable in today's meta. Its certainly as good as Goodra, another B+ pokemon.

Obviously, the majority of the meta doesn't include bandtar (What is his usage this gen anyways...?). Mega venu isn't coming in, as psyshock is still an option.

(for reference)
0 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 146-174 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 150-176 (38 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Yeah, venu wins, but he isn't coming in on that. This is just the set I run. The physically defensive support set is viable as well, but loses a bit of the pivot mentality. Does gain the twave support (should you use it) but I have just found this AV set to be incredible. Preference on AV, though. Remember, it isn't that he CAN'T run another set beside AV, it's just that I don't and so I'm just arguing what I see to be the better one.

 

[Star]

I believe Slowbro deserves an A- Rank. Those calc by Ajwf clearly show Slowbro's immense bulk as it can easily tank Super Effective or majorly boosted moves from top threats in the tier like Mega Lucario and Dragonite. In addition, Regenerator is one of the best defensive abilities in the metagame. Slowbro can switch out and regain health with no worries. It also makes hazards irrelevant for the most part. Also it has a nice movepool to go with the Assault Vest (Scald, Ice Beam, Fire Blast, Psyshock). The only flaw I see keeping it from A rank is the presence of Genesect because switching out on U-turns gives momentum to the other team and staying in gives it major damage. (Assuming Band here)

 

[rachet67]

I'd like to nominate Blissey for B/B+. Just for comparison, Chansey is ranked A-. Blissey is basically the same excellent special wall it always was, and can provide wish and heal bell support. While Blissey provides pretty much the same role as chansey, its complete inability to take physical hits makes it a little worse than chansey, especially since a few more mixed attackers, such as Aegislash were introduced. However, Blissey does have leftovers, which really can come in handy, so its not completely outclassed by chansey.

Slowbro was C rank last generation, and although Assault vest gives slowbro another set to run, I'm not sure that is really enough to bring it up to the A tier. And while it can take hits, it really cant deal a lot of damage, and can't use support moves. Other than assault vest, not a whole lot has changed for it, besides a ton of new sweepers being introduced and more mons that can work around it (aegislash). I do think that the meta slowed down enough to push it to B/B+ though. Its in B at the moment, so I think its about in the right place. Overall, with the right support, it can be an effective mon.

 

[Ruffles]

Slowbro ...
Call me crazy, but I have used Trick Room + Disable on him, works so much better than SubDisable. Then just Slackoff, Scald to just annoyingly burn everything, T-Wave to cripple special attackers, and if you are running AV, just Ice Beam, Fire Blast, Scald, and Psyshock and you have a tank, maybe no recovery, but who cares when you are not losing so much HP anyways? You still have Regenerator but that's not extremely reliable. You are tanking sooo much of the metagame. Definitely agreeing with Ajwf.

Slowbro is viable this generation thnx to AV, Talonflame, MegaLucario, and Aegislash, 3 pokemons that are extremely popular, and 1 item that is really good on any pokemon with high defense & average SpD.

 

[I2edShift]

Dude get it - Salamence. Fucking. Sucks. It's not like it was in the older gens. It isn't bad, but to even think it being A is extremely laughable in the current metagame.

If it's so god damn horrible, why did you nominate it for -A/B+ not four pages ago?

Hide

Salamence faces very stiff competition this generation as a Dragon in general. The advent of Fairy-types does not help the situation either. Dragonite, Haxorus, and Mega Charizard X are arguably better users of Dragon Dance this generation and competition from Garchomp doesn't help Salamence either.

I actually think A-/B+ is more suitable this generation. Salamence is still monstrous, but the 6th generation brought a hefty hammer to it.

And by extension everything else in those tiers "fucking sucks" too... Right then.

LO MixMence is one of the most offensively threatening mixed dragon attacker besides Weakness Policy Dragonite. Garchomps STABs are physical with lower SpA and MegaChomp is slower, without LO, and a Mega. Charizard X does not go mixed, and if it does it doesn't have LO to boost it's damage, it's also a Mega with SR phobia in base form. Hydreigon only uses Superpower & Lati@s are special attackers.

