To be fair, Jolt isn't really completely eclipsed because of it's speed. But yeah you are probably right about C rank. C+ rank would be the most fitting rank after thinking about it a bit more.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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Okay, now i totally understand why you would run hasty. I wasn't aware that you could only get Espeed from such a Genesect. Thanks :)
I would like to Nominate Gardevoir (Scarfed and Mega) and Gastrodon for B rank still.
Gastrodon can stand up to as many threats as Rotom-W with better recovery, not to mention checking or countering R-W itself with immunity to hydro pump and volt switch and an easy time outstalling pain split. Gastrodon is much better paired with Tyranitar than R-W for obvious reasons, also checking Talonflame for U-turn and surviving +2 brave bird to OHKO with scald after recoil if Talon uses SD on the switch. R-W and Talonflame were the most-used OU pokemon in December. Gastrodon also checks popular pokemon like Heatran, Scizor, Tyranitar, etc. and has stealth rock resistance.
Gardevoir is still the strongest special fairy attacker with STAB Psyshock and access to Pixilate Hyper Voice. With Trace, both variants of Gardevoir can abuse lightningrod, storm drain, water absorb, and flash fire as well as scarfed taking advantage of sheer force, intimidate, multiscale, natural cure, sturdy, recover, and weather abilities like sand rush. Hyper Voice hits hard enough that most coverage moves (@ 80 BP) are only useful against opponents who are 4x weak or 2x weak while resisting both STABs--you can use shadow ball if your team has Aegislash trouble or focus blast for other steel types, its 4mss isn't really that bad anymore. Mega-Gardevoir is one of the hardest-hitting Calm Mind users out there.
Gastrodon can stand up to as many threats as Rotom-W with better recovery, not to mention checking or countering R-W itself with immunity to hydro pump and volt switch and an easy time outstalling pain split. Gastrodon is much better paired with Tyranitar than R-W for obvious reasons, also checking Talonflame for U-turn and surviving +2 brave bird to OHKO with scald after recoil if Talon uses SD on the switch. R-W and Talonflame were the most-used OU pokemon in December. Gastrodon also checks popular pokemon like Heatran, Scizor, Tyranitar, etc. and has stealth rock resistance.
Gardevoir is still the strongest special fairy attacker with STAB Psyshock and access to Pixilate Hyper Voice. With Trace, both variants of Gardevoir can abuse lightningrod, storm drain, water absorb, and flash fire as well as scarfed taking advantage of sheer force, intimidate, multiscale, natural cure, sturdy, recover, and weather abilities like sand rush. Hyper Voice hits hard enough that most coverage moves (@ 80 BP) are only useful against opponents who are 4x weak or 2x weak while resisting both STABs--you can use shadow ball if your team has Aegislash trouble or focus blast for other steel types, its 4mss isn't really that bad anymore. Mega-Gardevoir is one of the hardest-hitting Calm Mind users out there.
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By this logic there would be no such thing as a counter. The fact that keldeo cant reliably deal with Mven on it's own shows that it is a counter. Keldeo is a great pokemon, and was an absolute monster last gen in the rain, but with the rain nerf its power was nerfed along with it. I'm not saying Keldeo is worthless now, but I most certainly would not agree with it being an A+ or even A level pokemon. More at a B or B+. However if i had to I could settle for A I guess.
Jolteon isn't getting a rank because it isn't getting an OU analysis.
Anyway I would like to propose Kyurem-B to A (EDIT: A+) Rank. This thing is an absolute monster of a wallbreaker, and its great bulk allows it to take hits and dish out more against offense. Kyube is one dragon type who hasn't really lost much of anything with the introduction of the Fairy type, as most of its best sets do not involve the use of choice items or outrage, and it has plenty of powerful coverage options to deal with them.
With Teravolt Earth Power, he becomes a useful check to Rotom-W - switch in on Hydro Pump, Earth Power does 60-70 % while Rotom-W uses Will-o-Wisp. While Kyube doesn't appreciate burn, he can actually 2 or 3HKO non-defensive pokemon with dragon claw while burned, so he still isn't exactly easy to switch into, especially since he also has access to special STAB in Ice Beam.
Another big advantage of Teravolt is that Kyube is one of the few things that can hit Mega-Venusaur super effectively.
4 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 190-226 (52.1 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
EDIT also, max special attack Kyube can OHKO physically defensive Mega-Venusaur
That's pretty impressive considering the number of things that can 2HKO Mega Venusaur from full health (practically zero).
He's just in general a terror to switch into and bulky enough to take a lot of punishment. I looked at the definition of A rank, but it didn't have anything that really applied to wallbreakers - Kyube can't sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, that's not his job - so I can't use that as evidence. Whatever the borderline for a wallbreaker to make A+ rank, I'm almost positive Kyube fulfills it.
EDIT 2 well I look like an idiot now. It's already A rank. For some reason I thought it was B. Since I made such a nice long post, you can consider it to be an argument for A+ instead.
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dude its already a rank
Alakazaam needs a rank. I can't believe M-Alakazaam gets a rank, but the normal form doesn't. M-Alakazaam is one of the few mega pokemon that does NOT outclass his original form. While not as strong or as fast as M-Alakazaam, Alakazaam still has a great speed and sp.atk stat. What makes him so special over his mega evolution is that Alakazaam has magic guard. Slap on a focus sash and Alakazaam becomes an excellent emergency revenge killer, allowing him to stop the likes of a dragonite w/ +3 (+1 from dragon dance and +2 from weakness policy) as so long as his sash is intact. Thanks to Magic Guard, Alakazaam is completely unfazed by 3 of the 4 entry hazards in the game along with out nuisances like leech seed. In this new generation, the rise of priority moves has really hurt Alakazaam, making it harder for him to preserve his focus sash, but he still has a well-defined niche that allows him to stop any kind of sweeper once they've set up. While this niche may be somewhat shared with by Talonflame, Alakazaam has some edges over Talonflame. Talonflame may be even faster than Alakazaam and packs priority brave bird, but Talonflame also needs rapid spin support to get rid of rocks. With rocks on the field, Talonflame loses half of his health. Talonflame also can't stop sweepers if they pack extremespeed. While I won't argue that Talonflame is ultimately still better than Alakazaam, I believe he still has a place in OU.
I nominate Alakazaam for B rank.
I nominate Alakazaam for B rank.
Its not ''Mega Alakazam'' its Alakazam (Mega), both counting as the same thing, therefore its already ranked.
So does that mean Manectric AND Mega Manetric both belong in B rank?
Its not about which forme deserves the rank, theyre being ranked as one singular entity since you need to send in the base forme first in order to transform. Of course this is extremely inconsistent since other mons like venusaur and lucario arent following this but it will probably be fixed later.
I think it's already been made clear that the Mega-pokemon would be ranked as separate entities from their base forms. Also notice how Gyraados (base form) and Gyarados (Mega) have their own ranking (both of them being in A rank).
Thats why i said its inconsistent. You have Alakazam (Mega) then you scroll and theres Mega Venusaur, then theres Gyarados (Base Form). Until a consistent format is chosen its going to stay confusing, but the fact is that alakazam and mega alakazam are already ranked.
There's also "Mega Medicham" and "Manectric (Mega)" when neither of their base forms are useful in OU.
On a bit of an off topic note, I'm surprised Starmie hasn't been added to the list yet. While it did get somewhat worse this gen with having to compete with Greninja in the role of a fast special attacker and with Excadrill and the defoggers with the hazard removing job, Starmie is still a pretty decent Pokemon. Its great Speed, good coverage, and access to Recover still make it a good choice for an offensive spinner, thanks to Analytic and Hydro Pump+BoltBeam coverage allowing it to deal hefty damage and be able to pull off a spin. In general Starmie still poses an offensive threat, and Recover and Scald also make it a decent choice for a defensive spinner despite its somewhat lackluster bulk and exploitable weaknesses to common moves in the meta. Overall though, Starmie still packs a punch and is still pretty decent at spinning. For these reasons I'm suggesting Starmie for B Rank.