Salamence faces stiff competition from other things, yes. It is still usable and is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of the metagame. It is a B rank Pokemon, and no lower than B-. Certain sets are now completely outclassed by other 'Mons & mega evolutions, but not everything. And if you've been following this thread like you have, you know that Salamence is far better than the garbage people have been currently throwing around for C tier.

 

[Chev]

Thanks. My bad. However, viability does not equal usage, and I think Salamence is B- or up.

I see where you are coming from when you say that, however, the discussion part is to determine why and how the usages can help us better understand where these 'mons will fall due to various reasons. Just because he works in one way, doesn't mean he is a guaranteed B/A rank. Flaws are flaws. Hell, I even would love to see an un-named poke make it into at least C, but its weaknesses are crippling at times, although with good support, can be a tricky end game toss out.

I would say Donphan has been doing great for me, as has Houndoom. adding a Ferrothorn into the mix with those makes a rather bulky core, good at wittling down some physical attacks with good switch-ins. Although lower in the usages, with a good switch M-Houndoom with a +2 NP can possibly see himself being a contender up around the B- area. Little support is needed for a good fire move switch, although his moderate defenses leave something to be desired with not the most awe-inspiring 140/115 sweeping base stats.

With a switch-in on a predicted WoW from a Trevenant:

+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Trevenant: 510-600 (136.3 - 160.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And if a counter-switch were to be predictable to some extent:

252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 222-264 (56.3 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now this is all hypothetically speaking, and requires a predicted switch on a good check to our little pup, but it could do work.

 

[Colonel M]

If it's so god damn horrible, why did you yourself nominate it for -A/B+ not four pages ago?
And by extension everything else in those tiers "fucking sucks" too... Right then.

LO MixMence is one of the most offensively threatening mixed dragon attacker besides Weakness Policy Dragonite. Garchomps STABs are physical with lower SpA and MegaChomp is slower, without LO, and a Mega. Charizard X does not go mixed, and if it does it doesn't have LO to boost it's damage, it's also a Mega with SR phobia in base form. Hydreigon only uses Superpower & Lati@s are special attackers.

Salamence faces stiff competition from other things, yes. It is still usable and is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of the metagame. It is a B rank Pokemon, and no lower than B-. Certain sets are now completely outclassed by other 'Mons & mega evolutions, but not everything. And if you've been following this thread like you have, you know that Salamence is far better than the garbage people have been currently throwing around for C tier.

That was until I thought more about what competition it faces and how it probably should just become B Tier. And I still question it there.

 

[I2edShift]

That was until I thought more about what competition it faces and how it probably should just become B Tier. And I still question it there.

B tier is what everyone (myself included) has been suggesting for a long time now, prior to the Mega Venasaur borefest. The few people saying it's completely outclassed (thus C) have been referring only to DD sets, which is not the only effective usable set. Salamence has a usable niche' and can sweep through significant portions of a the metagame. Remove the given fairy from the opponents team and it's not going to get walled anymore.

 

[Chev]

A +2 NP? What does that mean?

A Nasty Plot giving +2 to SpAtk, the boost to fire moves due to Flash Fire is good too, giving the Flamethrower/Fire Blast an essential +3 Boost on whatever may be switching in. Either way, the following hit can be devastating.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Your opinions suck too.

Umm...

-Do not insult or flame other users. Correcting users when they say something that's clearly wrong is fine. Calling them a (BAN ME PLEASE) or saying they are stupid/retarded is an automatic 2 point infraction, no exceptions for anyone, badged users included.

I don't know who you're directly talking to with that, but...eh, I'm glad I'm not a mod.

Anyways, it's nice to see the forums in slightly better shape than before. We gave our looks on many that needed it and I think it's time to give some input on a Pokemon I personally think should be looked at.

I actually looked at the list and apparently Zoroark is unreserved. I assume that means it's getting an OU Analysis, so we can probably look at it. I'm not sure how anybody else thinks, but I think Zoroark, along with Gengar, is a troll among Pokemon. Zoroark's Signature Ability, Illusion, is what can make it an annoying threat, especially when coupled with a Gengar to disguise as (Alakazam used Psychic...it doesn't affect Gengar!? *Rage*). Of course, using Zoroark is a difficult task regardless because of how frail it is (and how it's typically easy to counter once it has been revealed), but Zoroark has strengths worth running every now and again. You'll never know when Zoroark will come in for the Revenge Kill; that Scizor might be a different threat, so your Jellicent might want to hold off...or might it? This Pokemon plays immense mind games and, when played correctly, can get you that surprise kill. Sucker Punch Starmie? Wait...what? Exactly. Zoroark does have three notable flaws, though...outside of its Mono-Dark Typing. For starters, Zoroark is frail...like, 60/60/60 frail. Secondly, Zoroark's Speed, while a nice 105, isn't enough to outspeed faster threats (though a Choice Scarf set can outspeed Deoxys-S if memory serves). Finally, its mixed offenses with 105 Attack and 120 Special Attack are good, but not amazing. It is enough to take out Pokemon that are bulky on one side, though. As far as rating it, though, I'm completely unsure. Nothing really outclasses Zoroark per se because of Illusion (that and there aren't many Dark-Types to be had in OU), but it does have enough problems to stop it from becoming an A-Range threat (maybe even B). So, I want to know what everybody else thinks on this one...I'm stumped.

 

[Judgement Blade]

B tier is what everyone (myself included) has been suggesting for a long time now, prior to the Mega Venasaur borefest. The few people saying it's completely outclassed (thus C) have been referring only to DD sets, which is not the only effective usable set. Salamence has a usable niche' and can sweep through significant portions of a the metagame. Remove the given fairy from the opponents team and it's not going to get walled anymore.

And the Talonflame. That usually hampers things when I'm going about my Salamence based sweeping life. Also, I can't be the only one though that keeps getting annoyed when people are bringing up MegaZard X outclassing DDMence when you're comparing a Mega to a non-Mega. "Hey man, did you hear that Mega Lucario is better than regular Lucario? Shocking information!"

 

[RP2865]

Umm...



I don't know who you're directly talking to with that, but...eh, I'm glad I'm not a mod.

Anyways, it's nice to see the forums in slightly better shape than before. We gave our looks on many that needed it and I think it's time to give some input on a Pokemon I personally think should be looked at.

I actually looked at the list and apparently Zoroark is unreserved. I assume that means it's getting an OU Analysis, so we can probably look at it. I'm not sure how anybody else thinks, but I think Zoroark, along with Gengar, is a troll among Pokemon. Zoroark's Signature Ability, Illusion, is what can make it an annoying threat, especially when coupled with a Gengar to disguise as (Alakazam used Psychic...it doesn't affect Gengar!? *Rage*). Of course, using Zoroark is a difficult task regardless because of how frail it is (and how it's typically easy to counter once it has been revealed), but Zoroark has strengths worth running every now and again. You'll never know when Zoroark will come in for the Revenge Kill; that Scizor might be a different threat, so your Jellicent might want to hold off...or might it? This Pokemon plays immense mind games and, when played correctly, can get you that surprise kill. Sucker Punch Starmie? Wait...what? Exactly. Zoroark does have three notable flaws, though...outside of its Mono-Dark Typing. For starters, Zoroark is frail...like, 60/60/60 frail. Secondly, Zoroark's Speed, while a nice 105, isn't enough to outspeed faster threats (though a Choice Scarf set can outspeed Deoxys-S if memory serves). Finally, its mixed offenses with 105 Attack and 120 Special Attack are good, but not amazing. It is enough to take out Pokemon that are bulky on one side, though. As far as rating it, though, I'm completely unsure. Nothing really outclasses Zoroark per se because of Illusion (that and there aren't many Dark-Types to be had in OU), but it does have enough problems to stop it from becoming an A-Range threat (maybe even B). So, I want to know what everybody else thinks on this one...I'm stumped.

That's very interesting. (By the way, I am almost sure that CS Zoroark does not outspeed Deoxys S.) Personally, I would give it a D+, because its predictable move pool allows you to take anti-Zoroark measures in unsure cases. Let's say the last pokemon in your party is a aegislash, and you send out your zoroark. I would think "well, this is either an aegislash or a zoroark. How about I be safe and send in a pokemon (virizion) which can handle both both. I switch, it turns out to be a zoroark, and the opponent loses all momentum.
Feel free to comment :)