I think you're making it more confusing. "Alakazaam (Mega)" means (to my interpretation) that the ranking is only applicable to the Mega form of Alakazaam. You say that it means that the ranking is applicable to both the mega and base form. If we go by your interpretation, then it becomes inconsistent to have Gyarados (base form) and Gyarados (mega) listed. The format is already inconsistent in that they already listed other mega pokemon as "Mega Venusaur" while other mega pokemon are labeled as "Manectric (Mega)", but this inconsistency should be understood that they only mean the mega form of the pokemon and not the base form of them.
Mega Alakazaam has a rank. Base Alakazaam does not have a rank. I also think whatever rank Alakazaam has, Mega Alakazaam should be slightly lower.
Nominating Mega Charizard Y for A+ Rank!
Mega Charizard Y has to be one of the best wall breakers alongside Landorus-Incarnate residing in OU at the moment. Having access to Drought while boasting a beastly 104 Attack and 159 Special Attack stat, very few things can safely switch in on Mega Charizard Y without taking massive amounts of damage.
Merits:
- As mentioned earlier, access to Drought places Mega Charizard Y in a whole different class from other wall breakers, namely Landorus-Incarnate. Eliminating damaging weather conditions, weakening Water-Type moves and powering up its Fire-Type STAB moves, Drought is an absolute godsend for this Pokemon
- Mega Charizard Y has a pretty diverse movepool that provides unpredictability. Many Charizard Y's mandatorily run Fire Blast and Solar Beam as they are STAB and coverage moves, respectively. Earthquake also finds itself as a solid coverage move because it eliminates Heatran, one of Mega Charizard's Y most common switch-ins for Fire Blast or Solar Beam. The final slot can go to a variety of moves. Dragon Pulse is to mainly hit Dragonite, Salamence, Garchomp and Lati@s (Goodra is too bulky). Focus Punch is hard to use but with some prediction, Focus Punch allows Mega Charizard Y to cripple Blissey, Chansey, Tyranitar and Heatran. Roost provides Mega Charizard Y with longevity as with it's substantial base 115 Special Defense, Roost is a viable option. Ancient Power allows Mega Charizard Y to handle opposing Charizard formes and Talonflame.
- Similar to Landorus-Incarnate, Mega Charizard Y has very switch-ins. Excluding the premier walls of OU (Blissey, Chansey and Goodra, three Pokemon who are not exceedingly common anyways), the entire OU tier struggles to switch-in without taking hefty amounts of damage. Here are some calculations!
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Sun: 148-175 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 288-340 (95 - 112.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 284-336 (73.5 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 284-336 (87.6 - 103.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias in Sun: 124-147 (41.1 - 48.8%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 172-204 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T in Sun: 375-442 (98.1 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar: 320-380 (79.2 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Excadrill for A+ Rank!
- Arguably the best Rapid Spinner due to its efficiency
- Access to Stealth Rock ; not many Pokemon can boast of being able to set hazards and provide hazard control
- Sky high base 135 Attack makes him an offensive threat
- Two amazing abilities in Mold Breaker and Sand Rush
- Boasts a great typing that provides an immunity to Poison and Electric Moves while having a plethora of resistances
- Diversity is definitely capable of describing Excadrill. From Assault Vest to Choice Scarf, Excadrill is far from being short on options
- Swords Dance allows Excadrill to break holes and sometimes sweep in rare scenarios
I have yet to receive some legitimate reasons as to why these two Pokemon should not deserve the A+ Rank. They are arguably the best in each of their respective roles and I see no reason as to why they should not receive a higher nomination.
I also agree with ScraftyIsTheBest regarding Starmie being placed into B-Rank.