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Dragon Dance salamence is too frail to setup on most of the tier, cant break through fairies, talonflame bait, easily revenge killed by scarfers etc. Exactly the inverse with charizard and dragonite. Charizard is extremely hard to revenge kill due to its typing, doesnt give af about fairies, has a powerful stab that doesnt lock in, gets life orb boosts without suffering recoil, its just fucking amazing. Dragonite has an automatic dual screen support just by being at full health which allows it to setup in pratically anything and is a pain to revenge kill, extremespeed shits on talonflame regardless of your health. Mixmence has absolutely nothing on kyurem b sexy mixed boltbeam coverage and mega garchomp's great non lockable stab earthquake. Theyre both bulky af as well meaning stall teams are going to be hard pressed to take them down with weak attacks and hit has hard as life orb salamence without recoil. Scarf mence just sucks, no need to explain again. Seriously, just no, this thing is so fucking bad now, either C+ or B- rank, anything beyond this is stupid.

And the Talonflame. That usually hampers things when I'm going about my Salamence based sweeping life. Also, I can't be the only one though that keeps getting annoyed when people are bringing up MegaZard X outclassing DDMence when you're comparing a Mega to a non-Mega. "Hey man, did you hear that Mega Lucario is better than regular Lucario? Shocking information!"

?????????

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

By the way, I am almost sure that CS Zoroark does not outspeed Deoxys S.

Naive 252 EV Speed Zoroark reaches 339 naturally. Choice scarf multiplies this by 1.5. 339x1.5=508.5, round down to 508. Deoxys-S only hits 504 as a max, so unless that Deoxys-S is Scarfed, it's getting outsped. It can fool the Deoxys-S into Psycho Boost (Offensive Variants, that is), have it fail, then Sucker Punch regardless of Scarf or not.
As far as movepools go, Swords Dance and Nasty Plot can be used, as can U-Turn and Trick. I wouldn't say that the movepool is entirely predictible, but there are a couple things you know will likely be on it.

 

[SergantGold]

?????????

10/10 would math again.

I'm honestly getting sick of this salamence circlejerk and would like to shift the conversation to increasing Slowbro's humble B to a A-, as it is very good counter/check in the case of the nukish ones like mega lucario, and it gets a nice move-pool to utilize with gems like Slack Off and Calm Mind. It also provides the best avatar image

 

[Ryolain]

Umm...



I don't know who you're directly talking to with that, but...eh, I'm glad I'm not a mod.

Anyways, it's nice to see the forums in slightly better shape than before. We gave our looks on many that needed it and I think it's time to give some input on a Pokemon I personally think should be looked at.

I actually looked at the list and apparently Zoroark is unreserved. I assume that means it's getting an OU Analysis, so we can probably look at it. I'm not sure how anybody else thinks, but I think Zoroark, along with Gengar, is a troll among Pokemon. Zoroark's Signature Ability, Illusion, is what can make it an annoying threat, especially when coupled with a Gengar to disguise as (Alakazam used Psychic...it doesn't affect Gengar!? *Rage*). Of course, using Zoroark is a difficult task regardless because of how frail it is (and how it's typically easy to counter once it has been revealed), but Zoroark has strengths worth running every now and again. You'll never know when Zoroark will come in for the Revenge Kill; that Scizor might be a different threat, so your Jellicent might want to hold off...or might it? This Pokemon plays immense mind games and, when played correctly, can get you that surprise kill. Sucker Punch Starmie? Wait...what? Exactly. Zoroark does have three notable flaws, though...outside of its Mono-Dark Typing. For starters, Zoroark is frail...like, 60/60/60 frail. Secondly, Zoroark's Speed, while a nice 105, isn't enough to outspeed faster threats (though a Choice Scarf set can outspeed Deoxys-S if memory serves). Finally, its mixed offenses with 105 Attack and 120 Special Attack are good, but not amazing. It is enough to take out Pokemon that are bulky on one side, though. As far as rating it, though, I'm completely unsure. Nothing really outclasses Zoroark per se because of Illusion (that and there aren't many Dark-Types to be had in OU), but it does have enough problems to stop it from becoming an A-Range threat (maybe even B). So, I want to know what everybody else thinks on this one...I'm stumped.

Honestly, I'd go with D. It has one niche in the metagame: playing Illusion mind games. Once that game is over, its usefulness on your team drops dramatically. It's not strong enough or bulky enough to continue to serve a threatening offensive role, and it lacks support options to make it a utility Poke. However, it does have a spot in OU just because nothing else can mess with an opponent in the same way and that one or maybe two turns max of confusion can net you momentum.