It's no longer the best spinner by any means but it is definitely a solid offensive Pokemon that can act as a great switch-in to many common OU Pokemon.
I think then we need to clarify which base forms need recognition separate from their mega. Non-seperated ranks would be for:
A.) Pokemon not viable if not a mega and
B.) Pokemon who have a mega that performs roughly the same role to the same effectiveness.
The pokemon that do not deserve mention outside of a mega would be Banette, manectric, mawile, medicham, Abomasnow, aggron, ampharos, charizard, houndoom, absol, blastoise, and pinsir.
Aerodactyl is the only pokemon I can think of that has a too-similar role to his mega.
The pokemon that deserve outside mention are:
Lucario (simply because it is less viable but still effective),
Heracross (performs a completely different role outside of a mega, discussing viability of his use is still in the air, though),
gyarados (the different type, the abilities, and the resttalk that mega dos doesn't run but is completely viable on gyara),
scizor (tech band non-mega, generally defensive defog mega [or just SD]),
Venusaur (He could fall under too similar, but he still has the non-mega sun-sweeper set)
garchomp (since wallbreaker/sweeper differences), and
alakazam (revenge killer nonmega, sweeper mega).
A.) Pokemon not viable if not a mega and
B.) Pokemon who have a mega that performs roughly the same role to the same effectiveness.
The pokemon that do not deserve mention outside of a mega would be Banette, manectric, mawile, medicham, Abomasnow, aggron, ampharos, charizard, houndoom, absol, blastoise, and pinsir.
Aerodactyl is the only pokemon I can think of that has a too-similar role to his mega.
The pokemon that deserve outside mention are:
Lucario (simply because it is less viable but still effective),
Heracross (performs a completely different role outside of a mega, discussing viability of his use is still in the air, though),
gyarados (the different type, the abilities, and the resttalk that mega dos doesn't run but is completely viable on gyara),
scizor (tech band non-mega, generally defensive defog mega [or just SD]),
Venusaur (He could fall under too similar, but he still has the non-mega sun-sweeper set)
garchomp (since wallbreaker/sweeper differences), and
alakazam (revenge killer nonmega, sweeper mega).
Static can be used on a Defog set to some effectiveness, but Defog isn't Zapdos's best set, which is what I have been trying to make clear.
Just give the mega tag only to pokemons that require mega to be viable and all inconsistency problems disappear:
Manectric(Mega)
Mawile(Mega)
Charizard(Mega)
Aggron(Mega)
Medicham(Mega)
Ampharos(Mega)
Absol(Mega)
Pinsir(Mega)
Blastoise(Mega)
Houndoom(Mega)
Everything else is completely viable without a mega set and doesnt need tags.
Manectric(Mega)
Mawile(Mega)
Charizard(Mega)
Aggron(Mega)
Medicham(Mega)
Ampharos(Mega)
Absol(Mega)
Pinsir(Mega)
Blastoise(Mega)
Houndoom(Mega)
Everything else is completely viable without a mega set and doesnt need tags.
How would you deal with the different charizard forms? Shouldn't we be able to tier them differently?
EDIT Primary, I think most likely you recieved no response because just about everyone agrees with you - those are both probably solid A+ rank pokemon. Now we just need to wait for the OP to be updated.
That or we were just distracted by other stuff.
What makes charizard so threatening is not just that charizard y can ko everything aside from 4 pokemons or that charizard x can easily sweep after a single boost. What truly makes it such a top threat and imo S rank worthy (more on this later) is that you have absolutely no idea what mega stone charizard is using. Even if you see it in the preview theres no way to know whether its x or y until it makes its move, as such its extremely hard to plan a counter play to it when you dont know what checks you must keep alive to beat it. Its imo unfair to rank them separately when the entire point of charizard revolves around the surprise factor.
*grits teeth* we had this discussion in the first 10 pages of this post....
It doesn't matter that Zapdos can use heatwave on lucario, its still 2HKO'd by Lucario if stealth rock is on the field or if its even a little damaged. Heatwave is pathetically weak, has a rare side effect, and every team, even HO, will have something Lucario can reliably switch into. The reason lava plume and scald are so annoying is because they are typically stab on the pokemon they're used on, and more importantly, have decent chances of their side effects occurring. Honestly don't know why I posted the Aegislash set, as I agree its not its best one. I have seen it before though. Besides that, heat wave isn't going to do a whole lot to Aegislash, and even if it does have to switch out, it can do so easily. Genesect can have a SpA boost if its switches in on something like garchomp, landorus, or gliscor. In this case zapdos cannot come in as it will be 2HKO'd.
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Just want to clarify. Is Starmie being suggested for B or B-?
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Bringing this back up again as Suicune have already gotten its OU analysis yet its not ranked atm. After some playtesting, I can safely say that Suicune is suited somewhere in B.
On the issue of megas and their rankings:
Megas are more of a variant of their base forms rather than separate pokemon. They aren't like forms of Rotom, which exist as separate entities. When you see a Rotom in team preview, you know right away what form it is, because you can SEE it in that form, and it will be in the form the entire match. When you see a Gyarados in team preview, you don't actually know if it will mega evolve or not until your opponent sends it in and does so. When you see a Charizard in team preview, you don't know if it will be X or Y, because when you see it in team preview, you don't see either of those; you see a normal Charizard.
"But they play differently from their base forms!"
Yeah, but this also applies to several non-mega pokemon as well. For example, Genesect. It has many viable sets, such as choice scarf, choice band, and shift gear, all of which play differently, and you don't know which one it is until it actually comes out and starts doing its thing. The same thing applies to megas, you don't know whether that Tyranitar is going to mega evolve and start dragon dancing or simply set up stealth rock until it actually does so.
"But they have different stats and, in some cases, different typing and abilities from their base forms!"
Yeah, but that also applies to Meloetta, which also has two separate forms with different typing and stats. However, it's forms were not tiered separately in last gen's UU viability rankings because they cannot exist separately from one another; you cannot enter battle with it in pirouette form, you have to bring it in in aria form and transform mid-match. If you see one in team preview, you don't actually know if it's going to do that or not. Although the mechanics are not the same, the same thing applies here; assuming a pokemon is viable without its mega, you don't know if it's going to mega evolve or not, because again, in team preview, all you see is the base form.
tl;dr Megas should not be ranked separately from their base forms, period.
Megas are more of a variant of their base forms rather than separate pokemon. They aren't like forms of Rotom, which exist as separate entities. When you see a Rotom in team preview, you know right away what form it is, because you can SEE it in that form, and it will be in the form the entire match. When you see a Gyarados in team preview, you don't actually know if it will mega evolve or not until your opponent sends it in and does so. When you see a Charizard in team preview, you don't know if it will be X or Y, because when you see it in team preview, you don't see either of those; you see a normal Charizard.
"But they play differently from their base forms!"
Yeah, but this also applies to several non-mega pokemon as well. For example, Genesect. It has many viable sets, such as choice scarf, choice band, and shift gear, all of which play differently, and you don't know which one it is until it actually comes out and starts doing its thing. The same thing applies to megas, you don't know whether that Tyranitar is going to mega evolve and start dragon dancing or simply set up stealth rock until it actually does so.
"But they have different stats and, in some cases, different typing and abilities from their base forms!"
Yeah, but that also applies to Meloetta, which also has two separate forms with different typing and stats. However, it's forms were not tiered separately in last gen's UU viability rankings because they cannot exist separately from one another; you cannot enter battle with it in pirouette form, you have to bring it in in aria form and transform mid-match. If you see one in team preview, you don't actually know if it's going to do that or not. Although the mechanics are not the same, the same thing applies here; assuming a pokemon is viable without its mega, you don't know if it's going to mega evolve or not, because again, in team preview, all you see is the base form.
tl;dr Megas should not be ranked separately from their base forms, period.
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