 

[Judgement Blade]

Dragon Dance salamence is too frail to setup on most of the tier, cant break through fairies, talonflame bait, easily revenge killed by scarfers etc. Exactly the inverse with charizard and dragonite. Charizard is extremely hard to revenge kill due to its typing, doesnt give af about fairies, has a powerful stab that doesnt lock in, gets life orb boosts without suffering recoil, its just fucking amazing. Dragonite has an automatic dual screen support just by being at full health which allows it to setup in pratically anything and is a pain to revenge kill, extremespeed shits on talonflame regardless of your health. Mixmence has absolutely nothing on kyurem b sexy mixed boltbeam coverage and mega garchomp's great non lockable stab earthquake. Theyre both bulky af as well meaning stall teams are going to be hard pressed to take them down with weak attacks and hit has hard as life orb salamence without recoil. Scarf mence just sucks, no need to explain again. Seriously, just no, this thing is so fucking bad now, either C+ or B- rank, anything beyond this is stupid.

?????????

Well, you'd think with the amount that people bring up MegaZard X outclassing DDMence that MZX comes from Salamence. I was certainly shocked when I learned it didn't.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Well, you'd think with the amount that people bring up MegaZard X outclassing DDMence that MZX comes from Salamence. I was certainly shocked when I learned it didn't.

It outclasses salamence because its better in every single way imaginable to men. No one cares if it takes up a mega slot when its one of the best megas in the game, your logic is flawed. This discussion has run its course anyway so:

Nominating Keldeo for A+ rank. Keldeo is THE choice specs user in this meta. Hydro pump simply punches holes in any team that lacks an immunity or amoonguss. Even venusaur in his mega forme is struggling to tank repeated hits. With latias, celebi and jellicent falling out of usage keldeo just becomes even more mindless than before, not needing to bother with tyranitar pursuit support or specific hidden powers, just blast shit. Secret sword ensures the blobs are non issues and also hits goodra harder than anything. He can also run life orb or expert belt but thats usually not required due to the sheer power specs provides. This thing is seriously beyond even specs latios in nuking terms and should be recognized as such. 108 speed+doesnt care about most priority (except that talonflame) means even the most offensive teams are still going to have trouble with him.

Tornadus-T for B rank. Come on, is this thing seriously not ranked yet. Regenerator+life orb+121 speed+u-turn is still there, its still ridiculous hard to wear down and will usually outlive its checks, just like in bw. Yeah sure, rain is no longer permanent, but people need to remember that 8 turns is still good enough to wreck things, not gamebreaker like it used to be but it still works well. Taunt shuts down most bulky mons specially hazards users and tornadus can just keep doing this through the whole game, not caring about life orb recoil or any other kind of passive damage. It can even be used outside of rain with air slash+heat wave (gg aegislash). It helps that jirachi and jolteon have dropped in usage. Other than the rain nerf the main problem is the massive influx of priority that bypass its speed which are reasons enough to prevent tornadus from getting beyond B rank for now.

 

[Tressed]

Zoroark has always piqued my interest, but its not exactly a Pokemon you can slap onto a team without care. Its frail and has poor typing, defensively speaking, and its just a liiitle bit too slow to pull off a Nasty Plot or Specs set effectively. The best set from BW, imo, was the All Out Attacker, and with the nerf to Steel types, Zoroark has what it takes to be even more successful with that set this year. I would think that the Scarf set would also be worth giving a shot.

The trick with Zoroark was always the Illusion. Most of the Zoroarks that I've seen have been played really poorly, being extremely predictable ie. "That Scizor just switched into my Aegislash. Hi Zoroark." and then switch out. If you want to abuse Zoroark properly, you use Team Preview against them. To use my old analogy again, you could use the fear of Zoroark in order to actually send Scizor out against Aegislash, Aegislash switches in fear of Dark Pulse, and Scizor's Banded U-Turn dents whatever was hoping to get in on Zoroark. Send out Zoroark as something that forces out your opponents and smash them in the face. Send out other Pokemon at ridiculous times and watch your opponent squirm as they try to figure out if its Zoroark or not. This thing has the potential to make your opponent second guess every move while Zoroark is still alive.

That said, I'm thinking that C Rank is a good place for it. I know I just went and hyped the hell out of it, but it has a learning curve to using it and its teammates sorta have to be chosen with it in mind, ie. Intimidate, Download, Mold Breaker, etc. are pretty much out of the question if you want to play the Illusion game. Good hazard control is key as well, since odd hazard behavior is a giveaway. It can work out well if you invest in it, but you'll be regretting not using Greninja if you don't have support for it.

 

[Ryolain]

Zoroark has always piqued my interest, but its not exactly a Pokemon you can slap onto a team without care. Its frail and has poor typing, defensively speaking, and its just a liiitle bit too slow to pull off a Nasty Plot or Specs set effectively. The best set from BW, imo, was the All Out Attacker, and with the nerf to Steel types, Zoroark has what it takes to be even more successful with that set this year. I would think that the Scarf set would also be worth giving a shot.

The trick with Zoroark was always the Illusion. Most of the Zoroarks that I've seen have been played really poorly, being extremely predictable ie. "That Scizor just switched into my Aegislash. Hi Zoroark." and then switch out. If you want to abuse Zoroark properly, you use Team Preview against them. To use my old analogy again, you could use the fear of Zoroark in order to actually send Scizor out against Aegislash, Aegislash switches in fear of Dark Pulse, and Scizor's Banded U-Turn dents whatever was hoping to get in on Zoroark. Send out Zoroark as something that forces out your opponents and smash them in the face. Send out other Pokemon at ridiculous times and watch your opponent squirm as they try to figure out if its Zoroark or not. This thing has the potential to make your opponent second guess every move while Zoroark is still alive.

That said, I'm thinking that C Rank is a good place for it. I know I just went and hyped the hell out of it, but it has a learning curve to using it and its teammates sorta have to be chosen with it in mind, ie. Intimidate, Download, Mold Breaker, etc. are pretty much out of the question if you want to play the Illusion game. Good hazard control is key as well, since odd hazard behavior is a giveaway. It can work out well if you invest in it, but you'll be regretting not using Greninja if you don't have support for it.

I think you really emphasized why Zoroark is a D rank for me - it needs a whole team built around it, and for what? I'd rather take a really scary sweeper that could go either way like MLuc or MZard who doesn't require extremely careful team building and very cautious play. Instead, you pull them out and you force your opponent to make a coinflip. The difference is that if they guess right and kill you, you aren't left with 5 Pokes that were hampered during team building by trying to support the effectiveness of Illusion. You can still max out the potential of the rest of your team.

I just don't think Zoroark is consistent enough at building momentum to be worth the level of support it requires. You and your opponent will both be going overtime on prediction and since he's so frail, all it takes is one wrong guess and he's probably dead.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Nominating Keldeo for A+ rank. Keldeo is THE choice specs user in this meta. Hydro pump simply punches holes in any team that lacks an immunity or amoonguss. Even venusaur in his mega forme is struggling to tank repeated hits. With latias, celebi and jellicent falling out of usage keldeo just becomes even more mindless than before, not needing to bother with tyranitar pursuit support or specific hidden powers, just blast shit. Secret sword ensures the blobs are non issues and also hits goodra harder than anything. He can also run life orb or expert belt but thats usually not required due to the sheer power specs provides. This thing is seriously beyond even specs latios in nuking terms and should be recognized as such. 108 speed+doesnt care about most priority (except that talonflame) means even the most offensive teams are still going to have trouble with him.

I'm not exactly an expert on Keldeo, but I'll do anything to get away from the Salamence argument. I honestly cannot tell who's on what side anymore.

I don't think it's quite A+ because as you mentioned, it really doesn't like Talonflame

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 468-552 (144.8 - 170.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But since that alone isn't a reason to not use a poke, I'll point out that its fighting STAB is not at all useful like it was last gen, and the rain nerf mean its got to be a few ranks lower than last gen. Plus there's the hydro pump nerf, new AV sets, and new specially defensive threats like Sylveon and Goodra (I know those aren't the best, but they're the only ones I can think of, and I'm too lazy to do any research) that can switch in and force the switch for set up. I think B+ is a little closer.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

I'm not exactly an expert on Keldeo, but I'll do anything to get away from the Salamence argument. I honestly cannot tell who's on what side anymore.

I don't think it's quite A+ because as you mentioned, it really doesn't like Talonflame

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 468-552 (144.8 - 170.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But since that alone isn't a reason to not use a poke, I'll point out that its fighting STAB is not at all useful like it was last gen, and the rain nerf mean its got to be a few ranks lower than last gen. Plus there's the hydro pump nerf, new AV sets, and new specially defensive threats like Sylveon and Goodra (I know those aren't the best, but they're the only ones I can think of, and I'm too lazy to do any research) that can switch in and force the switch for set up. I think B+ is a little closer.

Sylveon does add one more to the list of things that can switch into Specs Keldeo repeatedly. Goodra doesn't do too well against secret sword though.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 279-328 (72.6 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

On the other hand, he does have trouble getting past other new stuff, such as Azumarill with its fairy typing (can't switch in with stealth rock, but can tank a hydro pump and OHKO back with play rough).

I would put keldeo somewhere in the middle, around A- (does that exist? there's nothing in it right now).

 

[LoDart210]

Guys, what about tangrowth?

His AV set is just ridiculous, where he runs 252/252+ in HP/sp def and has an AV. Tangrowth is very good at baiting and dealing heavy damage to would be counters and set up sweepers.

0 Atk Tangrowth Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 288-340 (96.6 - 114%) -- 75% chance to OHKO


+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 266-314 (65.8 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Meanwhile

0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 160-190 (56.9 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As lucario sets up, you take him out as he hits you, then switch for the regenerator.

Even heatran cannot survive on the switch.

4 SpA Flash Fire Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 236-278 (58.4 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 272-324 (70.4 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Or let's take dragonite, attempting a WP sweep.

0 SpA Tangrowth Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 94-112 (29 - 34.5%) -- 5.2% chance to 3HKO

Then....
+3 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tangrowth: 303-357 (75 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Tangrowth Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 188-224 (58 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Assuming you do minimum damage both turns, you've still taken out a hefty 79% enough for a revenge killer.

Greninja isn't safe either,

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 237-281 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 234-276 (81.8 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


The best part about tangrowth is that is has a lot of coverage and good base 100/110 attacking stats and he had the fantastic knock off.

You can even go full defensive and regain access to moves like sleep powder and leech seed, in which case....
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Tangrowth: 296-350 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In return (enough ev's to almost guarantee an OHKO without sacrificing too much bulk)

36 Atk Tangrowth Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 296-352 (99.3 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO


Even mega gyarados can't tough through

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Tangrowth: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I think he deserves a B/B- rank wall

 

[Sandoori]

I'd like to nominate Blissey for B/B+. Just for comparison, Chansey is ranked A-. Blissey is basically the same excellent special wall it always was, and can provide wish and heal bell support. While Blissey provides pretty much the same role as chansey, its complete inability to take physical hits makes it a little worse than chansey, especially since a few more mixed attackers, such as Aegislash were introduced. However, Blissey does have leftovers, which really can come in handy, so its not completely outclassed by chansey.

Slowbro was C rank last generation, and although Assault vest gives slowbro another set to run, I'm not sure that is really enough to bring it up to the A tier. And while it can take hits, it really cant deal a lot of damage, and can't use support moves. Other than assault vest, not a whole lot has changed for it, besides a ton of new sweepers being introduced and more mons that can work around it (aegislash). I do think that the meta slowed down enough to push it to B/B+ though. Its in B at the moment, so I think its about in the right place. Overall, with the right support, it can be an effective mon.

Honestly with the increase in Knock Off usage, I'd think Blissey would be on par with or above Chansey rather than the other way around. There's plenty of things threatening to rob it of its Eviolite and neuter its bulk, whereas Blissey losing Leftovers isn't such a death sentence.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

I think B+ is a little closer.

I would put keldeo somewhere in the middle, around A-

Its already A rank i was just pushing it to A+, lol B is that a joke. Sylveon and goodra are just 2hkoed, why do they matter at all. The only things that can consistently switch in specs keldeo are tentacruel and amoonguss, not much different than last gen, specially now that celebi and latias arent staples anymore. The thing about keldeo is that the rain nerf made it manageable, not less effective at all.